All Episodes Discussion

[heebiejeebie]

I had thought about this, and the only reason I didn't really lend it much credit was because two of the eliminated suspects were supposedly the last two people to see her alive at the time clock that morning, unless of course they were in on it and lied, but that doesn't really make much sense. 

 

My bad.  I hate watching it online in the little segments because I then tend to read the articles in tandem.  I mistakenly thought the two eyewitnesses were the ones the defense put forth as only seeing a person across the warehouse going toward the time cards and couldn't verify the time or really even the identity.  i still think the investigation was fitting the facts to the story they wanted and not letting the facts speak on their own.

 

I also think something was up by the fact the police kept saying he wasn't on their radar at first.  Yet then the prosecutors talk about how all his co-workers thought he was acting odd.  Really?  In a brutal murder investigation wouldn't this odd have been mentioned right way?  I have to wonder how much of the strangeness is applied hindsight.  Like people who see a plane crash and swear they saw fire as the plane descends even though investigators determine no such thing.  I'm not sure what my level of clarity would be if I was just a co worker let alone someone who was treated as a person of interest and then the suspect.  There are many times i think I did something I do every single day but not in the order I normally do.  But looking back I might think I did.  Especially when the drama of a dead body imposes itself on your emotions and thoughts.

 

i think the janitor is a bit weird, he lacks certain social polishing and awareness  and likely was shady at least once in how he and his wife were working and getting paid.  I still don't think he could have carried out the whole clean crime scene by himself and I still have an issue was to why the investigators followed certain a before b inference as sole fact without looking at the variables.

[Jpxfactor]

I really don't think they had enough evidence to convict the janitor. I would look a little closer at the husband who was in debt and received the 700 thousand insurance payment.

[Lura]

I only saw a few minutes of tonight's (Thanksgiving) episode, but I was too worked up to watch it just before going to bed!!  lol  Now, of course, I'm wondering what the whole story was and how the girl ever got out of the mountains alive!  Did anyone else watch it?  I was amazed that she could be in such a remote place after her plane crashed and could live to tell about it.

[editorgrrl]

Sounds like "Into the Wild." You can watch for free (with commercials) at http://www.nbcnews.com/watch/dateline/into-the-wild-part-1-321815107895

More than anything McKenzie Morgan wanted to learn how to fly. It was a family tradition after all: great-grandfather, grandfather, uncles were all pilots. So in August 2013 she took a final solo flight before getting her pilot's license. All seemed well, until she didn't land at her appointed time. McKenzie Morgan and her Cessna 172 had vanished.

[photo fox]

A well known lawyer from a southern town is found brutally murdered, with his girlfriend bound by duct tape, and as the authorities put together a list of potential leads, the primary suspect has a surprising connection to the victim.

[LakeGal]

I suspected the girlfriend from the very beginning.  It is more rare when it isn't the romantic partner.  Laughing about a Playboy photo right after the murder was really out of place.  Taking her back to act out what happened was also a good way to catch her in lies.  But considering her son had to remind her how her hands were taped is also very telling.

[Lura]

Editorgrrl, thank you so much for your reply and a link!  The show's description sounds like we're talking about the same show.  I searched the web, but all I could find were episodes coming up.  I went to TV Guide, but without knowing the name of the show, I couldn't find the episode.  I'm grateful for your help.

[ElleBee]

I suspected the girlfriend from the very beginning.  It is more rare when it isn't the romantic partner.  Laughing about a Playboy photo right after the murder was really out of place.  Taking her back to act out what happened was also a good way to catch her in lies.  But considering her son had to remind her how her hands were taped is also very telling.

 

I agree--she definitely didn't have the acting chops to pull off the bereaved girlfriend act. She also didn't seem very smart about planning. Like with the overly loose duct tape--I'm no duct tape expert but that stuff is strong and I'd think it would have to be submerged in water for a while before there would be considerable loosening. And why would some attacker say "money, money" and then leave almost $500 at the scene? But the dumbest part was not getting herself wet and dirty enough, despite supposedly being forced down to the ground on a rainy, muddy day. The only thing that threw me initially was that they weren't married, so she didn't seem to have a financial motive, but then it came out that she was included in the will and about to be an ex-girlfriend, and it all made sense.

 

I know her son supposedly had an air-tight alibi fixing the ex-cop's PC but I'm still somewhat suspicious of him, especially after he knew the details of what had happened better than his mother. I wonder what type of "ex-cop" it was, ie. was he retired/voluntarily left the force, or ex- for other reasons? (Clearly the detectives pursued that angle already but I just can't shake the feeling that the son was somehow involved.)

[ari333]

Wow, the woman was guilty from the get-go when she was whining in the police chair with duct tape on her head and a blanket around her. Was the duct tape necessary? to leave it on her like that? The playboy crack gave me the willies. The son is totally in on it, but IDK who they paid to give him an "Airtight" alibi. And how con-veeeen-ient that it was an ex cop that he just happened to be with that night? Also, per the granddaughter, the son knew the story better than Julia. Yikes. 

 

And all her crap about the sex life was so gag worthy. Not because an older couple cant have a great sex life b/c they totally can, but her rendition of the story just rang like so much bullshit to me.

Edited November 29, 2014 by ari333

[applecrisp]

I had seen this on another show and I thought the son was in on it.  Like Ellebbe I still think he was involved.

[mbutterfly]

Does anyone remember an episode from years ago about the JonBenet Ramsey murder? I vividly remember a cop/detective who worked on the case saying that she knew who did it and it was someone in that house that night, but that she would not say who it was because she felt that she was disrespected during the investigation. Does anyone remember this??? Or am I crazy, because I can't find the episode online! 

I probably watched it because I tried to watch everything about JonBenet. We have a friend who worked for the Boulder police department at the time and there was surely a lot of in-fighting. Sadly. 

[editorgrrl]

According to Google, there was a 1999 episode called "Jon-Benet Ramsey Media," but you're probably looking for season 15, episode 65, "Who Killed Jon Benet?" which aired August 29, 2006.

[zxy556575]

C'mon, people! If your story is that XYZ happened, then you gotta make XYZ happen.

 

"He dragged me 50 feet." But no drag marks and no dirt on you.

"The door was closed." But there's blood splatter outside the door.

"She shot herself." But no gunshot residue on her.

"The intruder shot/stabbled/hit me." But only barely, and always in the fleshy part of the upper arm.

[Hava]

According to Google, there was a 1999 episode called "Jon-Benet Ramsey Media," but you're probably looking for season 15, episode 65, "Who Killed Jon Benet?" which aired August 29, 2006.

 

 

Wow. Thank you so much. I'm going to look into those. Does anyone know how I can read the transcripts of old episodes online?

[Lura]

After about five years, I'm still trying to find the episode in which two creepy, elderly women in L.A. took in homeless men and then murdered them for their insurance money.  An insurance investigator noticed a discrepancy in a filing and helped the LAPD solve the case.  The women were so unattractive that they actually looked evil.  I watched it once online, but it seems as if it's no longer listed, and I don't know the name of the episode.  I'd be so happy just to watch that insurance investigator solve the puzzle one more time.  I can still see that poor homeless man, blocked in an alley, and the women's car mowing him down. 

Edited November 30, 2014 by Lura

[editorgrrl]

Google says "With Friends Like These" from March 6, 2009: http://www.nbcnews.com/video/dateline/29554448

Transcript: http://www.nbcnews.com/id/29469637/ns/dateline_nbc-crime_reports/t/friends-these/

Edited November 30, 2014 by editorgrrl

[cathy7304]

Did anyone notice in her statement to the police she said the man put tape over her eyes? But when she kept talking she said that she saw the headlights of her boyfriend's car.

[applecrisp]

C'mon, people! If your story is that XYZ happened, then you gotta make XYZ happen.

 

"He dragged me 50 feet." But no drag marks and no dirt on you.

"The door was closed." But there's blood splatter outside the door.

"She shot herself." But no gunshot residue on her.

"The intruder shot/stabbled/hit me." But only barely, and always in the fleshy part of the upper arm.

At TWoP , in the Snapped thread there was a whole list of Dos and Don'ts.   One biggie was the hysterical crying with no tears.  And of course a cohesive story. 

 

She excelled at getting a hit man who doesn't spill the beans, that hasn't happened for a long time.

[ari333]

Did anyone notice in her statement to the police she said the man put tape over her eyes? But when she kept talking she said that she saw the headlights of her boyfriend's car.

omg I missed that ! Great catch. Wow.

And of course, the mystery man had an accent, dont-cha-know?

[daughtersofanarchy]

If she is as scatterbrained as she seemed to be, maybe her son could have planned the whole thing out for her and told her exactly what to do and what to say to the police, and, meanwhile he sets up a solid alibi for himself.  But she was just too dippy to do everything right.  Unfortunately, that doesn't explain what happened to the weapon.

[Lura]

That's it, Editorgrrl.  Thank you.  I wish the video were still available.

[auntjess]

In the original 911 call, she says she was robbed, but doesn't mention him at all.

I was surprised that they didn't offer her a plea deal, if she'd tell them who the triggerman was.

I wonder if it's too late, after she's already sentenced.

Did anyone else wonder if it could have been the big woman tenant, who was hired to kill him?

Edited December 4, 2014 by auntjess

[blubld43]

Does anyone remember the episode about Mary Hill, in Orlando?  She was the woman driving her daughter and two neighbor children somewhere; she crashed and the accident killed both her daughter and one of the neighbor children.

It's interesting to me especially because I was in the hospital with Mary after the accident.  She told us that the accident was due to the fact that she was on a lot of prescription drugs.

She was later charged and convicted of the two deaths; in court her attorney claimed that her brakes malfunctioned.  I knew what she had said immediately after the accident and there was NO mention of brake failure.  I wrote to the Mom of the girl killed and told her what Mary had said after the accident; I wished I had known about the trial while it was going on.

[ButterQueen]

I'm watching the one now where married Kandi is having an affair with her younger, married boss. Her husband kills the young man in Walgreens parking lot. Man, I couldn't stand that Kandi and the married boss left a young wife with 5 small children. Of course, Kandi changed her story at trial and tried to say her husband did it in self defense, She was such a scum! My guide is out, so I do not know the name of the episode.

I just googled it. It was Deadly Desire from 2013,

[JudyObscure]

No Dateline tonight, just an animated Christmas thing.

 

  Don't they understand that in this season of peace, goodwill and unrelenting cheer we need a little murder?

[Lovecat]

No Dateline tonight, just an animated Christmas thing.

 

  Don't they understand that in this season of peace, goodwill and unrelenting cheer we need a little murder?

I humbly recommend the Serial podcast.  It's like a Dateline episode on steroids--Episode 10 was just posted yesterday morning.

[editorgrrl]

I humbly recommend the Serial podcast.  It's like a Dateline episode on steroids—Episode 10 was just posted yesterday morning.

I totally agree. Binge-listen to all ten episodes, then come talk about it at Forums > Off-Topic > Online > Serial!

 

Serial is a podcast from the creators of This American Life. One true crime story, told over 12 weeks, hosted by Sarah Koenig.

It's Baltimore, 1999. Hae Min Lee, a popular high-school senior, disappears after school one day. Six weeks later detectives arrest her classmate and ex-boyfriend, Adnan Syed, for her murder. He says he's innocent—though he can't exactly remember what he was doing on that January afternoon. But someone can. A classmate at Woodlawn High School says she knows where Adnan was. The trouble is, she’s nowhere to be found.

[druzy]

I'm watching the one now where married Kandi is having an affair with her younger, married boss. Her husband kills the young man in Walgreens parking lot. Man, I couldn't stand that Kandi and the married boss left a young wife with 5 small children. Of course, Kandi changed her story at trial and tried to say her husband did it in self defense, She was such a scum! My guide is out, so I do not know the name of the episode.

I just googled it. It was Deadly Desire from 2013,

I couldn't stand that lying face Kandi either. She was so gross inside and out and the young man's wife was so beautiful. 

[Adamfinkster]

Haunting. Thank you for the good watch. Can't believe the skinnier girl at the end forgot her name, she wouldnt even read her apologie.

[photo fox]

A mother's intuition leads campus police in Western New York to a terrible discovery in a college residence.

[photo fox]

The vanishing of a young mother in the Pacific Northwest leaves a family and law enforcement puzzled for years. Correspondent: Dennis Murphy.

[LakeGal]

The killer really had a scary look to him. I thought they were going to say the dead girl had so much blood in her hair that it looked dark. Instead they said she had dyed her hair brown recently. I was surprised the cops that stopped them on the street didn't mention she had brown hair.

[ChristmasJones]

This one seemed anticlimactic - given that the killer ended up turning himself in.

 

But ... definitely scary to think that these seemingly normal looking college age kids can end up killing their girlfriends - there was another case that was on Dateline or 48 Hours not too long ago with a very similar case

[emma675]

I'll be honest, I hate the episodes where they don't find the body. It's just so frustrating for me as a viewer and I can't even imagine how horrible it is for families.

[applecrisp]

I couldn't help but think she had poor taste in men.  She was an attractive woman.  Maybe because it was a small town.

 

Her daughters seemed lovely, did they really have much negative to say about the killer/ ex.?

[LakeGal]

It did seem like a lot of men liked her.  But it was odd that she separated from her husband so shortly after marrying him.  Of course later we heard he became violent.  But they did not tell us that earlier. 

[RedheadZombie]

I couldn't help but think she had poor taste in men.  She was an attractive woman.  Maybe because it was a small town.

 

Her daughters seemed lovely, did they really have much negative to say about the killer/ ex.?

 

She had terrible taste in men.  Her sons looked close enough in age to be twins, but they visited their "fathers" so they are from different marriages.  She certainly didn't deserve to be killed, but she fell in and out of love in a split second.  The one who supposedly killed her - she moved him in within two months, and left him with plans to divorce after one month of marriage.  She was only forty yet her two daughters were old enough to live on their own and looked like they were as old as she was.  Her friend said she would have had babies every year if she could have.  I wonder if her history of quickly falling in love was her desire to have more children.

[RedheadZombie]

I think it's frightening that a girl can be beaten to death in her dorm room, and nobody hears anything but a couple of thumps.  I've lived in a dorm - you hear everything.

[jenkait]

I find Dateline always uses whimsical descriptions to describe stories that are just...sad.  Single mom meets lying ex-con, they get married and then divorced within a month...that's what happened here.  Of course Dateline is really doing it for the sake of storytelling, and I guess if someone has met a tragedy, why not describe the event in terms that are easier for the family to accept, right?  Obviously Rachael was a much-loved person, by both her family and friends.  It was just a sad story.

 

I knew the ex-husband did it as soon as it said he was receiving the crank calls, too.  Sure...because that happens. 

 

As a total aside: I couldn't stop laughing when they said about Rachael, "She went to buy a computer, but didn't find what she wanted so she came back with beer."  I think I must be missing something there.  Also, "the publically pious person who prayed over his pancakes" was pretty funny, too.

Edited January 10, 2015 by jenkait

[ChristmasJones]

There wasn't much substance to this case. I find myself not able to believe that the friend watched him strangle his wife but then he just went along to dump the body. WHO does that????? I know there are people out there who do that... but its just so hard to get your mind around it- especially when this was two grown men and no guns were involved. I can't help but be skeptical about the friend.

 

Logic seems to  lead to the conclusion that the ex-husband did it- I just wish there was more detail about their relationship leading up to the night of the murder.

[walnutqueen]

I didn't believe the friend's story, either.  I actually think the pact to kill each other's wives makes as much sense as anything else, but like so many times, Dateline failed to tell a cohesive story.

[ChristmasJones]

When a loving mother is found brutally stabbed to death, police quickly determine who held the knife. But was it part of a cold-blooded conspiracy?

[Lizzing]

Totally shallow, and not at all related to the case, but I was dying to know who the woman was crocheting behind Kevin at the trial.  It seemed sooo Madame Defarge, but with a crochet hook instead of knitting needles.

 

As to the murder, I'm not sure I can 100% buy Sabrina's account of events, because there had to be some serious rage to bend the blade of the bread knife.  I have a bread knife (not the same kind, so there's allowances for different types), but that sucker would need some almighty force to be bent, ergo rage.  OTOH, why did Kevin cash in the life insurance policies within 8 HOURS of Lisa's death?  Yeah, sure, he had kids to raise, but he had a job and they weren't portrayed to be falling off a financial cliff within 8 hours. In the end, I think the right verdict was reached, albeit with bad evidence.

[walnutqueen]

Ho Hum, another potentially good story told by Dateline's apparent inability to do so.  Or perhaps I was just in a funk or distracted?  Whatever, this one didn't thrill me.

 

And I agree about the bent knife, because who could ever penetrate a living being with a sharp object without some sort of fucked up rage or emotion going on in their twisted excuse for a brain?

[tobeannounced]

Lizzing, I love to crochet so that lady caught my eye too - lol.  And for such an unusual story, this show did not have me on the edge of my seat at all.

[jenkait]

I can't believe they interviewed Sabrina.  After she stabbed someone 178 times, I frankly don't care what she's been through and I don't even want to listen to her.

 

The evidence for the husband's involvement wasn't really strong, but it probably would've been enough to sway me...mostly because I think he was a huge asshole, so maybe it's best I wasn't on that jury.  I think he definitely was involved with Sabrina.

 

I didn't buy how Sabrina said it went down, in any case...that they considered a hitman, they considered using a gun, and then decided on...Sabrina using a breadknife and just hanging around being caught by police?

 

One thing did make me feel sad for Sabrina, at least a little/at first.  Lisa was apparently upset at how close Sabrina was getting to 3-year-old Hayley, was actling like her mom, etc.  OK that would freak me out too, but at first did Sabrina just try to get love and affection from the easiest target in the family?

[applecrisp]

When Sabrina was on cross, I felt at first she was sobbing and then when the lawyer questioned her more she seemed fine and a little defiant.   This was not a satisfying case because I am not sure about the outcome. 

 

Noticed crochet lady too.

[heebiejeebie]

I'm not sure of the verdict either.  The show tends to ignore or gloss over details so they get to tell a story that has a suspenseful reveal.  So maybe there was more about the husband than we saw that lent to his guilt.

 

I think he was a crappy husband.  I think he probably was involved with the foster daughter.  Maybe not physical but it went beyond any "father - daughter" relationship.  Flirting and petting at the minimum I suspect. 

 

I'm guessing he had a totally inappropriate relationship with the foster daughter that developed into a us versus her mentality with both (her being the murdered wife).  I wonder if the husband had reached the point he said aloud how perfect their life would be without the wife.  I'm not sure I believe that he masterminded the whole thing.  Or even at all.  From the amount of rage involved in the murder, the foster daughter certainly had it in her to commit the crime on her own.

 

I just have a hard time thinking the husband thought he could convince the foster daughter to stab his wife to death just so he would be free and get the money.  I think you can have a husband who falls out with his wife and have a teen who has no feelings for the wife except anger and resentment or even hate pick that up and act on it thinking she is going to "fix" the situation to her liking.

 

I wondered at first if the wife found the two of them together and that was why both decided she had to go.  But, while I missed a segment that won't load, I never heard that in the trial.  And I would think that would have been introduced since they were trying to paint him as the mastermind who lead the foster daughter to being the murderer.  Wouldn't that have played into his motive to do so if he was raping (she is a foster daughter.  don't care if she agrees, it is rape) the girl and the wife knew? 

 

What I did think telling was the savagery involved in the stabbing. To me that not only says rage and hate but it also says the murderer might have been caught up in a pyschosis of detruction.  Not just killing her but removing her existence as completely as possible. Cutting the wife out in every way so she could take the woman's place. 

 

Again.  I do think the husband was a creep who seemed to revel in the largesse his wife afforded him.  I just don't think that alone is an indictment that deserves a life sentence.  And the foster daughter's word is hardly enough.  I've seen too many idiots who lose a spouse or parent or even a child who have nothing to do with the death still go nuts with money.  Sometimes it is simply the way they express their grief.  Other times it is simply they are greedy assholes.  But it doesn't make them murderers.  I can't help but wonder if his guilt bought into the bad adult mitigation which people can deal with better than the idea a foster "child" can stab her mother as many times as she did. 

[renatae]

I've just watched "12 Minutes on Elm Street" about the man who supposedly lured two innocent, All American, fun loving teens into his home so he could murder them, malice aforethought.

 

There was a case in England similar to this. Thugs had invaded a man's home several times over several years, stealing valuable items each time. They were career burglars and ne'er do wells. Finally, one night, when they once again broke in, he was prepared and shot at them, killing one and I think wounding another of the three. He was found guilty of "lying in wait." Because he had a gun, and left his house unlit, so the thugs thought he wasn't at home. He received a harsh sentence and the "victims" and families went on to sue him for injury and wrongful death and won. Later, his sentence was shortened on appeal, I believe. I thought that could never happen here.

 

I was wrong. The real victim in this case, a Mr. Smith, was found guilty of first degree murder of the two teens and sentenced to life in prison. For what? Parking his truck away from his home so people would think he was away from home. Entrapment? Did he put a trap door out there on his lawn with a chute that dropped the teens into his home where he could shoot them when they were dumped into his basement? Did he leave a sign out front saying, "Come into my home, free candy inside?" Um, no. Oh, and he made a recording of the events, which showed that he was not regretful that he had killed the teens. There were also statements on the tape that he now felt relieved and was "still shaking."

 

He had video cameras posted outside his home due to the several earlier instances of  break-ins. In one of the break-ins, a couple of his guns had been stolen. Neighbors stated that he had been depressed and in fear of further break-ins and he stated that since his guns had been stolen, he feared they would be used against him on any future break-ins. Nick Brady and Halie Kifer were seen "casing" the "joint." Nick was shown peering into windows and circling around the house, apparently trying to ascertain whether the house was indeed unoccupied. His car was parked several blocks away. Apparently, it is OK for thieves to park their cars away from the scene, but not the homeowner. Nick's car contained items from earlier burglaries, I believe some from Mr. Smith's home, and also some from another home in the area. This evidence was ruled inadmissible, as was the fact that Nick had participated in several burglaries, and that Mr. Smith's home had been burglarized several times. One classmate of Nick's told Dateline that Nick was the type of person who bullied other kids at school and shoved them into lockers. Yet, the preponderance of Dateline's presentation chose to make Nick look like just a fun loving kid, rather than a bully who repeatedly burglarized neighbors. As was the prosecutor's tack.

 

When Nick broke into a window, he proceeded to go downstairs to the basement, where Mr. Smith was. The basement contained a living area with bookcases, chairs, carpeting, etc. It seemed to me Nick must have felt there were valuables down there, because he seemed to head straight for the basement. I believe Mr. Smith was in a closet at the time, after hearing Nick break in. He shot Nick three times. Later, Hailie came in, proceeded also down the basement stairs, sounding scared and whispering Nick's name. Mr. Smith shot her six times. He claimed he did not know whether they were armed or not. He made some statements on the tape that he felt he had just gotten rid of some "vermin." Definitely overkill. Definitely, he should not have gone so far. But how can it be stated that simply because he felt justified and relieved, that this was premeditated murder, and not an overzealous defense of one's home? The only way he could have predicted they would invade his home was, not because he "trapped" them into it, but because they had done it before! At the most, I think they should have found him guilty of manslaughter, or possibly second degree murder. But there is no way anyone should be found guilty of premeditated murder when the invaders came into the home of their own free will, in order to victimize someone they thought not to be at home!

 

I've been watching a lot of Investigation Discovery in the last few days, and time and again, I've seen murderers, many of whom first stalked, terrorized, and tortured their victims prior to killing them, get sentences of things like 14-20 years to life, then getting parole in ten or fifteen years. Then there is Mr. Smith, sentenced to life in prison because teens repeatedly invaded his home and he decided to defend himself. Just have to shake my head.

Edited January 17, 2015 by renatae

[jenkait]

Great post, heebiejeebie.

 

It's a good point about the stabbing...I've watched a lot of true crime shows and 178 stab wounds has got to be a record.  That is a crazy amount of anger.  I felt so awful for Megan, on the phone to 911.  She was only 13, I can't imagine.

 

I don't believe the husband masterminded it/told Sabrina exactly what to do; it likely was the kind of "wouldn't it be nice if it were just us?" from the dad that prompted it.  I was really weirded out how he visited her in jail the next day, though.  And the insurance $$...filing within hours does seem awfully suspect/cold.  I'd think within a week would be more normal.  I've never been in that situation, but within hours just seems like a bit much!  What he bought later on doesn't bother me as much, because I agree...people can go nuts with money.

 

I was a little irked at the defense trying to shred the "mandated reporters".  The teacher said he saw the Sabrina sitting on her foster daughter's lap, that's certainly icky...but do you report that?  I don't know.