All Episodes Discussion

[Morrigan2575]

6 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Agreed. She didn't really bother me. I thought it was sad how the family was so torn apart. She meets this guy, finds out his sister was an unsolved murder victim, and starts to do a little sleuthing of her own. Heck maybe she's a big Dateline fan like we are. A little fame-whorey maybe? Sure, but I probably would be too if I ever got to be on Dateline!

It's a weird situation, I can imagine she ruffled quite a few feathers, especially since the father and step-mom were convinced it was Kenny.  I think she was pushy but, her heart seemed to be in the right place. She wanted justice for Egypt because it meant so much to DeWayne.  

The stupid title gave away the mystery but, I still found the episode interesting because of how it exposed the typical cops always suspect the ex and how parents/family members are often blinded by bias and can't accept that they might have pegged the wrong person. 

[mythoughtis]

Regarding Mother God:

I think this is the first cult I’ve seen where only the cult leader died.  Usually it’s the followers who die, and also the leader. 
She was definitely mentally ill before she ran off to create the cult(s). Definitely an addict of both alcohol and drugs during her heyday as a cult leader. But at the end, it was the followers who contributed heavily to her death.  They are on video saying she asked to go to the hospital and that they refused to take her. They were watching her deteriorate for at least  months - she was ill and frail in Hawaii. 
If Miguel left the cult, then he should  have moved the money to a different cult member.  Obviously he didn’t leave.  If you leave a cult: they aren’t going to come visit you in mass and if they do, you aren’t letting them in.    
I felt so sorry for her children, all three of them. So glad to see that their fathers kept them stable and gave them the needed  background to not get sucked in.  The college student son was very mature to tell them no when they came asking him to join them. 
As to the followers who left, well great, but do not think I’m letting you stay in my life.  What cult are you likely to be  joining   next?  
The scariest part of all of this:   the internet and you tube reach of these people.  Jonestown happened before the internet and you tube.  Can you imagine the number of  people that could have  died  in their own living rooms? Especially in this past 5 years conspiracy theorists heyday? 

Edited October 26, 2021 by mythoughtis

[UsernameFatigue]

20 hours ago, mythoughtis said:

Egypt’s father was not her half brothers father.  So I doubt they will be spending time with them. DeWayne commented at the beginning that Chuck didn’t normally call him. 
yes, the ring came from DeWayne and Egypts’ mother.  
I didn’t care for Lindsay.  Making DeWayne and Kenny prove to her where they were the night Egypt was killed. If you are that suspicious, then don’t date the man. 

Thanks, I missed that. 

 

[sainte-chapelle]

Lindsey was awful. She is so arrogant, rude and disrespectful. Especially to the parents in their own home. This whole group seemed very unlikeable.

I agree with the poster that said this was all a game to her. She is a wannabe detective who likely lurks the true crime forums and just happened to be right this one time….now no one will ever hear the end of it. It was never about Egypt.

they went live on Facebook and haven’t even talked to her mom yet? Yea gross.

Edited October 26, 2021 by sainte-chapelle

[sainte-chapelle]

2 hours ago, mythoughtis said:

Regarding Mother God:

I think this is the first cult I’ve seen where only the cult leader died.  Usually it’s the followers who die, and also the leader. 
She was definitely mentally ill before she ran off to create the cult(s). Definitely an addict of both alcohol and drugs during her heyday as a cult leader. But at the end, it was the followers who contributed heavily to her death.  They are on video saying she asked to go to the hospital and that they refused to take her. They were watching her deteriorate for at least  months - she was ill and frail in Hawaii. 
If Miguel left the cult, then he should  have moved the money to a different cult member.  Obviously he didn’t leave.  If you leave a cult: they aren’t going to come visit you in mass and if they do, you aren’t letting them in.    
I felt so sorry for her children, all three of them. So glad to see that their fathers kept them stable and gave them the needed  background to not get sucked in.  The college student son was very mature to tell them no when they came asking him to join them. 
As to the followers who left, well great, but do not think I’m letting you stay in my life.  What cult are you likely to be  joining   next?  
The scariest part of all of this:   the internet and you tube reach of these people.  Jonestown happened before the internet and you tube.  Can you imagine the number of  people that could have  died  in their own living rooms? Especially in this past 5 years conspiracy theorists heyday? 

How were they not charged?  They are on video admitting she asked for help and they refused to get her medical treatment. That is a crime.

[howiveaddict]

2 hours ago, sainte-chapelle said:

How were they not charged?  They are on video admitting she asked for help and they refused to get her medical treatment. That is a crime.

Kind of reminds me how police departments, especially the LAPD cover up crime made by the Church of Scientology.

[sainte-chapelle]

1 hour ago, howiveaddict said:

Kind of reminds me how police departments, especially the LAPD cover up crime made by the Church of Scientology.

That was my thought as well!

[Vivigirl10]

Every murder is senseless but this one just hung on me as soooooo senseless.  Those men could have walked into Egypt's apartment, saw her watching a movie, realized they were in the wrong place and simply put their hands up and said, "my bad" and walked out.  Who knows, she may not have even called the police.  But instead, they tie her up and shoot her in the head??  My God!  Why did they escalate a simple mistake into her having to die?  

Dateline did cover every base and then some with this episode, but they also did convey how great of a young woman Egypt was.  What a loss. 

A kindergarten teacher telling seasoned detectives how to do their jobs is rich.  Ugh.  So the fact that she was somewhat responsible for moving the investigation forward is hard to swallow.  

D'Wayne's name was driving me nuts.  Dee-Wayne.  

Egypt's boyfriend needs to leave his small town, go to the city and start living his best gay life.  

Edited October 28, 2021 by Kiki620
Grammar

[SunnyBeBe]

Tonight they are featuring a story about the Murdaugh family in SC.  If you’re not familiar with the situation……it’s a shocking turn of events about a SC family of legal prominence.  I won’t provide details here. I look forward to any new details they might have unearthed.  

[Crashcourse]

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Tonight they are featuring a story about the Murdaugh family in SC.  If you’re not familiar with the situation……it’s a shocking turn of events about a SC family of legal prominence.  I won’t provide details here. I look forward to any new details they might have unearthed.  

Yeah, I'll be watching.  What a sad mess.

[Irlandesa]

So the awful guy in tonight's episode is being investigated for the hit and run death of the nursing student and we aren't even told why?  Booo!

[Annber03]

The story about Kristin Smart was so sad. So close to her home, she had people showing concern and trying to help her get home safely... If only. I feel for her parents, too - they told her to stick it out where she was for the remainder of the year before deciding whether or not to come back home. I can't imagine how many times they've done the whole, "what if...?" thing since then :(. And having to declare her legally dead in order to get the investigation ramped up again - I get why they did that, of course, but man, what a horribly tough decision for parents to have to make. 

Their main suspect sure sounds like a real prize of a guy :/. Especially chilling to think that Kristin was likely not his only victim. Sam's story was haunting and I feel for her, too. I hope justice comes as soon as possible at long last, and I hope Kristin's family can finally get answers about what happened to her after all this time. 

As for the Murdaugh case, yeah, I'd seen some of the headlines about this one over the past few months, but haven't had a chance to really delve into the story properly until this episode. Five people dying in suspicious/ violent ways, and all either having or seeming to have some kind of tie to Alex....that's a hell of a lot of deaths surrounding one person. I too am curious about the potential reason behind the hit and run, and I would not be one bit surprised to learn that the housekeeper's death was no mere tragic accident. 

I also couldn't help being a bit amused, during the 911 call about his wife and son, when he said, they'd "been shot - badly". As opposed to, what, being shot...good/well, I guess, or something? I know what he meant, but it just sounded funny.

For someone with so much power and prestige and whatnot*, though, Alex was kind of dumb in how he tried to handle the aftermath of some of this stuff. I found it weird that instead of telling Mallory's boyfriend to keep his mouth shut after the boat tragedy, he told the other boy to do that instead, thus allowing Mallory's boyfriend the opportunity to talk as much as he could with the police. And picking a lawyer who just happens to be a friend of his AND godfather to his son to represent the kid he didn't want to talk...did he seriously not think that nobody would find that just the slightest bit odd and questionable? And then there was that Curtis guy, who was a fellow lawyer AND his drug dealer AND involved in a faux suicide plot with him... Really just piling on all the criminal activity here, aren't ya, buddy? Up to now it seems his money and status have kept him relatively protected in terms of serious consequences, but with all the stuff coming out of late...seems that might be about to change. 

*Tell me I wasn't the only one who, when they announced the title of this hour of the show as "Power, Privilege, and Scandal", was mentally replacing the "and Scandal" part with "and Justice" :p? 

Edited October 30, 2021 by Annber03

[Guest]

I have been drawn to the family photo that has been plastered everywhere since this horrible story hit the media.

The pained, weak smiles and eyes say so much.  I’ve posted this comment before (who knows where) but I am taken by how completely uncomfortable they all look in that photo.  It’s a strained, tense portrait of a troubled family.

Mom Maggie looks like she has the weight of the world on her shoulders, Alex has what I call “fox eyes”.  He’s always searching and planning.  Very cunning.  The sons?  Not sure I have enough time to write my analysis of them.  My initial thought is that the only reason they had friends is because they had stuff and access to stuff.  

And I can hardly believe I’m writing this but I would have liked for this particular subject to have a two hour coverage.  There’s got to be more info but with trials coming up and such, maybe it all has to be kept under wraps for now.  I am hoping when all this is finished they do a another episode.

[Crashcourse]

8 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

So the awful guy in tonight's episode is being investigated for the hit and run death of the nursing student and we aren't even told why?  Booo!

I thought I might have missed something because I couldn't believe that story ended so abruptly.   That was really poorly done.

[iMonrey]

Quote

I also couldn't help being a bit amused, during the 911 call about his wife and son, when he said, they'd "been shot - badly". 

He also kept calling the dispatcher "ma'am." That sounded odd too. 

Quote

Alex has what I call “fox eyes”.  

Or "serial killer eyes" or "Manson lamps."

Two things strike me about the Kristin Smart story. One, I've seen enough Dateline to make me think I have a 50/50 chance of getting away with murder, depending on how incompetent the local police are. Two, it's really bad luck to have the last name "Smart."

[CrazyInAlabama]

In the Murdagh case, I've read that the hit-and-run, that actually was a hate crime because the man was gay, could have been either brother.    Of course, the surviving brother will be happy to pin it on the other brother and his friends.  

Edited October 30, 2021 by CrazyInAlabama

[SunnyBeBe]

Ref. Murdaugh and the young man found dead in the road. My impression is that it was not a hit and run, but intentional. And they knew each other. That’s all I’ll say about that until there’s more evidence.  

[Annber03]

2 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Ref. Murdaugh and the young man found dead in the road. My impression is that it was not a hit and run, but intentional. And they knew each other. That’s all I’ll say about that until there’s more evidence.  

That's what I was thinking, too. 

[sainte-chapelle]

6 hours ago, PsychoKlown said:

I have been drawn to the family photo that has been plastered everywhere since this horrible story hit the media.

The pained, weak smiles and eyes say so much.  I’ve posted this comment before (who knows where) but I am taken by how completely uncomfortable they all look in that photo.  It’s a strained, tense portrait of a troubled family.

Mom Maggie looks like she has the weight of the world on her shoulders, Alex has what I call “fox eyes”.  He’s always searching and planning.  Very cunning.  The sons?  Not sure I have enough time to write my analysis of them.  My initial thought is that the only reason they had friends is because they had stuff and access to stuff.  

And I can hardly believe I’m writing this but I would have liked for this particular subject to have a two hour coverage.  There’s got to be more info but with trials coming up and such, maybe it all has to be kept under wraps for now.  I am hoping when all this is finished they do a another episode.

I agree this could have been 2 hours. It felt very rushed at the end and I wanted to know more about the poor nursing student and the housekeepers mysterious fall. They already covered Kirstin Smart multiple times. 

[TVbitch]

The presenter who did the Alex Murdaugh case kept calling him Alec, to the point I was wondering if that is how it is pronounce for some reason cuz he couldn't possibly be that incompetent. I believe 48 Hours is also doing this story tonight. 

[SunnyBeBe]

Dateline was a 2 hr show on East coast. Came on at 9 and ended at 11:00.

 

https://www.islandpacket.com/news/local/crime/article255360281.html

[Irlandesa]

6 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Dateline was a 2 hr show on East coast. Came on at 9 and ended at 11:00.

 

https://www.islandpacket.com/news/local/crime/article255360281.html

It was a two hour show everywhere, I think.  But the issue was it was treated like it was essentially two one hour shows.  The first hour was about a girl who went missing.  The second hour was about a family with a lot of legal power and multiple deaths surrounding one man including a friend of his son who was on a boat, a housekeeper who tripped at his house and whose insurance settlement he stole, his wife and son, and thrown in at the end, a guy who was killed on the side of the road. 

And in that second episode, there were a lot of family members of all the victims who were willing to talk.  Yet they squeezed it all into one hour whereas last week, they dragged the "wrong door" episode out for two. 

[SunnyBeBe]

1 hour ago, Irlandesa said:

It was a two hour show everywhere, I think.  But the issue was it was treated like it was essentially two one hour shows.  The first hour was about a girl who went missing.  The second hour was about a family with a lot of legal power and multiple deaths surrounding one man including a friend of his son who was on a boat, a housekeeper who tripped at his house and whose insurance settlement he stole, his wife and son, and thrown in at the end, a guy who was killed on the side of the road. 

And in that second episode, there were a lot of family members of all the victims who were willing to talk.  Yet they squeezed it all into one hour whereas last week, they dragged the "wrong door" episode out for two. 

Oh….I was feeling a little out of it due to receiving third dose vaccine yesterday.  I must have dozed a little. Lol

Edited October 31, 2021 by SunnyBeBe

[SunnyBeBe]

2 hours ago, TVbitch said:

The presenter who did the Alex Murdaugh case kept calling him Alec, to the point I was wondering if that is how it is pronounce for some reason cuz he couldn't possibly be that incompetent. I believe 48 Hours is also doing this story tonight. 

I’m wondering this too. All NBC staff on the Dateline Show said Alec, but tonight on 48 Hours, they are pronouncing it Alex.  Post boat accident scene shows the deceased girl’s boyfriend tell the officer Paul is Alec Murdaugh’s son……so,……I don’t get it.  
 

And, the woman on 48 Hours is pronouncing the last name Murdock in some places! It’s not Murdock and isn’t pronounced that way. What’s up with these people. If you’re going to cover a story, you should pronounce the person’s name correctly.  
 

 

 

Edited October 31, 2021 by SunnyBeBe

[iMonrey]

I can't decide if Alex killed his wife and son (for insurance money?) or if someone killed them out of revenge for the boat accident and getting away with it. The whole murder for hire thing was just so bizarre and could point to either scenario. 

[Vivigirl10]

 

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

I can't decide if Alex killed his wife and son (for insurance money?) or if someone killed them out of revenge for the boat accident and getting away with it.

I can't decide either!  Who truly is the murderer within the family?  Add in the housekeeper and the nursing student and I am truly scratching my head.  

The housekeeper's family seemed so warm and kind.  Especially the main woman who spoke (I missed what her connection to the housekeeper was?).  I previously read an article about how her two son's were so easily manipulated over the insurance money and completely taken advantage of.  They really tugged on the heartstrings.  

On 10/30/2021 at 8:43 AM, PsychoKlown said:

Mom Maggie looks like she has the weight of the world on her shoulders,

I'd like to know more about her.  It never seems like they focus much on who she was, where she came from, etc. 

[12catcrazy]

Another vote for wanting to know more about the Murdaugh case.   And my thought's about the wife and son being murdered is that Alex Murdaugh more than likely had a hand in that (even if he didn't actually do the shooting) - he was probably counting on suspicion falling on the boating accident dead girl's family and friends which would leave him off the hook.  They mentioned in passing on the show that the wife had been rumored to have spoken to a divorce attorney.   So bump her off and either the son was in the wrong place at the wrong time or his idiot actions had made him too much of a liability to have around so he had to go too.  

As far as the housekeeper - accident or was she pushed or assaulted?  People can (and do) die from falls where they hit their head but considering how Murdaugh kept the woman's insurance money rather than giving it to her sons, makes you wonder if this had been another evil deed he had thought about for gain.    He really seemed to think that he was above the law and untouchable, and the housekeeper was basically a "nobody".

That young man who was hit by a car - well, he was openly gay and hanging around people that he wouldn't talk to his family about.   Maybe he had some drug connection to Murdaugh (or the sons) or there was a gay connection.   Maybe the guy threatened to tell all to somebody....   

Boy, it's like this family was made for Dateline. 

[SunnyBeBe]

I have a lot of questions that investigators may or may not have information on.  One is if the son’s defense attorneys were asking for legal fees in his case.  If they were saying they needed a big old legal fee, in order to stay in the case, he may not have had the money to pay it. They likely had said we need money to stay on the case.   So…..what do you do?  Only option is to have son apply for court appointed attorney. That was unacceptable. How humiliating for all involved.  
 

Second question:  If wife was seeking divorce, the scariest thing about that is that it would have opened up the door to discovery of his finances. Did she know about the illegal funds he had obtained?  So, any bank accounts he had access to would have been explored…..there is always a paper trail. This would have been a nightmare.  
 

When lies, stealing and dead bodies keep piling up around you, it’s probably not just a coincidence. 🥴

Edited November 1, 2021 by SunnyBeBe

[GiandujaPie]

I'm sorry but the whole Murdaugh family looks inbred. They are completely emblematic of rich but mediocre people who stay ahead strictly due to family history and legacy rather than due to intelligence, talents and work ethic. I feel bad for the housekeeper's family but not sure why they have kept quiet for so long. Rich people like the Murdaughs count on people like the housekeeper's family to enable their bad behavior. Did they ever say what is wrong with the 2 sons? 

I felt bad for Kristen Smart's family. The campus police completely bungled that case by not treating it seriously and by the time it was handed off to the county sheriff, any evidence would have been long gone. Paul Flores clearly was a predator with enabling parents. However, I did wonder why that one woman who talked but with her face blacked out, why did she agree to go to his house? I thought she admitted she didn't know him, yet accepted a ride from him and accepted a dinner invite. But why would you continue the evening by going to the house of someone you don't know? She could have just stayed at the restaurant until he left and called for a cab or a friend to come pick her up. 

[iMonrey]

Horror at the Lake. I knew within five minutes it was going to turn out to be Carlos. You can tell when they aren't interviewing someone it's probably because they're in jail. What a tragedy. He seemed like such a smart kid with a bright future. To see him at the end with all those ugly tattoos on his face and neck was just so sad. 

[Annber03]

20 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I knew within five minutes it was going to turn out to be Carlos. 

Same. Especially given the way they kept talking up the close bond between him and his mom and all. Plus, while a burglar could grab an ax and take out somebody with it, generally that's the kind of attack that's a lot more personal, and the killer had to get the ax out of the shed besides, which showed they had some familiarity with the property. 

I was amazed at how quickly things shifted regarding the discussion of Carlos' relationship with his mom, though. For much of the first hour all we kept hearing about was how close they were and how good a kid he was, and the one friend talked about how she envied the relationship Carlos shared with his mom, because she struggled to forge that same kind of bond with her adopted kids, and so on...

...and then all of a sudden there's all this talk of child abuse allegations and the younger son is in jail (and I love that that was his alibi for the night of his mom's murder) and the older son is starting to rebel and do drugs and whatnot and has a more strained relationship with his mom than most people realized and so on. I was like, "...well, that escalated quickly!"

Also love that the GPS on Carlos' phone was able to help prove what he was doing after his mom's murder. 

I really feel for the officers and paramedics who had to respond to that murder scene - they looked so obviously shaken when talking about what they saw in that bedroom, and the description of how they had to try and hold her a certain way in order to attempt CPR....yeesh. How horrible. The fact she was still alive for a brief time when they arrived just added to the horror - her last moments were not painless. What a ghastly way to go. 

[TVbitch]

As this story began, I was like, please don't be Carlos ...but of course it was gonna be Carlos. Ugh. 

I would like to see that whole list of terms she had to agree to in order for Carlos to move back into the house. 

It was refreshing to see competent investigators who followed all the leads, in a timely manner, and got the right guy.  

[JMarie99]

2 minutes ago, TVbitch said:

 

As this story began, I was like, please don't be Carlos ...but of course it was gonna be Carlos. Ugh. 

 

Same here. I found it absolutely heartbreaking. By the end of the episode, when he was being interviewed in prison, I was actually in tears. 

[Morrigan2575]

I kept thinking it was Carlos and they tried so hard to make it look like Angel that I knew it was Carlos.

[sainte-chapelle]

I knew 30 seconds in that it was Carlos. He is very smart and calculated, he was trying to say all the right things during his interview but h e still came off as cold. I think he has some psychopathic traits. He said he deserved to be in prison but tried to defer as much of the responsibility as he could. “ I don’t remember….mom was abusive…she said she didn’t want me and I blanked out…mom wanted me to contribute financially “ Yet he made a long list of financial demands before moving back home and he is almost 18.  I had a job and paid my parents back for my first year tuition…not unheard of.
 The other son was an issue as well.  It all makes me wonder what really went on in that house.  They likely both have deep seated psychological issues that she was not prepared or equipped to deal with. Was she somewhat controlling and abusive? Maybe. If it is true the whole “ white saviour “ tactic on her part is disgusting. Not sure why they bothered to interview his girlfriend. She seemed like a nice girl but it was mentioned Carlos had multiple girlfriends that he snuck in and out of the house. I don’t think she knew him all that well. 

Edited November 6, 2021 by sainte-chapelle

[Fable]

This was an odd and confusing story.  One minute, mother and son were the best of friends until they're not.  The next minute, the best friend was all too glad to take him in, saying she was envious of their relationship, all while saying her family kept wasp spray around because they were so afraid of him.  Just curious, but how would wasp spray help, if someone snuck up on you in your sleep, and if you were that afraid, why would you agree to keep him in your home?

[sainte-chapelle]

51 minutes ago, Fable said:

This was an odd and confusing story.  One minute, mother and son were the best of friends until they're not.  The next minute, the best friend was all too glad to take him in, saying she was envious of their relationship, all while saying her family kept wasp spray around because they were so afraid of him.  Just curious, but how would wasp spray help, if someone snuck up on you in your sleep, and if you were that afraid, why would you agree to keep him in your home?

I agree it was odd, I felt like I was reading a book and read the first two chapters then skipped to the end. Something is missing.

[Lsk02]

They couldn’t even try to fake us out with a jailhouse interview in a normal shirt like they’ve done with some others, because he had that teardrop tattoo loud and proud to give it away. That told me he’s not sorry at all for what he did. 
 

What a terrible story. It was a bit difficult for my partner, who is an adoptee, to watch this one. 

[UsernameFatigue]

Horror at the Lake - like others, it was obvious to me that it was Carlos if for no other reason than he was not being interviewed from the start, when the episode description included Carlos being interviewed. But you can pretty much bet that when a Dateline episode paints a rosy picture of a relationship in hour number one, hour number two will rip that picture in two. This is yet another episode that could have easily been an hour long. 

 Though I guess the case was solved fairly quickly, as Dateline was dragging it out, I wondered why the police did not read her journals as they had with Angel, to find out what was really going on. 

9 hours ago, sainte-chapelle said:

I knew 30 seconds in that it was Carlos. He is very smart and calculated, he was trying to say all the right things during his interview but h e still came off as cold. I think he has some psychopathic traits. He said he deserved to be in prison but tried to defer as much of the responsibility as he could. “ I don’t remember….mom was abusive…she said she didn’t want me and I blanked out…mom wanted me to contribute financially “ Yet he made a long list of financial demands before moving back home and he is almost 18.  I had a job and paid my parents back for my first year tuition…not unheard of.
 

I did not believe him in his jail house interview, at all. It was pretty obvious from his list of demands that he thought he was running the show, and deserved to be. And whining that his mother wanted him to contribute to the household? Everything he said had me shaking my head. He is where he deserves to be, and I have no sympathy for him. 

Edited November 7, 2021 by UsernameFatigue

[UsernameFatigue]

1 hour ago, Fable said:

This was an odd and confusing story.  One minute, mother and son were the best of friends until they're not.  The next minute, the best friend was all too glad to take him in, saying she was envious of their relationship, all while saying her family kept wasp spray around because they were so afraid of him.  Just curious, but how would wasp spray help, if someone snuck up on you in your sleep, and if you were that afraid, why would you agree to keep him in your home?

Didn't they say that Carlos had been drinking and taking drugs from the age of 11? I guess maybe they were close in relation to the mother's relationship with Angel, but it sounds like Carlos was a handful for several years before he killed his mother. I think the friend may have been envious early on, but not likely in his later teen years. I think also the friend only took him in for a week until CPS was able to find another place for him to stay. Wasn't she also the friend who the mom asked to look after her dogs if something happened to her? Or was that a different friend?  I of course was hoping that they would say that the dogs went to a good home. 

[sainte-chapelle]

19 minutes ago, UsernameFatigue said:

Horror at the Lake - like others, it was obvious to me that it was Carols if for no other reason than he was not being interviewed from the start, when the episode description included Carlos being interviewed. But you can pretty much bet that when a Dateline episode paints a rosy picture of a relationship in hour number one, hour number two will rip that picture in two. This is yet another episode that could have easily been an hour long. 

 Though I guess the case was solved fairly quickly, as Dateline was dragging it out, I wondered why the police did not read her journals as they had with Angel, to find out what was really going on. 

I did not believe him in his jail house interview, at all. It was pretty obvious from his list of demands that he thought he was running the show, and deserved to be. And whining that his mother wanted him to contribute to the household? Everything he said had me shaking my head. He is where he deserves to be, and I have no sympathy for him. 

I don’t believe him either. I was a bit taken aback when mom was charged with abuse and the couple that took Carlos in for a spell said they witnessed some rather terrible comments that she made. I got the impression that she liked to paint a “ perfect family” image so ignored a lot of bad behaviour or tried to appease Carlos in anyway she could in order to maintain that perfect image. If I left and demanded money to come back home my parents would have told me to kick rocks. 

[pdlinda]

6 hours ago, sainte-chapelle said:

 They likely both have deep seated psychological issues that she was not prepared or equipped to deal with. Was she somewhat controlling and abusive? Maybe. If it is true the whole “ white saviour “ tactic on her part is disgusting

I completely agree with your analysis. 

I was wondering whether the  "agencies" she dealt with to adopt the boys ever did an in-depth psych evaluation on HER before either adoption went through in addition to doing the same for each of the boys.

I worked on the defense side of the criminal justice system for MANY years and had several cases with similar fact patterns leading to murder (in each case) of a single mother who adopted the defendant at an early age to express her "social conscience" toward those whom she believed were "downtrodden and dispossessed." 

In each case, as we delved into the social histories and obtained records to substantiate the defense we were going to present to a jury, the foreign agencies we contacted provided us with such paltry records (if any records at all) regarding the birth and psych condition of the adoptee as to be valueless.  There was also no in-depth info about any investigation into the adoptive mother from the U.S.  There were also U.S. intermediary agencies that we contacted, but they were either out of business or of no help.

On a final note, in order for Carlos to "fit in" with the other inmates once he was convicted, it was necessary for him to assume the persona we saw at the end with the tattoos (including the facial tattoos and the "loyalty" tattoo across his neck) to announce publicly to his fellow inmates that he had affiliated with a particular prison gang. 

Without total compliance with the gang leader "head" (always based upon his racial group),Carlos' survival in prison would be severely jeopardized.

In each of our cases similar to Carlos' there was also a quick conviction and life sentence, and, like Carlos, the defendants I worked with were juveniles charged and convicted as adults.

One must ponder whether these boys (now men) would have been better off staying in their home Countries despite their meager socioeconomic status. 

In these particular cases, the original benevolent act of the adoptive parent turned out to be a mixed blessing, for both adopter and adoptee.

 

 

[LEILANI2]

3 minutes ago, pdlinda said:

I completely agree with your analysis. 

I was wondering whether the  "agencies" she dealt with to adopt the boys ever did an in-depth psych evaluation on HER before either adoption went through in addition to doing the same for each of the boys.

I worked on the defense side of the criminal justice system for MANY years and had several cases with similar fact patterns leading to murder (in each case) of a single mother who adopted the defendant at an early age to express her "social conscience" toward those whom she believed were "downtrodden and dispossessed." 

In each case, as we delved into the social histories and obtained records to substantiate the defense we were going to present to a jury, the foreign agencies we contacted provided us with such paltry records (if any records at all) regarding the birth and psych condition of the adoptee as to be valueless.  There was also no in-depth info about any investigation into the adoptive mother from the U.S.  There were also U.S. intermediary agencies that we contacted, but they were either out of business or of no help.

On a final note, in order for Carlos to "fit in" with the other inmates once he was convicted, it was necessary for him to assume the persona we saw at the end with the tattoos (including the facial tattoos and the "loyalty" tattoo across his neck) to announce publicly to his fellow inmates that he had affiliated with a particular prison gang. 

Without total compliance with the gang leader "head" (always based upon his racial group),Carlos' survival in prison would be severely jeopardized.

In each of our cases similar to Carlos' there was also a quick conviction and life sentence, and, like Carlos, the defendants I worked with were juveniles charged and convicted as adults.

One must ponder whether these boys (now men) would have been better off staying in their home Countries despite their meager socioeconomic status. 

In these particular cases, the original benevolent act of the adoptive parent turned out to be a mixed blessing, for both adopter and adoptee.

 

 

This was so interesting.  I have seen other Dateline/Snapped episodes of adopted children killed the parent but didn't realize it was so common.

What are the reasons that the relationship often ends in murder?  Could you point to any links so I can read more about it?

[pdlinda]

16 minutes ago, LEILANI2 said:

What are the reasons that the relationship often ends in murder?  Could you point to any links so I can read more about it?

From extensive psych testing we had done on our defendants, the primary source of conflict and penchant toward violent retaliation toward mother from adopted son was the original unresolved "abandonment" issues the adoptee felt toward his birth mother for putting him up for adoption in the first place. That is accentuated by the adoptee being torn from his original Country and culture and brought without any, or little, orientation and/or assimilation into his new Country.

This psychological insecurity of the boy then tends to manifest itself when (in each case) the U.S. adopting mother continually makes reference to her regret for adopting the boy in the first place, directly stating that she was sorry she ever adopted him, and her wish to abandon him herself because of his poor conduct. (This is a pattern that recurs so often its almost like a "syndrome.")  In Carlos' case, this "trigger" was brought into full focus when the mother agreed to sever all ties (and refused to even discuss) his brother, Angel after he was forced out of her home (I wonder where Angel is today).

 Unfortunately, as with all children, adolescence presents issues with opposite sex children and mothers (no father in the home), that many times lead to failed expectations on the part of the mother.  As soon as the adopted son gets the sense that he is "disappointing" mother and she starts tightening the disciplinary "screws," conflict usually ensues and the original abandonment issues (often exacerbated by substance abuse and sexual promiscuity) emerge that often lead to retaliatory violence.

Putting the key words of this discussion into a google search bar will provide you with innumerable sources of research/information into this very unfortunate dynamic between adoptees and their out-of-country adoptive single mothers.

[JudyObscure]

Thanks @pdlinda, for all your professional knowledge.  I've heard so many sad adoption stories over the years, "crack babies"  that were never settled or contented, children who blamed the adoptive mother for taking them away from their birth mother, and the awful cases where children had been abused so much it just killed something inside them.  I admire anyone who's willing to take the chance on an older child -- but telling a child you wished you had never adopted him?  Horrible.

[chediavolo]

8 hours ago, pdlinda said:

I completely agree with your analysis. 

I was wondering whether the  "agencies" she dealt with to adopt the boys ever did an in-depth psych evaluation on HER before either adoption went through in addition to doing the same for each of the boys.

I worked on the defense side of the criminal justice system for MANY years and had several cases with similar fact patterns leading to murder (in each case) of a single mother who adopted the defendant at an early age to express her "social conscience" toward those whom she believed were "downtrodden and dispossessed." 

In each case, as we delved into the social histories and obtained records to substantiate the defense we were going to present to a jury, the foreign agencies we contacted provided us with such paltry records (if any records at all) regarding the birth and psych condition of the adoptee as to be valueless.  There was also no in-depth info about any investigation into the adoptive mother from the U.S.  There were also U.S. intermediary agencies that we contacted, but they were either out of business or of no help.

On a final note, in order for Carlos to "fit in" with the other inmates once he was convicted, it was necessary for him to assume the persona we saw at the end with the tattoos (including the facial tattoos and the "loyalty" tattoo across his neck) to announce publicly to his fellow inmates that he had affiliated with a particular prison gang. 

Without total compliance with the gang leader "head" (always based upon his racial group),Carlos' survival in prison would be severely jeopardized.

In each of our cases similar to Carlos' there was also a quick conviction and life sentence, and, like Carlos, the defendants I worked with were juveniles charged and convicted as adults.

One must ponder whether these boys (now men) would have been better off staying in their home Countries despite their meager socioeconomic status. 

In these particular cases, the original benevolent act of the adoptive parent turned out to be a mixed blessing, for both adopter and adoptee.

 

 

WTF! We are defending these pieces of shit while calling (another poster) the victim “a white savior”? I don’t believe she was near the best parent but they never delved into anything that could have provoked this. That boy was a bad seed from birth probably. As for the victim, maybe she genuinely wanted to help a child less fortunate. No good deed goes unpunished, huh?! 
I’m disgusted☹️😡

[JudyObscure]

27 minutes ago, chediavolo said:

the victim “a white savior”?

I thought that was uncalled for, too.  Anyone who adopts a troubled older child is hoping to "save" the child from a loveless life in the streets or in an orphanage. Surely that's not a bad thing.

 

Even the Devil Went to Church 

 My kind of episode!  No children to get upset over, just a disgusting slob of a woman and her professional leech of a boyfriend.  Unfortunately very poor churches sometimes can't afford a well educated, experienced pastor so they end up with someone who's all double talk.  When the detective asked him how he, a pastor and a married man, could have an affair he chuckled and said, "Don't hate the sinner, hate the sin!"  You could tell that was his favorite get out of jail free card.  I'm so glad his church wasted no time firing him. 

Best laugh of the night was the poor young detective who seemed to have PTSD from having to look at all those naked pictures on their phones.

[sainte-chapelle]

On 11/7/2021 at 7:30 AM, JudyObscure said:

I thought that was uncalled for, too.  Anyone who adopts a troubled older child is hoping to "save" the child from a loveless life in the streets or in an orphanage. Surely that's not a bad thing.

 

Even the Devil Went to Church 

 My kind of episode!  No children to get upset over, just a disgusting slob of a woman and her professional leech of a boyfriend.  Unfortunately very poor churches sometimes can't afford a well educated, experienced pastor so they end up with someone who's all double talk.  When the detective asked him how he, a pastor and a married man, could have an affair he chuckled and said, "Don't hate the sinner, hate the sin!"  You could tell that was his favorite get out of jail free card.  I'm so glad his church wasted no time firing him. 

Best laugh of the night was the poor young detective who seemed to have PTSD from having to look at all those naked pictures on their phones.

I stand by my comment, if anyone read my posts in full I am hardly defending him. I also said “ if true..” Multiple witnesses said she said things like “ I pulled you out of the gutter and should have left you there. “ She wanted the perfect family on her terms. She also did nail windows shut which is a fire hazard.  My friend adopted from another country, she doesn’t fall under that category because despite MANY issues she has never said shit like that.  Murder victims aren’t all perfect people. She was poorly equipped to deal with complexity of adopting and maybe thought “well I am saving them from poverty and bringing them to a better country. They should be grateful and love me” 
My point is that it is complicated. As I said earlier Carlos is manipulative, arrogant and has psychotic traits. He also differed all responsibility. His financial list of demands were obscene and his coldness  during interviews unnerving. She said some vile things but he used that as an excuse to kill her. He  is where he should be. 

Devil went to Church

I LOLd at the poor officer talking about the naked pictured. I am a jerk but I also laughed when the lady said that they couldn’t  be having sex in the truck because they are too big.

Edited November 13, 2021 by sainte-chapelle

[Lsk02]

13 hours ago, pdlinda said:

On a final note, in order for Carlos to "fit in" with the other inmates once he was convicted, it was necessary for him to assume the persona we saw at the end with the tattoos (including the facial tattoos and the "loyalty" tattoo across his neck) to announce publicly to his fellow inmates that he had affiliated with a particular prison gang. 

He had the tattoos at his trial, before he was convicted and went to prison. He may have gotten them while he was in jail awaiting trial, or he may have joined a gang and got the tattoos even before he got arrested, but saying it was “necessary” is a stretch in my opinion. Many prisoners find ways to survive without joining gangs or advertising their murder count on their faces. We have no way of knowing it he “had” to do this or if he chose to. 

Edited November 7, 2021 by Lsk02

[iMonrey]

Quote

But you can pretty much bet that when a Dateline episode paints a rosy picture of a relationship in hour number one, hour number two will rip that picture in two. 

Maybe, but this felt like such a deliberate misdirect my head was spinning. First everyone is singing the praises of Carlos, telling us how wonderful he was, how much he loved his mother, how intelligent he was, how everyone liked him. Then all of a sudden the very same people were all like "He's a monster! I was afraid of him!" WTF.