All Episodes Discussion

[saber5055]

Thank you @DallasGypsy for an interesting and informative post. I did a search for prices at prison stores and discovered that list is difficult to come by, even for family members/spouses. I did find a 2014 one for the Federal Correctional Complex, Petersburg, Virginia. Candy bars (Twix, Snickers, Reese's, et. al.) were 80 cents. A pint of ice cream, $1.90. FCC Petersburg is for low- and medium-security inmates so, of course, quite different from Angola. Still, the price list is interesting if one imagines they are earning two cents per hour.

[iMonrey]

I found the Angola episode to be mostly depressing. There's a lot wrong with this country's prison system, that's for sure. But when it comes to convicted murderers, I don't know just how sorry I feel for them. I don't care if they've changed or what the circumstances were or if they've found Jesus or whatever. There has to be a price paid for that no matter what.

[MerBearHou]

Where, where, where is Jennifer Dulos?  Please someone find that woman.  Tonight’s show was so interesting.  I loathed hearing Fotis Dulos and was creeped out by him.  The defense attorney is smarmy but good — he’s working hard at reasonable doubt.  I think a jury would hate Fotis though.  

Edited September 10, 2019 by MerBearHou

[biakbiak]

I really didn’t like the friend describing Jennifer as an intelligent Cindy Crawford, Cindy isn’t stupid yes she decided to drop out after only a term in college to pursue her modeling career but she was her high school valedictorian and got an academic scholarship to study chemical engineering at Northwestern which is no joke. It just seemed like a weird jab! 

Edited September 10, 2019 by biakbiak

[cooksdelight]

I couldn’t stand the defense attorney. Reminded me of one I saw on a Law & Order rerun yesterday. 

[A.Ham]

7 hours ago, biakbiak said:

I really didn’t like the friend describing Jennifer as an intelligent Cindy Crawford, Cindy isn’t stupid yes she decided to drop out after only a term in college to pursue her modeling career but she was her high school valedictorian and got an academic scholarship to study chemical engineering at Northwestern which is no joke. It just seemed like a weird jab! 

That struck me as an odd comparison as well. The thought popped into my head that somehow, somewhere Cindy Crawford would be saying "Excuse me?"

[LakeGal]

I was surprised Dateline didn't mention about the water skiing.  Every time I hear about this case they seem to mention how Fotis made the children water ski for hours.  He was determined to make them into world class water skiers and the kids cried from having to practise for hours.  It was one of the reasons the mother wanted to get the kids away from their father.  

[TVbitch]

They did mention that the kids were "world class water skiers coached by their dad" but made it sound like a good thing. No mention of making the kids do it or it being a stress for them. But that was at the point in the "story" where they were trying to make them out as a happy family.

If you freeze frame on that last written statement that the girlfriend gave at the very end, she is talking about washing the cars and stuff. I wonder why Dateline did not give us that nugget as it makes him seem even more guilty. Dude was a cool customer during his sit down with Josh. He must be feeling confident.   

[Ohmo]

2 hours ago, TVbitch said:

Dude was a cool customer during his sit down with Josh. He must be feeling confident. 

But I also think the police chief was saying (without explicitly saying) "We know he did it.  We're  working to find her and enough evidence to nail him."  The chief seemed confident to me too, but he's playing the patient, long game.  I got good vibes from the chief.

There's not a doubt in my mind that Fotis did it.  Michelle is the wild card here.  I think she was involved, but it can't yet be determined if her involvement is knowledge of the crime, participation in the crime, or both.

[Annber03]

9 hours ago, cooksdelight said:

I couldn’t stand the defense attorney. Reminded me of one I saw on a Law & Order rerun yesterday. 

The way he takes pride in taking on controversial clients was enough to put me off him. I know that everybody is entitled to a defense when they're charged with something, of course, but I'd be deeply uncomfortable about having to try and defend somebody like Alex Jones. He definitely seems more interested in trying to make a name for himself than anything else. 

And the Gone Girl-type argument...I mean, speaking on a general level, I wouldn't rule out the idea that somebody might try and pull something like that, 'cause, hey, wackier things have happened (remember the runaway bride from about a decade or so ago?). But yeah, I don't think that explanation makes sense in this particular case. That theory wouldn't explain why the girlfriend's behaving as she is, after all. She definitely knows something, and I think it's only a matter of time before she spills whatever she knows. 

[iMonrey]

I wonder how long it's going to take before one or both are charged with murder. 

Quote

I really didn’t like the friend describing Jennifer as an intelligent Cindy Crawford,

Especially since she didn't look anything like her.

Quote

Michelle is the wild card here.  I think she was involved, but it can't yet be determined if her involvement is knowledge of the crime, participation in the crime, or both

Both. I think it's pretty clear she helped him get rid of the evidence.

Not much of a mystery here, if you ask me.

[12catcrazy]

All sorts of people to hate on here.  Fotis - man, he really seems to think he is going to get away with this.  He probably dumped his wife's body where he assumes she is never going to found, so no body, no case.  Maybe his lawyer will suggest that she is vacationing with Kathie Durst!   "Gone Girl" blah - will most people believe that a mother of 5 kids who is already concerned that her husband is going to take off with the kids to Greece, just up and disapear?  And how can that fucking lawyer sleep at night?  He has got to know that his client killed his wife, yet he can blithly come up with "Gone Girl"?  You really hope there is karma because that guy will have plenty to answer for.

Also, Dateline left out some recent news in the case.  Apparently, Fotis told the employee who owned the red truck to remove and replace the vehicle's seating.  He also wanted the vehicle's interior cleaned.  I dont know if the police located the original seats.  

My bet is that they are going to have to offer the girlfriend a really sweet deal to get her to tell all.  She apparently comes from a wealthy family also, so will have a good lawyer.

When the news if this case first broke, I said to my companion - this is going to make Dateline!  It has it all - good looking rich people who were living the dream, adultery, child custody issues, family strife - like it was a dream Dateline story.  I just really hope the girlfriend flips and can tell the cops what happened to Jennifer.

Edited September 11, 2019 by 12catcrazy
Typo

[Annber03]

1 minute ago, 12catcrazy said:

Also, Dateline left out some recent news in the case.  Apparently, Fotis told the employee who owned the red truck to remove and replace the vehicle's seating.  He also wanted the vehicle's interior cleaned. 

Gee, that's totally not suspicious at all!

[UsernameFatigue]

20 hours ago, biakbiak said:

I really didn’t like the friend describing Jennifer as an intelligent Cindy Crawford, Cindy isn’t stupid yes she decided to drop out after only a term in college to pursue her modeling career but she was her high school valedictorian and got an academic scholarship to study chemical engineering at Northwestern which is no joke. It just seemed like a weird jab! 

That struck me as odd, as well. In particular, the phrasing the friend used that Jennifer "looked like an intellectual version of Cindy Crawford". For someone who was in graduate school with Jennifer at NYU for writing, the friend came off to me as not particularly bright where phrasing was concerned. 

The other friend with the horrible eye make up and breathy voice also drove me nuts. At the first of the interview I could swear that she said she was "ascared". I rewound and heard the same word. I can't say I have heard anyone much over the age of three say they were "ascared" rather than scared. 

[cooksdelight]

My guess is the girlfriend will get full immunity to tell all.

That’s what Jack McCoy would do.

[iMonrey]

Quote

The other friend with the horrible eye make up and breathy voice also drove me nuts. At the first of the interview I could swear that she said she was "ascared".

LOL. Yeah, she had a rather odd affectation. When she was asked whether Jennifer let people know she came from money she said "Oh no she just wasn't that way at all." Yet she herself was putting on an air of upper class-ness. And what was her name? Lonna Rae or something?

At this point, you'd think a prosecutor could just use Dateline itself as evidence. "Members of the jury, I give you a couple in the midst of a nasty divorce and custody case where suddenly the wife goes missing. Classic Dateline."

[cooksdelight]

“Askeered” is what I hear sometimes here in the South. 🙂. I used the word cattycornered the other day.

[Ohmo]

20 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Both. I think it's pretty clear she helped him get rid of the evidence.

I'd consider that a separate (although related) crime.  I'm talking about participation in terms of whether or not Michelle participated in killing Jennifer.  That has yet to be determined.

[car54]

Next episode.   Dateline turned this story around quickly.

Edited September 11, 2019 by car54

[saber5055]

5 hours ago, cooksdelight said:

“Askeered” is what I hear sometimes here in the South. 🙂. I used the word cattycornered the other day.

That made me laugh, plus I totally understood all the directions. "You done gone too far." And yes, I use catty cornered all the time. I'd do great with that as my GPS.

[atlantaloves]

Oh yeah, in the South we use landmarks for everything, if you live in Marietta Georgia you gotta know where the "big chicken" is or you can't find anything. ha. Plus you better know where every single gas station is in Atlanta or you've gone too far buddy. 

That was a great case, and that greek guy better rot in prison, he did it girl... 

[Ohmo]

2 hours ago, car54 said:

Next episode.   Dateline turned this story around quickly.

Dateline seems to be getting faster.  Jennifer Dulos and now Mackenzie Lueck.  I wonder if they've decided to do "initial episodes" on a case and then decide to add updates later as a particular case moves through the legal process.

[Melina22]

On 9/8/2019 at 8:36 AM, JudyObscure said:

Just the satisfaction of seeing something you've planted grow is a positive thing.

As mentioned, I've seen shows where prisoners get to train service dogs. It's tragic when they have to say goodbye to them, but it also gives them purpose and self-esteem. They're less likely to be violent or suicidal. 

If these men are eventually going to be released, what possible good could come from keeping them stuck in cells eating a garbage diet? Ultimately, it's a lose-lose situation for everyone. 

I really like any prison program that keeps the inmates busy with meaningful work that benefits everyone, plus maybe a little money as incentive. Anything else is a kind of psychological torture that is going to backfire.

For people who complain, they have to understand that they're still being punished. The loss of freedom alone is a huge punishment. It bothers me when people discount it. I think it's unlikely they themselves have ever been locked up. 

[12catcrazy]

Ok, so teaser re 11 o'clock news tonight on the Dulos case: police are now searching a resevoir for evidence.  

[UsernameFatigue]

On 9/11/2019 at 9:18 AM, cooksdelight said:

“Askeered” is what I hear sometimes here in the South. 🙂. I used the word cattycornered the other day.

That's hilarious. Though I don't know if it is as much a southern thing as a small town thing. This video would definitely apply to the town where I grew up in Canada. No one uses street names, but local landmarks and the houses are still known by the people who lived in them decades ago. I have never used the word cattycornered, but use kittycorner all the time. ☺

[Ohmo]

I feel sorry for Mackenzie's family and friends because they love her and miss her, but what she did was stupid and it cost her her life.  Even the woman who uses that website said Mackenzie made mistakes and did things that she would not have done.

I want to make this about people, not just women, because men can also make tragic mistakes and die as a result of them.  People need to understand that they get one life.  One.  When that life is over, it's over forever.  There will be no more you on this Earth when you die.

Whether it's situations like this or something like trying to take the perfect selfie and getting injured or killed, it frustrates me that so many people keep thinking about what they should be able to do instead of what they ought to do.  In a perfect world, you should be able to take the perfect selfie or meet someone at a park late at night, but this world is not a perfect one.  This world has crime in it.  AJ is very likely guilty of murder, but convicting him will not make Mackenzie any less dead.  Saying that trying to take a risky selfie was an accident doesn't make the injury or death not happen.  Risk exists in this world, and situations like this show that too many people continue to not recognize that fact.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Ohmo

[iMonrey]

Quote

I feel sorry for Mackenzie's family and friends because they love her and miss her, but what she did was stupid and it cost her her life.  

Yeah, this was a tough one.  You never want to victim blame but my goodness, she was playing with fire. 

[TVbitch]

I was pretty stupid in college. Not "sex worker/sugar baby" stupid, but "getting drunk, going off with strangers, hooking up, wild partying" stupid. I was lucky to make it through with just a few close calls. I graduated in '88 so it was a bit of a different time. There is a LOT more education and awareness now. But I still don't think at that age you are really fully able to comprehend just how dangerous that behavior is, and how dangerous that random cute guy might be.  

I'm impressed her friends went to such lengths for her. ...if I was missing my own family would not even bother to call the police to see what was up with the investigation. 

[saber5055]

5 hours ago, TVbitch said:

I was pretty stupid in college. Not "sex worker/sugar baby" stupid, but "getting drunk, going off with strangers, hooking up, wild partying" stupid. I was lucky to make it through with just a few close calls. I graduated in '88 so it was a bit of a different time. There is a LOT more education and awareness now. But I still don't think at that age you are really fully able to comprehend just how dangerous that behavior is, and how dangerous that random cute guy might be.

I remember being an age when I was going to live forever. It's just recently that it's dawned on me that I could die any day, from a variety of things, natural and unnatural. But I distinctly remember those years, pre, during and after college, when I was golden. Thinking back, I was pretty lucky to make it this far. Lots of us did dumb things. Mackenzie was lucky to have people who cared about her. I'm sure they all feel guilty about her death though.

I wanted to ask that police guy, the one who said, "People disappear all the time on their own," to give me some concrete examples of people who voluntarily disappeared, and be able to prove they did it on purpose and are still alive.

I don't think he'd be able to come up with one, much less "all the time" multiple examples. So irritating, some of the attitudes these cops cop, just so they don't have to get out of their chairs and DO something.

Edited September 14, 2019 by saber5055

[Tabbygirl521]

I just have to say that Ashley and Kennedy are amazing and wonderful young women. 

I followed this case on websleuths and was a little frustrated when people yelled VICTIM SHAMING whenever someone pointed out that Mackenzie took some big risks. I certainly did some crazy things in my youth and I’m not sure I would have listened to anyone cautioning me, so I really don’t know how to get through to some people. Mainly I felt very sad to learn that so many young woman thing “sugaring” is a viable way to live a good life. I could understand it more if practiced by young women with fewer resources, but college students would seem to have better ways to ensure their future - and perhaps live safer lives. Sorry to sound judge-y but to me it feels like some man got this bright idea to glamorize what used to be called gold-digging. I’m all for people doing what they feel works for them but at the same time this doesn’t seem to me like a good way to “empower” women. Sure, they can supposedly walk away but I bet a lot of “daddies” don’t care to see their investment show too much independence    

I remain curious about Mackenzie as a person to see if there’s an obvious explanation for her choice to be a sugar baby. Im also wondering if this was going to be her first “arrangement.”

to be clear, she didn’t deserve to be harmed. And she had the right to live however she liked. This was just a tragedy all around. 

[Ohmo]

1 hour ago, Tabbygirl521 said:

I followed this case on websleuths and was a little frustrated when people yelled VICTIM SHAMING whenever someone pointed out that Mackenzie took some big risks.

That also drives me up the wall.  I understand wanting to support victims, but I don't think talking about risk is victim shaming.  At all.  In fact, I think NOT talking about risk has led more people to falsely assume that somehow they are going to magically be saved if they get themselves into a jam.  That just doesn't happen for everyone.

The conversation about the camera is an example.  Sure, they should have been real cameras, but they would have not stopped AJ from taking her if she hadn't willingly gotten into the car.  The cameras would have just recorded it.  The way to avoid the risk is to NOT be in a park at 3 am with someone you don't know well.

[Annber03]

4 hours ago, Tabbygirl521 said:

I just have to say that Ashley and Kennedy are amazing and wonderful young women. 

I loved the story at the end about their non-profit helping to find that young woman in Colorado. That's really cool. What a great way to honor their friend's memory. 

Quote

Mainly I felt very sad to learn that so many young woman thing “sugaring” is a viable way to live a good life. I could understand it more if practiced by young women with fewer resources, but college students would seem to have better ways to ensure their future - and perhaps live safer lives. Sorry to sound judge-y but to me it feels like some man got this bright idea to glamorize what used to be called gold-digging. I’m all for people doing what they feel works for them but at the same time this doesn’t seem to me like a good way to “empower” women. Sure, they can supposedly walk away but I bet a lot of “daddies” don’t care to see their investment show too much independence  

That's what I was wondering at first, too. 

Even if it had been low-income women doing that, though, that still seems a weird option to me. I know the economic situation is tough for many out there, believe me, I know very well. And just because one goes to college doesn't automatically mean things'll be easy for them, either-it can still be hard for college-educated people to get jobs, depending on their field and where they live and things of that sort, too. 

But yeah, I just...have to think there's far better ways women can handle their financial situation than going with something like that. I'd feel like I was taking advantage of the guy, and it just seems better, and smarter, to me for a woman to be able to take care of herself financially as best she can. I mean, what happens if these guys lose their money for some reason? Then what? They're just going to keep going from guy to guy, apparently, to keep them afloat in a particular lifestyle? That just sounds so pointless to me. 

Quote

I remain curious about Mackenzie as a person to see if there’s an obvious explanation for her choice to be a sugar baby. Im also wondering if this was going to be her first “arrangement.”

I wondered about that, too. She was referring to this guy as a friend, which, hey, people of different ages can be friends, sure...but come on, he's in his 60s, she said? And she's 20? Yeah. I'd be wondering just how long that "friends" thing will last. 

I liked those guys who were interviewed about working on that guy's house. I especially liked how after hearing about the chains and that that the guy wanted in there, they were like, "Well, this is creepy, let's get the hell out of here." Smart move. I just kept thinking about Fifty Shades of Grey during that whole bit. 

It's not surprising that this guy had other crimes in his past-somebody who goes to those extremes when murdering somebody, yeah, they've likely got a history already. But damn, as if this case wasn't disturbing enough already, then there's the investigators finding the child porn as well. Good lord. 

[LittleIggy]

The 21 year old who was the “sugar baby” expert made me roll my eyes. Yeah, I’m so sure that guy in his 60s pays her $1200/month to just hang out with him. 🙄

I agree that it isn’t victim blaming to point out the bad decisions Mackenzie made. Not meeting someone at a park in the wee hours of the morning is a no brainer.

[MsJamieDornan]

8 hours ago, Tabbygirl521 said:

Sorry to sound judge-y but to me it feels like some man got this bright idea to glamorize what used to be called gold-digging.

You're right.

And kids want to find easy ways to make money, rather than actually working.

[JudyObscure]

And now we have a new hit movie with J-Lo showing all the girls how cool it is to sell your body for money or just drug the guy's drink and roll him for his credit cards.  What would Josh say to J-Lo? 

[TVbitch]

I was just commenting on the 20/20 forum, which was basically a commercial for "Hustler" Friday night. 

JLo: "They were just doing what they had to to survive!!" No, JLo, the strippers are not folk heroes worthy of being glamorized in a hit movie. Those men did nothing wrong, and those women preyed on them, robbed them, and could have killed them.

11 hours ago, Annber03 said:

I liked those guys who were interviewed about working on that guy's house. I especially liked how after hearing about the chains and that that the guy wanted in there, they were like, "Well, this is creepy, let's get the hell out of here."

I wonder if they considered reporting to the police. I mean, the guy was not breaking any laws by asking them to build what was clearly going to be a rape room. But it seemd so super sketchy I might have reported it. Then with his background, the cops might have kept an eye on him. 

[walnutqueen]

1 hour ago, JudyObscure said:

And now we have a new hit movie with J-Lo showing all the girls how cool it is to sell your body for money or just drug the guy's drink and roll him for his credit cards.  What would Josh say to J-Lo? 

I'd love to see Josh's classic look of skepticism as J-Lo tried to explain her way out of this one.  Screw her and the perp who made bank on this.

[Ohmo]

1 hour ago, TVbitch said:

I wonder if they considered reporting to the police. I mean, the guy was not breaking any laws by asking them to build what was clearly going to be a rape room. But it seemd so super sketchy I might have reported it. Then with his background, the cops might have kept an eye on him. 

Unfortunately, I don't think reporting that would have done anything.  It is super sketchy as all get out, but at that point, AJ hadn't committed a crime.  The police may have been able to watch him for a little while, but unless he made a threat or an attempt, their hands would have been tied, and the cops would have eventually had to stop using those resources.  AJ would probably have simply waited the cops out.

[iMonrey]

Quote

 I understand wanting to support victims, but I don't think talking about risk is victim shaming.  At all.  In fact, I think NOT talking about risk has led more people to falsely assume that somehow they are going to magically be saved if they get themselves into a jam.  That just doesn't happen for everyone.

Exactly. Mackenzie is a cautionary tale. If anything good came come out of her death it's that others can learn from it.

[Lsk02]

Did anyone else notice the “sugar baby” interviewed said she had been doing it for 4.5 years, then later said she is 21 (she hesitated before answering and looks older, so I wasn’t sure what to think of that). So she started this line of “work” as a minor. I’m guessing the website didn’t know her real age at the time, but I’d think they could get in trouble for that. 

Edited September 16, 2019 by Lsk02

[UsernameFatigue]

This episode was sooooo frustrating on sooooo many levels! 

First of all, the young woman who claimed that this website gave her power? That if one client didn't give her what she wanted, she would go to another? That's not power lady, that is dependency. And what do you do when your sugar daddy finds a cheaper model, but you still have all your bills to pay? Honestly, this site has set women back generations. 

I am likely the first generation (I am 62) where it was common for women to go to college/university and have a career. I still had some friends who got married and had kids right out of high school, but it was way less common than for the women in my mother's generation. 

I remember Maya Angelou saying (paraphrasing here) that for her husband, work was like prison - he felt trapped. For her, working was like being let out of prison. She did not have to depend on anyone else. These women depending on what are virtual strangers for money is the opposite of power. Self sufficiency is power. 

Meeting someone at 2 in the morning in a park is just plain careless. I am not victim shaming, but in the end people have to look out for themselves, as no one is going to do it for them. It is too bad that there isn't a mandatory course in high school for teens to take that shows some of these scenarios (as it appears that many teens aren't addicted to Dateline like many of us are). Though there is always a certain percentage that will think it will never happen to them, if it made even some realize they need to be more careful, it might save a life or two. 

[Irlandesa]

On 9/14/2019 at 6:44 PM, Ohmo said:

I understand wanting to support victims, but I don't think talking about risk is victim shaming.  At all.  In fact, I think NOT talking about risk has led more people to falsely assume that somehow they are going to magically be saved if they get themselves into a jam.  That just doesn't happen for everyone.

I'm in the "it's victim blaming" camp. Sort of.  Especially when it's suddenly in conjunction with a specific crime. I don't think it's meant to teach people anything. 

I don't think not pointing out what others do wrong is giving people a false sense of security that they'll be rescued; rather, I think pointing out what she did "wrong" is unconsciously feeding into the "just world" phenomenon that something bad happened to someone because of something they did/some choice they made that "you" (the collective you") would never do so your world is safer than hers. It's self soothing.

In other words, I won't end up like McKenzie because I don't do sex work/go home with strangers/don't go out at night...etc.

People have been told it can be risky to go home with strangers yet people do it all the time and are fine.

On 9/14/2019 at 11:55 AM, TVbitch said:

I was pretty stupid in college. Not "sex worker/sugar baby" stupid, but "getting drunk, going off with strangers, hooking up, wild partying" stupid.

The brain doesn't fully form until people are 26.  It's very common for young people to feel invincible even if they logically know they're not. 

10 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Mackenzie is a cautionary tale. If anything good came come out of her death it's that others can learn from it.

If Dateline is a cautionary tale, it's one against marriage.

Edited September 16, 2019 by Irlandesa

[Whimsy]

16 hours ago, Lsk02 said:

Did anyone else notice the “sugar baby” interviewed said she had been doing it for 4.5 years, then later said she is 21 (she hesitated before answering and looks older, so I wasn’t sure what to think of that). So she started this line of “work” as a minor. I’m guessing the website didn’t know her real age at the time, but I’d think they could get in trouble for that. 

I think it’s more likely she’s lying about her age now since those “sugar daddies” like them young. 

I don't think it’s victim blaming to recognize the unnecessary risks Mackenzie took and I DO think it’s helpful to point those out so hopefully other young girls can learn from it. Kids tend to think they’re invincible. Recognizing risky behavior/actions will hopefully save someone else from making the same choices. When it comes down to it, it’s obviously the perpetrators fault this happened, but if kids think twice about meeting strangers at 2am in an isolated place- that’s a good thing. 

[Ohmo]

On 9/15/2019 at 8:33 PM, Lsk02 said:

Did anyone else notice the “sugar baby” interviewed said she had been doing it for 4.5 years, then later said she is 21

I thought she said she was 27, not 21.  The episode said that she also worked in the sex industry before she became a sugar baby.  Maybe she started working as a sex worker at 21?

[12catcrazy]

On 9/16/2019 at 11:28 AM, Whimsy said:

I think it’s more likely she’s lying about her age now since those “sugar daddies” like them young. 

I don't think it’s victim blaming to recognize the unnecessary risks Mackenzie took and I DO think it’s helpful to point those out so hopefully other young girls can learn from it. Kids tend to think they’re invincible. Recognizing risky behavior/actions will hopefully save someone else from making the same choices. When it comes down to it, it’s obviously the perpetrators fault this happened, but if kids think twice about meeting strangers at 2am in an isolated place- that’s a good thing. 

I guess I'm going to go beyond victim blaming and suggest that going to meet a stranger in an isolated park in the wee hours of the morning should get it's own category in The Darwin Awards.  The trouble is, you can tell some young people "Don't do that - you might get hurt/murdered!" and they don't think it will happen to them.  Back in the 70s, my younger sister used to hitchhike and once my father even caught her and gave her holy hell and grounded her.  She went right out and did it again - until some psycho drove her to a deserted place and attempted to rape her.  She had a small pocket knife on her and stabbed the guy in the hand, which enabled her to run like hell.  Guess what?  She never hitchhiked again after that.    

[Annber03]

Yikes. Thank goodness your sister was able to get away.

Yeah, there is no way in hell I'd hitchhike. Too many horror stories, both fictional and real. 

[Tabbygirl521]

It’s not victim-blaming to point out risky behavior. Blame always lies with the actual perp. But why increase the odds that a horrible outcome could occur? 

[car54]

Tonight's episode

[cooksdelight]

Is this on at 10 or 9 eastern time? 

[Minivanessa]

I feel like an outlier here, because I think she's considered to be America's Sweetheart or something, but I have a low tolerance for Savannah Guthrie. I'll pass on the Epstein episode and glean the wisdom from it that is shared by the discerning members of this forum. Thanks in advance.