S01.E06: Kin

[Capricasix]

My minor quibble was with Maria’s pregnancy, specifically the likelihood of a viable pregnancy at her age. What did the chalkboard memorial say about her son‘s birth year? Was it 1997? I’d have to go back and look.

It’s not a big deal, as it’s certainly possible for a woman to have a successful pregnancy in her late forties. Hilary Swank is something like 48 and pregnant with her first child, I believe.

[shelley1234]

40 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

 

So perhaps Joel is concerned that Tommy is making the same mistake again, or a similar mistake.

I think Joel is most bothered that Tommy dared to make any kind of life whatsoever.   Joel stopped living when the mushrooms attacked, so how dare Tommy not do the same.  

[Cheezwiz]

4 hours ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

I'm still not sure why there was an either/or situation with regards to Joel or Tommy taking Ellie. I mean, safety in numbers, right? Couldn't Joel's last thing that he ever asked Tommy was to accompany them both? Really, they should have rested up in the commune, gained their trust, explained their situation and then had a whole posse accompany Ellie. I mean, if you really wanted to ensure the survival of humanity, it seems the fewer risks you take the better. I just have a hard time believing a group that's trying so hard to rebuild would be against getting Ellie to where she needs to go if it meant it would help so significantly. But maybe that's the point, Joel won't trust anyone.

I think Joel was terrified that if he divulged anything about Ellie's condition, the townspeople would have immediately turned on them and killed her. I think the smarter option would have been to stay awhile longer and let people get to know them, build some trust, and perhaps come up with some sort of cover story that would get others on board to form a protective posse. But that's just creature-comfort loving me talking!

[Danny Franks]

The somewhat nonplussed First Nation couple were fun. I liked that they both seemed to immediately sense that Joel wasn't a danger, and they treated him accordingly. 

Bella Ramsey is getting better by the episode, and I really buy her increasing reliance on Joel being matched by her increasing feelings of affection for him. Pedro Pascal is doing a good job showing Joel unconsciously slipping back into dad behaviour. And of course Joel knows who Ellie's favourite astronaut would be. Ellie seems more and more like a fourteen year old - snarky and curious and unguarded when it comes to asking things of Joel. Even that little moment of worry when she saw Joel had someone else he cared about, as he and Tommy hugged.

One of my favourite scenes in the entire game is the one with Joel and Ellie where they talk about loss. I'm glad the show version of it made me feel both of their pain just as strongly. They're two broken people who need a real connection and Joel almost fucked it up because he's so desperate to avoid feeling anything. Because he's so scared of repeating the past.

The little flashes of memory of Sarah are heartbreaking, and you have to wonder how clearly he can even remember her, after twenty years.

We're seeing Joel's age and potential fragility more in this episode, which is obviously a worry. Even more of a worry now he's been staked. He's talked about his knackered knees and his bad ear and you'd have to assume anyone who lived from 36 to 56 in the post-apocalypse would be a little worn down.

I loved the set for Tommy and Maria's town. Gorgeous, particularly with the string lights across the streets. The undercurrent of Maria knowing that Joel meant trouble and Joel fearing that Tommy had got himself mixed up with a doomed utopia was palpable. The stinger was Tommy saying that, just because Joel stopped living, it didn't mean other people had to. It takes a special kind of pessimist to look at that town and think, 'this is bad news.'

Seeing him in full dad mode when he was teaching Ellie to shoot, and then when he was patiently answering her questions and listening to her make fun of him. That was so sweet. He was even smiling.

[mrspidey]

18 hours ago, magdalene said:

 

Small voice: That wound doesn't look survivable under these conditions.

You should see the one he gets in the game, lol. This is way more realistic.

 

Loved the native american couple at the beginning. After Bill and Frank, this is another pair that "won" the apocalypse. They've lived their live like that even before the outbreak. Nothing has changed for them.

[paigow]

18 hours ago, peridot said:

Those monkeys would have scared me.  I guess I was assuming that all the animals in a zoo or lab would have died long ago.

How many were there? Maybe 12 ????!!!!!

[Colorado David]

9 minutes ago, paigow said:

How many were there? Maybe 12 ????!!!!!

not to mention i give monkeys credit that they are resourceful gatherers/foragers when they need to be.

yeah graham and elaine (i dunno their character names) seemed totally non-plussed and fine living off grid. i luv that she made Joel and Ellie soup, that is so homey and not unusual - heck elaine maybe was enjoying their company. graham eh not so much!

[bethy]

13 minutes ago, paigow said:

How many were there? Maybe 12 ????!!!!!

Not gonna lie - I have thought about James Cole a LOT during this series, especially when they’ve talked about all the bad things they’ve done to survive. 

[Daisychain]

So, several weeks ago I was having a Potbelly lunch (ouch) with my male colleagues.  I b-tched about how survival/apocalypse shows never deal with women's periods.  It was I think 2 days later when Ellie found the box of Tampax, and now we have the menstrual cup!  Well done show.  Also, "everyone loved contractors!"

This episode was so well written and well acted, really amazing.  At first I did think Tommy was weak sh-t but he showed up in the end.  

Finally, I live just outside of Chicago so spending an hour watching Joel ride and walk outside in the winter with NO HAT was so painful.  Have the producers of this show never been cold???  Wear your hats people.  

[Capricasix]

Please to explain what is a Potbelly lunch?

[paigow]

47 minutes ago, Capricasix said:

Please to explain what is a Potbelly lunch?

[Lamima]

47 minutes ago, Capricasix said:

Please to explain what is a Potbelly lunch?

It's a sub shop like Firehouse Subs or Quiznos or Subway (more like the first 2).

[Glade]

I couldn't believe that it looked like they were wrapping everything up, having found Tommy and reaching the firefly base without even having to fight off another giant bloater in the forest...but no, this is not the ending.  I guess this could go the way of the beautiful Station Eleven miniseries, where Ellie thinks that Joel is dead and leaves him, but  someone else rescues him (like as soon as she leaves Tommy shows up with a band of his people) and he survives for a reunion many years later? 

Edited February 21, 2023 by Glade

[CrazyDog]

3 hours ago, Constantinople said:

So Joel's issue may not be to whom Tommy is married, but that he's married at all. In the same conversation with Ellie, Joel said Tommy is a "joiner" who signed up to save the world and that Tommy made the same mistake with the Fireflies.

So perhaps Joel is concerned that Tommy is making the same mistake again, or a similar mistake.

I think it's a mix of something like this, and realizing that Tommy has someone in his life besides Joel now. Not only has Tommy settled in, and moved on, he's not going to be able to just jump to Joel's side anymore. We see how Joel asked, but almost just assumed that Tommy would go with them to Colorado. 

I am glad they didn't drag out the fight between them, and that Joel left on good terms.

[Capricasix]

57 minutes ago, Lamima said:

It's a sub shop like Firehouse Subs or Quiznos or Subway (more like the first 2).

Oh, OK. I thought it was a variation on a potluck or something like that 😄 Thanks!

[LoveLeigh]

A few episodes ago I wrote a comment about what I perceived at times to be an inappropriate traveling team of Joel and Ellie. Reddit called it "sexual tension" between the two and even that reference was considered appalling.

However, here I am again noting an inappropriate exchange between the two of them. When Joel is showing Ellie how to shoot that rifle, he says "squeeze the trigger like you love it, gentle steady nice and slow" to which Ellie replies "you gonna shoot this thing or get it pregnant." Joel gives her a look open for interpretation. 

And just like that, there it is right there. What viewers thought they saw, we now see a glimpse of. Joel should have left her back there... but in order for the show to continue he had to take her. It is too long for those two to be traveling together and it is moving to grey areas of what is inappropriate banter. He is an older man and he is NOT her father. 

Edited February 21, 2023 by LoveLeigh

[Anela]

7 hours ago, paigow said:

It took 5 days of slow riding to reach Camp Firefly... turning back is not an option...

I guess that leaves out the couple from the cabin, too. When it comes to any kind of help. 

I've only read the first page, so far, but I thought Joel's issue was mainly that his brother started an entirely new life, and didn't tell him. He chose to get married, and stay in a community, and let Joel think that he was dead, or in danger. He was also with Tess for years, but that one QZ didn't look like any sort of place for marriage and a new family. 

[Starchild]

13 minutes ago, LoveLeigh said:

A few episodes ago I wrote a comment about what I perceived at times to be an inappropriate traveling team of Joel and Ellie. Reddit called it "sexual tension" between the two and even that reference was considered appalling.

However, here I am again noting an inappropriate exchange between the two of them. When Joel is showing Ellie how to shoot that rifle, he says "squeeze the trigger like you love it, gentle steady nice and show" to which Ellie replies "you gonna shoot this thing or get it pregnant." Joel gives her a look open for interpretation. 

And just like that, there it is right there. What viewers thought they saw, we now see a glimpse of. Joel should have left her back there... but in order for the show to continue he had to take her. It is too long for those two to be traveling together and it is moving to grey areas of what is inappropriate banter. He is an older man and he is NOT her father. 

I didn't see it that way. I still see it as a mentor/mentee at the least, parent/child at most. 

[Dev F]

12 minutes ago, LoveLeigh said:

And just like that, there it is right there. What viewers thought they saw, we now see a glimpse of.

I still caught absolutely no glimpse of anything like that. Ellie was making a joke about the fact that Joel's language toward their shooting target sounded sexual, she wasn't suggesting there's anything sexual between them, any more than I saw something sexual between Michael Scott and Jim on The Office when Michael joked, "That's what she said."

[Anela]

3 hours ago, mrspidey said:

You should see the one he gets in the game, lol. This is way more realistic.

 

Loved the native american couple at the beginning. After Bill and Frank, this is another pair that "won" the apocalypse. They've lived their live like that even before the outbreak. Nothing has changed for them.

She cracked me up, when she said, "I didn't want to" because I can relate, but this house was a good place to be at the beginning of the pandemic. Not that we're in a forest like that, just a town away from everything, unless you drive for a while. 

I was spoiled on her being in the show, and thought I knew her, when someone posted her picture on twitter, with "the rest of us", but I only knew who she was, when she spoke. Their gentle bickering was funny. 

[thuganomics85]

Ah, it never gets old watching the moment(s) when Pedro Pascal characters move past the reluctant babysitter persona and accept the truth: they are full-fledge dads now!

While I certainly don't want to oversaturate things, I would so be down to watch episodes or online segments of just Graham Greene and Elaine Miles' characters having random people show up at their cabin and they just roll their eyes, help out without really giving a fuck, and just give off a "we're already old as hell, what can you really do to us?!" vibe whenever threats are made.  Plus, they even provide food!  I hope these two characters also end things on their own terms like Bill and Frank or die of old age.  Seem like true survivors for sure.

Great seeing Tommy again and Gabriel Luna really knows how to make the most of his screen time.  You can really buy the complicated history between him and Joel: a history that has clearly put them at odds in a lot of ways, but that brotherly love is still there and it is a bond that can probably never be broken.  I also liked that the show isn't afraid to make Joel unlikable by not only focusing on his violent history, but having him initially be a jerk over finding out his brother has moved on and made a life for himself.  A life that is actually kind of good.  It's not a flattering look, but I find it believable that someone like Joel would react this way.  Really glad they also brought back up Sarah too and how her ghost as more or less haunts both of these men for the rest of their lives.  Just well done on so many levels.

Glad the big Joel/Ellie scene delivered.  Perfectly acted by Pedro Pascal and Bella Ramsey.

Always good seeing Rutina Wesley.  Been a fan ever since True Blood, where she always had to fight off some of the dumbest material on that silly show (not to mention all the online hate, which wasn't surprising, sadly...)

As great as the dramatic moments are, I really do think the humor is what is helping set this show apart from others in the genre or similar in nature.  Keep being surprised over how many times I find myself laughing out loud.

While he's been great in all of this, this episode definitely should at least get Pedro some Emmy consideration.  He is doing some impressive work here and I'm glad he is continuing to blow up.

I doubt Joel will actually die this way, but it is HBO....

[Jodithgrace]

I’m speculating based on, oh I don’t know, every tv show I’ve ever seen, that if we aren’t shown for sure and certain that a character is dead, they probably aren’t. And naturally HBO isn’t going to give away the farm by showing Joel in the previews. That said, his situation is certainly dire. A gut wound is a horrible way to die and infection (no not that kind) is a major risk even if she gets him to help, but this is fiction, after all. 
 

I did wish that Joel and Ellie could have stayed in Jackson for at least a couple of days to regroup, but I can see days turning into weeks. And it could turn bad for them if Ellie’s secret got out and anybody saw her bite scars. So getting out quickly was their best bet. 
 

Joel has never been inappropriate with Ellie. Ellie, on the other hand, speaks inappropriately to everybody, not just him. At first I found her language off putting, but now it just makes me chuckle, especially when people react to her. I don’t see even the hint of an inappropriate relationship between them. 

[shelley1234]

2 minutes ago, Jodithgrace said:

 

 

Joel has never been inappropriate with Ellie. Ellie, on the other hand, speaks inappropriately to everybody, not just him. At first I found her language off putting, but now it just makes me chuckle, especially when people react to her. I don’t see even the hint of an inappropriate relationship between them. 

Ellie swears like a trucker and likes getting a reaction out of people.  I love it! 

I also enjoy the couple of times Ellie has had to make Joel communicate in a different way to be seen as less aggressive or dickish to others.  Like when they first meet Henry and Sam and then this episode when she had to force Joel (through gritted teeth) to say congrats on Tommy and Maria being a thing.  

[Capricasix]

1 hour ago, LoveLeigh said:

However, here I am again noting an inappropriate exchange between the two of them. When Joel is showing Ellie how to shoot that rifle, he says "squeeze the trigger like you love it, gentle steady nice and show" to which Ellie replies "you gonna shoot this thing or get it pregnant." Joel gives her a look open for interpretation. 

And just like that, there it is right there. What viewers thought they saw, we now see a glimpse of. Joel should have left her back there... but in order for the show to continue he had to take her. It is too long for those two to be traveling together and it is moving to grey areas of what is inappropriate banter. He is an older man and he is NOT her father. 

She’s 14. Teenagers, especially young ones, love to say things that they think are shocking to adults around them. She’s testing her limits like many teenagers do. This does not mean that there’s some kind of inappropriate tension between them.

[Anela]

45 minutes ago, Jodithgrace said:

I’m speculating based on, oh I don’t know, every tv show I’ve ever seen, that if we aren’t shown for sure and certain that a character is dead, they probably aren’t. And naturally HBO isn’t going to give away the farm by showing Joel in the previews. That said, his situation is certainly dire. A gut wound is a horrible way to die and infection (no not that kind) is a major risk even if she gets him to help, but this is fiction, after all. 
 

I did wish that Joel and Ellie could have stayed in Jackson for at least a couple of days to regroup, but I can see days turning into weeks. And it could turn bad for them if Ellie’s secret got out and anybody saw her bite scars. So getting out quickly was their best bet. 
 

Joel has never been inappropriate with Ellie. Ellie, on the other hand, speaks inappropriately to everybody, not just him. At first I found her language off putting, but now it just makes me chuckle, especially when people react to her. I don’t see even the hint of an inappropriate relationship between them. 

He reminds me a bit of my dad. I was just thinking that. I say I'll do something, and he says, "I'm a dad, that's my job." 

[LoveLeigh]

2 hours ago, Dev F said:

I still caught absolutely no glimpse of anything like that. Ellie was making a joke about the fact that Joel's language toward their shooting target sounded sexual, she wasn't suggesting there's anything sexual between them, any more than I saw something sexual between Michael Scott and Jim on The Office when Michael joked, "That's what she said."

And why is she seeing anything sexual in what he is saying that has nothing to do with sex? 

1 hour ago, Capricasix said:

She’s 14. Teenagers, especially young ones, love to say things that they think are shocking to adults around them. She’s testing her limits like many teenagers do. This does not mean that there’s some kind of inappropriate tension between them.

In a group situation with others there it might be perceived differently, but they are together traveling alone and I heard it and perceived it the way I did. 

[CooperTV]

6 hours ago, Danny Franks said:

We're seeing Joel's age and potential fragility more in this episode, which is obviously a worry. Even more of a worry now he's been staked. He's talked about his knackered knees and his bad ear and you'd have to assume anyone who lived from 36 to 56 in the post-apocalypse would be a little worn down.

Joel: I'm so old, I'm half-deaf, my poor knees.

Also Joel: *kills a dude with his bare hands by breaking dude's neck*

I swear, this show sometimes...

[CooperTV]

3 hours ago, LoveLeigh said:

Joel gives her a look open for interpretation. 

He gave her a "God help me" look.

Your interpretation could be valid in one case: if Pedro Pascal started dating Bella Ramsey in real life (they do have over 20 years of age difference). Otherwise it's just Ellie being obnoxious teen.

[paigow]

1 hour ago, Anela said:

 "I'm a dad, that's my job." 

I can do my job warm. Or I can do my job cold.

[MrWhyt]

4 hours ago, LoveLeigh said:

Joel gives her a look open for interpretation. 

the look was pretty clearly "you little smart ass" or similar.

Quote

He is an older man and he is NOT her father. 

unrelated people of different genders and ages can spend time together without it automatically being a sexual thing. There is no evidence that either of them are sexually/romantically interested in each other, they're clearly developing a surrogate father/daughter relationship

 

[Anela]

Marlene clearly wasn't worried about Joel being alone with Ellie, and neither was Tess. His brother, too, who would know him better than all of them.

Edited February 21, 2023 by Anela

[Chicago Redshirt]

13 hours ago, Capricasix said:

The only thing puzzling me is, how Maria (Tommy’s wife? I think that was her name) is still young enough to have children. She was an ADA in the Before Times, which would mean that she would have had to have been a practicing lawyer for a few years at least, in addition to undergrad and law school - and the pandemic was 20 years ago - so she has to be *at least* in her mid-40s, and that’s being generous. Yes, I know that it’s possible for a woman to be pregnant at that age. It just made me think 🤷🏽‍♀️😄

One could be a ADA straight out of law school, and graduating law school at 23-24 isn't particularly unusual. So if you put Maria at 44-45, it'd just be harder for her to get pregnant and there would be risks. 

An aside: Maria is played by Rutina Wesley who is 44. I was glad to see her not just on the superficial level but also because I felt HBO owed her since they did her True Blood character dirty.

[Dev F]

51 minutes ago, CooperTV said:

Your interpretation could be valid in one case: if Pedro Pascal started dating Bella Ramsey in real life (they do have over 20 years of age difference).

 

6 minutes ago, Anela said:

Marlene clearly wasn't worried about Joel being alone with Ellie, and neither was Tess. His brother, too, who would know him better than all of them.

As I mentioned in the earlier episode thread where this reading came up, I don't think it's necessary to engage in this level of argument with an outlier reading that has not even occurred to the vast majority of viewers.

It feels like, I dunno, expending a lot of effort to try to disprove a reading of Cheers that claims Sam Malone is actually a serial murderer. The sufficient response is just "What are you talking about? This is not a thing."

[Nashville]

8 hours ago, Capricasix said:

My minor quibble was with Maria’s pregnancy, specifically the likelihood of a viable pregnancy at her age. What did the chalkboard memorial say about her son‘s birth year? Was it 1997? I’d have to go back and look.

It’s not a big deal, as it’s certainly possible for a woman to have a successful pregnancy in her late forties. Hilary Swank is something like 48 and pregnant with her first child, I believe.

It’s possible, but it ain’t real damn likely; my oldest daughter graced us with our first grandchild a couple of weeks before Thanksgiving - but hers was treated as a “high-risk” pregnancy due to her age, and she was only 34.  Right now, in our own real-life non-cordyceps-impacted world, a woman over age 40 is still sliding under the 50% mark for single-case fetal survival; think the post-cordy medical infrastructure available to Maria in Jackson CO will be doing better than that?

 

3 hours ago, Anela said:

I've only read the first page, so far, but I thought Joel's issue was mainly that his brother started an entirely new life, and didn't tell him. He chose to get married, and stay in a community, and let Joel think that he was dead, or in danger. 

Also, keep in mind: hadn’t been more than a couple of hours previous since Maria was was among those threatening to put a few soft-nosed rounds through Joel and Ellie’s collective brainpans.

 

3 hours ago, LoveLeigh said:

A few episodes ago I wrote a comment about what I perceived at times to be an inappropriate traveling team of Joel and Ellie. Reddit called it "sexual tension" between the two and even that reference was considered appalling.

However, here I am again noting an inappropriate exchange between the two of them. When Joel is showing Ellie how to shoot that rifle, he says "squeeze the trigger like you love it, gentle steady nice and show" to which Ellie replies "you gonna shoot this thing or get it pregnant." Joel gives her a look open for interpretation. 

And just like that, there it is right there. What viewers thought they saw, we now see a glimpse of. Joel should have left her back there... but in order for the show to continue he had to take her. It is too long for those two to be traveling together and it is moving to grey areas of what is inappropriate banter. He is an older man and he is NOT her father. 

Absolutely not meaning to be rude - but if you think every inappropriate thing a 14yo teen says/does is a sexual invitation, you really need to get out more. 😄 Pushing the boundaries of propriety is kinda their MO; it’s part of their process in trying to become adults.

And the “look” Joel was giving Ellie? - that was the look of an exasperated parent wishing the kid would just shove a sock in it for a least a few minutes and pay attention.  Hell, they oughta be paying me royalties for that expression.

[CooperTV]

3 hours ago, Dev F said:

As I mentioned in the earlier episode thread where this reading came up, I don't think it's necessary to engage in this level of argument with an outlier reading that has not even occurred to the vast majority of viewers.

Honestly, these interpretations are closer to the "Hermione Granger really changed over the summer, and Professor Snape falls in love with her" fanfiction than to anything else.

[Danny Franks]

5 hours ago, CooperTV said:

Joel: I'm so old, I'm half-deaf, my poor knees.

Also Joel: *kills a dude with his bare hands by breaking dude's neck*

I swear, this show sometimes...

Well, he never complained about his upper body strength.

5 hours ago, LoveLeigh said:

And why is she seeing anything sexual in what he is saying that has nothing to do with sex? 

In a group situation with others there it might be perceived differently, but they are together traveling alone and I heard it and perceived it the way I did. 

You know what, the show is clearly sexually progressive and that's a good thing, but I think 'grooming of a minor' might be just a slight step too far.

[paramitch]

One of my favorite little details in the episode was the use of The Goodbye Girl. The first scene they show is of Elliot meeting little Lucy (to whom he will eventually become a very close father figure), with Lucy expressing a preternaturally adult disdain for him. Then in the later scene (only heard, not seen), Lucy (who now cares for Elliot like family) is trying to cheer Elliot up after an absolutely disastrous Off-Broadway debut. The scene is honestly very touching, as Elliot looks absolutely WRECKED and like he's been just sitting at his dressing table weeping (Dreyfuss is really good there). But what's also notable about it is that it's the first time Lucy has seen Elliot display total vulnerability and despair. (The father-daughter aspect of The Goodbye Girl is honestly my favorite aspect of the film -- Dreyfuss and Quinn Cummings are just ridiculously charming together.)

I really don't think these choices were accidental in an episode in which we see Ellie and Joel really cementing their father-daughter bond, and in which Joel also for the first time not only tells Ellie he cares about her, but he also displays absolutely open fear, concern, worry, and sadness to her for the first time. It's just a nice little echo of subtext to the larger arc we see.

Or, as always, I am reading way too much into everything. (It's a gift.)

For me, the biggest and most important moment in this episode (and possibly in the entire series to date) isn't Joel's scene with Ellie, but his scene with Tommy. 

Because it's the first time he has ever been so naked and open (and it's the longest monologue he's had across the series, or close to it). Joel has been struggling since realizing Tommy has truly moved on, and now he sees himself clearly (if too harshly) for the first time -- as a man frozen in grief who has failed to keep every person he loved safe. Now by this miracle he's gotten Ellie here -- and he collapses for the first time, to the one person he can be truly honest with even as he's suffocating under the weight of his own despair and lack of self-confidence:

Joel: She saved my life there, from another kid. Five years ago, I would have destroyed him. But she had to shoot him to save me. Fourteen years old. Because I was too slow and too fuckin' deaf to hear him comin'. And I saw... I saw a man kill his own brother to save her while I just watched. And today I thought that dog was gonna tear her apart because it smelled somethin' on her. And all I did was stand there. I couldn't... move. I couldn't think of anything to say. I just... I was so afraid. You think I can handle things but I'm not who I was. I'm weak. Lately, there are these moments where the fear comes up outta nowhere, and... my heart... feels like it's stopped. And I have dreams... every night.
Tommy: What kind of dreams?
Joel: I don't know. I can't remember. I just know that when I wake up... I've lost somethin'. I'm failin' in my sleep. That's all I do. It's all I've ever done -- is fail her, again and again.
Tommy: You want me to take her.
Joel: I'm just gonna get her killed. I know it. I know it. I have to leave her.

The entire scene devastates me. The "her" is all of them -- it's Sarah. It's Tess. And now it's Ellie. And then Joel tears up when he admits he was afraid, and then when he says "I'm failing' in my sleep," he is openly (if quietly) weeping.

Pedro Pascal is just wonderful in this entire scene. He's been so good as "stoic Joel" all along, but this was brutal to watch -- all the self-doubt and age and tiredness and fear right there on the surface, everything he's been holding together so tightly just falling apart because he can finally do so in safety.

Just superb. Give him all the Emmys, please.

15 hours ago, cardigirl said:

I really enjoyed this episode, for all of the reasons stated by so many before me. The opening with the older survivors, Ellie and Joel bonding, the beautiful scenery they were walking/riding horses through. This is a gorgeous show, even if it is a post-apocalyptic world. Made me want to move to the Canadian Rockies. 

The visuals in this episode were really stunning. I loved that I was divided watching the gorgeous winterscapes the whole time -- enjoying the beauty while also thinking about how cold and scary it would be to be out in it.

15 hours ago, paigow said:

It took 5 days of slow riding to reach Camp Firefly... turning back is not an option...

Noooooooo! I forgot about that! I've been pinning all my hopes on Joel being rescued! Now I will simply insist on imagining that Tommy followed them. I also have a faint hope Marlon (Graham Greene) followed? I don't know. I got nothin'. I just know Joel has to be rescued. HE HAS TO BE.

15 hours ago, kay1864 said:

Same! I get the impression they took over an existing town, but enough liquor and feed for 10 years is already there? Doesn’t make sense.

I can buy their having those materials if I take into account that they would have had 20 years, an existing base, and capable outdoorspeople to gather everything they could find within a few days' ride (which would encompass some pretty significant abandoned/lost towns and homesteads, etc.).

15 hours ago, bethy said:

I also loved what we saw of Ellie and Joel’s conversation on the horse. Joel seemed much more open with Ellie and willing to engage with her. I think his conversation with Tommy and then with Ellie gave him some freedom to accept both what he was feeling with her and what she’s feeling to him. 

My take is that Bill's letter was the first major crack in Joel's armor since Sarah's death. He allowed himself to express grief, then walked back in, told Ellie he would take her with him, and even as they drove away, he was allowing himself a smile at her wisecracks. Everything since began with that. Then in episodes to follow, he began to genuinely engage, laugh at her jokes, and show open care for her. This episode was the flowering of all of that, and it moved me so much. I especially loved several dialogues that expressed this openly...

First, they actually talk to each other about our dreams. Then Joel wishes her good night, and it is the most dadlike thing ever:

Ellie: You want to take the first watch or the second?
Joel: I'll do both. Get some sleep. Dream of... sheep ranches on the moon.
Ellie: I will.

Then when they have their confrontation, Joel openly admits he cares about her. It's such a huge thing to me -- a far cry from calling her "cargo:"

Joel: I made this decision for your own good. You'll be way better off with Tommy. He knows the area better than I do.
Ellie: Do you give a shit about me or not?
Joel Miller: Of course I do.

Then the next morning, he's visibly scared and emotional, but willing:

Joel: I guess you deserve a choice. I still think you'd be better off with Tommy...
Ellie: Let's go.

That's why Ellie's final plea to an unconscious Joel hits me so hard. It's been subtle, but she's so desperate for a family, desperate to be loved and accepted. She loved Tess (and her quiet mama bear vibe) so much even after a day or two that she didn't want to leave her to die alone. Now she finally has Joel... and she might lose him:

Ellie: Joel, open your eyes. Open your eyes. Joel, you gotta get up... I can't fuckin' do this without you. I don't know where the fuck I'm going, what the fuck I'm gonna do. Joel... Please. Joel, please.

14 hours ago, dabbrusc said:

FYI, it wasn't a knife. It was the broken end of the baseball bat that the guy broke across the tree when the fight started.

Great observation! I thought it was a weird jagged weapon and could not figure that out.

12 hours ago, shelley1234 said:

I think Joel is most bothered that Tommy dared to make any kind of life whatsoever.   Joel stopped living when the mushrooms attacked, so how dare Tommy not do the same.  

I agree factually, but I don't quite see it the same way as you. It doesn't feel like Joel was angry at Tommy in a "how dare you" kind of way, but more that he was surprised and confused by Tommy's daring. Tommy was able to move on, and Joel was caught utterly off-guard. He thought he was going to rescue his "joiner" fuck-up of a brother, then he shows up and Tommy is safe, stable, in a terrific relationship, expecting a child, and in about as safe a situation as could be imagined. 

So to me, Joel seeing all this suddenly realizes ALL of his assumptions are out of date. That Tommy he describes is long gone, like Sarah is long gone. Seeing Tommy move on simply makes Joel feel even older, more lost and injured. Even though he's still trapped in that time 20 years ago, enough that he sees a woman with hair like Sarah's and part of him is desperate to hope it might actually be her even though he knows that's impossible.

Pedro Pascal absolutely killed this episode.

12 hours ago, Cheezwiz said:

I think Joel was terrified that if he divulged anything about Ellie's condition, the townspeople would have immediately turned on them and killed her. I think the smarter option would have been to stay awhile longer and let people get to know them, build some trust, and perhaps come up with some sort of cover story that would get others on board to form a protective posse. But that's just creature-comfort loving me talking!

I definitely think Joel was right that these people would have killed Ellie. Shoot, even when he's talking to Tommy, you see Tommy visibly recoil at knowing Ellie was bitten, instantly snapping to alertness, reflexively ready to go find and shoot her.

8 hours ago, LoveLeigh said:

A few episodes ago I wrote a comment about what I perceived at times to be an inappropriate traveling team of Joel and Ellie. Reddit called it "sexual tension" between the two and even that reference was considered appalling.

However, here I am again noting an inappropriate exchange between the two of them. When Joel is showing Ellie how to shoot that rifle, he says "squeeze the trigger like you love it, gentle steady nice and slow" to which Ellie replies "you gonna shoot this thing or get it pregnant." Joel gives her a look open for interpretation. 

And just like that, there it is right there. What viewers thought they saw, we now see a glimpse of. Joel should have left her back there... but in order for the show to continue he had to take her. It is too long for those two to be traveling together and it is moving to grey areas of what is inappropriate banter. He is an older man and he is NOT her father. 

With all respect, if (1) you genuinely have these conservative beliefs about appropriate/inappropriate banters/interactions between adults and children even in apocalyptic scenarios -- and (2) given your continued and ongoing sexualized interpretation of the relationship between Joel and Ellie -- why are you still watching? I'm genuinely curious.

7 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

I would so be down to watch episodes or online segments of just Graham Greene and Elaine Miles' characters having random people show up at their cabin and they just roll their eyes, help out without really giving a fuck, and just give off a "we're already old as hell, what can you really do to us?!" vibe whenever threats are made. 

I would watch the hell out of that show.

4 hours ago, MrWhyt said:

There is no evidence that either of them are sexually/romantically interested in each other, they're clearly developing a surrogate father/daughter relationship

This episode even made that subtext TEXT, by having Joel experience actual visions of his dead daughter as he struggles with whether to abandon his journey with Ellie. I don't know how they could possibly make the parent/child aspect any clearer.

[Capricasix]

9 hours ago, CooperTV said:

He gave her a "God help me" look.

Your interpretation could be valid in one case: if Pedro Pascal started dating Bella Ramsey in real life (they do have over 20 years of age difference). Otherwise it's just Ellie being obnoxious teen.

I mean, he’s no Leonardo DiCaprio 🤷🏽‍♀️😄 (and thank dog for that!)

Edited to add that I haven’t listened to it yet, but I’ve read on social media that the HBO podcast revealed that Pedro ad-libbed Joel’s speech in the scene with Tommy. Even more reason why he deserves an Emmy! (I mean, he deserves one just for being incredibly hot, but they don’t seem to have a category for that 😡😄)

Serial editing to add - after listening to the relevant part of the podcast, I learned that Craig Mazin wrote most of it but Pedro ad-libbed the line about waking up and feeling like Joel lost something, and all he’s ever done is fail her, again and again  🥺 (I feel like he’s also talking about Sarah and Tess, not just about Ellie)

Edited February 21, 2023 by Capricasix
add relevant information

[Chicago Redshirt]

7 hours ago, Dev F said:

It feels like, I dunno, expending a lot of effort to try to disprove a reading of Cheers that claims Sam Malone is actually a serial murderer. The sufficient response is just "What are you talking about? This is not a thing."

I don't know..he's charming, manipulative, occasionally violent, and has an addiction problem...and you did never see many of his former dates ever again....

[Chicago Redshirt]

Random question that would probably be a guess:

Can dogs in this world actually smell infected on people, or was that a bluff with the intention of having anybody bitten give themselves away, like the story with the alleged lie detector pig covered in soot?

[bethy]

1 hour ago, paramitch said:

I agree factually, but I don't quite see it the same way as you. It doesn't feel like Joel was angry at Tommy in a "how dare you" kind of way, but more that he was surprised and confused by Tommy's daring. Tommy was able to move on, and Joel was caught utterly off-guard. He thought he was going to rescue his "joiner" fuck-up of a brother, then he shows up and Tommy is safe, stable, in a terrific relationship, expecting a child, and in about as safe a situation as could be imagined. 

So to me, Joel seeing all this suddenly realizes ALL of his assumptions are out of date. That Tommy he describes is long gone, like Sarah is long gone. Seeing Tommy move on simply makes Joel feel even older, more lost and injured. Even though he's still trapped in that time 20 years ago, enough that he sees a woman with hair like Sarah's and part of him is desperate to hope it might actually be her even though he knows that's impossible.

Yes. And I think that there are older, caretaking sibling/younger, matured sibling dynamics at play. Both men are negotiating the change in their relationship, hence both of them lashing out at each other when Joel makes assumptions about Tommy and Tommy pushes back/rebels against Joel as an authority. What’s so lovely is that they’re able then to come back together and start to interact with each other more as equals as both of them are willing to make adjustments.

[Dev F]

6 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Random question that would probably be a guess:

Can dogs in this world actually smell infected on people, or was that a bluff with the intention of having anybody bitten give themselves away, like the story with the alleged lie detector pig covered in soot?

The showrunners point out in the podcast for this episode that Mercy, the dog in the first episode, did seem to sense that there was something wrong with the old lady when she was first infected.

Edited to add: Wait, no, looking back at the podcast I don't see where they say that, but I definitely saw someone bring it up somewhere.

Edited February 21, 2023 by Dev F

[paigow]

 A Very USEFUL train engine will save Joel... 

[Chicago Redshirt]

36 minutes ago, Dev F said:

The showrunners point out in the podcast for this episode that Mercy, the dog in the first episode, did seem to sense that there was something wrong with the old lady when she was first infected.

Edited to add: Wait, no, looking back at the podcast I don't see where they say that, but I definitely saw someone bring it up somewhere.

I remember that scene and the subtext was that the dog did know something was amiss. But it could have been a factor of that particular dog's familiarity with the dog's owner as opposed to actively sniffing out fungal infection on a random stranger.

[Capricasix]

14 minutes ago, paigow said:

 A Very USEFUL train engine will save Joel... 

Thomas had never seen such a mess!

[Capricasix]

I friggin love this show. I’m always thinking about it. I was listening to the podcast while driving a few minutes ago, and it occurred to me that Joel reminds me of Stu Redman from The Stand (I developed a huge crush on Gary Sinise after watching that). Stu and Joel are both from Texas, albeit East Texas in Stu’s case; they’re roughly the same age although I think Joel’s a bit older; and they both have to make their way across the US after a pandemic. They’re both good with their hands (this is not the place for fanfiction Capricasix STOP IT RIGHT NOW) and can look after themselves and others in the outdoors.

Also, Joel and Ellie are a clan of two 🥲

[DigitalCount]

32 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I remember that scene and the subtext was that the dog did know something was amiss. But it could have been a factor of that particular dog's familiarity with the dog's owner as opposed to actively sniffing out fungal infection on a random stranger.

I feel like maybe it could be a combination of both. Like, dogs can sense that their owners or people they're used to being around are infected due to familiarity, but the people misinterpret that as a general ability to sense the fungus?

[shelley1234]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Random question that would probably be a guess:

Can dogs in this world actually smell infected on people, or was that a bluff with the intention of having anybody bitten give themselves away, like the story with the alleged lie detector pig covered in soot?

I don't know the answer, but I think it is possible. Just like you can train a dog to follow a scent or track the scent of human remains, you could train a dog to alert to the scent of the fungus in the infected.   Sure.  Why not.  

[Danny Franks]

12 minutes ago, shelley1234 said:

I don't know the answer, but I think it is possible. Just like you can train a dog to follow a scent or track the scent of human remains, you could train a dog to alert to the scent of the fungus in the infected.   Sure.  Why not.  

Yeah, dogs can be trained to smell drugs, explosives, cash and some are even able to detect cancer. There's no reason they couldn't also smell a fungus inside someone.

[paigow]

9 hours ago, paramitch said:

Ellie: Joel, open your eyes. Open your eyes. Joel, you gotta get up... I can't fuckin' do this without you. I don't know where the fuck I'm going, what the fuck I'm gonna do. Joel... Please. Joel, please.

Unfortunately, Ellie cannot know that these magic words would wake Joel...

Talk to me Goose

Edited February 21, 2023 by paigow