All Episodes Discussion

[CrazyInAlabama]

I'm guessing that the daughter's boyfriend was a lot more involved with everything.     I'm guessing that Bailey really didn't ever want to spend her summers working at the resort.   And she definitely didn't want to leave her school (she was in a program there, where she completed almost a year's worth of college credits by the time she graduated from high school), and she wouldn't have been getting away with the boyfriend staying with her at the lake.    I'm suspecting that the boyfriend decided what to do on his own.    

I bet the husband offering so much for the resort was thinking that the owners would negotiate with him, or hold the mortgage for the extra.    Another person who doesn't accept reality.     

 I'm wondering if the husband wasn't sleeping in the bed when the wife died?    After an argument, I bet he didn't want to sleep next to the wife, and she didn't want him there either.    Maybe he was on the couch,  or the guest room, and he only woke up when the shotgun blasts happened?   I bet if he would have been in bed next to the wife, then he would be dead too. 

Edited December 5, 2020 by CrazyInAlabama

[Fable]

This was another interesting one that I really wondered about.  On the one hand, the husband’s story didn’t make sense, and I kept asking myself how was it not him, but on the other hand, it didn’t seem to me his story changed that much to fit the narrative (in spite of what the investigator said), and I can see how, in a traumatic situation, things blur together and you don’t remember everything the way it happened.  However, there was the lack of blood on him and the fact that he wasn’t hit by a bullet.   In any case, I kept yelling at him through my screen to lawyer up. 

The daughter and her boyfriend were troubling though.  They couldn’t keep their stories straight from one minute to the next.  And do not even get me started on the obvious lie that they were completely platonic.  No red-blooded 19-year-old is keeping his hands off a girl who was 15 because his pastor said so, just no.  The texts were even more condemning, and of course the love letters. 

[Irlandesa]

8 hours ago, itsadryheat said:

Also the weird boyfriends father who was the alibi. Watching tv together when the shooting occured.

Anyone remeber what time the daughter thought she heard the 2 shots - 12:38am or 2:38am 'ish?  Kinda late to be watching tv together, just sayin. . .

She said it was around 2:30.  The police took that as a precise time but it sounds like they never really pressed her on whether or not around 2:30 meant 2:20 a.m. or 2:35 a.m. which would make a difference in the timeline.

I thought it was kind of strange that his alibi was that he was watching TV with his dad at the time.  I'm sure it happens but I can't remember ever being up and watching TV with my parents in the very middle of the night.

Also strange was the whole story about how the daughter texted him so he got into his car to drive over but left when he saw all the police cars.  This girl is someone you care about, would you want to go see whether or not she's okay?

6 hours ago, Lsk02 said:

ETA-I also think Jeremy was lying his face off in the police interview about not fooling around with 15 year old Bailey. He knew better than to ever admit that, but there’s no way they were just “talking” all those times he snuck in her parents house. I wonder if he passed that part of the lie detector. 

I know.  I'd like to know what pinged as deceptive.  This is a 19 year old who'd sneak into a 15 year old's house even though he knew his parents didn't want them dating.  I suspect the reason he was hesitant to admit to texting while driving is both because he knew it was wrong and he knew he couldn't pretend like he wasn't.

9 hours ago, Lsk02 said:

They made a decent case for the husband doing it with where the first bullet hit the headboard and somehow missed him, but that wasn’t enough. 

I think the defense handled that piece of evidence pretty well.  The string did not look taut.  Plus, if he was asleep, no one probably knows what angle he was at in bed.  He could have bee on his back next to her but if he was a tosser and a turner, he could have been curled up as well and not ever realized it if he was jarred awake suddenly. I had an alarm go off in my house recently when I was in bed and I know I leapt out of bed to go see what was going on.  I could not tell you how I was sleeping before I woke up.  The fact that he said he only heard one shot when there were two was one of the most convincing details of his story.

I was really impressed that the jury tried to reconstruct that scene.  I think it would have been so easy to just convict him because him being the killer just made sense due to his proximity to the crime and possible fiscal motive.

And yet, I felt his grief was authentic in both the Dateline interview and his multiple interrogations with the police.  His lack of clarity about the minute details they were asking of him made sense given the situation.  When weird, happenstance things happen, sometimes there are no explanations someone can give. 

I agree that people do give loved ones the benefit of the doubt but I can't remember the last time Dateline couldn't find a friend of the victim or a family member who thought the accused did it other than maybe the daughter's boyfriend whose "wide awake story" was weirder than the husband's half asleep story.  And this was after he had lived with his in-laws for at least a year after the crime.  That's a long time to play act a grieving spouse.

Edited December 6, 2020 by Irlandesa

[CrazyInAlabama]

If there were two shots, and the husband was actually sleeping in bed (since they were fighting, I wonder if he was on a sofa, or guest room instead?), the first shot probably shocked his hearing, and the shots were supposed to be so close together, his ears were probably ringing. 

[Morrigan2575]

By the end of the episode I still had 2 suspects (Chris and Jeremy). I wasn't able to rule either out, which leaves me with reasonable doubt. I can't say Chris is innocent but, I don't think I would have been able to vote Guilty.

I found the daughter texting "Jeremy!!" After her mom was shot odd. It made me think she thought he did it and, I can't rule out them being in on it together. 

I wish they would have confirmed Jeremy's second story about driving up after the text. I don't understand why they didn't get phone records to show the cell phones location? Maybe they did and Dateline left it out, or I missed it?

I found the timeline questionable and, the fact that they didn't lock it down troublesome. I wish they would have confirmed the time with the daughter. Also, even if it was 2:30 and, he called it in at 2:39 I don't see him getting out of the house, over to his shop dropping off the shotgun and then back in time to call the cops. 

The main things that point towards Chris was the lack of blood on him and the bullet just missing him. If he was in bed spooning he should have been shot as well. However, I remember another Dateline where husband and, wife were in bed together and, someone shot the husband. The wife was unscathed so everyone thought she did it. Turns out it was her husband's ex-wife.

 

[Irlandesa]

1 hour ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

I wonder if he was on a sofa, or guest room instead?

I would think he would have said that instead of claiming to be in bed with her. 

16 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I wish they would have confirmed Jeremy's second story about driving up after the text. I don't understand why they didn't get phone records to show the cell phones location? Maybe they did and Dateline left it out, or I missed it?

Maybe because of how remote the houses apparently were, it wouldn't show movement the way it would in the city.

16 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I found the daughter texting "Jeremy!!" After her mom was shot odd. It made me think she thought he did it and, I can't rule out them being in on it together. 

Right.  Or maybe they had mentioned how her parents were in the way and how it'd be better if they were gone.  And then Jeremy took matters into his own hands and that text was a question as to whether it was him. 

Did they mention ever testing for GSR? 

Edited December 6, 2020 by Irlandesa

[Court]

I was pretty convinced the boyfriend did it along with help from the daughter almost the whole time. I did have some doubt about Dad in the middle but not enough to change my mind. 

[TVbitch]

Glad I was not on this jury.

The thing that bothers me most about Chris was that he made zero effort to help his wife nor even just BE with her after she was shot. If he had said, "I freaked the fuck out and was terrified and hid in the garage," I could actually maybe believe that. But he didn't. He turned the light on, went for the phone, noticed the door was open, checked on his daughter. For him to just say that she "looked dead". I mean, WTF?! 

Of course, Jeremy had some WTF stuff too which others have already mentioned. And the way Jeremy pointed the cops toward Chris being guilty with information about their fights and divorce and other stuff that supposedly came from the daughter who swore him to secrecy, well, if that was all lies as Chris claimed it was, you would think the daughter would not have stayed with Jeremy. So if it was Jeremy, I do think the daughter is complicit. 

[CrazyInAlabama]

I think that whoever did the shooting, hid the weapon somewhere outside the property, and went back for it later, and then waited until the police showed, to see what happened.    Or else used the husband's gun, and put it back. 

 I don't think Chris found his wife super quickly, I think he was sleeping elsewhere in the house, and heard the blast, and started looking around, and didn't find his wife at first.     I think the husband lied about being in the bedroom, because he didn't want the police, and everyone else to know how much he was arguing with the wife.   

His response to finding his wife dead didn't disturb me so much, because the police get angry at you for trying to help someone who is obviously gone already, and get blood all over you, then if you don't they get suspicious for not trying.   

If the wife's rejections were the only roadblock to him buying the resort, or maybe another property further from where they lived, then why didn't he go forward after the trial?    Or just go ahead and try to buy a resort, and I bet he could only afford the resort if he sold the family home, and others didn't want that.  

Edited December 6, 2020 by CrazyInAlabama

[Madding crowd]

I think he didn’t go forward with the resort because he wanted to do it with his wife.

[TVbitch]

5 hours ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

His response to finding his wife dead didn't disturb me so much, because the police get angry at you for trying to help someone who is obviously gone already, and get blood all over you, then if you don't they get suspicious for not trying. 

But the wife did not die immediately. Chris said she was still speaking and gurgling, which was confirmed by the coroner that she could have been alive for 5 or so minutes after being shot. So why is Chris jumping to the determination that she is dead and not attending to her at all? And even if she was beyond help, how on earth do you not try to comfort someone you love so much as they are gurgling their last breaths? 

[EtheltoTillie]

1 hour ago, Madding crowd said:

I think he didn’t go forward with the resort because he wanted to do it with his wife.

But why did he make that offer of more money?  Money they didn’t have. 

This case is a real head scratcher. No easy resolution so the jury went with reasonable doubt. 

Edited December 6, 2020 by GussieK

[Tabbygirl521]

I think the daughter and Jeremy are guilty, for most of the same reasons you all have brought out here. it also seems odd that to this day she won’t talk to her dad about that night. She didn’t seem all that traumatized at the time so what’s the problem now?

And there’s no way to say this without sounding awful but - I think if Chris has done it, he would have done a better job. He was a hunter and so I would have expected a more direct shot. And surely he would not have left the murder weapon (they did finally conclude that was the gun, yes?) in plain sight in his office. That screamed “frame up” to me. 
 

The fact that Chris made a second offer on the resort that had increased by the amount of the insurance payout gave me pause. But then I realized it didn’t mean he planned his wife’s death; it just meant he had additional money now and that’s what he decided to do with it. I mean, it could mean either thing but it’s not definitive to me. 
 

I actually plan to watch this again with a closer eye on Jeremy’s demeanor. And maybe freeze-frame his creepy letters and read them thoroughly. 

Edited December 6, 2020 by Tabbygirl521

[Tabbygirl521]

PS: the episode title is “Far From Spider Lake.”

[iMonrey]

Quote

They all seem perfectly fine with Chris’s “not guilty” verdict, but nowhere did we hear that her family, her daughter, or anyone else is pressing for answers.  Maybe because they wonder about Bailey (the daughter) and Jeremy themselves?

Yes I think they all know and are in denial. Chris even said in his interview he hadn't "had that conversation" with Bailey. WTH? You haven't asked your daughter if she and her boyfriend had anything do with this? It has to be because you already know the answer and don't want to face it.

Quote

PS: the episode title is “Far From Spider Lake.”

OK that makes morse sense.

Edited December 6, 2020 by iMonrey

[Irlandesa]

4 hours ago, TVbitch said:

But the wife did not die immediately. Chris said she was still speaking and gurgling, which was confirmed by the coroner that she could have been alive for 5 or so minutes after being shot. So why is Chris jumping to the determination that she is dead and not attending to her at all? And even if she was beyond help, how on earth do you not try to comfort someone you love so much as they are gurgling their last breaths? 

With the caveat that I don't think people really know how they'd react in that situation until it happened, I can say that I think I might do the same thing he did.  If I looked over and saw my partner covered in blood, trying to speak, I'd probably be afraid to touch them.  I'd go for the phone too to call for help and if I had a kid in the house, I absolutely do think I'd check to see how they are. 

[JudyObscure]

10 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

  I'd go for the phone too to call for help and if I had a kid in the house, I absolutely do think I'd check to see how they are. 

I too, would check on my child and make sure the gunman wasn't still in the house, but once I saw she was okay and locked the back door, I would have flown back to the bedroom and done what I could to help my wife breath.  I sure wouldn't be on the phone, calmly saying I think she's dead, without checking for a pulse.

If Chris had been sleeping on the couch and lied about it so the police wouldn't know they'd been arguing (he could have just said he fell asleep watching TV) I would think he would have told them the truth about that the minute it looked like the bullet's path was  going to get him in worse trouble.

I think the reason he didn't go ahead  with the purchase of the resort was that he knew he was under suspicion for murder and it would make him look even  more guilty.

I think he never asked his daughter about it because he knew he had done it.

Jeremy just seemed too dumb to do that and never give himself away.  I wish we had heard more about why the police were so sure Jeremy didn't do it.  I would never take a father's word as an alibi.  Lots of men would lie for their sons.

[UsernameFatigue]

5 hours ago, TVbitch said:

But the wife did not die immediately. Chris said she was still speaking and gurgling, which was confirmed by the coroner that she could have been alive for 5 or so minutes after being shot. So why is Chris jumping to the determination that she is dead and not attending to her at all? And even if she was beyond help, how on earth do you not try to comfort someone you love so much as they are gurgling their last breaths? 

I didn't get that either, especially considering how OTT he was with his grief at the police station. At the first of the episode I thought he did it, and was really overacting, as we often see when a spouse kills their partner. I also don't think that the fact that he did not go on to buy the resort means anything, as quite possibly it was sold to someone else by the time he might have had the funds to buy it. 

I googled to see if I could find any other information about the trial itself. Some of this may have been covered in the episode, as I did fall asleep during a bit of it. During the trial the prosecution said that Chris could not have been sleeping beside his wife when she was shot, as he would have had more blood on himself/his clothes. Also a neighbour saw Chris and Jan arguing while on a walk, the night that she was killed. In addition his insurance agent testified that Chris called him regularly every few months to get an update on when he would receive the money from Jan's life insurance policy.  Maybe because he was still planning on buying the resort, but it ended up being sold before he got the insurance money? 

I still think it is more likely Chris than the boyfriend, if only because when Jan was killed they already knew that they did not have the funds to buy the resort. So there would be no reason to kill Jan to ensure that Bailey did not have to move. And why not kill Chris instead of Jan, since it is more likely Chris would possibly still move and run the resort than Jan would without Chris? 

In any case it had to be one or the other, and one of them got away with murder. Someone upthread posted that Bailey and the boyfriend are still together? I wonder where that info came from? In the link above, there is no mention of the boyfriend in the part about Bailey. 

 

Edited December 6, 2020 by UsernameFatigue

[basiltherat]

I would imagine the reason why Chris didn't buy the resort and kept asking about the insurance money was that he had to pay a lot of money to his lawyers!

[UsernameFatigue]

11 minutes ago, basiltherat said:

I would imagine the reason why Chris didn't buy the resort and kept asking about the insurance money was that he had to pay a lot of money to his lawyers!

He wasn't arrested and charged though until 3 1/2 years after the murder, in March of 2019. Jan was killed August 2015. He was calling his insurance agent asking when he would get the money every few months after Jan was killed. 

[Ashforth]

I wish I hadn't missed this episode. Such interesting comments from y'all!

[Josiemae]

5 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Yes I think they all know and are in denial. Chris even said in his interview he hadn't "had that conversation" with Bailey. WTH? You haven't asked your daughter if she and her boyfriend had anything do with this? It has to be because you already know the answer and don't want to face it.

 

And ... you are OK with your daughter dating the guy who you think might have murdered your wife? I don't buy it. The husband benefited from 'reasonable doubt' in this case.

How can anyone claim Chris had no inconsistencies in his account(s)???  My wife was shot lying down, asleep. No wait ... she was sitting up.  I only heard one shot because I was asleep. No, wait, I was awake. I knew she was dead. No, wait, she was gurgling. 

How many times have we seen stories change when murderers are confronted with forensic evidence? 

And no one mentioned his complete lack of emotion in the 911 call. The operator was more shaken up than he was. 

Finally, who else had access to his workshop where the shotgun was found?

 

5 hours ago, iMonrey said:

 

[Morrigan2575]

2 hours ago, Josiemae said:

Finally, who else had access to his workshop where the shotgun was found?

True but, they did mention that the boyfriend had the same make/model of shotgun and, there was that stuff about the forensic specialist originally saying it wasn't the weapon and, then cycling back to it being the weapon. Easy enough to create reasonable doubt in jury.

That's not to say I think he's innocent, he very well could be the killer. However, the DA really didn't do enough to prove it, IMO.

This brings up another question. They never talked about Finger Prints, DNA or gunshot residue. Did the Cops not test for any of that?

Edited December 7, 2020 by Morrigan2575

[Tabbygirl521]

2 hours ago, Josiemae said:

And ... you are OK with your daughter dating the guy who you think might have murdered your wife? I don't buy it. The husband benefited from 'reasonable doubt' in this case.

How can anyone claim Chris had no inconsistencies in his account(s)???  My wife was shot lying down, asleep. No wait ... she was sitting up.  I only heard one shot because I was asleep. No, wait, I was awake. I knew she was dead. No, wait, she was gurgling. 

How many times have we seen stories change when murderers are confronted with forensic evidence? 

And no one mentioned his complete lack of emotion in the 911 call. The operator was more shaken up than he was. 

Finally, who else had access to his workshop where the shotgun was found?

 

 

I thought Chris said he had told Bailey he would talk about it with her any time but they hadn’t had the convo yet? I had the impression he was willing and she was not. 

[Irlandesa]

7 hours ago, UsernameFatigue said:

During the trial the prosecution said that Chris could not have been sleeping beside his wife when she was shot, as he would have had more blood on himself/his clothes. Also a neighbour saw Chris and Jan arguing while on a walk, the night that she was killed. In addition his insurance agent testified that Chris called him regularly every few months to get an update on when he would receive the money from Jan's life insurance policy.

The prosecution's theory was that he would have had blood on him.  The defense presented a different opinion.  The prosecution also said he should have been shot but the defense offered evidence that the prosecution's opinion was based on a faulty reconstruction.  When they recreated it in the jury room, they found that the defense's assertion that he could have been lying down and not shot was possible. 

If anything the prosecution's insistence that there was no way he wouldn't have been shot if he had been next to his wife and there's no way he wouldn't have been covered in blood ended up weakening their case when the defense could show that it was possible, even if less likely.

And I really don't think calling up the insurance agent every couple of months to get an update is all that much. Especially if money was apparently the motive.  Every couple of months lacks a certain urgency, especially when Chris allegedly had the immediate goal of buying the resort.

4 hours ago, basiltherat said:

I would imagine the reason why Chris didn't buy the resort and kept asking about the insurance money was that he had to pay a lot of money to his lawyers!

Ha.  He definitely wasn't paying lawyers before he was arrested.  They would have shut down the multiple interviews with the police right quick.

4 hours ago, Josiemae said:

And ... you are OK with your daughter dating the guy who you think might have murdered your wife?

I didn't get the sense that he was okay at all with them dating.  Shes 18 by now and can make her own decisions.  I got the sense that he carefully walks the line because he doesn't want to lose her. 

4 hours ago, Josiemae said:

How can anyone claim Chris had no inconsistencies in his account(s)???  My wife was shot lying down, asleep. No wait ... she was sitting up.  I only heard one shot because I was asleep. No, wait, I was awake. I knew she was dead. No, wait, she was gurgling. 

I don't think anyone is claiming there are no inconsistencies.  But, at least IMO, they're the kind of consistencies consistent with being woken up and caught in a blur.  Not the "gotchya" type of inconsistencies the prosecution thought they had.

The defense presented some other evidence at the trial too.  Apparently there was a plant that had a video camera on the house that showed that a car possibly was driving away from the Kruse's house around the time of the murder.  I guess it did not come back otherwise the prosecution would have used that to back their theory of Chris driving the gun to his workshop.

[Lsk02]

Since watching Dateline one thing I’ve learned is that there is no definite “guilty” way to make a 911 call. Most famously, Russ Faria was too emotional (according to investigators) on his call. Others were not emotional enough. And many in between, who have later been charged, not charged, found guilty, not guilty, and on and on. 
 

In my opinion, how individuals react in emergency, tragic, or frightening situations varies so greatly based on their personality, past experiences, and so much more that there’s no way to say one certain way is the “right” way, and definitely not evidence enough to prove they committed a crime, in most cases, at least. Dateline loves to play the calls and try to have the audience decide, but I’ve watched enough now to see the huge variety of responses which often don’t prove anything. 

Edited December 7, 2020 by Lsk02

[iMonrey]

Quote

And no one mentioned his complete lack of emotion in the 911 call. The operator was more shaken up than he was. 

Quote

Since watching Dateline one thing I’ve learned is that there is no definite “guilty” way to make a 911 call. Most famously, Russ Faria was too emotional (according to investigators) on his call. Others were not emotional enough. And many in between, who have later been charged, not charged, found guilty, not guilty, and on and on. 

Exactly. I don't know if he was guilty or not but you can't judge based on the 911 call. He was likely in shock and unable to process what was happening (assuming he's not guilty, or maybe even then). I have been in emergency situations where I just freeze up and am unable to function. I can easily see where someone might accuse me of being unemotional in a moment like that, when my brain isn't allowing me to accept what's happening.

[CrazyInAlabama]

I can imagine that he was trying to hold everything together, and give the 911 operators the information they need.   I'm like that in an emergency, I call 911, give them the information they need, and then later I can take it all in, and react a lot like the others around me.    

[heatherchandler]

On 11/21/2020 at 3:28 PM, UsernameFatigue said:

I was googling the case, looking for info that Dateline might not have reported but didn't really come across anything else to add. I did however come across Todd's obituary, which is pretty cold. It states that he liked playing video games with his girls, and was married to his wife for 17 years. Nothing about leaving a loving wife, or a devastated family to mourn him. You know, the things you might see in the obituary of someone who died unexpectedly, not to mention violently due to a murder. Guess along with not displaying his picture in her office, Jenea could not muster anything too emotional in Todd's obit, despite her insistence to police that they got along great and she missed him terribly. 

I know this episode is from last month, but I just watched it.  That is weird for an obituary!  But I don't know why everyone thinks it's strange to not have a photo of a spouse - I don't have a picture of my husband in my office at work, just my kids.  None of my co-workers have pictures of their wives or husbands.

[Madding crowd]

Yes, when I still had an office I only had a picture of my kids too. I think cops can take almost anything and make it sound suspicious.

[Irlandesa]

1 hour ago, heatherchandler said:

I know this episode is from last month, but I just watched it.  That is weird for an obituary!  But I don't know why everyone thinks it's strange to not have a photo of a spouse - I don't have a picture of my husband in my office at work, just my kids.  None of my co-workers have pictures of their wives or husbands.

I have nothing personal in my office.  I get teased about how I never decorated. 

[JudyObscure]

14 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

I have nothing personal in my office.  I get teased about how I never decorated. 

Same.  When clients come in I want to talk about them and their problem, not get side tracked into my life. 

[JudyObscure]

Remember Vanessa Guillen, that sweet young soldier who was murdered at Fort Hood? 

A little justice for her today.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/08/politics/fort-hood-investigation/index.html

That was one of the saddest cases we've seen.  It was heartbreaking the way she was so excited to join the Army, then went home for a visit and seemed changed and afraid and didn't want to go back.

[Jeanne222]

6 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Remember Vanessa Guillen, that sweet young soldier who was murdered at Fort Hood? 

A little justice for her today.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/08/politics/fort-hood-investigation/index.html

That was one of the saddest cases we've seen.  It was heartbreaking the way she was so excited to join the Army, then went home for a visit and seemed changed and afraid and didn't want to go back.

Leadership failures is a good way for the higher ups to explain why young female and I bet male soldiers were being raped at Fort Hood!

They took what wasn't theirs to take because they could!  They got away with it for years until along came missing Vanessa and thank goodness her family wouldn't let it go and wouldn't go away!

Top military knew it was going on but the boys will be boys was taking a toll on those young enlisted victims!

This would have gone on forever but for a few brave souls that said enough and started the investigation into this ugly can of worms.

Poor Vanessa never had a chance.  They took everything from her!

Edited December 9, 2020 by Jeanne222

[Jeanne222]

Anybody watch the ID special about Zack Witman tried for killing his younger brother Greg?

That was really something!  He was found guilty but just released after pleading guilty to a lesser charge.  Third degree rather than first degree.

He had to admit guilt and tell why and how it happened.

I think he was guilty.  Every picture shown of the brothers Zack was touching, pestering, teasing Greg.  Not much but constant.

Those parents have really had a time of it!

[Kelly]

39 minutes ago, Jeanne222 said:

Anybody watch the ID special about Zack Witman tried for killing his younger brother Greg?

That was really something!  He was found guilty but just released after pleading guilty to a lesser charge.  Third degree rather than first degree.

He had to admit guilt and tell why and how it happened.

I think he was guilty.  Every picture shown of the brothers Zack was touching, pestering, teasing Greg.  Not much but constant.

Those parents have really had a time of it!

I think he is guilty.  I really feel for the parents, what a nightmare for them.

[hookedontv]

14 hours ago, Kelly said:

14 hours ago, Jeanne222 said:

Anybody watch the ID special about Zack Witman tried for killing his younger brother Greg?

That was really something!  He was found guilty but just released after pleading guilty to a lesser charge.  Third degree rather than first degree.

He had to admit guilt and tell why and how it happened.

I think he was guilty.  Every picture shown of the brothers Zack was touching, pestering, teasing Greg.  Not much but constant.

Those parents have really had a time of it!

I think he is guilty.  I really feel for the parents, what a nightmare for them.

I watched this and was fascinated as I never heard of or didn't remember the case when it originally happened. I looked up this info online because I found it hard to keep straight on the hows and the whys. Maybe someone else will find this helpful!

1998: The stabbing murder of 13 year old Greg Witman took place. Zach was 15. 

2003: Zach was convicted as an adult for 1st degree murder and sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. Zach had been on house arrest for several years prior to that conviction, had been tutored, etc.

2012: The U.S. Supreme Court ruled it unconstitutional for judges to automatically sentence those under 18 years old to life without parole. 

2016: Supreme Court made the 2012 ruling retroactive, allowing Zach to receive a new sentence for his crime. At some point after this, Zach's new attorney discovered a prior defense attorney had not told Zach about a plea offer made by the prosecutor before the first trial began. The judge dismissed the original conviction and sentence. 

2018: Zach pleased guilty to a lesser murder charge, which as far as I know meant that he had to provide details to the court about what he did (that's my understanding from University of Law & Order and Dateline College). 

2019: With time served, Zach was paroled. 

I truly think Zach killed Greg. I don't see how anyone else could have done it. I cannot imagine the parents' pain at losing one son and basically losing another to the prison system. I understand them not wanting to believe that their son was capable of such a crazy and out of character crime, but I do think there are cases were people just "snap." I don't think whether or not Zach was nice to his friends, family, and dogs and never showed any sort of outburst completely makes it out of bounds for him to do this. To me, the evidence was there. The parents just don't want to or can't face it. 

Was anyone else weirded out about how, when the mom was getting ready for Zach to come home to the new house, she gave him his own space in the lower level (that was fine) but that space also included her shrine to Greg? The mom said outright that Zach probably wouldn't like it but he knew she liked it so he wouldn't say anything? I found that strange (shrugs). 

[CrazyInAlabama]

Another case of the scapegoat child can do nothing right (Greg), and the Golden Child (Zach) can do nothing wrong and still be the center of the parents' universe.   

Bet the shrine in the basement to Greg lasted about two seconds after Zach returned home, and saw it.  

[Jeanne222]

2 hours ago, hookedontv said:

I watched this and was fascinated as I never heard of or didn't remember the case when it originally happened. I looked up this info online because I found it hard to keep straight on the hows and the whys. Maybe someone else will find this helpful!

1998: The stabbing murder of 13 year old Greg Witman took place. Zach was 15. 

2003: Zach was convicted as an adult for 1st degree murder and sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. Zach had been on house arrest for several years prior to that conviction, had been tutored, etc.

2012: The U.S. Supreme Court ruled it unconstitutional for judges to automatically sentence those under 18 years old to life without parole. 

2016: Supreme Court made the 2012 ruling retroactive, allowing Zach to receive a new sentence for his crime. At some point after this, Zach's new attorney discovered a prior defense attorney had not told Zach about a plea offer made by the prosecutor before the first trial began. The judge dismissed the original conviction and sentence. 

2018: Zach pleased guilty to a lesser murder charge, which as far as I know meant that he had to provide details to the court about what he did (that's my understanding from University of Law & Order and Dateline College). 

2019: With time served, Zach was paroled. 

I truly think Zach killed Greg. I don't see how anyone else could have done it. I cannot imagine the parents' pain at losing one son and basically losing another to the prison system. I understand them not wanting to believe that their son was capable of such a crazy and out of character crime, but I do think there are cases were people just "snap." I don't think whether or not Zach was nice to his friends, family, and dogs and never showed any sort of outburst completely makes it out of bounds for him to do this. To me, the evidence was there. The parents just don't want to or can't face it. 

Was anyone else weirded out about how, when the mom was getting ready for Zach to come home to the new house, she gave him his own space in the lower level (that was fine) but that space also included her shrine to Greg? The mom said outright that Zach probably wouldn't like it but he knew she liked it so he wouldn't say anything? I found that strange (shrugs). 

I kind of thought that maybe, finally the mom came to believe ZAck killed Greg and that’s why she put the shrine down there. It was also kind of strange she didn’t go with hubby to pick up Zack from prison once he was set free. 
 

Im thinking there were secrets in that house that were never told!

[TVbitch]

Okay I had to find The Witmans online and watch it! It was good. Ugh, Zack had to have done it. What random murderer wears soccer gloves to comit the crime and then takes the time to bury the murder weapon and the gloves in the victims back yard where anyone might stumble on them. Also, he says all he heard was a "bang"? Really? Cuz Greg was trying to escape and had defensive wounds and was probably screaming, at least until his throat was cut. (Zack later said he heard "suffering" -yikes) Also if Zack found Greg half slumped over the washing machine, would he not still be alive at that point? Otherwise his body would have slid to the ground.

Zack seemed pretty chipper at the end, but it seemed fake and like he had a lot going on in there. 

[Tdoc72]

On 12/9/2020 at 6:08 PM, dbell1 said:

On 11/21/2020 at 9:04 AM, Madding crowd said:

On another note, the detective said he was suspicious of her going to see the true crime show in Las Vegas ( was in a NCIS thing?). If that’s the case we are all suspect for liking true crime. And would you really try to recreate a crime that your whole family heard about? Not too smart. 

 

On 11/21/2020 at 11:27 AM, Ashforth said:

 

The thing about CSI: The Experience being a tutorial for getting away with murder was silly. There are a ton of "real life crime" shows on TV that can provide all of the do's and don'ts. 

 

It was a show that traveled around the country to different museums. It may be permanently based in Vegas now since that’s where the show CSI was set. I’ve seen it twice—Boston 2007 and Philly 2011.  Second time was w/my parents and kids.  It was a fun interactive exhibit.  I can’t see anyone planning a murder for it though. Really odd that police thought that.  

[Ashforth]

On 12/8/2020 at 3:05 PM, JudyObscure said:

Remember Vanessa Guillen, that sweet young soldier who was murdered at Fort Hood? 

A little justice for her today.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/08/politics/fort-hood-investigation/index.html

That was one of the saddest cases we've seen.  It was heartbreaking the way she was so excited to join the Army, then went home for a visit and seemed changed and afraid and didn't want to go back.

 

On 12/8/2020 at 9:05 PM, Jeanne222 said:

Leadership failures is a good way for the higher ups to explain why young female and I bet male soldiers were being raped at Fort Hood!

They took what wasn't theirs to take because they could!  They got away with it for years until along came missing Vanessa and thank goodness her family wouldn't let it go and wouldn't go away!

Top military knew it was going on but the boys will be boys was taking a toll on those young enlisted victims!

This would have gone on forever but for a few brave souls that said enough and started the investigation into this ugly can of worms.

Poor Vanessa never had a chance.  They took everything from her!

Vanessa's family are the heroes here. They stood up and yelled and screamed and refused to be ignored. Without them, the harassment and her murder would have been swept under the rug, as is the common pattern of the US military. 

[Jeanne222]

4 minutes ago, Ashforth said:

 

Vanessa's family are the heroes here. They stood up and yelled and screamed and refused to be ignored. Without them, the harassment and her murder would have been swept under the rug, as is the common pattern of the US military. 

Amen they sure were!  That was like David vs Goliath for that small band of family!

[Annber03]

Holy shit, the story of Aundreah's ordeal. Good freaking lord, what a nightmare. I both admire her incredibly quick thinking and ability to remain calm (or at least, as calm as one possibly could be in such a situation) and want to hug her all at the same time. Thank goodness she managed to make it out okay. 

Edwin is creepy as hell and the fact he was able to get a job as a security guard at a college, and under such horrendously lax conditions, no less, is deeply chilling. Glad her family's working to change those laws and policies. I'm glad that his wife up and left him, too. I hope she's doing okay now, wherever she is. 

[Ellee]

I’m just watching last night’s show right now. 
 

Edwin Lara did NOT go through a background check!??!  

The college was warned before all this happened!??!  

Glad to hear that Aundrea and Kaylee’s family developed a relationship.  It’s good for them all. 

ETA  That man’s now ex wife was going to be a cop?  Did it say what happened to her?  Is she police now?   I have to wonder how she recovers also regardless of her profession.   

Edited December 12, 2020 by Ellee

[Ohmo]

I'm purposely posting before I read the responses of others and giving my likes.  I'm stunned that the jury somehow did NOT convict Chris Crews.

To me, it was quite clear that he did it.  I think the shot in the headboard was him doing exactly that---shooting the headboard to make it look like a shooter had shot at him.

I think his stories were inconsistent about the details that mattered, and he had no blood on him at the time.

I also think the amount of the insurance policy and the fact that he wanted the Spider Lake resort were big issues as well.  Why would he kill the person who would run the resort with him? Because he wasn't thinking that far ahead.

I also don't think it was Jeremy, Boyfriends have been known to kill the parents of their girlfriends, but even if Chris and Jan were to divorce, what would killing them accomplish for Bailey?  Also, Jan was dead. If Jeremy had shot and killed Jan, I would expect him to shoot again until Chris was dead. No witnesses.  I think Chris got away with murder.

Edited December 16, 2020 by Ohmo

[Ohmo]

Quote

What say you all?

I say Chris did it, and he knew he had a handy scapegoat with his daughter's not-boyfriend whom he did not like.

On 12/5/2020 at 1:31 PM, Crashcourse said:

I know people can experience grief and trauma differently, but that daughter acted strangely cold and indifferent during the interview with the police.  I suspected her and the boyfriend.

I attributed that to her being hard of hearing.  Her voice intonation may come off as cold, but I think that may be how she talks.  Her father is older than she is, and his hearing loss may be not as severe as hers.  His speech pattern may be different due to that and the fact that he has lived longer and has learned to compensate for it.  She's younger and was likely trying to concentrate during the interview.

I also thought her father was overacting at times.

[Ohmo]

On 12/6/2020 at 9:30 AM, TVbitch said:

But the wife did not die immediately. Chris said she was still speaking and gurgling, which was confirmed by the coroner that she could have been alive for 5 or so minutes after being shot. So why is Chris jumping to the determination that she is dead and not attending to her at all? And even if she was beyond help, how on earth do you not try to comfort someone you love so much as they are gurgling their last breaths? 

This, along with all of that stuff with the investigator.  You're awake, Jan's sitting up, your hand is underneath her, etc.  All of that stuff was important, and Chris couldn't keep any of it straight...which is a sign to me that it was all BS.  Plus, then he identifies the shooter as he, then is surprised that he did, but then doesn't identify the he as Jeremy?  That's because I don't think there was a "he" at all.

I don't think Jeremy was being truthful about everything, but I think his lies had to do more with him dating a 15 year old.  Chris, on the other hand, wanted this resort that his wife just told him they could not afford.  A resort that he talked about for years and even mentioned in one of his last comments on the show.  And he makes an offer that just so happens to be the exact amount of money as the life insurance on Jan.

Quote

I think he never asked his daughter about it because he knew he had done it.

ETA: Plus, it plays well with the "I'm so concerned about my daughter" routine.  And it plays well with his in-laws, who seem to believe everything he says.

Edited December 12, 2020 by Ohmo

[Ellee]

Question. If the college was libel for Edwin Lara and the $2 mill Max was paid to the Sawyer family, could the gentleman that was shot and Aundrea who was kidnapped sue the school for $2 mill each too and get a judgment?  Just curious.

 

 

 

[Ohmo]

On 12/6/2020 at 2:35 PM, UsernameFatigue said:

In any case it had to be one or the other, and one of them got away with murder. Someone upthread posted that Bailey and the boyfriend are still together? I wonder where that info came from? In the link above, there is no mention of the boyfriend in the part about Bailey. 

The fact that Jeremy and Bailey are still together came from the episode.  It was mentioned at the end. I also don't think them being together is a sign or their guilt. It also points to Chris's guilt. If you believe that your father killed your mother, you're not going to want to be around him and you're going to want to stay with someone with whom you feel safe.  That's Jeremy.

I also think the PD's statement is telling.  Jeremy was investigated, and I think if the cops suspected Bailey, they would have investigated her as well.  They even investigated the neighbor. For this police department, I don't think they would have had any issue charging Bailey or Jeremy, but the evidence did not lead them there.  It led them to Chris.