S01.E04: Please Hold My Hand

[magdalene]

4 hours ago, LoveLeigh said:

It was not the joke that would lead to a prelude to romance. It was the subliminal undertones of their ongoing connection as they travel that to me seemed (if Ellie was over 21) would have been a gateway to moving the relationship to another level. It would be viewed as "sexual tension." I see it, sense it, and that is all I am saying. 

"sexual tension"???? I think you may be projecting things onto those two characters that are neither in the text or the subtext. And I don't think it matters were the girl to turn 21.  I just totally disagree with the entire notion which seems like bad fan fiction. No offense to anybody who likes fan fiction.

I understand Joel is played by Pedro Pascal who is a fine man but there is such a thing as writerly intent for both the game and the TV adaptation, and I am guessing those two characters are not a couple in either.

[LoveLeigh]

1 hour ago, CooperTV said:

I mean, Pedro Pascal is fan favorite and also really hot but I'd still argue those "unfortunate implications" you're talking about pretty much non-existent. The writers have no clue it's coming off a certain way to some viewers as well.

It is in the way the actors interact, the way they look at each other and react to each other, and the way they say the lines and even in a simple gesture like Joel putting on Ellie's seatbelt. I think it was hard to do these scenes as actors. I don't think it is the writers' intention or the actors' intention but when I watch it I feel it and see it. It is a young 14 year old girl traveling with an older man who is not her father and they live in close quarters and they are getting close and it just hits me a certain way when I see it. So sue me lol.

ETA: I Googled to see if anybody else was seeing this and came across an old Reddit thread where this was discussed and apparently some people saw it in the video game. I am not a sicko, not a demented degenerate  or "pedo" and I saw it without even knowing anybody else saw it years ago. 

on Reddit 10 years ago

re: "100% agree.  I am glad most don't see that or feel it.  But I guess it is a fact how normalized it is to sexual young girls.  It's quite depressing to me."

I am not sexualizing her. This is based on what I see in their interactions, the way they talk to each other and in their own expressions and demeanors.  There is an undertone that is palpable. 

Edited February 7, 2023 by LoveLeigh

[shelley1234]

45 minutes ago, magdalene said:

"sexual tension"???? I think you may be projecting things onto those two characters that are neither in the text or the subtext. And I don't think it matters were the girl to turn 21.  I just totally disagree with the entire notion which seems like bad fan fiction. No offense to anybody who likes fan fiction.

I understand Joel is played by Pedro Pascal who is a fine man but there is such a thing as writerly intent for both the game and the TV adaptation, and I am guessing those two characters are not a couple in either.

100% agree.  I am glad most don't see that or feel it.  But I guess it is a fact how normalized it is to sexualize young girls.  It's quite depressing to me.  

Edited February 7, 2023 by shelley1234

[Absurda]

I suspect that if Ellie were male or Joel a woman people would be less likely to see any undertones.  The man and woman in danger together become lovers trope is soooo common in movies and tv shows like this that audiences are primed to expect it.  So when one of the characters is under aged it feels off because we're so used to seeing the mains as a couple in the end.  Parent/child or mentor/apprentice parings are much less common with male/female pairs.

[Dev F]

19 minutes ago, Absurda said:

I suspect that if Ellie were male or Joel a woman people would be less likely to see any undertones.

I mean, it's not like a lot of people are seeing undertones as it is. There's always going to be a small subset of people who have an outlier reading of any given story, but the overwhelming majority of responses I've seen seem to be reading it as a quasi-father-daughter relationship as the creators intended.

[LoveLeigh]

35 minutes ago, Absurda said:

I suspect that if Ellie were male or Joel a woman people would be less likely to see any undertones.  The man and woman in danger together become lovers trope is soooo common in movies and tv shows like this that audiences are primed to expect it.  So when one of the characters is under aged it feels off because we're so used to seeing the mains as a couple in the end.  Parent/child or mentor/apprentice parings are much less common with male/female pairs.

"I suspect that if Ellie were male or Joel a woman people would be less likely to see any undertones." Not me, it would still have a yuck factor: a weird Mary Kay Letourneau vibe. I just don't like any adult traveling around, sleeping and eating next to a child that is not theirs, and forming a "team" where they protect each other. It is not my cup of tea. 

[conquistador]

I’m not seeing or feeling the sexual tension that you’re describing… Neither did I from the game. I am however getting the vibe of reluctant father figure (who says himself that ”family” is the reason for survival). The whole point of the first episode was laying the foundation for that dynamic.

I get that they are leaning towards eachother. But it is not sexual, it’s more so that their society is so dangerous and have so few people whose company you can enjoy, that you have protect the few friends you do get along the way. Bill and Frank showcased this perfectly (though they actually were sexual, but that’s beside the point).

[CooperTV]

3 hours ago, Absurda said:

I suspect that if Ellie were male or Joel a woman people would be less likely to see any undertones. 

I can reasonably conclude from my experience with the show and from thousands of comments on the current TLoU related subreddit that viewers see Joel as a father figure to Ellie (as it's intended by the show itself, not to mention, by the source material of said show written by the same people). There's no undertones to it.

I'd consider, again, that it's just Pedro Pascal being himself and bringing his own charm and physicality to the role. Perhaps that translates weirdly to some people but saying it should be obvious to everybody is a bit of a stretch.

 

2 hours ago, LoveLeigh said:

I just don't like any adult traveling around, sleeping and eating next to a child that is not theirs, and forming a "team" where they protect each other. It is not my cup of tea. 

It's called "reluctant guardian to a child". We also have adoptive/surrogate parenting system in our world, where strangers are caring for children with no/problematic parents, so no issues for here as well.

Plus, Ellie is not anyone's child, as of right now, and I do feel the show considers it to be a problem to correct in the future, at least in some form. 

 

[Capricasix]

Respectfully, if only a minor subset of viewers perceives undercurrents between the main characters, and hardly any other viewers see the same - I think that’s more to do with what those viewers bring to the table. By that, I mean that’s what those viewers are expecting to see because of the previously mentioned and pervasive  male/female trope in our popular culture.

As to Joel and Ellie “sleeping and eating next to each other”, well, I’ll note that the two times we’ve seen them sleeping, there’s been an emphatic distance between them.

[CooperTV]

52 minutes ago, Capricasix said:

By that, I mean that’s what those viewers are expecting to see because of the previously mentioned and pervasive  male/female trope in our popular culture.

Funnily enough, it's not the first time Pedro plays the role of a reluctant companion to a small innocent creature, and it's not even the first time where his reluctant companion is a 14-year-old girl. I wonder what viewers that inclined to see sexual tension would say about that Pedro Pascal film. But The Prospect is 100% off-topic here.

Edited February 7, 2023 by CooperTV

[tennisgurl]

I am always happy to see Melanie Lynskey on my TV, even if Kathleen and her group are scary as hell. I guess they were a group that managed to successfully get rid of FEDRA, but unfortunately they haven't turned out to be any better, just different. While FEDRA is ruthless and cruel, they justify what they do as a brutal pragmatism that is necessary for the survival of the species, while these guys are fighting in the name of revenge against what was previously done to them, and that everything they do is justified in protecting themselves and weeding out anyone who might be an enemy. From what we can gather happened here, its hard to call anyone the heroes. And now Joe and Ellie are caught up in the whole mess. 

I really enjoyed the light moments between Joe and Ellie, especially them both cracking up at Ellie's stupid joke. In the midst of this crappy zombie world, its the little things that keep you going. 

The bond forming between Ellie and Joe is very clearly a surrogate parent and child, I have no idea how anyone could interpret it as anything even close to romantic. If someone is picking up "undertones" it probably says more about that person than it does about the show.

Edited February 7, 2023 by tennisgurl

[shelley1234]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

 

The bond forming between Ellie and Joe is very clearly a surrogate parent and child, I have no idea how anyone could interpret it as anything even close to romantic. If someone is picking up "undertones" it probably says more about that person than it does about the show.

I 100% agree.  I also think may be some implicit bias going on.  How a young girl's actions at 14 is sexualized and seen more as a woman than as the child she is.  For me Ellie is even more child like because of her arrested development due to her life experiences.  Same as young Black boys are often seen as adults and given adult consequences when their white counterparts are treated like the children that they are.  

I think it's amazing that this show is showing a growing relationship between Joel and Ellie, particularly for Ellie who it seems has never had a paternal relationship in her life.  The joy she gets telling him her pun jokes is so sweet and genuine to me.  I think it is darling cute.  

I generally don't like zombie shows.  They just aren't for me.  I've never seen a second of TWD.  I also don't play video games and had never heard of the game before. I started watching it because everyone was talking about it and I wanted to see Boston as a dystopian nightmare. However, the relationships have really made an impact, even from those who are a one off like Bill and Frank and Tess who was gone too soon.  And yep, the slow build of the relationship between Ellie and Joel.  That's what is getting me to come back for more.  The zombies...can take them or leave them.  

[go4luca]

36 minutes ago, shelley1234 said:

I generally don't like zombie shows.  They just aren't for me.  I've never seen a second of TWD.  I also don't play video games and had never heard of the game before. I started watching it because everyone was talking about it and I wanted to see Boston as a dystopian nightmare. However, the relationships have really made an impact, even from those who are a one off like Bill and Frank and Tess who was gone too soon.  And yep, the slow build of the relationship between Ellie and Joel.  That's what is getting me to come back for more.  The zombies...can take them or leave them.  

Re: TWD and zombies, I'm the same.  I thought I was the only one on the planet who didn't watch TWD.  When I saw the first season of TWD's trailer and realized zombies were involved, I noped right out. 

It was the cast of HBO's The Last of Us that roped me in.  So far, I haven't been disappointed.

[b4pjoe]

44 minutes ago, go4luca said:

I thought I was the only one on the planet who didn't watch TWD.

That makes 3 of us now.

[opus]

3 minutes ago, b4pjoe said:

That makes 3 of us now.

4

[paigow]

6 minutes ago, opus said:

4

Is that The Last Of You?

[Ilovepie]

I don't see anything even remotely romantic in the interactions between Joel and Ellie. In fact,  I was thinking that some of how Joel talks to Ellie reminds me of how Din speaks to Grogru. My heart did break a little for her when Joel referred to Tess as family but Ellie as cargo. You could see it hurt her. Not cool Joel!

I have seen articles on social media where people are disappointed at the lack of violence in this show, but for me, it comes as a welcome relief. There are ten thousand other shows people can watch if they need to see abundant carnage. I like that this one is spending as much time making quality characters as it is on prosthetic monster mayhem.

Although much like all of these type of shows, the actual humans left at the end of the world are the biggest threat. Still, Kathleen doesn't seem like your average apocalyptic maniac, so I look forward to seeing where this goes.....

[Starchild]

Years ago I did wonder what TWD might be like if it were on HBO. 

[Capricasix]

5 hours ago, opus said:

4

👋🏼

[magdalene]

9 hours ago, shelley1234 said:

I generally don't like zombie shows.  They just aren't for me.  I've never seen a second of TWD.  I also don't play video games and had never heard of the game before. I started watching it because everyone was talking about it and I wanted to see Boston as a dystopian nightmare. However, the relationships have really made an impact, even from those who are a one off like Bill and Frank and Tess who was gone too soon.  And yep, the slow build of the relationship between Ellie and Joel.  That's what is getting me to come back for more.  The zombies...can take them or leave them. 

Nods. This show is not my thing. My eyes glazed over trying to watch TWD a couple of times. I am simply watching for Pedro Pascal. Getting Nick Offerman for 1 episode was an unexpected treat.  I am however certain this show is dumb enough to kill off Joel. So this may be one of those shows that I never finish. I am prepared for it.

[Shermie]

On 2/6/2023 at 7:16 PM, LoveLeigh said:

Women and men of course can be friends.  But all I am saying is when I watch this particular show as it develops I see at times what could be perceived as "sexual tension" between them. Not all the time, but enough for me to have sensed it. Maybe it is the writing, or the way it is acted, or something else. But I see it and feel it in the most innocuous scenes. 

I completely disagree. I think the few who see this are projecting, maybe from personal experiences which is unfortunate. But it’s not here in this show; it just isn’t.

11 hours ago, shelley1234 said:

I generally don't like zombie shows.  They just aren't for me.  I've never seen a second of TWD.  I also don't play video games and had never heard of the game before. I started watching it because everyone was talking about it and I wanted to see Boston as a dystopian nightmare. However, the relationships have really made an impact, even from those who are a one off like Bill and Frank and Tess who was gone too soon.  And yep, the slow build of the relationship between Ellie and Joel.  That's what is getting me to come back for more.  The zombies...can take them or leave them.  

100% this. The commercials intrigued me, but I thought, meh, zombies. And the whole dystopian world where most people want to kill anyone else who survives rather than rebuild together. But I started watching anyway because of all the good press, and I really like it so far.

[paigow]

2 hours ago, magdalene said:

I am however certain this show is dumb enough to kill off Joel. So this may be one of those shows that I never finish. I am prepared for it.

Game Of Thrones producers not involved...

Edited February 8, 2023 by paigow

[Shermie]

TBH, I prefer shows that have the balls to kill off main characters. It’s much more realistic, especially in an unpredictable dystopian society. I stopped watching most network dramas because in spite of the dire voiceovers of doom about the upcoming episode’s tornado/earthquake/car accident/train derailment/explosion, you could almost guarantee the main cast would survive. Takes away any tension.

And yes, I know that occasionally a main character is killed off when the actor quits the show, but because we know in advance that the actor is quitting the show, there’s no suspense there either. And half the time, they bring back the actor as a long lost twin or in a dream or whatever; total cornball soapy schlock.

So if they kill off Joel it would be devastating plot-wise and for the viewers, but it would be realistic and brave writing.

[paramitch]

I thought this was another really, really strong episode. I love the way Neil Druckmann and Craig Mazin are choosing to continue to focus on a larger, more complex narrative than "apocalyptic fungus-zombies!" but are instead focusing on themes like what it means to be human, on living versus surviving (so gorgeously presented last week with Bill and Frank), and that humans will always end up the real monsters.

As a gamer, I loved all the affectionate little callouts to the game in this one -- a few smaller, charming scenes were almost verbatim. It's also great to see appearances from game performers like Jeffrey Pierce (Tommy in the game) onscreen here as Perry.

What I loved most here was the fact that -- after we saw Bill's letter crack the wall around Joel's hard heart, this week we really see the outcome of that, and that Bill is softening and letting Ellie in, in spite of himself. Pedro for me is doing a beautiful job of portraying this guy whose fatherly instincts are part of who he is even years later, so we get the little moments like him helping her with her seat belt (last week), or gruffly letting her snarky, annoying, arrogant teenage-girl-ness get to him. The interactions between them this week were so poignant to me -- we can see Ellie trying to chisel down Joel's walls (the "you're cargo" comment was so brutal!). She acts like she doesn't care if he cares about her, but we can see that she cares very deeply, and how much it means to her to be able to make him laugh.

The final moments of them chuckling together (before they are awakened by Henry and Sam) really signaled the warmth I have so badly wanted to see from them. No matter how tough Ellie pretends to be, she is still a little girl, so watching her having to navigate the horrifying reality of killing Brian, or Joel's indifference, is very moving to me. It's totally natural for her to gravitate to seeking family and parental figures.

Meanwhile, Melanie Lynskey was terrific (as she always is) as Kathleen -- I loved that we can see that she is an effective leader, and someone who has genuinely suffered her own losses, but at the same time, we can also see that her power has corrupted her, and that her focus on revenge against Henry now has her making horrific and depraved decisions --  assuming he "hired" Joel and Ellie, her indiscriminate killing, her remaining unmoved in the face of little Sam's drawings (their little hideaway broke my heart), and her ignoring the MASSIVE threat that is surely going to emerge from under the city (interesting that that creepy ground 'breathing' was our only appearance of cordyceps/zombies this week at all).

As someone who suffered through four seasons of TWD before noping out hard (the fact that the showrunners thought Negan was "cool" to the point that they had fun polls about who he would kill next, his bat was a twitter graphic, etc., was too much for me). So for me, I love so much that this is so much more than a "zombie show" and that (bonus points) Joel and Ellie already managed to cross multiple states, unlike the doomed TWD idiots.

Last but not least, that shot of the little boy (certainly Sam) wearing his superhero mask as he "shushed" Joel was so sad! He's so little! Kathleen is a monster for wanting to go after these two kids (Henry didn't appear to be that much older).

On 2/5/2023 at 8:54 PM, Constantinople said:

It appears Joel made an impulsive decision and a bad one, saying "Screw it" to Ellie after she asked how long they'd have to backtrack. I'm guessing Joel had some fixed timeline in his head for how long it should take to get to Wyoming.

That said it was still odd given how careful Joel was as shown to be earlier in the episode.

I think here that Joel's experience had him too self-assured. He just needed to dip into the city by a few streets to get to the next onramp, and I think his own experiences had him thinking they would be able to identify dangers ahead of time. I do think it was taking a chance, and that his desperation to get to Tommy is part of it (they didn't even stay one night in comfort at Bill and Frank's, for instance, and I think 99% of humanity would have at least taken one night to get some rest in a clean, comfortable, safe setting like that).

On 2/5/2023 at 10:14 PM, thuganomics85 said:

Wherever it is fending off dumb puns or giving advice for when you have to kill people, Joel clearly sees Ellie more than just "cargo", despite his claims earlier.  Again, Pedro Pascal and Bella Ramsey really play off one another extremely well.

The growth of their friendship, and how it is palpably settling into "Dad and kid" mode is so moving to me. When Joel told Ellie, "Look at me, you can make it, they are not going to shoot you" when she was visibly terrified, really got me. I also appreciated the latest little moments of Ellie's fear or emotion that remind us she is absolutely still a little kid in most ways, no matter how smart or self-possessed she seems.

On 2/6/2023 at 12:19 AM, LoveLeigh said:

I actually came here to say that some of the scenes between Joel and Ellie make me uncomfortable. I felt like this last week when they were in the car, when he told her to put on her seatbelt, but kept quiet about it but after this week.... I don't know it could be me and the personal history I bring to the show. 

The "chemistry" at times between them gets too close for comfort. The way she giggles and laughs, it could be how the actor playing Ellie makes those scenes almost flirtatious... I don't know. And I hesitate to say that is what I sometimes see.... 

I am so disheartened to see anyone reading Ellie and Joel's relationship this way, and am dismayed at the way even the most innocent scenes between a young female character and an older male character may be sexualized. Joel's tentativeness with her seatbelt was not about sexual intimacy, but about his unwillingness to get in her space and help her as he would have once helped his daughter -- it was visibly bringing up too much of his "Dad-self" that he had walled off.

On 2/6/2023 at 3:37 AM, Haleth said:

Love that Joel is thawing wrt Ellie.  Loved that they both laughed over her stupid jokes.

The one that got me was Joel grimacing to the scarecrow "out standing in his field." It was a funny, sweet moment where we see him breaking down and giving in to the Dadness of his situation. (And Ellie thinking he must have read her book was so funny and sweet, not realizing it's an ancient joke.)

On 2/6/2023 at 8:18 AM, iMonrey said:

Well, I liked the first half of this. It's the smaller stories I'm looking for. Once they throw in a whole gang of Mad Max cosplayers, I lose interest. It's just too much of a post-apocalyptic dystopian trope to constantly have to fend off some marauding gang. Seen it, seen it, seen it. Kind of reminds me of Negan and the Saviors, which is when I lost interest in The Walking Dead. That's just a different kind of show, a different kind of story, and one that I'm not really interested in.

See, I'm the opposite. I was frustrated with TWD because the writing on that stuff was so wildly inconsistent that it never felt real or believable. Here, with the QZs, FEDRA, and even with this brief glimpse of the KC raiders/mercenaries, I feel like we're seeing a pretty believable devolution of society 20 years after it crumbles, and for me, Kathleen is believable and fascinating -- she visibly has a reason to be angry at FEDRA, but at the same time, she's taking that classic "eye for an eye" approach that leaves the whole world blind. This was further echoed by the mercs screaming angrily at Joel when he killed their friends, even though they shot first.

I think Mazin & Druckmann are genuinely attempting to say something more complex here about what happens to people in these situations -- and that was especially clear to me as we see Ellie have to parse that Joel once did these very same things (with Tess) in his past, in order to survive. Which of course also brings up the "atonement" aspect of his journey here. It's not just about protection. He and Tess did terrible things together, they both admitted that, so this is Joel's penance.

On 2/6/2023 at 8:32 AM, Capricasix said:

I felt bad for them losing the truck and all their supplies. Joel didn’t even get his backpack :(

I was shrieking at him when he left his backpack, and the raiders got all of Bill's carefully prepped supplies! I was like, "YOU DON'T DESERVE BILL AND FRANK'S SUPPLIES!" Aghghgh. (And RIP, Frank's nice-smelling sleeping bag! Bill's probably smelled like gunpowder.)

On 2/6/2023 at 1:19 PM, Dev F said:

Me neither, except for maybe the inherent tension in our culture's expectations for masculinity vs. paternal tenderness, as expressed in this song from the show Crazy Ex Girlfriend:

 

Oh, one of my favorite songs from "Crazy Ex-Girlfriend!" Such a hilarious and funny pastiche on all those semi-creepy country songs about fathers and daughters.

On 2/6/2023 at 9:28 PM, LoveLeigh said:

ETA: I Googled to see if anybody else was seeing this and came across an old Reddit thread where this was discussed and apparently some people saw it in the video game. I am not a sicko, not a demented degenerate  or "pedo" and I saw it without even knowing anybody else saw it years ago. 

on Reddit 10 years ago

Oh, I have no doubt that certain people imagined something sexual between Ellie and Joel even back in the videogame (I wouldn't touch that or any Reddit thread on the topic with a ten-foot pole). And I'm sure there are some reading into it even now with the show.

I'm just quite certain it is not the intent of Druckmann, Mazin, Pascal, or Ramsey in presenting this material. And I personally don't see it, and find the premise really upsetting and sad, since it needlessly pollutes the story's genuinely wholesome and uplifting core relationship.

On 2/6/2023 at 10:38 PM, LoveLeigh said:

"I suspect that if Ellie were male or Joel a woman people would be less likely to see any undertones." Not me, it would still have a yuck factor: a weird Mary Kay Letourneau vibe. I just don't like any adult traveling around, sleeping and eating next to a child that is not theirs, and forming a "team" where they protect each other. It is not my cup of tea. 

Does this mean that any story of an adult that rescues a child -- even in an apocalypse or life or death scenario -- has an inherent "Letourneau vibe?" 

On 2/7/2023 at 2:09 PM, Starchild said:

Years ago I did wonder what TWD might be like if it were on HBO. 

My vote: More consistent, better written and less sadistic. I still wish Darabont hadn't left.

[Nashville]

On 2/6/2023 at 1:33 PM, Msample said:

I read on another forum that maybe they were so far south because the Chicago area, being very heavily built up, would be a riskier place to transit from both a FEDRA standpoint as well as higher concentrations of infected . And to a comment upthread here, past communications could have confirmed this. '

And even infected notwithstanding - it’s been, what, about two decades since anybody has done anything resembling infrastructure maintenance?  Wouldn’t surprise me overmuch if a third of the major river crossing bridges hadn’t already ended up at the bottom of their respective channels, so your route is likely to run a tad askew.  😉

[paigow]

3 hours ago, paramitch said:

I was shrieking at him when he left his backpack, and the raiders got all of Bill's carefully prepped supplies! I was like, "YOU DON'T DESERVE BILL AND FRANK'S SUPPLIES!"

The Ravioli is 20 years old....

[paigow]

3 hours ago, paramitch said:

Kathleen is believable and fascinating -- she visibly has a reason to be angry at FEDRA, but at the same time, she's taking that classic "eye for an eye" approach

She must have already met this guy then....

[CooperTV]

3 hours ago, paramitch said:

Meanwhile, Melanie Lynskey was terrific (as she always is) as Kathleen -- I loved that we can see that she is an effective leader

She comes off as unhinged and completely ineffective in every way to me (kills a medical professional, who is more valuable than her entire motley crew combined, hunts a guy escaping with a small child, prioritize said guy over the infected's threat, etc). I think that's exactly the show's point so far. Mass-murdering people consider themselves to be "good" and also listen to a disturbed individual bent on a personal revenge crusade.

[paramitch]

I wanted to mention two other moments that really got me -- the injured raider guy Brian begging for his life and eventually just calling for his mother. Oh, man. I mean, yes, he would have killed them without hesitation, and Joel had to do what he did, but it was still so hard to watch no matter what, and definitely added that little touch of humanity (the actor was terrific). And I appreciated that note of realism in the writing, that Brian was so real (and that it was hard for Joel and Ellie to contemplate killing him even if they knew it had to happen).

And Ellie crying (very quietly) -- first, when Joel killed Brian, and then later, when Joel talked kindly to her about what she had gone through, and that it wasn't fair -- again, I like seeing these softer sides of Ellie.

I also loved seeing the beauty and sadness of the destroyed cities and lands they drove through, slowly crumbling back into the earth.

5 hours ago, paigow said:

She must have already met this guy then....

LOL! I loved the Governor. I actually thought he was a terrific and complex villain (in direct contrast to Negan), and appeared one of TWD's few genuinely well-written arcs.

As a side note, I saw David Morrissey (who played him) onstage before he hit it big, back in 1999 or so, at the Donmar Warehouse with Colin Firth and Elizabeth McGovern in "Three Days of Rain," and he was absolutely electric onstage. He remains one of the  most charismatic performers I have ever seen. I was so glad he's ended up with a nice career of steady work.

I do think Kathleen (Melanie Lynskey) promises to be complex and watchable in similar ways, as well. She's definitely awful -- I still can't believe she stood in that hidey-hole, looking at that bleak dirty space, the empty cans, those child's pictures drawn by Sam, and was just like, "KILL THEM ALL." I'm not gonna lie, it will be satisfying if we get to watch Joel take her down.

Edited to Add: Honestly, as a former poor kid I who still has a soft spot for Chef Boyardee Ravioli, I would absolutely eat 20-year-old Chef Boyardee in an apocalypse.

4 hours ago, CooperTV said:

She comes off as unhinged and completely ineffective in every way to me (kills a medical professional, who is more valuable than her entire motley crew combined, hunts a guy escaping with a small child, prioritize said guy over the infected's threat, etc). I think that's exactly the show's point so far. Mass-murdering people consider themselves to be "good" and also listen to a disturbed individual bent on a personal revenge crusade.

I agree with everything you said, especially the sheer idiocy of killing a doctor in these times (and out of sheer spite, in a fit of pique). I definitely wasn't 'endorsing' Kathleen!

What I meant by "effective" is that she is an unlikely figure who has managed to harness this entire formidable group to her will, and (it's implied) utterly defeated the local FEDRA and closed the QZ.

She's obviously going off the deep end now in her current revenge agenda, and given her turning a deliberate blind eye to whatever impending horror is beneath those cracked foundations (I liked that we could see that Perry absolutely did not agree), I definitely think she and her people will pay for that.

And given that their revenge campaign includes deluding and massacring innocents, pursuing a kid protecting a child, and now what they did to Joel and Ellie, I'm looking forward to seeing them get some karmic payback.

Edited February 9, 2023 by paramitch
Forgot about the ravioli

[Dev F]

8 hours ago, CooperTV said:

She comes off as unhinged and completely ineffective in every way to me (kills a medical professional, who is more valuable than her entire motley crew combined, hunts a guy escaping with a small child, prioritize said guy over the infected's threat, etc). I think that's exactly the show's point so far. Mass-murdering people consider themselves to be "good" and also listen to a disturbed individual bent on a personal revenge crusade.

Yeah, I think one of the main themes of the episode is that when people lose everything, they still reach for the closest match for what they used to have. Hence the reference in the title of the episode: “Alone and forsaken by fate and by man / Oh Lord, if you hear me, please hold to my hand.” That's reflected in Joel's storyline most obviously, but also in the scenes with Kathleen: how the FEDRA center still pretended to honor preapocalyptic standards of criminal justice despite running an literal torture center, and how Kathleen is now echoing FEDRA in how she deals with her own prisoners, even though she led a revolution to overthrow them for their brutality!

My guess is that something similar is happening with Kathleen's supporters: they're following her because of what she used to mean to them—for overthrowing FEDRA—despite the fact that she's gone a bit mad with power herself since then.

[aghst]

Yeah they definitely showed a side of Joel who killed those guys.  But he had no choice, he knew they weren't going to just take their stuff and let them go on their way -- well they would have taken the truck and the fuel and the guns so they couldn't make their trip.

His priority is to get Ellie and himself out of there first, figure out how to make it to Wyoming some other way.

But like he said, he's been on both sides of ambushes so he knows how it would have gone if he didn't kill them.

If this was TWD, it wouldn't have been this ruthless, efficient confrontation.  No, Bryan would have done more than beg for his life, he would have given a speech and Joel would have done the same before trying to kill each other.

Then Kathleen would have speechified some more, even before killing the doctor.

 

[Capricasix]

10 hours ago, paigow said:

The Ravioli is 20 years old....

Haven’t I heard that military MREs can last even longer than that? 😄

[paigow]

If Kathleen has named her pistol... She cannot die soon enough... 

[paigow]

Too bad that Bill did not install run-flat tires...

[Constantinople]

13 hours ago, CooperTV said:

She comes off as unhinged and completely ineffective in every way to me (kills a medical professional, who is more valuable than her entire motley crew combined

He's an obstetrician not a trauma surgeon or an ER specialist. He hasn't worked in a "modern" hospital in 20 years and if he delivered Kathleen as he said he did, he likely completed his residency around 50 years ago, if not more. And this isn't a world where you need a doctor's signature for a prescription.

It's not that his skills and knowledge are useless, but a lot of them are linked to a medical infrastructure that no longer exists. Without anesthesia and a sterile environment, even a surgeon's usefulness wouldn't be as high as it was pre-pandemic.

So the question is how much more valuable his skills are than a medic, EMT, nurse or midwife that you do trust versus a doctor that you don't.

The doctor himself didn't make the case for keeping himself alive because he's a doctor, instead trying to work on Kathleen's emotions by reminding her that he delivered her. And it didn't look as if anyone was complaining that the doctor was locked up and not seeing patients.

It's not that killing him is necessarily a good idea, just that he's not untouchable.

[Danny Franks]

Oh, Ellie's joke book! That made me so happy. One of the great, tension breaking features of the game was her cracking terrible jokes from that book.

And Bill's magazine. Loved it.

The production values of this show continue to be incredible. The scenery on their way to Pittsburgh and then the city itself, it all looks so good.

I liked Bella Ramsey a lot in this one. Confident and cracking wise with Joel, but then you saw her nerves and how much she needed reassurance. She was obnoxious but in an endearing way. And it definitely brings out Joel's fatherly side, as much as he tries to resist. The scene where he taught her how to hold the gun was cute, although she of course refused to listen and put the gun in her pack.

I didn't buy the leader of the bad guys at all. I guess they were going for something different with her, but it didn't work for me. Miscast and just not convincingly scary. I don't believe for one second that she'd be in charge of an armed militia.

[conquistador]

1 hour ago, Constantinople said:

He's an obstetrician not a trauma surgeon or an ER specialist. He hasn't worked in a "modern" hospital in 20 years and if he delivered Kathleen as he said he did, he likely completed his residency around 50 years ago, if not more. And this isn't a world where you need a doctor's signature for a prescription.

It's not that his skills and knowledge are useless, but a lot of them are linked to a medical infrastructure that no longer exists. Without anesthesia and a sterile environment, even a surgeon's usefulness wouldn't be as high as it was pre-pandemic.

So the question is how much more valuable his skills are than a medic, EMT, nurse or midwife that you do trust versus a doctor that you don't.

The doctor himself didn't make the case for keeping himself alive because he's a doctor, instead trying to work on Kathleen's emotions by reminding her that he delivered her. And it didn't look as if anyone was complaining that the doctor was locked up and not seeing patients.

It's not that killing him is necessarily a good idea, just that he's not untouchable.

His fate was sealed when it was obvious he could not save the gang member and that he is not a miracle worker, but just a person like the rest. Most of the modern doctor’s usefulness is removed without access to drugs (antibiotics, sedatives), labs, scans and so on. But delivering babies should still be quite useful, as well as orthopedics, general surgery, trauma surgery, emergency medicine…

[Nashville]

7 hours ago, Constantinople said:

He's an obstetrician not a trauma surgeon or an ER specialist. He hasn't worked in a "modern" hospital in 20 years and if he delivered Kathleen as he said he did, he likely completed his residency around 50 years ago, if not more. And this isn't a world where you need a doctor's signature for a prescription.

No, but it is a world where actual working experience in the pre-IT-centric medical practice environments of 50+ years ago could be of significant value. 

 

7 hours ago, Constantinople said:

It's not that his skills and knowledge are useless, but a lot of them are linked to a medical infrastructure that no longer exists.

IMHO that statement would apply equally accurately to any doctor who completed their residency prior to the Great Collapse of the Soufflé Called “Society” - and maybe even more especially to the younger docs, who have never in their career so much as entertained the notion of practicing medicine without the use of a computer.

[CooperTV]

7 hours ago, Constantinople said:

It's not that his skills and knowledge are useless, but a lot of them are linked to a medical infrastructure that no longer exists. Without anesthesia and a sterile environment, even a surgeon's usefulness wouldn't be as high as it was pre-pandemic.

I don't think justifying Kathleen's outlandish decisions (it's not like she did only bad one) is productive. Karen  Kathleen wants to kill people, for survival or for revenge, it doesn't matter at this point. Maybe Joel would get her, maybe it's be infected but with her brilliant ruling strategy it'd be her bearded Lieutenant who does her in. You can't be hardened leader and a lady wanting to see a manager while killing doctors for no other reason you're crazy at the same time.

[paigow]

10 hours ago, Nashville said:

No, but it is a world where actual working experience in the pre-IT-centric medical practice environments...

Like her???

[paigow]

10 hours ago, CooperTV said:

but with her brilliant ruling strategy it'd be her bearded Lieutenant who does her in...

He must be related to one of these guys...

[Nashville]

On 1/18/2023 at 4:01 PM, nomodrama said:

This was good. I'm a huge fan of zombie lore (even though I quit TWD when Andrew Lincoln left), so I am very excited to see more. I had never heard of the game, so it's all new to me. 

I knew Sarah was going to die based on the fact that she wasn't featured in the promotional images but her death was still tragic and sad. I was expecting that it was going to turn out that she caught the virus from the neighbors which was going to make Joel feel guilty forever since he sent her over there. I don't think the soldier didn't believe them that she wasn't sick, I think it was more orders from the top to contain the spread and therefore not let anyone leave type of thing, which is still terribly. 

It's interesting that their plan was going to be go to Mexico....I can't imagine things would have been going much better there. And that's the question in a situation like this, where do you possibly go. I've always thought in this case it would be best to get somewhere cold. Not sure if that would work here though, since this is fungal. 

On another note, one zombie troupe I can't with is the extremely super humanly fast zombies. That's one thing I always appreciated about TWD, zombies moved realistically. These guys were a bit fast for my taste. Seeing some of the upcoming stuff though, it definitely does not look like these are the typical kind of zombies though....it seems more of a mutation occurs. 

I'm guessing Ellie won't be immune but there will be more to it......again I know nothing about the game so I'm not trying to spoil anything, but I wonder if it's more her body somehow being able to stall the effects or even work symbiotically with the fungi. 

The scariest part of this type of scenario is seeing how terribly people handle these things and how bad society gets. I am sure we are going to see some messed up things (we kind of did already....public hangings and all) being done by people in the name of survival. 

 

 

2 hours ago, paigow said:

Like her???

I was thinking more 1970s than 1870s, but hey - whatever floats your boat.  😄

[magdalene]

On 2/8/2023 at 7:03 PM, paramitch said:

I am so disheartened to see anyone reading Ellie and Joel's relationship this way, and am dismayed at the way even the most innocent scenes between a young female character and an older male character may be sexualized. Joel's tentativeness with her seatbelt was not about sexual intimacy, but about his unwillingness to get in her space and help her as he would have once helped his daughter -- it was visibly bringing up too much of his "Dad-self" that he had walled off.

Don't be disheartened - if some people want to see perversions everywhere that's on them. Don't put that on yourself.  Heck, I have seen some Mando/Grogu shipping certain places.  And I just roll my eyes and laugh about it. I certainly am not going to accept that the puppet is giving come hither looks to Mando.

[go4luca]

1 hour ago, magdalene said:

Heck, I have seen some Mando/Grogu shipping certain places.  And I just roll my eyes and laugh about it. I certainly am not going to accept that the puppet is giving come hither looks to Mando.

Wait - WHUT?!  Wow.  I'm seriously gobsmacked.

Anyway - excited for tonight's episode.  Plus slightly terrified.

 

[kay1864]

(Oops wrong ep)

Edited February 12, 2023 by kay1864

[Kel Varnsen]

On 2/6/2023 at 6:37 AM, Haleth said:

I guess Joel was trying to save time by going right through the city rather than around it?  Most larger cities (not sure about KC) have bypasses so you don't have to get stuck in downtown traffic.  He probably should have foreseen that there would be cars blocking the highway inside the city.  So much for the shortcut!

Didn't Joel explain to Ellie how the military had plow like vehicles that they would use to keep roads clear for other vehicles to get through? So in that sense maybe staying on major interstates makes sense because they would be less likely to be blocked by dead cars and other obstructions.

[nomodrama]

On 2/9/2023 at 3:33 AM, paramitch said:

I wanted to mention two other moments that really got me -- the injured raider guy Brian begging for his life and eventually just calling for his mother. Oh, man. I mean, yes, he would have killed them without hesitation, and Joel had to do what he did, but it was still so hard to watch no matter what, and definitely added that little touch of humanity (the actor was terrific). And I appreciated that note of realism in the writing, that Brian was so real (and that it was hard for Joel and Ellie to contemplate killing him even if they knew it had to happen).

Brian is an example of why the first thing you probably need to learn in an apocalyptic society is never to trust anyone. He already tried to fake an injury in order to rob you, then tried to kill you when you resisted, and once he is hurt and dying, he starts crying for his mom, which at that point could just be another act to try and get you to let your guard down. Zero sympathies for Brian. The most real thing about him is that he was willing to do absolutely everything to survive in the end. 

On 2/9/2023 at 12:41 PM, Constantinople said:

She comes off as unhinged and completely ineffective in every way to me

Agree, maybe not yet quite unhinged, but completely clouded by anger and a need for revenge....not at all an effective leader. I mean she has her 2nd in command showing her a very significant threat and urging her to make if a priority and she's all "later" because first she needs to avenger her brother. That opening in the ground totally did not all seem like it was going to become an immediate issue.  I do love Melanie Lynskey, so I'm happy to see her in this show. 

I am here for the zombie stuff.....bring on some crazy mushroom zombies please. 

[Constantinople]

49 minutes ago, nomodrama said:

Agree, maybe not yet quite unhinged, but completely clouded by anger and a need for revenge....not at all an effective leader. I mean she has her 2nd in command showing her a very significant threat and urging her to make if a priority and she's all "later" because first she needs to avenger her brother. That opening in the ground totally did not all seem like it was going to become an immediate issue.  I do love Melanie Lynskey, so I'm happy to see her in this show

Odd. I didn't write

Quote

She comes off as unhinged and completely ineffective in every way to me

CooperTV did.

I merely replied to that quote of CooperTV.

[TaurusRose]

On 2/6/2023 at 5:01 PM, paigow said:

The issue is that Joel can be perceived as an accessory to kidnapping after the fact. Ellie has been a prisoner to varying degrees all her life. First FEDRA, then the Fireflies... who passed her on to Joel & Tess. Since Ellie cannot disclose their true mission [to other people], it is easy to see Joel as human trafficker / pervert / predator.

Wow. I so hate it when people drag real-life concerns, fears, and phobias into television shows. In the world these people live in, I find it difficult to believe that trafficker/predator/pervert applies in any way to these two characters, much less that either of them is thinking along these lines.

[DrSpaceman73]

So they are going to pair up with one or two new people each episode, they survive and the others die.  

 

The fungal zombies rushing out of the ground was pretty awesome though. 

We beat fedra!  We're free!

Yes!  The ruthless indiscrminate killings can stop!!

'Well let's just hold off on that policy change for now'

Edited September 14, 2023 by DrSpaceman73