All Episodes Discussion

[JudyObscure]

7 hours ago, Lsk02 said:

It just seems like such a crazy coincidence that these 2 abhorrent scammers were introduced by their husband/brand new BFF

I know, it always horrifies me when two people do evil things together, because I can get my head around the occasional rare sociopath' but when two of them find each other  it makes me afraid there are people like that everywhere.  I guess you could say they were soulless mates.

[Annber03]

3 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

I know, it always horrifies me when two people do evil things together, because I can get my head around the occasional rare sociopath' but when two of them find each other  it makes me afraid there are people like that everywhere.  I guess you could say they were soulless mates.

Yeah, and then there's the way criminal duos can feed off each other which just adds to the horror. One person alone could, say, commit a few minor crimes, and otherwise not be a serious threat.

But if that person meets someone who's committed much more violent crimes, it's a hell of a lot easier for them to start upping the ante. Maybe they're doing it to try and impress their partner. Maybe, in some cases, they're forced into it. Or, maybe, the violent partner has brought out a side of them that may have always been hidden away, but which they now feel freer to embrace and explore. 

[Melina22]

The scene of them taking turns pushing each other in the wheelchair! They worked like a well-oiled scamming machine. 

I wish there were recordings of their conversations right after meeting each other. How quickly did they discover that they both had exactly the same personality? That neither of them was bothered by conscience? Those conversations must have been absolutely fascinating. 

 

[Crashcourse]

It must have been difficult for the son, Sean, living with that mother and then having to help getting her convicted.  I was glad he was able to meet his biological dad and they now have a relationship.  It was also interesting that he and his ex wife are still friends.

[Melina22]

Poor Sean. First his mother cuts his biological father out of his life, then later she murders the man who took his place as Sean's father. No wonder he called the police on her. 

[Crashcourse]

Duh, it just occurred to me that the first husband, Sean's father, didn't die because he found him.  I corrected my previous post.

[Lsk02]

I thought Keith said the son was adopted by Martha Ann, and she refused to give him any information about his adoption? She isn’t his biological mother, I don’t think, unless I misunderstood something. 

[Crashcourse]

2 minutes ago, Lsk02 said:

I thought Keith said the son was adopted by Martha Ann, and she refused to give him any information about his adoption? She isn’t his biological mother, I don’t think, unless I misunderstood something. 

She isn't his biological mother but she adopted him when he was an infant (or toddler?), so I can understand that, in his mind, she was his mother.  I don't recall in the episode when he found out about his adoption.

[Melina22]

4 minutes ago, Crashcourse said:

She isn't his biological mother but she adopted him when he was an infant (or toddler?), so I can understand that, in his mind, she was his mother.  I don't recall in the episode when he found out about his adoption.

Okay, I totally missed that. I remember hearing the word adoption, but couldn't remember any details. So she wasn't his biological mother! I wonder who was, and exactly how the adoption went down. I'm wondering now how ethical it all was. 

[Crashcourse]

3 minutes ago, Melina22 said:

Okay, I totally missed that. I remember hearing the word adoption, but couldn't remember any details. So she wasn't his biological mother! I wonder who was, and exactly how the adoption went down. I'm wondering now how ethical it all was. 

Yeah, they showed a picture of Martha Ann holding him in her arms and he looked pretty young.   

[Annber03]

8 hours ago, Crashcourse said:

It must have been difficult for the son, Sean, living with that mother and then having to help getting her convicted.  I was glad he was able to meet his biological dad and they now have a relationship.  

Yeah, I feel so bad for him. I'm glad he did the right thing in helping to turn her in, but that's still gotta be such a tough thing for a child to do to their parent. 

I also feel for him having to see those photos from the crime scene. The fact that the couple kept them saved on the computer is both incredibly stupid and just plain sick. 

[Luckylyn]

On 5/30/2021 at 6:21 AM, Annber03 said:

Yeah, and then there's the way criminal duos can feed off each other which just adds to the horror. One person alone could, say, commit a few minor crimes, and otherwise not be a serious threat.

But if that person meets someone who's committed much more violent crimes, it's a hell of a lot easier for them to start upping the ante. Maybe they're doing it to try and impress their partner. Maybe, in some cases, they're forced into it. Or, maybe, the violent partner has brought out a side of them that may have always been hidden away, but which they now feel freer to embrace and explore. 

It’s called Folie a Deux I think when two people commit a crime together that they may not have committed individually.

[Melina22]

Yes! I've heard of this, but didn't remember the term when watching the show, but they have to be textbook examples! 

[mythoughtis]

On 5/29/2021 at 7:32 PM, Melina22 said:

 

I think what shocked me is that up until her husband's death she appeared to be living a perfectly normal life, with no hints she'd immediately jump into a life of massive fraud with no apparent conscience.  Her best friend was completely blindsided

 

Add to that the fact that husband number two( the one they murdered) was a sheriffs deputy and she worked at the department.  She fooled everyone into thinking she was a decent person for decades.  I don’t know how you go from supposedly being a law abiding person married  to a cop to being who she turned into in her 50s.  

Husband number 3 was obviously a conman when they met.  He had no combat experience but was being treated for PTSD, that’s how husband number two met him.  So he fooled military psychiatrists.  Only certain soldiers later picked up on his false claims.

I had seen this story before/ but I don’t remember whether  it was on Dateline or 48 hours. 

 

Edited June 4, 2021 by mythoughtis

[txredhead07]

I'm sorry.  I'm just now watching the Dateline version of this story with Elzey and had to find a place to vent.   This guy is a piece of work!! I totally tell my 24 yr old daughter to ask for a lawyer 1st thing now after watching them try to shoehorn people to make their jobs easier and not so their jobs.  Not all police are like this.  My husband was in law enforcement for 14 years.  It's the lazy ones that get me.  I just wanted to punch this Detective in the face so many times during this episode.  What a jerk!! Get to the bottom of what happened yes...but don't be a total asshat while doing it.  Be aggressive, but these are still people.  If you think they did it, prove it.  Get off your butt and prove it sir!  Ok, rant over.  Carry on!

[Guest]

One question:  What in fresh hell does that JD Spielbauer have that two women would fight over him?

I’m missing it.  

[Annber03]

10 minutes ago, PsychoKlown said:

One question:  What in fresh hell does that JD Spielbauer have that two women would fight over him?

I’m missing it.  

I honestly don't know, either, and I love that Josh seems equally as confused as we are about that and keeps harping on that point :p.  I ask that question every time I see any story of this sort on a true crime show in general. I've said it before and I'll say it again, we really need to teach women that a) it's okay to be single, and b) fighting over a guy is not worth it. Never has been, never will be. 

Course, in Katie's case, she clearly had a shitty life prior to this point, so good luck finding a stable role model who could impart those lessons to her when she most needed them, unfortunately :/. 

On a related note, my mom and I got a really good laugh out of this exchange at the beginning of the episode between Josh and Robin's friend Erin: 

"She waited until it was really obvious before she admitted they were together."

"But she did finally acknowledge it."

"Yeah...after they moved in together."

OKAY THEN! Yeah, I would say that's about as good a sign as any, sure. God...

I was wondering if we'd learn that JD had lied about his military service after people started talking about how he kept going on and on about all the stuff that gave him PTSD and whatnot early on in the episode. He seems like the type who would lie about something like that, yeah-he sure lied about so much else, after all. I loved the one interrogator's comment when talking to JD about his text conversations and such:

"Let me read you these texts, in case your memory's failing you." 

As for the whole thing with the pink gun, all I kept thinking about during that part of things was an episode of "Last Week Tonight" from a few years back where John Oliver had talked about the topic of guns and the NRA and whatnot. 

At one point, he was showing clips from some show where women who owned guns were showing off ways that one could decorate their guns to make them look nicer, including making them different colors. Like, say, pink. 

And John pointed out that making one's gun stand out like that would just make it that much easier for investigators to trace those guns back to any crimes in which they were used. So basically, this episode was a perfect example of John's argument in action. 

I do agree that the investigation did seem rather shoddy in some ways, because I'm not sure how the people at the crime scene totally missed the fact that Robin was shot. Perhaps the hole wasn't that big or otherwise obscured, but even so, that still seems a rather big detail to miss. 

And aside from JD's uncle confirming the time Katie showed up, there didn't seem to be much discussion about him beyond that, which seemed really odd to me. Because JD said that his uncle was over at the house to basically keep an eye on things should Robin and Katie both be there, which struck me as a rather odd thing to say, and then there's the fact that his uncle pulls up right behind Katie just as she's getting home. That seemed like some awfully convenient timing to me. 

The cell phone evidence seemed pretty strong enough to exonerate Katie, and the fact she hasn't changed her story does work in her favor as well. But I can also see why some might still think she had some kind of involvement. She sure had strong feelings towards Robin, after all, and there was that comment about her being the one "in charge" in her relationship with JD, which could make for a good argument that she masterminded this somehow (and that would also answer people's questions about whether or not JD could be this conniving). And there are moments, in the way she talks, where she does feel a little...calculated? Careful?...in how she phrases and says certain things? 

I dunno. But yeah. Total mess that didn't have to end this way. All because two women felt a guy like this was worth fighting over. 

Also, on a totally unrelated note, so...there's actually a church in the area called Cowboy Church? Really? Can we be any more stereotypically Texan here, or...? 

[Guest]

Two more thoughts...Miss Robin sure is embracing her celebrity.

And Loverboy JD has a head like a lightbulb.  Low wattage evidently.  
 

 

[Irlandesa]

I remember this case but I thought both Katie and JD killed Robin.  I don't remember her being released.  But maybe it did happen? 

I like the lawyer's defense "JD isn't smart enough to do this but if he wanted to set up Katie, he wouldn't have done such a terrible job"

 

 

[JudyObscure]

8 hours ago, Annber03 said:

 

 

Also, on a totally unrelated note, so...there's actually a church in the area called Cowboy Church? Really? Can we be any more stereotypically Texan here, or...? 

A woman  used to come here to Ohio to visit relatives every year and would attend our church, favoring us with a song she sang (always the same song) while accompanying herself on guitar and wearing western style clothing.  She told us she attended a "cowboy church," out west somewhere.  I barely believed her so I was interested in seeing that church and meeting a few of the fine people who attended.  She explained to us that the reason for these specialized churches was so the cowboys could wear their usual clothes to church.  She actually looked a lot more dressed up in her ruffled skirt and embroidered denim than most of us, but whatever's really important to you I guess.

I felt sorry for innocent Katie spending all that time in jail, but then I remembered she wrote over 300 nasty texts and thought it seemed fair.  Katie was a piece of work.  She always seemed to be writing a bad novel about herself:  "You can call me a lot of things but don't call me a murderer,"  "I lost my father at two and buried my mother at 18."  Plus she looked like an entirely different person from one scene to the next.

Ladies, guns shoot bullets that rip out people's insides, no amount of pink paint and glitter will ever make them feminine.

Edited June 5, 2021 by JudyObscure

[Annber03]

1 hour ago, JudyObscure said:

A woman  used to come here to Ohio to visit relatives every year and would attend our church, favoring us with a song she sang (always the same song) while accompanying herself on guitar and wearing western style clothing.  She told us she attended a "cowboy church," out west somewhere.  I barely believed her so I was interested in seeing that church and meeting a few of the fine people who attended.  She explained to us that the reason for these specialized churches was so the cowboys could wear their usual clothes to church.  She actually looked a lot more dressed up in her ruffled skirt and embroidered denim than most of us, but whatever's really important to you I guess.

Huh. Fascinating. TIL. I can understand the interest in wanting to be able to just wear whatever you're most comfortable in, yeah. 

Quote

Katie was a piece of work.  She always seemed to be writing a bad novel about herself:  "You can call me a lot of things but don't call me a murderer,"  "I lost my father at two and buried my mother at 18." 

Yeah, her argument about how she wouldn't kill a woman and take her away from her children...okay, fair and understandable defense, except it'd be easier to take that defense seriously if she hadn't, y'know, beat up Robin when she came over to pick up her kids,. Or harassed her with text messages constantly. And if you don't want to break up families, here's a thought: maybe don't have an affair with someone you know is married and has kids? 

And then in her own house, she and her husband had a stockpile of guns, which is probably not the safest thing to have around if you and your husband are involved in a nasty back and forth with his ex-wife. At some point, she had to know that one of those weapons could be used to hurt or kill somebody. Add in the simple fact that having that many guns around doesn't make for a very safe environment for children in general. 

Quote

Ladies, guns shoot bullets that rip out people's insides, no amount of pink paint and glitter will ever make them feminine.

This. 

[Tabbygirl521]

Just as an aside, I must proclaim my undying love for Josh. I follow him on Twitter to the degree that he may think I’m a stalker LOL

Edited June 5, 2021 by Tabbygirl521

[Raiderred]

7 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Ladies, guns shoot bullets that rip out people's insides, no amount of pink paint and glitter will ever make them feminine.

Well hell yeah that's what they do!  I am a female and I carry and none of my firearms are pink.  I am extremely proficient as I practice and am married to a former police officer so I have always had free and great training.  It's not that big of a deal to live in Texas and carry.  As my husband has always said, "There are a ton of evil people out there that do not care about human life."

Also, yes, cowboy church is a real thing and almost always found in rural areas.  It's not uncommon or strange.

Edited June 5, 2021 by Raiderred

[LGraves65]

On 6/5/2021 at 1:51 PM, Raiderred said:

Also, yes, cowboy church is a real thing and almost always found in rural areas.  It's not uncommon or strange.

Back in the day, rodeos ran all weekend, and before they start the Sunday session, they'd have a small church service.  That turned into having them EVERY Sunday at the local arena, and then big bang boom Cowboy Church.

[Ellee]

That .. that ... zombie is going to get away with insanity.   Acccckkkkkk

 

[MsJamieDornan]

On 6/8/2021 at 3:54 PM, Ellee said:

That .. that ... zombie is going to get away with insanity.   Acccckkkkkk

 

I guess we will find out for sure in 90 days

[BusyOctober]

Watching “Breakout”, and I’m not familiar with the story.  I’m only 15 minutes into it, but I just heard Andrea Canning say one of the dumbest things I’ve heard from her.  She was describing Toby, the woman at the center of the story.  Toby was a volunteer at a Kansas prison, and she ran the the prison’s dog training program.  Apparently, Toby was a much loved and respected presence at the prison.  Andrea said “Toby, a woman so beloved, they even gave her an endearing nickname- The Dog Lady.”

Now, maybe Andrea hasn’t been showered with many endearing nicknames in her life, but “The Dog Lady” is not a term of endearment.  It is basic descriptive words to identify someone whose name you don’t remember.  “Hey Gus, that lady wants to know if you want to join the dog training today.”  “ What lady?”  “You know, The Dog Lady!”  “Oh yeah!  The Dog Lady!  She sure is nice to those dogs.”  

[LittleIggy]

I thought the reactions of Toby’s sons were bizarre. It’s not as if she abandoned minor children. They were grown. Toby did something incredibly stupid, but not unforgivable, IMO.

[Crashcourse]

I couldn't stand Toby and I can understand why her sons wouldn't want to have anything to do with her, and being grown has nothing to do with it IMO.  She only thought about herself (and her sex drive).  It was sad that her younger son died of cancer and on his deathbed he still didn't want her to hug him, but she damaged the family.   

But, hey, she remarried and now the new husband just has to hope that she never gets another job as Dog Lady at another prison.   

[TVbitch]

Toby. Toby. Toby. It kind of sounds like she's learned something, but sheesh!  

I can understand the son who was dying of cancer being deeply wounded and incredulous that his mother chose to run off and potentially never see him again. I mean, they would have had to stay on the lam indefinitely, so she essentially chose the convict over her kids. She's lucky no one else was hurt during the escape or capture.   

[LittleIggy]

Sorry, still can’t understand it. 

[patty1h]

Hmmm, my mother kept the deep, dark secret that she is in love with a murderer half her age, plans and participates in breaking said dude out of jail, steals a lot of money from my father, runs away with her new BF.   Your family's life is on the nightly news, and name is dragged through the mud, and it feels like people are giving you the side-eye, even though you did nothing wrong. 

Mother never even calls to say I'm alive, or sorry or love you, not even a postcard.   I think I can see why the son was a bit bitter... that kind of selfishness is hard to forgive.

Edited June 13, 2021 by patty1h

[JudyObscure]

8 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

I thought the reactions of Toby’s sons were bizarre. It’s not as if she abandoned minor children. They were grown. Toby did something incredibly stupid, but not unforgivable, IMO.

I agree.  I think the bout with cancer probably made Toby realize how empty her life was. her kids were grown and she didn't think her husband cared about her. She was so depressed she was suicidal.  Then the affair, while crazy, gave her a reason to live.  I doubt if she allowed herself to think forward, she was just living in the moment .  People in love do that sometimes, they drop out of school and elope or run off and join the army, it's just that it's usually young people and they aren't in love with prisoners.

There was something in the news last week about a woman who waited until her children were grown and then became a nun.  Some of her kids couldn't forgive her.  I don't think grown  kids have the right to expect their parents to just be sitting in the old home place for the rest of their lives, waiting for those holiday visits.  

I thought Andrea was extra judgey, too. 

Edited June 13, 2021 by JudyObscure

[Crashcourse]

She's lucky that murderer didn't kill her and take the money, and I think that was his plan before they got caught.  Stupid, selfish woman.  

[Court]

7 hours ago, Crashcourse said:

I couldn't stand Toby and I can understand why her sons wouldn't want to have anything to do with her, and being grown has nothing to do with it IMO.  She only thought about herself (and her sex drive).  It was sad that her younger son died of cancer and on his deathbed he still didn't want her to hug him, but she damaged the family.   

But, hey, she remarried and now the new husband just has to hope that she never gets another job as Dog Lady at another prison.   

AGREED. I think I was supposed to feel sorry for her but I didn't. I think she says the right things but would do it again the same way 

[LittleIggy]

People are forgiven for much worse.

[EtheltoTillie]

It sounds like Toby’s life went off the rails when her daughter died. Marriages often break up during such times. Here they stayed together to raise the other kids but it seems like it was an empty life. Was Manard manipulative?  Probably.  But it might not have worked if she had been in a happy relationship. I can see how the sons would not talk to her. Some people in their position cannot forgive.  They see it as a betrayal of the other close family member who is a victim. 
I had never heard of this case, although it apparently attracted lots of publicity. 

[Guest]

This might just be me thinking this way but if I was in the Dog Lady’s shoes (or is it paws?) I’d serve my sentence, give my children space in terms of accepting me back in their lives (or not) and go away quietly far away to another part of the country where no one would know me and essentially make a fresh start.  

In my line of work I hear all sorts of things so I’m certainly no prude but I must admit I was uncomfortable looking at an unmade bed on the screen and having the Dog Lady talk about her finally being able to have her fulfilling sexual experience with this convict who could be/looked young enough to be her son.

And it’s not the age difference per se because age differences do occur in intimate relationships and that’s none of my business.  I think it’s the totality of her behavior that makes it uncomfortable for me.

I’m surprised Dr. Phil didn’t jump on this story.  

 

[MsJamieDornan]

Did anyone else think that dog lady looked like Roseanne ?  In her interview with Andrea ?

[Josiemae]

2 hours ago, PsychoKlown said:

This might just be me thinking this way but if I was in the Dog Lady’s shoes (or is it paws?) I’d serve my sentence, give my children space in terms of accepting me back in their lives (or not) and go away quietly far away to another part of the country where no one would know me and essentially make a fresh start.  

 

 

Right? If for no other reason but to escape the moniker "Dog Lady".

 

 

Edited June 13, 2021 by Josiemae

[iMonrey]

Quote

Did anyone else think that dog lady looked like Roseanne ?  In her interview with Andrea ?

Yup. The sound of her voice and she even looked a little bit like her.

There was a limited series on Showtime (I think) called Escape at Dannemora and I thought maybe it was based on Toby's story, but nope. It's a similar story based on some other true story. So it seems to be a fairly common thing for women who work at or with prisons to fall for inmates. 

[applecrisp]

4 hours ago, MsJamieDornan said:

Did anyone else think that dog lady looked like Roseanne ?  In her interview with Andrea ?

Oddly I really thought she sounded like Roseann

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Yup. The sound of her voice and she even looked a little bit like her.

There was a limited series on Showtime (I think) called Escape at Dannemora and I thought maybe it was based on Toby's story, but nope. It's a similar story based on some other true story. So it seems to be a fairly common thing for women who work at or with prisons to fall for inmates. 

Absolutely true.

I had to spend two weeks in a prison counseling inmates.  My degree required that I experience various situations (hospitals, prisons, homeless shelters, etc) so that I could gain valuable experience in counseling as well as choose the area that best fit my professional goals.

Anyway, before I went on my prison excursion I had a private sit down with my professor and she gave the rules of the game.  Things that I would never think about - she addressed and made me quite aware that it’s a slippery slope dealing with the prisoners.  They will charm you, compliment you and smile all the damn day.   I know of one student who was pulled from the prison rotation because the prison officials thought she was becoming too cozy with an inmate.  

One funny thing I still remember, my advisor put me on for an extra few days and asked if I mind going back  (because the one student was pulled) and I said to her something to the effect “I’m good.  I’m not falling for any of their talk” and she said “We’re not concerned with you - you’d be one hard nut to crack”.  

Her compliment was much more awesome than any prisoner could give me.  

[Crashcourse]

I also found it strange that the inmate lost 25 lbs. in order to fit into the dog cage, and did any of the prison staff wonder why he lost so much weight?  Seems to me like that would have raised their suspicions.

[JudyObscure]

51 minutes ago, Crashcourse said:

I also found it strange that the inmate lost 25 lbs. in order to fit into the dog cage, and did any of the prison staff wonder why he lost so much weight?  Seems to me like that would have raised their suspicions.

Well in the "Escape to Dannemora" case,  the prison seamstress manages to smuggle in a file and shovel so that the prisoner she fell in love with could, and did,  dig a tunnel out from his cell, and no part of that raised suspicions.  It makes me wonder about all the things that go unnoticed in prisons.  It also makes me shudder.

As someone who struggles to lose a pound, I couldn't help but be struck by this man having the discipline to lose 25 pounds, but not the discipline to stay in school, work a steady job or wait out his prison sentence.  Now he has ten extra years to do and ruined the dog lady's life.

[Crashcourse]

18 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

Well in the "Escape to Dannemora" case,  the prison seamstress manages to smuggle in a file and shovel so that the prisoner she fell in love with could, and did,  dig a tunnel out from his cell, and no part of that raised suspicions.  It makes me wonder about all the things that go unnoticed in prisons.  It also makes me shudder.

As someone who struggles to lose a pound, I couldn't help but be struck by this man having the discipline to lose 25 pounds, but not the discipline to stay in school, work a steady job or wait out his prison sentence.  Now he has ten extra years to do and ruined the dog lady's life.

I agree with everything except the bolded because Dog Lady ruined her own life.

[EtheltoTillie]

7 hours ago, Crashcourse said:

I also found it strange that the inmate lost 25 lbs. in order to fit into the dog cage, and did any of the prison staff wonder why he lost so much weight?  Seems to me like that would have raised their suspicions.

Especially since he was already quite thin! 

[Morrigan2575]

When this first started, I thought it was the case in NY where the Female Prison Guard helped 2 convicts escape because she was in love with one of them. She was married and, had a family she abandoned too.

It was interesting to see how this unfolded. I'm not surprised that her husband and sons cut her off. That's a major betrayal; it goes beyond a simple affair (which is bad enough). 

I'm glad she at least got to make peace/say goodbye to her youngest son before he died. 

[mythoughtis]

On 6/12/2021 at 11:24 PM, LittleIggy said:

People are forgiven for much worse.

And people are not forgiven for much less.  It’s up to the person that was wronged to decide whether or not to forgive.

Toby chose to cut herself out of her sons lives for a convicted murderer 21 years younger than her.  If she wasn’t happy in the marriage, then do marriage counseling or get a divorce.  Buy a sports car. Don’t have  an affair.  Don’t drain the retirement and bank accounts that are supposed to be for both you and  your spouse when you get old.    Don’t  break a dangerous criminal out of prison, becoming a criminal yourself. 

They were going to be on the run until they were caught. If it had been years, then she wouldn’t have been able to speak to her sons for years. She had to know this and she had to know they would be caught eventually and she would go to jail.  

 

Edited June 15, 2021 by mythoughtis

[Tabbygirl521]

On 6/13/2021 at 11:42 AM, Crashcourse said:

I also found it strange that the inmate lost 25 lbs. in order to fit into the dog cage, and did any of the prison staff wonder why he lost so much weight?  Seems to me like that would have raised their suspicions.

No kidding. It’s exactly what Ted Bundy did before one of his escapes.