All Episodes Discussion

[Kiss my mutt]

I think it looks like she had a nose job too but I would think people would remember her nose being bandaged up though. 

[Crashcourse]

4 hours ago, 12catcrazy said:

I absolutely hated Kaitlyn's lawyer - just want to smush his face in my cats' litter box.  But yeah, he seems really sure of himself and Kaitlyn is a very attractive young woman and the lawyer is going to make the jury hate the cheatin' boyfriend's guts by the end of the trial.  My guess is that he's going to say that Kaitlyn was being framed and we'll just have to see what reason he's going to use to convince the jury that Colin (or his hitman) did it.  

I hated that smug assed lawyer.  What a punchable face he had.

[JudyObscure]

10 hours ago, Crashcourse said:

I hated that smug assed lawyer.  What a punchable face he had.

I thought  Keith might actually do that. If ever a voice contained an eye roll it was this lawyer's.  You knew he was planning to make the jury feel like they were fools if they didn't believe his theory.

[GiandujaPie]

That defense lawyer seemed so sure of himself and yes I agree he had a punchable face. I always wonder why these defense attorneys go on tv and proclaim their clients innocent when all they have to do is just say the prosecution can't prove their case. To say unequivocally that he has proof that Kaitlin wasn't there is a pretty bold statement when he could more credibly just say that there is no actual proof that it was Kaitlin's SUV on the video. However, we know juries don't actually expect defense lawyers to come up with proof as Casey Anthony's lawyer made a bold allegation that her father molested her and was the actual culprit and never provided proof but it was enough to get her acquitted. 

The cast of characters she met down in Costa Rica was pretty funny. Love how that one guy took pictures of all her documents, including her Covid vaccine card LOL. And did he say he waved to her as she was taken away by the police? 

Kaitlin changed her appearance so much I'm wondering how they actually found her. Did they really just circulate her photo among the yoga community? 

[Ohmo]

On 9/17/2022 at 5:45 PM, Annber03 said:

Seriously, ladies. It's not worth it. No guy is ever worth this nonsense.)

Can I also say how much I dislike her defense attorney as well?  I think she's definitely guilty.  Colin may well be involved, too.  Could be or could not be, I'm not entirely sure, but there's no way that Kaitlyn isn't involved.  There just isn't.

[Ohmo]

And sorry Mr. Obnoxious Defense Lawyer, but you already gave away the element of surprise.  If I were the prosecution, I'd be pulling in every intern I could find and telling them, "He thinks he has something.  Find what he's talking about."

Any way you look at it, either Colin and Kaitlyn were in on it together, or Kaitlyn did it herself.  She's not innocent.

[Ohmo]

On 9/17/2022 at 6:37 PM, Irlandesa said:

He was arguing the police jumped to conclusions based on the "crazy jealous women" trope and that the cops don't actually have much evidence.  Most of their suspicions are based on the fact that she had a similar-looking car and went to Costa Rica.  I think she's guilty but he strikes me as a decent lawyer in that he put in question the evidence the cops have. 

I'm with you from a legal standpoint, but I hope the actual seated jury doesn't fall for it.  Factually, it wasn't a robbery.  The bike was ditched some 70 feet from the apartment.  The three people who knew that bike had any value were Mo, Kaitlyn, and Colin.  Mo was killed.  That leaves Kaitlyn and Colin. The bike was clear misdirection.  A person interested in robbery would take the bike. Carefully ditching it is an acknowledgment of its value.  The jury will have to use critical thinking skills, but the links are there to be made.

The fact that Mo didn't lock the door and the fact that she was killed in the bathroom also point to Kaitlyn. Mo could have let Kaitlyn in, thinking they could reasonably discuss the situation. The fact that Mo was in the bathroom points to familiarity, like they might have been talking and Mo goes into the bathroom to get something while talking. Kaitlyn then follows her.  If you're confronted with an intruder, a bathroom seems like an odd escape route.  Most bathrooms have no windows or small windows for obvious reasons.

I can see Colin not being involved, but I've also watched enough Dateline to have seen pairings put plans into motion that defy logic.  Colin being on his motorcycle means he wasn't there for the murder, but it doesn't mean that he didn't have knowledge of what Kaitlyn might do.  His police interviews also point to him trying to protect Kaitlyn.

Hopefully the prosecutor will file lesser charges as well.  I don't want Obnoxious Defense Attorney to be able to get her off by pinning the whole thing on Colin.  Kaitlyn is not innocent, and the jury will need room to work if they can't get to murder.

And again, all prosecution interns, law students, and whomever else they have need to now be studying all evidence with a magnifying glass based on what Obnoxious Defense Attorney claimed.

[iMonrey]

Not much of a mystery in "Wreckage" once they started digging into Reggie's past, but it's one of those episodes that fills you with fury. It's no wonder the South Padre police didn't want to be interviewed after letting a serial rapist and murderer go scot free. 

[Irlandesa]

The South Padre police wanted him charged.  It was the DA who didn't press charges. 

It was the Plano cops who dropped the ball first by asking an 18 year old if she's sure she didn't like to be choked out and then by refusing to issue a warrant when they got called by another department. 

In the recorded call between the cop and the Plano victim where he now told her he was going to be her ally, I loved her sarcastic-sounding (to my ears) mmhmmm. 

And here's the problem.  Cops so often go with their gut even when their gut is wrong. Do we think he learned?  Probably not.

Edited September 24, 2022 by Irlandesa

[Annber03]

Last night's episode should be shown to people who always go, "Why don't women come forward more often? Why do they wait so long?" This is why. I felt for the girl who was getting increasingly frustrated during her interview with the cop, because of his refusal to believe her. 

I love, too, how they just decided this guy couldn't be guilty because he'd passed a polygraph test. I mean, we don't allow polygraphs in court precisely because the argument, rightly so, is that they're not the most accurate barometer of one's guilt or innocence. So why rely on them so heavily elsewhere in an investigation? Why do we even still do them at all, really, when we know they can be hit or miss? This guy had no remorse or guilt over what he did. Of course he may have an easier time passing a polygraph as a result. Hard to come off as nervous or anxious when you feel you've done nothing wrong. 

That footage from the hotel, of the woman running away after her assault, with him just casually following behind afterward, was chilling. My heart broke for all these women, and for Molly and Megan's parents as well. Molly's mom's voice on that 911 call was gutwrenching.  I liked the comments from the father at the end, too, about who's responsible for raping someone. Louder for the people in the back. 

Megan looked a LOT like her mom. 

On a much lighter note, I joked to my mom that I was getting a kick out of how many times any of the people being interviewed seemed to repeat what Josh said. Like when he was talking to the parents of one of the victims at one point: "Because saying it aloud makes it true." And then the mom goes, "Because saying it aloud makes it true." That sort of thing happened at least, like, five or six times throughout the episode, I was like, "Is there an echo in here, o...?" :p. 

[TVbitch]

I mean, seriously, how often IS the woman actually lying about it? Almost NEVER. What possible motive could there be to put themself through that?! A woman scorned cuz something "didn't turn out the way she wanted" like the cop suggested? Puhhlease. Like Reggie telling the cops his victim was mad that he would not let her stay over, and them actually entertaining that as a reason she would concoct the whole thing. So stupid!!

[Ohmo]

I'd be interested to see if that Detective Hoffman has his job after this airs.  I know he's no longer working in the sex crimes unit, but it would give me pause to have him on my police force at all. And I would have rather NOT heard from the Captain (or whatever he was) instead of hearing what he actually said.

[rlc]

Wow- I wish I was even slightly surprised by how far these cops bent over backwards to not believe women (girls). 

[Blissfool]

I didnt catch the Plano victim's age, just remember she was a senior in high school so she must've been 17 or 18...are parents not allowed in the interrogation room? I can understand why not if she's a suspected criminal, but she was a victim. I'm sure Hoffman wouldn't have had the gall to say some of those things if her parents were in the room.

ETA: Interestingly, the first two episodes of the season are based in Texas, my home state. I live 20 minutes away from South Padre Island. So ashamed that our DA chose not to prosecute.

Edited September 26, 2022 by Blissfool

[Irlandesa]

6 hours ago, Blissfool said:

I didnt catch the Plano victim's age, just remember she was a senior in high school so she must've been 17 or 18...are parents not allowed in the interrogation room?

She was 18.  Her dad was around because the cop later spoke with him.  I'm guessing they didn't want a parent in there because it might be hard for her to open up about being sexually assaulted with her dad there. 

Edited September 26, 2022 by Irlandesa

[Blissfool]

1 hour ago, Irlandesa said:

She was 18.  Her dad was around because the cop later spoke with him.  I'm guessing they didn't want a parent in there because it might be hard for her to open up about sexually assaulted with her dad there. 

Yes. I remember that. Then the investigator told the dad that a jury would probably not believe the girl. I was surprised the father didn't raise a stink about that. She needed a better advocate, be it her mother, or a victim's advocate assigned by the court (or whomever is in charge of assigning those.)

[Hank3]

The updated footage of Reggie in court; wow, he looked noticeably different (i.e. they get fed pretty well in prison).

[DonnaMae]

Molly was dating Reggie in college, so he obviously was fine then.  I wonder what changed him into a rapist/killer.

[pdlinda]

2 hours ago, Hank3 said:

The updated footage of Reggie in court; wow, he looked noticeably different (i.e. they get fed pretty well in prison).

I worked in criminal defense for MANY YEARS.

Prison food is not what probably put weight on Reggie.  Some inmates never eat prison food.

From my experience, inmates usually have family members/friends who contribute $$$ (there is a limit but it can be high) on their books each month for a HUGE VARIETY of canteen foods (and other supplies) they may need.  There are no fresh fruits/veggies (although I've seen bananas/oranges on prison menus) in the assortment, only highly processed foods (of all kinds, types and varieties) usually high in sugar/carbs.

Also, there is no cash availability in prison; only bartering commissary items with fellow inmates for "favors" performed by one to another.  That may also be a factor in Reggie's weight gain.

[pdlinda]

1 hour ago, DonnaMae said:

Molly was dating Reggie in college, so he obviously was fine then.  I wonder what changed him into a rapist/killer.

Usually, the defense lawyer(s) will retain a forensic psychologist to do a comprehensive psych eval on someone charged with a serious crime.  There are a multitude of psych exams given to the defendant and HOURS of interviews.  The report contains background info and the psych usually has contact with family/friends.

A diagnosis is provided (I've never seen a case where there was no diagnosis).

Sometimes, after the defense's psych does an evaluation, the State (prosecutor) hires their own psychologist to perform a battery of tests and interview the defendant.  Of course, each report sees the defendant from a DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE.

These reports are available to all parties:  the defense, prosecutor, probation dept, and court.

They are usually sealed after trial but I believe the answers to your question would be found in them.  The defense usually uses the info in the psych evaluations at sentencing or for the purposes of plea agreement negotiations.

Edited September 26, 2022 by pdlinda

[Hank3]

18 minutes ago, pdlinda said:

I worked in criminal defense for MANY YEARS.

Prison food is not what probably put weight on Reggie.  Some inmates never eat prison food.

From my experience, inmates usually have family members/friends who contribute $$$ (there is a limit but it can be high) on their books each month for a HUGE VARIETY of canteen foods (and other supplies) they may need.  There are no fresh fruits/veggies (although I've seen bananas/oranges on prison menus) in the assortment, only highly processed foods (of all kinds, types and varieties) usually high in sugar/carbs.

Also, there is no cash availability in prison; only bartering commissary items with fellow inmates for "favors" performed by one to another.  That may also be a factor in Reggie's weight gain.

Appreciate the insight!

[EtheltoTillie]

19 hours ago, pdlinda said:

I worked in criminal defense for MANY YEARS.

Prison food is not what probably put weight on Reggie.  Some inmates never eat prison food.

From my experience, inmates usually have family members/friends who contribute $$$ (there is a limit but it can be high) on their books each month for a HUGE VARIETY of canteen foods (and other supplies) they may need.  There are no fresh fruits/veggies (although I've seen bananas/oranges on prison menus) in the assortment, only highly processed foods (of all kinds, types and varieties) usually high in sugar/carbs.

Also, there is no cash availability in prison; only bartering commissary items with fellow inmates for "favors" performed by one to another.  That may also be a factor in Reggie's weight gain.

Maybe I watch too many TV shows, but don’t people also smuggle things in through corrupt guards?  Isn’t that really a major thing?  

Edited September 27, 2022 by EtheltoTillie

[pdlinda]

4 hours ago, EtheltoTillie said:

Maybe I watch too many TV shows, but don’t people also smuggle things in through corrupt guards?  Isn’t that really a major thing?  

It could be and, for sure, it happens. 

I don't want to get too much "into the weeds" about the societal structure of prison.

However, suffice it to say that every racial group (Hispanics have several categories of racial groups from different areas) has a "gang structure" that the prison admin is acutely aware of and "works with."

[LuvMyShows]

On 9/19/2022 at 12:57 PM, 12catcrazy said:

I absolutely hated Kaitlyn's lawyer - just want to smush his face in my cats' litter box.  

Love the imagery...and completely agree!

On 9/17/2022 at 5:45 PM, Annber03 said:

Her defense attorney's explanation for why his client couldn't be guilty was weird, too. 

Yeah, he said a lot of stuff that I can't remember right now, and none of it seemed to really have anything to do with her guilt.  But one thing I do remember that supposedly proved she wasn't guilty is something along the lines of "When she left the country, there was no active warrant for her arrest."  Well, so what?  Of course there was no active warrant yet...she hopped the first plane outta there before the cops were onto her.  She's not on trial for fleeing the country with an active warrant...she's on trial for murder, and I hate that all the magician hand waving, look-over-there-and-not-over-here stuff actually works with juries that don't use critical thinking skills.

On 9/26/2022 at 12:50 PM, DonnaMae said:

Molly was dating Reggie in college, so he obviously was fine then.  I wonder what changed him into a rapist/killer.

Oh I doubt that he was "fine" then.  Maybe his outbursts didn't reach criminal levels.  Or maybe they did, and no one has come forward yet.

On 9/24/2022 at 8:21 AM, Ohmo said:

I can see Colin not being involved, but I've also watched enough Dateline to have seen pairings put plans into motion that defy logic.  Colin being on his motorcycle means he wasn't there for the murder, but it doesn't mean that he didn't have knowledge of what Kaitlyn might do.  His police interviews also point to him trying to protect Kaitlyn.

IIRC, him inviting her to go do something at that point was unusual, hence her friend coming over to try to discourage her.  Their get-together provides 2 things: an exact timing so Kaitlyn can know when Mo arrives at her apartment, and an alibi for Colin on his easily viewable motorcycle.

On 9/18/2022 at 1:10 PM, JudyObscure said:

I thought Kaitlyn should take it up with Colin, not Mo, who wasn't doing anything wrong in my eyes.

I shouldn't be amazed anymore, but I still am, at how freaking often the scorned woman goes all ballistic on the "other woman" rather than blaming it on her lying, cheating, cold, dead-beatin', two-timing, double-dealing, mean, mistreatin' loser guy (shout out to Patty Loveless!). 

[Irlandesa]

2 hours ago, LuvMyShows said:

IRC, him inviting her to go do something at that point was unusual, hence her friend coming over to try to discourage her.  Their get-together provides 2 things: an exact timing so Kaitlyn can know when Mo arrives at her apartment, and an alibi for Colin on his easily viewable motorcycle.

I don't think it was unusual.  It sounds like him being with someone else initially gave her pause but they had continued on and off ever since their first fling. 

[LuvMyShows]

2 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

I don't think it was unusual.  It sounds like him being with someone else initially gave her pause but they had continued on and off ever since their first fling. 

I thought they made a specific point of saying that it must have been unusual or significant, because her friend didn't just call her to try to talk her out of it, she actually went over to her house to talk to her about it.

[Irlandesa]

6 hours ago, LuvMyShows said:

I thought they made a specific point of saying that it must have been unusual or significant, because her friend didn't just call her to try to talk her out of it, she actually went over to her house to talk to her about it.

It has been a few weeks since I saw this one but she was from San Fran and staying at the friend's house while in Austin for a race.  That's why I didn't think it was unusual.  She saw him when they were in the same town. 

I think her friend not wanting her to hang out with him was mostly a general "don't play with a guy in a relationship" energy.

[mostlylurking]

On 9/18/2022 at 9:47 AM, JudyObscure said:

Yes, and good lawyers know how to get stupid jurors all riled up and distracted from the facts. 

You know this guy is good because when Keith asked him “so you can prove that wasn’t her car at the scene” he said “I don’t have to prove anything.”  That’s so right.  The burden of proof is on the prosecution, not the defendant who is innocent until PROVEN guilty.

Aww, I kind of felt bad for surfer dude.  He got duped again after having his heart broken.  He seemed like an ok guy.  I can’t imagine living my entire life in a beach community like that, it probably never even occurred to him to put on a shirt.  Island life!

I feel like before technology and tracking and cell phones it would be pretty easy to disappear into some small town like this one and never be heard from again.  Nowadays, no.  I don’t know why people even try.  Eventually, it will catch up to you.  The days where people go missing without a trace are gone.

Edited September 30, 2022 by mostlylurking

[DonnaMae]

19 minutes ago, mostlylurking said:

The days where people go missing without a trace are gone.

Maybe not. You could probably leave your phone at home, fly to Brazil, throw your passport in the ocean, and flee into the Amazon jungle.

[CrazyInAlabama]

26 minutes ago, DonnaMae said:

Maybe not. You could probably leave your phone at home, fly to Brazil, throw your passport in the ocean, and flee into the Amazon jungle.

There are also a lot of countries that don't extradict to the U.S., even for murder.   Also, a missing adult is considered able to disappear if they want to.   If you're in the U.S., willing to get another identity, and never contact anyone from your past life, I bet you could still disappear.  

[sainte-chapelle]

On 9/17/2022 at 5:52 PM, JudyObscure said:

I thought Gavin's wife Lisa, his sister Tara, and Keith Morrison all looked just alike.

Re: Gavin Smith murder case. Apple doesnt fall far from the tree in that family: https://www.cheatsheet.com/entertainment/temptation-island-evan-smith-suing-usa-network-and-showrunner.html/

https://www.cheatsheet.com/entertainment/temptation-island-star-morgan-lolar-accuses-fiance-evan-smith-of-cheating-with-21-year-old-ig-models.html/

Long story short he dumped his long term GF on a reality TV show to hook up with someone else.  New girl said he lied constantly about his finances, stole money from her, said he had all these businesses, said his EX was a horrible person and he supported her financially etc. None of it was true.  His EX supported him during the entire 10 year relationship. New girl caught him sleeping with instagram models. Constantly uses his father's murder to gain sympathy and trust.  He is a real sociopath.  Good times.

Edited October 2, 2022 by sainte-chapelle

[Court]

I'm watching the Molly case and I'm infuriated with how that detective treated Melissa. WTF. This is why women don't fucking come forward! That detective is also to blame for the resulting rapes and murders. I'm also mad at the prosecutor in Katie's case. 

[Annber03]

So just how many stories has "Dateline" done about wives dying in bathtubs/showers? Seems like that's been a rather common type of storyline on here over the years.

But WOW, this Bob guy. What a piece of work. Using his wife's insurance money to pay his defense team. The freaking pool party. Taking his kids on a super expensive trip to Disney, knowing full well this was something Stacy wasn't allowed to do - and of course, it had nothing to do with giving his kids a nice time and everything to do with showing off and sticking it to his late wife. Stacy's family had already made it clear he wasn't invested in his family well before Stacy's death, after all - when he was telling Susan about Stacy being an "absentee parent", he was telling on himself big time. No wonder he felt he could flaunt the rules as he did, he sure seemed to get away with an awful lot of shit for way too long.

And then Stephanie's* story. Good god, that was horrifying. And the fact he used her grief, and their "bonding" over it, as a pretext to lure her to his house, just makes it all the sicker. And this guy has kids. I'd already figured he'd done it early on, because I had the same thought as the officer who was like, "If your wife doesn't come to pick up the kids, why don't you go home and check on her right then and there? Or at the very least, go home to confront her?" 

But man, the more we learned about this guy and his super creepy, horrifying, asshole behavior...I mean...he might as well have walked around with a flashing neon sign screaming, "I AM GUILTY!" I mean, I do agree with the defense attorney that you can't always judge someone's guilt or innocence based on how they act on a 911 call, and if that had been the main or only thing the prosecution had hung its case on, I would've agreed that alone wouldn't be strong enough evidence of his guilt. And it is true that just because Susan told Stacy about the affair, that doesn't mean she confronted him afterward.

But while it's true you can't determine one's guilt or innocence based solely off a 911 call, at least most of the time, it's also true that I think people can tell the difference between genuine emotion of any sort, be it shock or tears or anger or whatever, and the kind of "emotion" that comes with people trying to overact and put on a show. 

And even if Stacy hadn't confronted Bob about what Susan had told her, I mean...the guy's a creep who's willing to rape women and lie and break the rules/laws whenever he wants. Does he really need an actual motive to murder his wife? He could just decide he was done with her and that would've been motive enough for someone like him. Besides that, the timing is just too convenient. Stacy learns about this affair, and very shortly afterward she's dead. Not hard to make a connection there. 

I liked that Susan reached out to express sympathy to Stacy. I certainly understand feeling hesitant to tell someone about something that awful, especially if you are the "other woman", albeit unknowingly. But still, it was good to see a story where the women, instead of going after each other, spent their time connecting over dumping on the jerk who played them both. 

*Seriously, so, what, did Bob just have a thing for women whose names began with an "S", or...? That was an odd similarity. 

The name of the group struck me strangely at first, but I really like that strangulation prevention group's aims. I hadn't really thought about how often or how easy it would be to miss some of the signs of strangulation, but I really like how they explained that here with the guy who worked with that group. If they can help educate people further, great. 

I too am rather surprised at how fast the jury came back with their verdict, but in this case, yeah, they got it right. Would've been interesting to see Bob's face once he realized he was actually going to have to face serious consequences for his actions for a change. I just feel so bad for the kids. I hope they're doing okay. 

[rlc]

8 hours ago, Annber03 said:

So just how many stories has "Dateline" done about wives dying in bathtubs/showers? Seems like that's been a rather common type of storyline on here over the years.

Seriously! I spent half the episode wondering if I’ve seen this case before, or are there just that many men murdering their wives in the tub/shower.

[Madding crowd]

The Institute for Strangulation Prevention was a very strange name and a very specific group. I also thought I saw this before because of the bathtub but the rest of it was new to me.

[TVbitch]

I have a feeling Bob will appeal his conviction. Sad that there has to be an Institute for Strangulation Prevention. 

I do think the detective, as kind as he was, dropped the ball in not collecting evidence at the scene. He admitted he did notice some things were odd, like the floor and washrag being dry, the undisturbed towel and bottles, etc. I'm sure there were other things they would have found if they had a forensic team in. 

[iMonrey]

Quote

The name of the group struck me strangely at first, but I really like that strangulation prevention group's aims. I hadn't really thought about how often or how easy it would be to miss some of the signs of strangulation,

When the expert was explaining that strangling someone was the best way to murder them I thought "Well don't tell people that! Some people probably watch this show for pointers!"

[UsernameFatigue]

On 10/1/2022 at 5:56 PM, TVbitch said:

I have a feeling Bob will appeal his conviction. Sad that there has to be an Institute for Strangulation Prevention. 

I do think the detective, as kind as he was, dropped the ball in not collecting evidence at the scene. He admitted he did notice some things were odd, like the floor and washrag being dry, the undisturbed towel and bottles, etc. I'm sure there were other things they would have found if they had a forensic team in. 

I thought that was odd, too. The one thing that stuck out to me in the pictures of the bathroom was that the toilet seat was up.  Bob said he left the house in the morning and didn't go back into the house until he brought the kids home mid afternoon when he found Stacy. So Stacy, though she supposedly used the bath tub, never used the toilet? Not likely. But Bob did, and left the seat up. 

What I found most infuriating was the sloppy job done by the medical examiner with regards to Stacy's autopsy. It seems to me that if the first examiner is unable to determine a cause of death in a 44 year old woman, maybe there should be a second opinion automatically? The fact that she had over 100 (I think it was) petechiae hemorrhages which the original examiner called "a few" seems pretty negligent right there. And many other signs including the defensive wounds on her hands, the amount of bruising on her body, etc. 

Edited October 3, 2022 by UsernameFatigue

[Ohmo]

On 9/30/2022 at 11:04 PM, Annber03 said:

I too am rather surprised at how fast the jury came back with their verdict, but in this case, yeah, they got it right. Would've been interesting to see Bob's face once he realized he was actually going to have to face serious consequences for his actions for a change. I just feel so bad for the kids. I hope they're doing okay. 

Thank goodness the jury didn't fall for the defense's BS.  I envision the jury walking into the jury room and saying "He's guilty.  Time to fill out some paperwork."  I think Bob screwed up by staging her body in the shower.  That scenario (plus the watch) sent up red flags.

I kept thinking of what was said to describe Stacy...that she wanted children, not so much that she wanted a husband, except to make the children possible.  Using a sperm bank would have saved her life.

I thought Bob was gross, and I don't mean gross because he was creepy and murdered Stacy.  I thought he was also just generally gross, even if he hadn't done anything to anyone.

[pdlinda]

7 hours ago, Ohmo said:

I thought Bob was gross, and I don't mean gross because he was creepy and murdered Stacy.  I thought he was also just generally gross, even if he hadn't done anything to anyone.

Most definitely!  He had a slovenly, disgusting appearance (sorry to be so harsh, but in this case, UGH!) and didn't have ANY characteristics that were endearing.  That would include essentially refusing to earn a living.  

I watched those "hook-up" women from the dating sites get involved with him and was glad they severed early, although, of course, one was raped, so that was a tragedy.

Such an incorrigible reprobate...may he ROT in prison!

Actually, once he establishes a reliable source of "funding" from family for commissary (probably drawing on whatever was left of Stacey's life insurance after paying his lawyer's bills), he'll probably do quite well. 

He'll pay others (with commissary) to do his chores and am sure WON'T WORK A DAY!  He'll probably spend his days sleeping late, watching TV, spinning his "yarns" and playing cards and dominoes.  He'll also have phone access and, in some states, not sure about Florida, he can pay for video visits.

The nature of his crime is of NO CONSEQUENCE whatsoever in the prison hierarchy of criminal behavior.  It's just very "cut-and-dry".

That prison will probably be a manageable "retirement" environment for Bob evokes further outrage and contempt for him from all decent people.

Edited October 3, 2022 by pdlinda

[izabella]

8 hours ago, pdlinda said:

Actually, once he establishes a reliable source of "funding" from family for commissary (probably drawing on whatever was left of Stacey's life insurance after paying his lawyer's bills), he'll probably do quite well. 

I don't think he gets to keep the life insurance after he's convicted of murdering her.  At least, I hope not!   I can't imagine an insurance company not suing to get that money back.

[iMonrey]

Quote

I kept thinking of what was said to describe Stacy...that she wanted children, not so much that she wanted a husband, except to make the children possible.  Using a sperm bank would have saved her life.

Yeah, we've all met a Stacy. It sounded like at least her sister or her best friend thought her husband was a creep and Stacy stuck her head in the sand because she was driven exclusively by her desire to be a mommy. It's sad.

[12catcrazy]

Stacy would have been better off using a sperm bank for sure - she would've also had one less mouth to feed (her husband).   And God only knows what abuse Bob heaped on her even before the murder.  

Whenever I watch a Dateline or 48 Hours like this I really wish that schools would actually teach young people about domestic abuse and the signs of what to look for and that it can happen to people of all economic backgrounds.   There should also be more public resources made to people trying to get out of an abusive relationship.  Unfortunately, the victim is usually in the worst danger when they decide to leave.  

[Ellee]

Sorry, everyone. I just have to say this regarding Lori Vallow’s trial being suspended indefinitely.

OF COURSE SHE’S CRAZY!  SHE KILLED HER OWN CHILDREN!  SHE STILL NEEDS TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE.  NOW  NOT LATER.

THEY WERE HER CHILDREN!  
 

[pdlinda]

38 minutes ago, Ellee said:

Sorry, everyone. I just have to say this regarding Lori Vallow’s trial being suspended indefinitely.

OF COURSE SHE’S CRAZY!  SHE KILLED HER OWN CHILDREN!  SHE STILL NEEDS TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE.  NOW  NOT LATER.

THEY WERE HER CHILDREN!  
 

The question of legal "competency" involves the defendant (Lori) not being able to assist her attorney(s) in preparing for trial.  It has little to do with any treatable mental health conditions.  If she has a "personality disorder" (like antisocial personality disorder) they are harder (if not impossible) to treat so she can be "restored to competency."  

The Court works with the correctional health unit of the jail where Lori is housed to "restore her to competency."  That means they work with her on a proscribed schedule to establish her knowledge of how the criminal justice system works.  There are court-appointed psychiatrists who routinely evaluate Lori for "malingering" (trying to FAKE her inability to work with her lawyers). In our State we have 3 evaluators for such a defendant.  If 2 of the 3  find "malingering" Lori will be tossed out of that system and her trial will be put back on the criminal calendar.

There are many legal maneuvers that may be used by the defense (like hiring their own psych evaluators to dispute the findings of the court-appointed psychs) that may prolong the process further.

In some cases, the restoration process can take YEARS!  If at the end of every attempt by the parties to restore Lori, she is found to be permanently incompetent (unable to assist her attorney(s), she will be sent to a State Psych Hospital and remain there.  The State Psych Hospital in our State is no "bed of roses" compared with being in a psych unit at the prisons (reserved for inmates who are "competent" but too mentally ill to function in general population in our prisons).  If anyone recalls seeing "One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest" that would be somewhat similar to conditions at a State Psych Hospital (of course I guess there are some exceptions but I never saw any).

In Lori's case, her murder charges (in my State) have no time limit (statute of limitations) so if she's deemed permanently incompetent and she somehow manages to make progress, she can always be re-evaluated for competency and, regardless of how many years that may take, her case would be put back on the criminal calendar.

[Ellee]

Thank you, @pdlinda, for taking the time to explain everything.  
 

I can’t understand how anyone can choose murdering their babies (and fathers of said babies).  I just can’t.  
 

I can’t even kill a fly.  

[iMonrey]

"A Cool Desert Morning" - the fact that the husband took the alford plea pretty much convinces me of his guilt. Otherwise, I had my doubts. Susan had a history of mental illness and a previous suicide attempt. We've all seen the families who refuse to believe their loved one committed suicide, the Winters family seemed to fit that bill. Just because the last time they saw her she seemed fine doesn't mean she was incapable of harming herself. And how do you force someone to drink that much anti-freeze?

What was really compelling to me was the daughter, who was so insistent that her mother committed suicide. Unlike the parents or the brother, the daughter lived with her mother day in and day out and would have been the best judge of her mental state at the time of her death. 

I don't know. I was really on the fence until the end because I thought the episode skewed heavily towards the Winters' POV, and some of the "experts" seemed like crackpots. 

[TVbitch]

Wow, I bet the family spent over a million on all that. And then to be so disappointed at the end. Both the daughters and the relatives seemed very adamant and it wasn't that cut and dried to me. He clearly wanted her money though. 

[UsernameFatigue]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

"A Cool Desert Morning" - the fact that the husband took the alford plea pretty much convinces me of his guilt. Otherwise, I had my doubts. Susan had a history of mental illness and a previous suicide attempt. We've all seen the families who refuse to believe their loved one committed suicide, the Winters family seemed to fit that bill. Just because the last time they saw her she seemed fine doesn't mean she was incapable of harming herself. And how do you force someone to drink that much anti-freeze?

What was really compelling to me was the daughter, who was so insistent that her mother committed suicide. Unlike the parents or the brother, the daughter lived with her mother day in and day out and would have been the best judge of her mental state at the time of her death. 

I don't know. I was really on the fence until the end because I thought the episode skewed heavily towards the Winters' POV, and some of the "experts" seemed like crackpots. 

Didn't they say that they thought the husband put the antifreeze in her drink? They were drinking that night, so it would have been easy enough. And it makes sense that when Susan was passed out but had not passed away, Brent googled to find out how long it would take to die from antifreeze poisoning. And then realized it wasn't going to happen right away.

I also agree with Susan's father. Why on earth would you kill yourself by drinking antifreeze? Susan was a lawyer, and lawyers are often A type personalities. I doubt she would choose that method of suicide without first researching that it would be a slow, painful death. She certainly had other methods available, including I would think her own meds.

Two things that jumped out at me, and always makes me suspicious of the spouse. First of all when the paramedics were working on Susan, he was already telling them that she tried to commit suicide. Who does that? Unless you are trying divert suspicion from yourself, right away. 

The second was when Brent claimed (bragged) that  just a few days earlier that they had sex, and not only that, but Susan had had a trifecta of orgasms. Not likely. I am always suspicious when a husband in a lousy marriage claims that just before his wife died,  they had sex, and fantastic sex at that.  Barf. It is pretty much always a big red flag for me. I love that they included the reaction of the women in I think it was the prosecutor's office. What a pig. 

I don't necessarily think that the oldest daughter was being truthful about her mother's state of mind before her death, given the plans her mother had made for the near future,. I do think she was desperate to hold on to the one parent she had remaining. 

I also don't believe that Brent took the Alford plea to save his daughters from a trial, other than it would have exposed more of his dirty laundry. But it certainly wasn't because he was not guilty and sparing them. 

Was it Susan's sister in law (sitting with her brother) who said she had never heard of an Alford plea? Right away I said out loud, "She obviously doesn't watch Dateline!" 

This is another case though of a murderer who would have gone free if not for the family's persistence and in this case deep pockets. The fact that the medical examiners office did not know that Susan could not have been killed by the antifreeze right away is rather disturbing. I realize as the expert said that they aren't toxicologists, but should a toxicologist not be brought in, in cases like this, to explain what seemed to me should have been a pretty big point? 

Edited October 8, 2022 by UsernameFatigue

[Ohmo]

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

What was really compelling to me was the daughter, who was so insistent that her mother committed suicide. Unlike the parents or the brother, the daughter lived with her mother day in and day out and would have been the best judge of her mental state at the time of her death. 

I didn't find the daughter compelling at all.  To me, she clearly was blinded by misplaced loyalty to her father,  Her "knowledge" was completely one-sided,  She rattled off all of this information about her mother, which to me also indicates that she's aware that her father is snorting all sorts of cocaine up his nose, and her mother comes from serious money.  I completely believe that Brent murdered Susan.

One suicide attempt should not be blanket confirmation for everything that comes after.  Susan did not complete the act in the garage because the conditions were uncomfortable.  That, to me, says that Susan did not want prolonged suffering.  If she had done those Internet searches and learned that antifreeze poisoning took DAYS, I would not believe that she would choose that if she found the garage untenable.  Brent overplayed his hand, and I think his daughters simply can't deal that their mother was mentally ill, their father was a drug addict, and their father murdered their mother for money.  Their mother lived with serious mental illness, but that doesn't make their father not a drug addict, thief, and murderer.