S01.E10: The Black Queen

[Oscirus]

5 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

Aemond can want whatever he wants. Acting on it in the manner he did means he might actually be dumber and less fit for the throne than his serial rapist brother. He put personal vengeance over the entire realm, and he was also apparently too stupid to realize he does not have full control over Vhagar. 

Literally nobody on this show is fit to rule. All you're arguing is degrees which at this point, eh. 

[Cristofle]

I think the Starks are far more likely than not to side with the Blacks. They take their oaths more seriously than any other great house, and they swore fealty to Rhaenyra. Who knows about the Tullys in this realm, though. 

I honestly hope we're done with the last shredded remnants of Alicent and Rhaenyra's lost bond or whatever. I get it, they were not only BFFs but may have even had feelings for each other. But that bond has been utterly destroyed. As fantastic as Emma was throughout this episode, I still found myself rolling my eyes during the book page scene despite their wonderful performance in it. Just...let it go. And perhaps Luke's death will be the end of it - I hope so. The more crimes two factions commit against each other, the less impressive their childhood bond is. 

Edited October 24, 2022 by Cristofle

[Oscirus]

7 minutes ago, absnow54 said:

It's very important in this instance though. Rhaenyra and Allicent are both trying to skate carefully through this conflict using diplomacy. Rhaenyra refused to follow the council of Daemon "War Crimes at the Stepstones" Targaryen, and Allicent would not allow Aegon or her father to assassinate Rhaenyra and her sons. Aemond killing Luke has taken diplomacy off the table, and opened the door to playing dirty.

Aemond just needed to wait out Daemon's inevitable war crimes, before taking out his need for revenge. 

Fair enough.

[magdalene]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Who is Vermithar? The fact that you know its name means this must be book material because I had no idea what was going on in that scene. It pre-supposed knowledge of the book IMO. I know that Daemon spoke of unclaimed/wild dragons but that whole scene of him s

They said the dragon's name in the subtitles.

[Meredith Quill]

32 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Rhaenyra (to Luke): Storm's End is a short flight from here. You have Baratheon blood from your grandmother, Rhaenys. And... Lord Borros is an eternally proud man. He will be honored to host a prince of the realm... and his dragon. I expect you will receive a very warm welcome.

Sad to think that of Rhaenyra's last words to her son was a lie.

A lie? Strange way to characterise it. A lie implies she knew it to be untrue. She didn't, it was a miscalculation.

23 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Literally nobody on this show is fit to rule. All you're arguing is degrees which at this point, eh. 

Arguing degrees seems to be the entire point of this story.

[AntFTW]

1 hour ago, proserpina65 said:

Aegon surely set up the pig joke, but Jace and Luke were in on it and enjoyed the hell out of mocking Aemond.  The fight at Driftmark wasn't started by Aemond although he certainly did nothing to deescalate it in any way.  Jace and Aemond were fighting but it was Luke who slashed Aemond with the knife to stop him from going after Jace with the rock.

De-escalation has never been Aemond's strong suit. Aemond escalates everything! He just can't help himself. That's why I believe it's his own fault that he lost an eye.

Aemond may not have started the fight on Driftmark but he escalated it when it was unnecessary. He escalated it at the moment where he had already gained the upper hand, to the point where he lost an eye.

Aemond escalated the family infighting when his disingenuous toast at Vicerys' last dinner.

Aemond taunts Luke in Storm's End, but that wasn't enough. He escalated it to the point where Luke and Luke's dragon dies.

[paigow]

3 hours ago, Constantinople said:

As a viewer, I can't get worked up about kinslaying after Game of Thrones.

Some kinslayers had bad ends, but not necessarily related to kinslaying (Ramsay, Euron). Some kinslayers turned out fine.

Tyrion killed his father and ended up Hand of the King.

Jon killed his aunt and ended up going camping, which is pretty much what he would have wanted to do anyone.

Robb executed that Karstark guy... Karma collected that debt...

[aghst]

That's one thing Otto wanted to slaughter the blacks, not offer terms at all.

I guess Raynys breaking out ended that element of surprise.

[proserpina65]

On a strictly shallow note: had I been the daughters of House Baratheon faced with the possible choice between a cute in an tousle-haired adolescent kind of way boy and a hot, swaggering, eye-patched man, I know which house I would've wanted my father to ally with.  And that's before seeing the sapphire.

On another shallow note: Vhagar and Vermithor are both ugly as hell, even for old dragons.  Of course she's nearly 200 years old (if I'm calculating the time since Aegon's conquest correctly), so I guess that may be why.

7 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

De-escalation has never been Aemond's strong suit. Aemond escalates everything! He just can't help himself.

THAT I can fully agree with.  Shit-stirring seems to be his raison d'etre.

[Cristofle]

23 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Literally nobody on this show is fit to rule. All you're arguing is degrees which at this point, eh. 

Well, it is degrees, and Aemond is now significantly worse off in terms of degrees. No one would be an amazing ruler, but Rhaenyra spent most of the episode tamping down her shock and her grief and her rage to try and hold the realm together while Aemond, as it was mentioned above, could not restrain himself long enough to just wait for anything but this absolutely terrible opportunity. Despite the fact that he was written in the previous episode to be studious and observant and more "together" than Aegon. He feels he's more worthy of the throne than Aegon. But his carelessness and inability to see that this was not the time to settle an old score with Luke highlights that he's arguably more catastrophically careless than his brother is. 

I don't think Rhaenyra would necessarily be a good ruler, to be clear. She's spent too many episodes seeming unable to prepare herself to rule. Even her response to Viserys' death showed how ill-prepared she was - it's devastating to lose your last parent, particularly given that she and Viserys genuinely loved each other, but he was clearly extremely close to death the last time she saw him and the Greens have been preparing to steal the throne from under her for years - this shouldn't have been THAT much of a shock. Daemon was pissed off and irrational about Viserys' death, but clearly had thought through what he would do if the Greens pulled a stunt like this. That Rhaenyra apparently did not is...yikes. But again, it's degrees. This will likely change with the death of her son, but she's currently looking several degrees less awful than either of her half-brothers. Right now, the options for the Greens in terms of who sits the throne are several degrees worse than the options for the Blacks, in terms of who wouldn't gut the realm for their own satisfaction.

[sistermagpie]

13 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I don't think we have seen any sign that the Greens generally go back on their word, and further, they don't have any incentive to here. "Surrender your claim and you get to keep what you already have" does not cost the Greens anything to maintain.

Isn't their whole plot a big going back on their word, though? Didn't their swear to follow Viserys' choice originally?

5 hours ago, AntFTW said:

I don’t disagree. My point really was that he lost his eye because, although he didn’t start that fight on Driftmark all on his own, I felt that he escalated it to the point of losing his eye. There was no attempt to de-escalate it, not that I expect that much from children. However, once Jace was on the ground and no dagger in his hand, that was an off-ramp for Aemond drop the rock, and walk away but he didn’t… instead he kept approaching a completely vulnerable Jace raising this rock up. Again, not that I have such a high expectation of kids de-escalating situations.

37 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

De-escalation has never been Aemond's strong suit. Aemond escalates everything! He just can't help himself. That's why I believe it's his own fault that he lost an eye.

Aemond may not have started the fight on Driftmark but he escalated it when it was unnecessary. He escalated it at the moment where he had already gained the upper hand, to the point where he lost an eye.

Aemond escalated the family infighting when his disingenuous toast at Vicerys' last dinner.

Aemond taunts Luke in Storm's End, but that wasn't enough. He escalated it to the point where Luke and Luke's dragon dies.

Yes, exactly. Aemond can't take a win. Both times he escalated conflicts, they were conflicts where he had already won. (Okay, starting the fight at dinner was just about still not being over the pig joke.) 

He'd just won himself the dragon he'd wanted for so long--the best dragon--and then he can't help but lord it over the kid who doesn't have one and taunt his nephews about being bastards. Five minutes ago he was euphoric, and his instinct is to just keep reveling in the power. And then here too, he won. He got their first on his bigger dragon, got the alliance, got to watch Luke look small and awkward and unable to even offer himself in marriage. Then suddenly he needs Luke's eye as well and can't be satisfied with Luke scuttling out in fear. 

So for the second time, he takes what should have been his badass moment and snatches disaster from the jaws of victory.

Edited October 24, 2022 by sistermagpie
Luke =/= look

[MrWhyt]

16 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

A lie? Strange way to characterise it. A lie implies she knew it to be untrue.

she knew that they weren't Rhaenys's grandchildren and thus had no Baratheon blood.

[Chicago Redshirt]

12 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Her and her kids are a threat as long as they're alive. If Aegon turned out to be a shitty leader, which lets be real. There could easily be supporters pushing for Rhae and if not for rhae, for the newly legitmitized Jace. 

No matter how shitty a leader Aegon might be, the line of succession would no longer go through Rhae if she renounced it. It would go to Aemond, then Daemon first. The fact of her being a woman makes her unfit to rule in the minds of many. The notion that there would be a meaningful uprising for Rhae/Jace or her actual trueborn children seems a very big longshot.

11 hours ago, Oscirus said:

yea theyre trying to make the blacks the underdogs, theyve failed.  Blacks got control of the sea and have every major dragon not named vhagar and if they get the honor driven starks, thats the north, which would be game over.

Brute dragon force and the sea are not the only angles on which this battle is likely to be waged.

I suspect that the Sea Snake's blockade and/or personal health are not going to be as long-lived as he might think.

I think that Otto is far more cunning than anyone on Team Black, and he has been thinking about this situation for 20 years. Whereas Team Black seems like it has just been thinking about this for a couple weeks.

As for the Starks, if they come to learn that Rhae has little to no honor (having corrupted Ser Criston, and given birth to three bastards she has been trying to pass off as legitimate, conspired to have Laenor "killed" so they can marry). I think the Starks could very well rationalize that they owe no loyalty to someone they perceive as dishonorable.

9 hours ago, Roseanna said:

It was only in the this episode that Rhaenyra showed *any* quality fit for the ruler, namely putting the realm's good before her personal desires which so far has been most important to her as well as not acting on impulse like Daemon was going to do.

However, it remains to be seen if she has qualities to win the power game where her main opponent is Otto.

I don't care which side will win because I can't see any of "characters" as humans or interesting but just pieces on the chess bord and therefore this show is boring. 

Agreed, but Rhae doesn't need to be a particularly good ruler to be better than drunken, self-loathing wastrel rapist who organizes kiddie cage matches for sport, possibly including his own kids.

4 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

Well, except we have Larys who assassinates people if Alicent indicates it needs doing. And Larys strongly suggested to Otto he could help him out too. Otto specifically is not to be trusted. He's good at looking respectable on the surface. Seduce a grieving king but make it official. Aegon crowned in the proper way with all the symbols of power. Play nice at a very uncomfortable family dinner. Etc. Rhynaers is lucky he didn't just smother her in the night. 

Larys's various doings don't have anything to do with whether the Greens have generally gone back on their word. I can't think of a specific example of when Otto or Alicent have made a promise and then broken it. 

I think the way they have portrayed Ali is that she is devout enough that she would not generally break promises, and that she does not have much in the way of skill or interest in trying to pull off deceptions. it would be consistent with Otto's character as shown in the show that he might not have any problems breaking a promise if it got him what he ultimately wanted.

But then we get to why/whether it would be worth it to him to break the terms. I don't think it would be, since the terms are incredibly low-maintenance, and since breaking them actually would cause a host of problems and garner almost no benefit.

2 hours ago, Helena Dax said:

I think it was stupid to send Luke. Rhaenys' was a better choice, given how much the Baratheons seemed to like her. 

Going to Storm's End should have been a milk run. It's close by, and should have involved dropping off a message, having a meal, getting a response and flying back. The diplomacy should have been straightforward.

The Blacks had no particular reason to anticipate that Aemond would personally have been there right at that moment with Vhaegar, let alone that he would be seeking to antagonize Luke.

Nys also had her own tasks, which no one else could be expected to perform.

[proserpina65]

9 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

Well, it is degrees, and Aemond is now significantly worse off in terms of degrees. No one would be an amazing ruler, but Rhaenyra spent most of the episode tamping down her shock and her grief and her rage to try and hold the realm together while Aemond, as it was mentioned above, could not restrain himself long enough to just wait for anything but this absolutely terrible opportunity. Despite the fact that he was written in the previous episode to be studious and observant and more "together" than Aegon. He feels he's more worthy of the throne than Aegon. But his carelessness and inability to see that this was not the time to settle an old score with Luke highlights that he's arguably more catastrophically careless than his brother is. 

I don't think Rhaenyra would necessarily be a good ruler, to be clear. She's spent too many episodes seeming unable to prepare herself to rule. Even her response to Viserys' death showed how ill-prepared she was - it's devastating to lose your last parent, particularly given that she and Viserys genuinely loved each other, but he was clearly extremely close to death the last time she saw him and the Greens have been preparing to steal the throne from under her for years - this shouldn't have been THAT much of a shock. Daemon was pissed off and irrational about Viserys' death, but clearly had thought through what he would do if the Greens pulled a stunt like this. That Rhaenyra apparently did not is...yikes. But again, it's degrees. This will likely change with the death of her son, but she's currently looking several degrees less awful than either of her half-brothers. Right now, the options for the Greens in terms of who sits the throne are several degrees worse than the options for the Blacks, in terms of who wouldn't gut the realm for their own satisfaction.

Prior to this episode, I definitely was in the "Aemond would be a better king than Aegon" camp, and would probably have argued that he might have been a better ruler than Rhaenyra.  But now it's clear that he simply couldn't set aside his need for revenge for the good of his own family, never mind the good of the realm.  Before his tenuous grasp on impulse control only resulted in some yelling, pushing and shoving, but now it has catastrophic consequences.  So yeah, he definitely should never be allowed near the throne.  At this point, it's looking like Rhaenyra is the best of some really bad options.

[Meredith Quill]

10 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

she knew that they weren't Rhaenys's grandchildren and thus had no Baratheon blood.

My bad, I missed that a portion of the post I was replying to was bolded. I thought it referred to how it should have been an easy assignment.

[Sakura12]

That's essentially what happend to Dany they took away all the people she loved and cared about. Some Targs are better at hiding their fire until you go too far and then they can become as uncontrollable as a dragon. Rhaenyra's look from sadness to fury was great. 

With the choking scene, Rhaenyra didn't look to shocked maybe they like it rough? She then seemed to be smiling that her father never shared the dream with him. Meaning Daemon was never a legitimate heir. Or they are both just crazy Targs. 

[tennisgurl]

12 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

At this point, it's looking like Rhaenyra is the best of some really bad options.

None of our options are great, but Rhaenyra does seem like our best bet at this point, even if she certainly has her flaws as a potential ruler. At this point, for all of his tragic mistakes, Viserys is still probably the best ruler we have seen sitting on the Iron Throne in this show or in GoT. 

I find it a bit eye roll inducing so far that they seem to be trying to frame the upcoming war as men behind the scenes manipulating the woman who are the faces of the conflict. I guess they want us to feel more sympathetic towards Alicent and Rhaenyra and their lost friendship, which I do find to be tragic and interesting, but I also hope we don't end up trying to set them up as manipulated pawns of men like Otto and Daemon. I want them to have agency in the story even if that means they aren't as sympathetic. 

I think the real lesson here is that you shouldn't forget that your pets aren't just toys for you to play with, they're living beings with wills of their own. Especially when they're giant flying flame throwing dragons. 

Edited October 24, 2022 by tennisgurl

[Oscirus]

15 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

Well, it is degrees, and Aemond is now significantly worse off in terms of degrees. No one would be an amazing ruler, but Rhaenyra spent most of the episode tamping down her shock and her grief and her rage to try and hold the realm together while Aemond, as it was mentioned above, could not restrain himself long enough to just wait for anything but this absolutely terrible opportunity. Despite the fact that he was written in the previous episode to be studious and observant and more "together" than Aegon. He feels he's more worthy of the throne than Aegon. But his carelessness and inability to see that this was not the time to settle an old score with Luke highlights that he's arguably more catastrophically careless than his brother is. 

I don't think Rhaenyra would necessarily be a good ruler, to be clear. She's spent too many episodes seeming unable to prepare herself to rule. Even her response to Viserys' death showed how ill-prepared she was - it's devastating to lose your last parent, particularly given that she and Viserys genuinely loved each other, but he was clearly extremely close to death the last time she saw him and the Greens have been preparing to steal the throne from under her for years - this shouldn't have been THAT much of a shock. Daemon was pissed off and irrational about Viserys' death, but clearly had thought through what he would do if the Greens pulled a stunt like this. That Rhaenyra apparently did not is...yikes. But again, it's degrees. This will likely change with the death of her son, but she's currently looking several degrees less awful than either of her half-brothers. Right now, the options for the Greens in terms of who sits the throne are several degrees worse than the options for the Blacks, in terms of who wouldn't gut the realm for their own satisfaction.

Id say its all in what kind of king you want. Aemond is just Daemon, Aemond just doesnt know that yet.  They're war time kings, all about the respect consequences be damned.  Daemons just the worst option at the moment cuz he knows what hes capable of, while Aemonds still a pup.  Would they be horrible options for king? Definitely   Still would prefer them over Aegon who has no idea how to rule and will likely have a court of corruption which would take years to recover from.

Rhaenyra is her fathers daughter, way too conciliatory for her own good. The fact that she was seemingly ok with the hightowers ruling in her father's name and that she was even considering the green's offer tells me shed be a pushover which would be tragic in quite a different way.  Plus would likely also have the same corruption problem.

Jace might be the best choice from either side depending on how he chooses to learn and apply his lessons. He doesnt completely seem to be on board with his mother, but he also seems to know theres a time and a place for everything. 

So I guess all hail king Jace?

[FnkyChkn34]

4 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

None of our options are great, but Rhaenyra does seem like our best bet at this point, even if she certainly has her flaws as a potential ruler. At this point, for all of his tragic mistakes, Viserys is still probably the best ruler we have seen sitting on the Iron Throne in this show or in GoT. 

Was Robert Baratheon really that bad?  We barely saw him as a ruler, but at least he and Rhaenyra seem to care a bit about the people and not just the power.  

[Oscirus]

6 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

None of our options are great, but Rhaenyra does seem like our best bet at this point, even if she certainly has her flaws as a potential ruler. At this point, for all of his tragic mistakes, Viserys is still probably the best ruler we have seen sitting on the Iron Throne in this show or in GoT. 

I find it a bit eye roll inducing so far that they seem to be trying to frame the upcoming war as men behind the scenes manipulating the woman who are the faces of the conflict. I guess they want us to feel more sympathetic towards Alicent and Rhaenyra and their lost friendship, which I do find to be tragic and interesting, but I also hope we don't end up trying to set them up as manipulated pawns of men like Otto and Daemon. I want them to have agency in the story even if that means they aren't as sympathetic. 

I think the real lesson here is that you shouldn't forget that your pets aren't just toys for you to play with, they're living beings with wills of their own. Especially when they're giant flying flame throwing dragons. 

Im thinking its going to be about Alicent and Rhaenyra getting corrupted to the point that by the end of this series, we wont even recognize the women they were at the beginning.  Agency wise, I can see Rhaenyra getting more, the longer she becomes queen, but Alicent is already a robot. She's already selling sexual favors (minor as they may be), I can only imagine how bad it'll get once she starts wanting real favors

[sistermagpie]

17 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

As for the Starks, if they come to learn that Rhae has little to no honor (having corrupted Ser Criston, and given birth to three bastards she has been trying to pass off as legitimate, conspired to have Laenor "killed" so they can marry). I think the Starks could very well rationalize that they owe no loyalty to someone they perceive as dishonorable.

But wouldn't the point be that the Starks made an oath? Deciding to go back on it because the heir did such and such and isn't a very good person doesn't mean the Stark's word hasn't been broken. 

[Uncle JUICE]

On a different topic...wasn't Corlys described as "gravely and potentially mortally wounded"? He's walking around like he rolled his ankle. Couldn't disfigure him a little?

[Stardancer Supreme]

13 hours ago, CatWarmer said:

One thing I don't really understand - how does anyone (other than Aemond) know what happened to Luke and his dragon?  Do the dragons communicate with each other and then with their riders?  The air fight certainly happened out of sight of anyone else.  So if Aemond just plays dumb and says he went for a ride to clear his head, how would anyone know different?  For all anyone knows, Luke could have ridden his dragon into a mountain in the storm and disappeared,

So how does everyone know what happened so quickly?

I'm willing to bet it was the pieces of Arrax that fell from the sky. I don't think that Aemond and Lucerys were over water when Vhagar decided to strike back at Arrax.

[AntFTW]

10 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

On a different topic...wasn't Corlys described as "gravely and potentially mortally wounded"? He's walking around like he rolled his ankle. Couldn't disfigure him a little?

Would've had to sacrifice a dragon 🤣

[Roseanna]

5 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Even though the actor doesn't look it, Aemond's a kid, 

In the same age many nobles irl were already seasoned warriors, even commanders. 

[AntFTW]

3 hours ago, CountryGirl said:

Aemond, on dragon-back, would have been seen giving chase by these same men, particularly given Vhagar's size.

Hard to miss that fat nugget in the sky.

[MrWhyt]

30 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

On a different topic...wasn't Corlys described as "gravely and potentially mortally wounded"? He's walking around like he rolled his ankle. Couldn't disfigure him a little?

he was wounded and then a fever (infection) set in. That was what was threatening his life.

[absnow54]

1 minute ago, MrWhyt said:

he was wounded and then a fever (infection) set in. That was what was threatening his life.

And if he can get his hands on the same maester as Viserys, he can stretch being at "near death" for a solid 10 to 20 years. 

[Dewey Decimate]

1 hour ago, proserpina65 said:

On another shallow note: Vhagar and Vermithor are both ugly as hell, even for old dragons.  Of course she's nearly 200 years old (if I'm calculating the time since Aegon's conquest correctly), so I guess that may be why.

Phew, glad I'm not the only one to think that, and then chide myself for being drago-agist. Vhagar really needs some Plexiderm for those wattles.

As soon as they started with the lightning, I strongly feared Luc was toast, one way or another. And in some strange way, I was almost glad it went down in that manner. Like how I wince in pain when I see a dead animal on the road, but am in awe when I see a hawk catch and kill a bird in my back yard; any dragon's death is a tragedy, but "at least" Arrax got taken out by his own and not by the penis-substitute bolt of some sphincter-faced, over-compensating blowhard from Pike. And it sure seemed like a quick death for both dragon and rider, albeit frightening. Luc was the epitome of a sweet summer child, and just too nice of a young man to make it for long in this now-war. I'll especially miss his kind interactions with his fiancee (Laena? Laenys? Damn these near-identical names) and hope that she finally gets her dragon and takes revenge.

Aemond is a fascinating character, and I really liked how he clearly did not expect that to happen, and assume he therefore did not intend to kill Luc. Gives him a bit of gray shading in this green v. black war. I don't have a side but definitely enjoy some characters more than others. (Please let Criston Cole die a nasty death. Soon.)

Glad to see Corlys still kicking around. He and Rhaenys bring some gravitas to the place.

[Roseanna]

3 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Not to mention he couldve easily turned back around as soon as he saw Vhagar, it wasnt like Aemond was exactly hiding. 

No, he couldn't. He is a son of Princess, now Queen, and she had given him the task. He couldn't return to her and say that he didn't do it because he was afraid.

[proserpina65]

From the Geek Girl Authority recap:

"Aemond is perpetually giving face. Or maybe that’s his resting face face."

If ever there was a perfect description, this is it.

[go4luca]

"The idea that we control the dragons is an illusion" - Viserys

Incredible shot.  #perspective

[Oscirus]

10 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

No, he couldn't. He is a son of Princess, now Queen, and she had given him the task. He couldn't return to her and say that he didn't do it because he was afraid.

He couldve, rhaenyra def wouldve understood and even if it was a must, he couldve easily parked somewhere and waited him out.  There were definitely options

[Cool Breeze]

Feels as if the most likely (reasonable?) option for Aemond is to tell his mother and Otto the truth but shade it for the rest of the realm that he is an unpredictable, bloodthirsty, psychopathic kinslayer.  The inference being, if he does this to his blood, imagine what he would do to you.

Best of both worlds.  His family doesn't think the absolute worst of him.  And the realm does.

[paigow]

32 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

From the Geek Girl Authority recap:

"Aemond is perpetually giving face. Or maybe that’s his resting face face."

Is that the Vogue [Madonna]  fansite?

    They had style, they had grace

     Rita Hayworth gave good face

[RobertDeSneero]

3 hours ago, Cristofle said:

But it's an actual war crime to harm Luke as an envoy. Aemond has committed a war crime.

International law is really a set of gentleman's' agreements.  There are no war crimes if there are no international treaties or laws against them.

[sistermagpie]

43 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

No, he couldn't. He is a son of Princess, now Queen, and she had given him the task. He couldn't return to her and say that he didn't do it because he was afraid.

31 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

He couldve, rhaenyra def wouldve understood and even if it was a must, he couldve easily parked somewhere and waited him out.  There were definitely options

Was there any reason for him to do either of those things? Aemond being there shouldn't have been a reason why he couldn't walk in with his message. 

[paigow]

1 hour ago, absnow54 said:

And if he can get his hands on the same maester as Viserys, he can stretch being at "near death" for a solid 10 to 20 years. 

Unfortunately, that dude is Team Green now...

[AntFTW]

4 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Not to mention he couldve easily turned back around as soon as he saw Vhagar, it wasnt like Aemond was exactly hiding. 

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

No, he couldn't. He is a son of Princess, now Queen, and she had given him the task. He couldn't return to her and say that he didn't do it because he was afraid.

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

He couldve, rhaenyra def wouldve understood and even if it was a must, he couldve easily parked somewhere and waited him out.  There were definitely options

I don't imagine they've talked much since Driftmark other than at Viserys' dinner.

He, and anyone else, couldn't have foreseen that just by Aemond being there in Storm's End that Luke would have died. Everyone was expected to handle this scenario with diplomacy. That's why Rhaenyra stressed that Luke was there as a messenger. That's why Boros Baratheon ensured that Luke wasn't harmed and was safely escorted back to his dragon. Alicent has stressed diplomacy throughout the entire process rather than brute force, and I can't help but think that Alicent also stressed the same to Aemond.

Luke was there to deliver a message, and perhaps take a message for Rhaenyra, and leave. It wasn't a given that Aemond would harm him or chase him down on Vhagar just by Aemond being present. It wasn't absolutely necessary to wait him out. It was reasonable to think that each side would bump into each other from time to time because they are seeking the favor of the same handful of Lords and Ladies, and it was reasonable to think that all sides would act with restraint.

Edited October 24, 2022 by AntFTW

[RobertDeSneero]

2 hours ago, aghst said:

That's one thing Otto wanted to slaughter the blacks, not offer terms at all.

I guess Raynys breaking out ended that element of surprise.

No, offering terms instead of trying to kill the Blacks was what Alicent won by getting to Aegon first.  I'd like to think she asserted dominance by making Otto go to Dragonstone knowing that this is the kind of message that can get messengers killed.

[Stardancer Supreme]

1 hour ago, Uncle JUICE said:

On a different topic...wasn't Corlys described as "gravely and potentially mortally wounded"? He's walking around like he rolled his ankle. Couldn't disfigure him a little?

The thing was, no one really knew how badly he was hurt and assumed that he would die of his injuries before getting back to Driftmark.  I guess that Rhaenys had him rerouted to Dragonstone since she was there. I'm also guessing that Vaemond's body is still in King's Landing, since Rhaenys didn't mention that after telling Corlys his brother was dead.  They probably didn't send Corlys back until the Stepstones were secured for real this time.

[Chicago Redshirt]

9 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Was Robert Baratheon really that bad?  We barely saw him as a ruler, but at least he and Rhaenyra seem to care a bit about the people and not just the power.  

IIRC, Robert didn't show any particular affinity for people, and he didn't really care about the power so much. If he could just have a position where he got to fight, eat and drink and fuck as much as he wanted, he would have turned his back on the people and the crown in a heartbeat.

He was bad with money because he left the realm deep in debt. There's no evidence that he had a clue about all the maneuvering about him. He didn't seemingly care about anything but his appetites.

9 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

But wouldn't the point be that the Starks made an oath? Deciding to go back on it because the heir did such and such and isn't a very good person doesn't mean the Stark's word hasn't been broken. 

People's mileage will vary, but I (and possibly the Starks) consider some oaths a two-way street. If I swear an oath to someone based on a false premise that they willfully deceived me about, I don't think I'm obliged to keep that oath. And some actions are so outrageous that an oath goes by the wayside. Aerys II burning Ned's brother and father for basically no reason was an act that got Ned and the North to realize that whatever loyalty and oaths they were supposed to have to the throne was not justification enough to not rebel.

Now cheating on one's husband, having repeated bastards that you pretend to be legitimate, conspiring to kill that husband when he's no longer convenient are not IMO anywhere close to the avenging the murder of kinsmen. But then again, the Starks might consider such things way worse than you or I might.

There is also the issue of when there are conflicting oaths/duties, trying to figure out which takes precedence.

One example from GOT: After Ned found out that Joffrey and the rest were bastards, he wasn't ready to tell Robert that. Robert told him to write out a proclamation that Joffrey was to take over. Ned undermined his wishes and wrote out a phrase that didn't just give the throne to Joffrey but the king's true heir, meaning Stannis. If he just followed his oath, Ned would have written down exactly what Robert told him to. Instead he followed what he thought was the right thing to do was. 

Edited October 25, 2022 by Chicago Redshirt

[RobertDeSneero]

1 hour ago, Uncle JUICE said:

On a different topic...wasn't Corlys described as "gravely and potentially mortally wounded"? He's walking around like he rolled his ankle. Couldn't disfigure him a little?

I was under the impression that the wound itself wasn't the issue, but the ensuing infection and fever that they weren't sure he would survive.

[Jack Shaftoe]

26 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

IIRC, Robert didn't show any particular affinity for people, and he didn't really care about the power so much. If he could just have a position where he got to fight, eat and drink and fuck as much as he wanted, he would have turned his back on the people and the crown in a heartbeat.

He was bad with money because he left the realm deep in debt. There's no evidence that he had a clue about all the maneuvering about him. He didn't seemingly care about anything but his appetites.

And he was still far better king than Viserys, if you ask me. Because Viserys was that bad. The civil war is mostly his fault. I mean, Otto predicted exactly what would happen almost two decades ago. Viserys did nothing to prevent it. He could have done a gazillion things to strengthen Rhaenyra's position but didn't. The phrase "after me, the deluge" comes to mind.

Robert (well, more like Jon Arryn but still) managed to hold together the realm without the help of dragons. Being deep in dept was quite normal for medieval kings and since Westeros has no external enemies, what does a king need so much money anyway? 🙂

Edited October 24, 2022 by Jack Shaftoe

[jane1978]

Well, this atleast explain why whenever we saw Luc they always portrayed him as the cutest, most innocent thing ever. Say what you want about Alicent´s kids but atleast they have some personality. 

Which is actually true about the waring sides as well. Yeah, it´s amazing how everybody respects and adores each other on the Dragonstone, but it´s kind of boring. And I´m getting tired of Rhae always having the last second luck like last episode with Rhaenys escaping and this with Corlys magically surviving and declaring for her side.

Not defending Aemond here, that was pretty stupid and necessary. I quess he is still really pissed about the eye? But good reminder that dragons are still just animals and the riders control is only limited. 

Not sure how Daemon knew about the tragedy so quick. Luc was still young and he was trying to flight back during a heavy storm. Even passenger flights can get lost during storms. It would make more sense if they just waited and waited for his return, asked the Baratheons if he arrived, and eventually declared him lost at the see. 

Only the people at Baratheon court know about the fight between Luc and Aemond and that Aemond took off soon after Luc. But even if they admitted it all to Rhae (which they have no reason too) Aemond could easily lie he just flew away to calm down and clear his head and he had never followed Luc into the storm.

There are no witnesses of what happened in the skies.

[Oscirus]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

Was there any reason for him to do either of those things? Aemond being there shouldn't have been a reason why he couldn't walk in with his message. 

1 hour ago, AntFTW said:

I don't imagine they've talked much since Driftmark other than at Viserys' dinner.

He, and anyone else, couldn't have foreseen that just by Aemond being there in Storm's End that Luke would have died. Everyone was expected to handle this scenario with diplomacy. That's why Rhaenyra stressed that Luke was there as a messenger. That's why Boros Baratheon ensured that Luke wasn't harmed and was safely escorted back to his dragon. Alicent has stressed diplomacy throughout the entire process rather than brute force, and I can't help but think that Alicent also stressed the same to Aemond.

Luke was there to deliver a message, and perhaps take a message for Rhaenyra, and leave. It wasn't a given that Aemond would harm him or chase him down on Vhagar just by Aemond being present. It wasn't absolutely necessary to wait him out. It was reasonable to think that each side would bump into each other from time to time because they are seeking the favor of the same handful of Lords and Ladies, and it was reasonable to think that all sides would act with restraint.

The last time they interacted with Aemond he was legit calling them bastards in front of alot of people including their mother the heir.  That was under the threat of getting his tongue removed. I would not think someone like that is rational enough to be around without protection. Especially if I was the person responsible for maiming said psycho

Edited October 24, 2022 by Oscirus

[bluvelvet]

I am late, just watched the episode

Wish we had gotten more of the dragons but my overall reaction

Lucerys!! NOOOOOOOO!!😭😭😭😭

I did notice them panning to Rhaena when they mentioned unclaimed dragons, hopefully she gets to claim one soon..

Again

 Lucerys!! NOOOOOOOO!!😭😭😭😭

[Oscirus]

You either need a good king or a good hand. Hell tywin and tyrion did a good job propping up Joffrey and he was a sadistic little shit. Problem is that Otto was too preoccupied with grabbing power to be good and strong mightve been good but we never seen him in action so hard to say

[AntFTW]

9 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

The last time they interacted with Aemond he was legit calling them bastards in front of alot of people including their mother the heir.  That was under the threat of getting their tongue removed. I would not think someone like that is rational enough to be around without protection. Especially if I was the person responsible for maiming said psycho

So it seems that young Aemond lied when he said it was a fair exchange because he got a dragon.

Aemond got the dragon and also wanted severed body part.

[Oscirus]

6 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

So it seems that young Aemond lied when he said it was a fair exchange because he got a dragon.

Aemond got the dragon and also wanted severed body part.

He said that nonsense to his mom to calm her down. I even think that in the back of his mind that he is glad that vhagar didnt stop when he commanded her to do so.