S01.E10: The Black Queen

[Lady Whistleup]

I like Rhaenyra because in terms of Westerosi morality, she's pretty decent. She's kind to the people she loves, she doesn't torture people just to say she hurt them, and her bonds with her father and children are genuine. 

She'd probably be a shitty ruler because she doesn't really know how to corral power, but as a person I like her.

[The Kings Foot]

6 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I didn't get the crown thing either. Did Errick steal the crown or did he just make a replica? 

Errick took Viserys' golden crown from  his  body.  We last see Alicent placing it on the wrapped body.   

Aegon is wearing the Conqueror's crown   (ie Aegon the First)   which is black  with a ruby in the centre. 

Edited October 24, 2022 by The Kings Foot

[UnoAgain]

19 hours ago, Constantinople said:

One thing I'm not buying is that Corlys would support Rhaenyra after saying she was complicit in his son's death.

But she's also the stepmother to their 2 granddaughters... And Daemon is their father.. So protecting them is siding with Rhaenyra... And all of this is before luke.. Who.. Even if Rhaenys wasn't particularly grandmotherly to.. Corlys did seem to care for.. Apart from "Names not blood"...So this really was the only play.. May as well not be dragged in when the threat comes... Better to help lead.. And u saw how quickly ppl perked up when Lord Corlys walked in

[jeansheridan]

Jaime shoved an adorable 8 year old out of a window and had an epic near redemption (enough that he seemed worthy to knight Ser Brienne). For fans of Aemond, I think there's some wiggle room. The actor has tons of charisma which helps a Fandom. He will be great on the Con circuit.

[absnow54]

27 minutes ago, UnoAgain said:

But she's also the stepmother to their 2 granddaughters... And Daemon is their father.. So protecting them is siding with Rhaenyra... And all of this is before luke.. Who.. Even if Rhaenys wasn't particularly grandmotherly to.. Corlys did seem to care for.. Apart from "Names not blood"...So this really was the only play.. May as well not be dragged in when the threat comes... Better to help lead.. And u saw how quickly ppl perked up when Lord Corlys walked in

Daemon also supported Corlys in the Stepstones when no one else in the Realm would. 

[paigow]

5 minutes ago, absnow54 said:

Daemon also supported Corlys in the Stepstones when no one else in the Realm would. 

They were co-conspirators in a plan [that never fully developed] to remove Viserys years ago....

[FnkyChkn34]

For anyone who hasn't seen it, I recommend that everyone watch The Last Kingdom on Netflix during this long GoT hiatus. Several of the actors overlap, including the actor who plays Aemond.

[jeansheridan]

57 minutes ago, UnoAgain said:

And u saw how quickly ppl perked up when Lord Corlys walked in

Heck, I perked up. He is the closest character to Ser Daavos I have gotten this season. And like Daemon he has battle experience but a cooler head. Rhynaera for all her teenage talk does not seem battle ready . And I don't mean because of her miscarriage. She's not a warrior physically. We haven't seen her maneuver on her dragon.

BTW, Dany riding without a saddle always seemed more respectful towards her dragons. A saddle is a human convenience. 

[MyArchangel]

18 hours ago, bunnyblue said:

I agree. The kids all get along, and Rhaenyra is an affectionate mother. Corlys & Rhaenys seem to have a good marriage and have embraced their granddaughters. Daemon is the only one who doesn't seem to love anyone. His one redeeming quality was his love for Viserys & Rhaenyra, but Viserys is dead and after the events of this episode, I don't know what he feels for Rhaenyra anymore.

I knew it was coming, and I really didn't want to watch it, but I'm grateful that at least it was quick death for Luke and Arrax. They were both so afraid in their last moments though. Actually poor Luke was terrified the moment he entered Storm's End and saw that psycho watching him. I don't care if the show made this into a "whoopsie" moment for Aemond, the fact is he was terrorizing his young nephew from moment he saw him and was acting like the big bad bully with his big vicious dragon. He chased after him - once again the Greens are the aggressors. This was road rage but with dragons, and Grandma Vhagar didn't come to play children's games. He got her riled up and couldn't control her. Now dumbass Aemond will either have to admit he can't control his dragon or lean into the villain role. I expect he'll embrace being a villain. Good job in destroying any chance at avoiding war, asshole.

I think Daemon had a lot going on emotion wise this episode....first he hears about his brother dying...then Rhaenys tells Rhaenyra that "the Greens are coming for you Rhaenyra and they are coming for your children too."...I think  2 episodes back Daemon did realize he cared about Viserys and how much pain he was in and it made him angry how the Hightowers were controlling him. He's hated Otto for the longest time because he sees him for what he truly is, a charlatan and a power hungry scumbag....I do think that Daemon loves Rhaenyra....When he went to see her after their child was born prematurely and she was cradling the baby in her arms the look on his face was sorrow...then when he was down by the water he was grieving the loss of that child (his second child lost)...so I don't think its a question of not loving anyone...he just realizes I think better than most that no matter what terms that Aegon offered, Otto at some point would have poisoned that well and they would be right where they are now so they all better buckle down and realize that even though they might not want war or fire the first shot, the first shot was already fired by the usurpation of the Iron Throne to Aegon over Rhaenyra, Viserys chosen heir....Daemon aIso grabbing Rhaenyra by the neck didn't bother me because I think he was in some ways trying to show her its better to have his hands there than a rope or sword from the Greens and that is why he said they had the power because they had more dragons which they do...I guarantee that Viserys never, ever told Aegon about the "Song of Fire and Ice" either...that is why Rhaenyra is really Viserys chosen heir and why he believed she would rule like he did...Aemond can drop dead for all I care...,.he does not have the bond that Laena had with Vhagar....He was purposely making Vhagar taunt not only Lucerys but also Arrax to a certain degree knowing that it would trigger the smaller dragon into a fear response....He wanted Vhagar to attack Arrax thereby causing Arrax to become erratic and causing Lucerys death but that backfired in a major way....by the way he was flying the dragon so close to Arrax, if he was merely trying to intimidate all he would have had to do was simply continue flying right above Arrax and Lucerys....not making aggressive moves and having Vhagar snap at Arrax and Lucerys....maybe he wasn't trying to start a war but his blatant whining about losing an eye and being pissed off over it, then challenging Lucerys to cut out his eye in the Barathean hall and then going aggressively after Arrax & Lucerys, thus causing Vhagar to finally snap Arrax in half and eat Lucerys, have now done just that....I am hoping its Vermithor that takes him and Vhagar out...hate to see the big girl go but a battle of the Titans (Vermithor v Vhagar) would be epic....I also think this entire situation is going to scare the hell out of Alicent because she will know how Rhaenyra is going to feel losing her son, just like she felt when Aemond lost his eye and she was unhinged over an eye, not a life that was lost....the Greens may have bit off more than they can chew.

[proserpina65]

1 hour ago, MyArchangel said:

.he does not have the bond that Laena had with Vhagar..

Eh I don't think Laena had a better bond with Vhagar.  She just wasn't in the position of tryng to keep Vhagar from doing what the dragon wanted to do.

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

IIRC, Robert didn't show any particular affinity for people, and he didn't really care about the power so much. If he could just have a position where he got to fight, eat and drink and fuck as much as he wanted, he would have turned his back on the people and the crown in a heartbeat.

People's mileage will vary, but I (and possibly the Starks) consider some oaths a two-way street. If I swear an oath to someone based on a false premise that they willfully deceived me about, I don't think I'm obliged to keep that oath. And some actions are so outrageous that an oath goes by the wayside. Aerys II burning Ned's brother and father for basically no reason was an act that got Ned and the North to realize that whatever loyalty and oaths they were supposed to have to the throne was not justification enough to not rebel.

True, I guess for me it seems like they weren't promised much with Rhaenyra. Or maybe it just seems like she's more their type so I imagine them sticking with her. I could be wrong!

4 hours ago, Oscirus said:

The last time they interacted with Aemond he was legit calling them bastards in front of alot of people including their mother the heir.  That was under the threat of getting his tongue removed. I would not think someone like that is rational enough to be around without protection. Especially if I was the person responsible for maiming said psycho

Right, but he wouldn't be meeting him in a dark alley. He was walking into the throne room with Baratheon, just like we saw, and he was safe in there. Sure Aemond did insult and menace him, but, but I doubt that's considered a good reason to not deliver the message.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

23 hours ago, MrsR said:

Rhaenyra you'ld still have four living kids is you were a better patient. That was some serious bullshit.

She does. Jacaerys, Joffrey, Aegon the Younger and Viserys. Before Lucerys died, she had five.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

12 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

Baratheon's scornful comment about "You Targaryens " was telling. They are still invaders and foreigners, 100+ years in.

I don't think that was the sense of it. That would have been a bit hypocritical, since the Baratheons invaded with the Targaryens and became lords of the Stormlands via Aegon's Conquest. (source: GoT DVD extras)

Edited October 25, 2022 by Noneofyourbusiness

[Chicago Redshirt]

7 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

And he was still far better king than Viserys, if you ask me. Because Viserys was that bad. The civil war is mostly his fault. I mean, Otto predicted exactly what would happen almost two decades ago. Viserys did nothing to prevent it. He could have done a gazillion things to strengthen Rhaenyra's position but didn't. The phrase "after me, the deluge" comes to mind.

Robert (well, more like Jon Arryn but still) managed to hold together the realm without the help of dragons. Being deep in dept was quite normal for medieval kings and since Westeros has no external enemies, what does a king need so much money anyway? 🙂

I don't know if the fact that Viserys was blind to the possibility that Otto would try to ignore his express wishes for Rhae to remain his heir or that the realm was so sexist that there would be momentum behind such a move overshadows everything else that happened under his watch. 30ish years of peace and prosperity>15ish years of not so much prosperity and mostly peace. 

I think if Viserys gets dinged for not taking stronger measures to ensure Rhae's succession was not problematic, then Robert deserves blame for not doing enough to stop Joffrey from being the sadistic bastard he was, not figuring out that Cersei was cheating on him with her brother resulting in the three kids, not anticipating that his brothers might make their own plays for the throne, not realizing that bringing Ned in from the North to be his hand was a bad call, etc etc. 

7 hours ago, jane1978 said:

Not sure how Daemon knew about the tragedy so quick. Luc was still young and he was trying to flight back during a heavy storm. Even passenger flights can get lost during storms. It would make more sense if they just waited and waited for his return, asked the Baratheons if he arrived, and eventually declared him lost at the see. 

Only the people at Baratheon court know about the fight between Luc and Aemond and that Aemond took off soon after Luc. But even if they admitted it all to Rhae (which they have no reason too) Aemond could easily lie he just flew away to calm down and clear his head and he had never followed Luc into the storm.

There are no witnesses of what happened in the skies.

We don't know how much time passed between Luc's death and word getting to Dragonstone. 

It's safe to assume that there was enough time for Team Black to know that something was amiss generally. We don't know if there was something concrete to confirm what happened, such as Arraxas's chewed up body washing up somewhere.

Even if there was a reasonable possibility that Luke just was the victim of a random accident/bad weather, it's not like Team Black would need to believe that was what actually happened. They could and likely would jump to the conclusion that there was foul play, just like they did when it came to Viserys's death, even though there was every reason to think it was of natural causes since he'd been at death's door for a decade or more.

The Baratheons would be caught between the Greens and the Blacks here. If they lie and say nothing happened that they are aware of or that Luke never made it to Storm's End, they risk the Greens telling the truth or just straight up being disbelieved. If they tell the truth and the Greens opt to lie, then they make an enemy of the Greens.

[snickers]

On 10/24/2022 at 5:29 PM, jane1978 said:

Well, this atleast explain why whenever we saw Luc they always portrayed him as the cutest, most innocent thing ever. Say what you want about Alicent´s kids but atleast they have some personality. 

I wouldn’t call him innocent- he was young, “10 and 4” and could be brave when he needed to be - he did “take out an eye” 

I think this death hurt because 1. He’s a sweet kid and 2. What a way to die 

But this wouldn’t be GOT without the deaths that hurt 

In some ways Luke reminded me of Tommen (minus the raised by Cersei part 😅)

I liked Luke way more than Jace-not saying Jace has the crazy Targ genes, but he seems like a hot head 

alicent’s kids for sure have the Targ craziness- the only interesting one to me is Aemond, Aegon is Joffrey 2.0 in the making and the daughter is just….there 

as for little Arrax, I’m trying to figure out why he was so small, they keep talking about how none of the dragons are adult size yet Daenerys dragons were huge by season 6, arrax in theory should be what 13? 
 

Is it because they are in that dragon pit? 

Edited October 26, 2022 by snickers

[millennium]

Great episode, very atmospheric.   Pity it took nine previous episodes to get to the point where I would actually like to see more.  And now there's a year or so to wait.  🤨

I wish they would stop referencing the "darkness in the North," because after the events of Season 8, it now invokes all the terror and menace of the Y2K bug.   The night is dark and full of whatever.

[Roseanna]

16 minutes ago, snickers said:

But this wouldn’t be GOT without the deaths that hurt

My problem in this series is that deaths does *not* hurt. At all.

[Affogato]

10 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

BTW, Dany riding without a saddle always seemed more respectful towards her dragons. A saddle is a human convenience. 

Rhaenys reaches down in the dragonpit, as she takes iff,  as if she is adjusting something. Like changing gears. I think the saddles have reasons. Dany wouldn’t know brcause there was no one to train here. 

Edited October 25, 2022 by Affogato

[Affogato]

4 hours ago, snickers said:

as for little Arrax, I’m trying to figure out why he was so small, they keep talking about how none of the dragons are adult size yet Daenerys dragons were huge by season 6, arrax in theory should be what 13? 
 

Is it because they are in that dragon pit? Or were …. 

The dragons are getting smaller. Vhaegar is huge as was the B(alerion?). Dany’s were fueled by magic. 

Edited October 25, 2022 by Affogato

[Roseanna]

4 hours ago, snickers said:

I wouldn’t call him innocent- he was young, “10 and 4” and could be brave when he needed to be - he did “take out an eye”

Taking out another's eye was hardly brave. Although Luke acted out of desperation, it was still cruel. Nowadays such a child would have taken into custody.

[Cristofle]

10 minutes ago, Affogato said:

The dragons are getting smaller. Vhaegar is huge as was the B(alerion?). Dany’s were fueled by magic. 

Yep. As Dany said in the OG show, the dragonpit was the beginning of the end, because the dragons kept getting smaller. Syrax is smaller than Caraxes, Arrax is smaller than Syrax. 

[proserpina65]

6 hours ago, Roseanna said:

My problem in this series is that deaths does *not* hurt. At all.

I was saddened by Viserys' death, even though I knew it was coming.  And by Aemma's, Laena's and those of Lyonel & Harwin Strong.  Not devastated like I was by some in GOT but a little sad.  Luke's death, on the other hand, didn't touch me at all for reasons which are obvious if you've seen my previous posts.

Honestly, I was just here for the dragons, and the show finally delivered on those.  Plus, Aemond was an unexpected bonus.

[Enigma X]

I am enjoying the show but if most of the characters (not even the children) stopped doing stupid things, many conflicts would be resolved before they start. (I know then there would be no show, but that is not a good reason for flawed writing/plot motivation.)

I don't understand why Viserys took Otto back as hand after Strong was murdered. Surely, there was someone else at least equal in crappiness he could have tried out. If the books explained it better than the show, kudos. But the show did not show why he re-installed Otto as his hand.

[proserpina65]

8 minutes ago, Enigma X said:

I don't understand why Viserys took Otto back as hand after Strong was murdered. Surely, there was someone else at least equal in crappiness he could have tried out. If the books explained it better than the show, kudos. But the show did not show why he re-installed Otto as his hand.

I assumed Alicent was really pushing for that, but yeah, the show didn't explain it.

[absnow54]

10 minutes ago, Enigma X said:

I don't understand why Viserys took Otto back as hand after Strong was murdered. Surely, there was someone else at least equal in crappiness he could have tried out. If the books explained it better than the show, kudos. But the show did not show why he re-installed Otto as his hand.

Viserys was already somewhat senile by the time Otto was reinstalled as hand, so I'm wondering if they just kind of snuck him back into the council as if he'd always been there.

[jeansheridan]

7 minutes ago, absnow54 said:

Viserys was already somewhat senile by the time Otto was reinstalled as hand, so I'm wondering if they just kind of snuck him back into the council as if he'd always been there.

Viserys was ill and drug addled but he was never senile. His Long Walk to the throne and speech at dinner indicate a man who had his wits. Paddy was so magnificent.  He probably won't win awards but his arc moved me. He went from a hopeful, relatively young man (a summer Lord) to a pain riddled near corpse who knew he had failed but hoped he hadn't. It's a full on tragedy. 

[Jack Shaftoe]

36 minutes ago, Enigma X said:

I am enjoying the show but if most of the characters (not even the children) stopped doing stupid things, many conflicts would be resolved before they start. (I know then there would be no show, but that is not a good reason for flawed writing/plot motivation.)

I don't mind characters doing stupid things because that's only human but so much of the stupidity in the show seems to be very convenient for the plots. Like Rhaenyra not bothering to gather any allies before Viseris died, so she would need to send her sons to basically beg for support. It's all dramatic and grand but it hinges on Rhaenyra being implausibly clueless for a really long time. Same with Otto being back as the Hand and the other faction meekly accepting that. Or Corlys and Rhaenys thinking Daemon and Rhaenyra murdered their son but still supporting Rhaenyra's bid for the throne.

I am not among the biggest fans of GoT by any means but it did have a certain "characters actually pay for their mistakes" aura about it. Here, most characters bumble their way through life, make really stupid mistakes that could easily cost them their lives or at least reputation but escape unscathed. Again and again. Alicent stabs Rhaenyra and nothing happens. Not even a slap on the wrist. Nobody even seems to remember this particular incident and Rhaenyra still seems to have some residual fondness for her.

[proserpina65]

11 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

It's all dramatic and grand but it hinges on Rhaenyra being implausibly clueless for a really long time.

I didn't see her as implausibly clueless.  I saw her as extremely entitled.  As in "I don't need to shore up my support because all those lords swore an oath and of course they or their sons will honor that".  It's a function of Viserys not making the effort to prepare her to rule and her not bothering either.

[Jack Shaftoe]

24 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

I didn't see her as implausibly clueless.  I saw her as extremely entitled.  As in "I don't need to shore up my support because all those lords swore an oath and of course they or their sons will honor that".

Мany lords should have been falling over themselves to join Rhaenyra's faction without her needing to do anything but say "Sure, if that's what you want". Are we supposed to think she refused them for some mysterious reason rather than merely never bothering to look for support? Or that Otto was the only one who put two and two together and realized Rhaenyra wouldn't succeed to the throne without upheavals?

And I never got the impression that we were supposed to see Rhaenyra and Viserys as that clueless or entitled. When Rhaenyra said "my father helped to prepare me for my duties", this sure looked like something we were supposed to accept as truth rather than irony. Especially with the way the writers have praised Rhaenyra's restraint in the finale in their latest interviews. It would certainly make for a better story if Rhaenyra is a person with many flaws who makes costly mistakes due to entitlement or lack of experience rather than a slightly flawed long suffering victim of circumstances but I don't think this is the story the show is trying to portray.

[proserpina65]

2 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Мany lords should have been falling over themselves to join Rhaenyra's faction without her needing to do anything but say "Sure, if that's what you want".

Why should they?  Westeros is dominated by a misogynistic ruling class and many of those lords would've been looking for any excuse to not put Rhaenyra on the throne strictly because she's a woman.  Rhaenys told her exactly that in, what, episode 2?  She absolutely would've had to beg and bargain for support from a large portion of Westeros' great houses.

I'm going on the basis of what the show presented and we saw no sign at all of Rhaenyra reaching out to any of the houses other than Velaryon for support.  Not did we see any actual attempts by her father to prepare her to rule or by her to gain such education.  So yes, my take is that she felt entitled to the support because of oaths sworn more than a decade before and didn't bother to make sure that support was still there.

[paigow]

Daemon has rich friends in Essos... maybe they will pay the 7 Sons For 7 Daughters to crash the party...

[Nicmar]

On 10/24/2022 at 10:02 AM, proserpina65 said:

Walder Frey's girls

I thought he had at least one decent looking daughter?

[proserpina65]

4 minutes ago, Nicmar said:

I thought he had at least one decent looking daughter?

Yep, the one he married off to Edmure at the Red Wedding.  But he kept her hidden until then, so everyone thought they were all ugly.

The Baratheon daughters there in the hall all looked decent.

[Nicmar]

3 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

Honestly, I was just here for the dragons, and the show finally delivered on those.  Plus, Aemond was an unexpected bonus.

That me as well and it would be great if they throw in a Dire wolf :)

[Oscirus]

34 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Why should they?  Westeros is dominated by a misogynistic ruling class and many of those lords would've been looking for any excuse to not put Rhaenyra on the throne strictly because she's a woman.  Rhaenys told her exactly that in, what, episode 2?  She absolutely would've had to beg and bargain for support from a large portion of Westeros' great houses.

I'm going on the basis of what the show presented and we saw no sign at all of Rhaenyra reaching out to any of the houses other than Velaryon for support.  Not did we see any actual attempts by her father to prepare her to rule or by her to gain such education.  So yes, my take is that she felt entitled to the support because of oaths sworn more than a decade before and didn't bother to make sure that support was still there.

I could see rhaenyra being naive enough to think that they were going to honor their word just because they swore an oath since Viserys didnt even bother to train her at all.  Im more bothered by her knowing that the hightowers were running shit in kings landing and not even bothering to challenge any of that.  

[LanceM]

For the record Viseys did make Rhaenyra a member of the small council a seat she held for at least 10 years so it’s not like he did nothing to set her up to rule. but yes she should have reached out more to gather allies but then again Otto had been planning his coup for 20 years and he too had to reach out to see where others in the realm stood. This makes me think it was a narrative decision the showrunners made in order to add drama and keep viewers in suspense as to who will be backing who in the upcoming war.

Edited October 25, 2022 by LanceM

[Jack Shaftoe]

15 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Why should they?  Westeros is dominated by a misogynistic ruling class and many of those lords would've been looking for any excuse to not put Rhaenyra on the throne strictly because she's a woman. 

Because oaths are a serious business in Westeros and Viserys was (somehow) а well respected king who made his wishes in regards to his heir very clear. Because Rhaenyra has more dragons than the opposition and Daemon has a reputation of a good military leader.

For ten years Rhaenyra had the support of the Velaryons too, there was ample time for gazillion opportunists to want to join her faction when it seemed ascendant, yet we didn't see a single one. And lords who join her faction can demand rewards in return for support, of course. Misogynists or not, who rules in King's Landing makes little practical difference in the daily life of most of the Westeros nobles but land grants or cash from a grateful Queen can change their life big time. The nobles don't practice incest either but nevertheless support Targaryens who do. Misogyny is the reason the civil war is happening, obviously, but hardly an insurmountable obstacles for nobles who prefer being on the winning side and/or are greedy for rewards.

Also, a significant portion of this undoubtedly misogynistic ruling class supported Cersei as a Queen just fine despite her not having any claim for the throne whatsoever and facing three dragons while having none of her own. Mind you, this made no sense, if you ask me but still it's sort of a precedent since Westeros didn't seem any less misogynist in Cersei's time.

[proserpina65]

9 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Because oaths are a serious business in Westeros and Viserys was (somehow) а well respected king who made his wishes in regards to his heir very clear. Because Rhaenyra has more dragons than the opposition and Daemon has a reputation of a good military leader.

They might be a serious business but there was no way a number of lords were going to accept Rhaenyra as queen despite their oaths.  We'd already seen that Otto Hightower wasn't the only lord who encouraged Viserys to change his heir.  Rhaenyra was really naive to not shore up her support among those likely to waver.  She got outmaneuvered by Otto, and that's on her for assuming powerful men would want a woman on the throne.  As I said, Rhaenys warned her that wouldn't be the case.

14 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Also, a significant portion of this undoubtedly misogynistic ruling class supported Cersei as a Queen just fine despite her not having any claim for the throne whatsoever and facing three dragons while having none of her own.

After she'd already blown up the Sept of Baelor and many of those likely to oppose her.  Those left knew where their bread was buttered.

16 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

but hardly an insurmountable obstacles for nobles who prefer being on the winning side and/or are greedy for rewards.

If she'd spent some time promising those rewards beforehand, she wouldn't have been put in the position of scrambling for support after her father died.  She basically ignored politics in King's Landing to her detriment.

44 minutes ago, LanceM said:

For the record Viseys did make Rhaenyra a member of the small council a seat she held for at least 10 years so it’s not like he did nothing to set her up to rule. but yes she should have reached out more to gather allies but then again Otto had been planning his coup for 20 years and he too had to reach out to see where others in the realm stood. This makes me think it was a narrative decision the showrunners made in order to add drama and keep viewers in suspense as to who will be backing who in the upcoming war.

Otto had been doing the work he needed to gather his support.  We never see Rhaenyra bother at all.

[Oscirus]

6 hours ago, Cristofle said:

Yep. As Dany said in the OG show, the dragonpit was the beginning of the end, because the dragons kept getting smaller. Syrax is smaller than Caraxes, Arrax is smaller than Syrax. 

But didnt arrax spend at least 6 years on dragonstone which seemingly has no dragonpits?

[LanceM]

19 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Otto had been doing the work he needed to gather his support.  We never see Rhaenyra bother at all.

What support? The only people we saw him getting support from are the members of the small council and the only person on that council worth a damn is Tyland Lannister. Other than them, who else? Those very minor lords who he forced to bend the knee in the he Red Keep? They are about ad important as the minor lords that Rhaenyra had on Dragonstone.

Edited October 25, 2022 by LanceM

[Affogato]

1 minute ago, Oscirus said:

But didnt arrax spend at least 6 years on dragonstone which seemingly has no dragonpits?

One might guess it was actually distance from the volcanoes of the old kingdom, maybe heat or chemicals not right for thriving dragon populations. Maybe their success is tied to the valerians themselves. 

[Roseanna]

19 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

They might be a serious business but there was no way a number of lords were going to accept Rhaenyra as queen despite their oaths.  We'd already seen that Otto Hightower wasn't the only lord who encouraged Viserys to change his heir.  Rhaenyra was really naive to not shore up her support among those likely to waver.  She got outmaneuvered by Otto, and that's on her for assuming powerful men would want a woman on the throne.

If Rhaenyra had offered those lords more benefits than Otto or at least *showed* that she is able to rule, they would backed her. But she did neither.

Also, she could have outmanoved Otto, but didn't.

[Roseanna]

Aemond losing his eye - is there any symbolism in it?

Odin pulled one of his eyes and earned knowledge. Instead, in Byzantium the rival claimants to the throne were blinded, thus making them impossible to rule.

[proserpina65]

33 minutes ago, LanceM said:

The only people we saw him getting support from are the members of the small council and the only person on that council worth a damn is Tyland Lannister. Other than them, who else? Those very minor lords who he forced to bend the knee in the he Red Keep? They are about ad important as the minor lords that Rhaenyra had on Dragonstone.

Adding up the other lords on the small council and the ones Otto had gathered in the hall, it was a much larger number than Rhaenyra had at Dragonstone.

I think I'll leave my part of the discussion there, since the politics actually don't interest me much.  Looking forward to more dragon fighting next season, though.

Edited October 25, 2022 by proserpina65

[Cristofle]

45 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

But didnt arrax spend at least 6 years on dragonstone which seemingly has no dragonpits?

I think the idea is that they were basically being bred and born smaller. I mean, who knows exactly, they're dragons, lol, but that was the gist of it, that it didn't really matter where they went once hatched - they were just getting smaller, based on the general treatment of them and attempt to contain and control them. There are a lot of fan theories - maybe the maesters were doing something to them, maybe the dragons require a certain kind of special blood to get bigger, etc. But they were definitely getting smaller and smaller. Arrax was very small compared to Syrax when Rhaenyra was Luke's age.

[paigow]

23 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

On a strictly shallow note: had I been the daughters of House Baratheon faced with the possible choice between a cute in an tousle-haired adolescent kind of way boy and a hot, swaggering, eye-patched man, I know which house I would've wanted my father to ally with.

The guy with BDE... Big Dragon Energy

Edited October 25, 2022 by paigow

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, LanceM said:

What support? The only people we saw him getting support from are the members of the small council and the only person on that council worth a damn is Tyland Lannister. Other than them, who else? Those very minor lords who he forced to bend the knee in the he Red Keep? They are about ad important as the minor lords that Rhaenyra had on Dragonstone.

Yeah, hard to tell. Seems like most of his maneuvering was about how to grab power when the time came, more than openly getting support from wars, traveling around and making alliances. 

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

Aemond losing his eye - is there any symbolism in it?

Odin pulled one of his eyes and earned knowledge. Instead, in Byzantium the rival claimants to the throne were blinded, thus making them impossible to rule.

I admit, I wondered after the ep if part of it wasn't that it took away his depth perception, making it hard for him to see how close Luke and his dragon were! He is sometimes a bit short-sighted in his decisions.

But thinking about it seriously, it may just be about him having an obvious physical deformity that defines him and so keeps him angry about it even more.

[Avabelle]

The Greens usurped the throne which led to Rhaenyra giving birth early to a stillborn daughter. A mere 12 hours later Aemond harassing her 14 year old son leads to his death. 

Why do I have a horrible feeling that Rhaenyra rightfully wanting to take back the throne and wanting a little revenge will be used as a defence for the ever weakly written Hightower clan next season. As though she’s being unreasonable. 

There is just no joy to this show. It’s so miserable. It’s just Rhaenyra repeatedly getting shat on, Otto Hightower looking smugly at everyone and Alicents smacked arse face of “oh but while I wanted to usurp the throne, make sure Rhaenyras legitimacy and heirs were ruined I didn’t want anyone to get hurt while I didn’t because I take no accountability for anything I do”.

I’m just deeply annoyed at everything. 

[paigow]

3 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Odin pulled one of his eyes and earned knowledge. 

This guy cut his own eye out as a sign of respect...

[Nicmar]

3 hours ago, Oscirus said:

But didnt arrax spend at least 6 years on dragonstone which seemingly has no dragonpits?

I thought they did, where was Vemithior housed at?