S01.E08: Alloyed

[JTMacc99]

Episode Synopsis:

New alliances are forged.

Reminder: 

There is open air book talk here. If you are just watching the TV show and you don't want to stumble into any book talk you should leave now. Book Talk assumes you have read any of the related books or stories.

[Anduin]

I'm not sure what to think. I liked it, but at the same time I'm left a little confused. Halbrand is Sauron, I get that part. But the Stranger? Gandalf? It was the blue wizards who headed east. Not the only lore deviation this ep. It was the three who were free of Sauron's taint, unlike the others.

You think Eärien looked in the palantir? Also, Pharazon actually looked sad that Tar-Palantir had died. Maybe he thought Miriel would step up and become queen outright. I wonder if he'll be happy to know she's blind, that she needs his help to rule.

Still, it explains why last week felt like a finale. It was, for half the stories.

Now begins the long wait for next season.

[Camera One]

27 minutes ago, Anduin said:

Also, Pharazon actually looked sad that Tar-Palantir had died.

His expression looked sort of sinister to me.  

Letting unguarded randoms spend an hour with a weakened king in such divided times seemed a bit iffy.

Edited October 14, 2022 by Camera One

[Harvey]

Why did the scene where Nori says goodbye take 5 years? It was so extremely boring, I can't with this show.

Sauron's line about not seeing a difference between ruling and healing was cool at least.

[Aulty]

The Halbrand/Sauron slow burn, especially telling Galadriel that she was the driver of the operation that brought him here, was good. Galadriel is acting like a child not alerting anyone to her revelations about Halbrand. The stranger and the cultists was unneccessary and far too long.
Gil-Galad needs a better razor.
Ugh the scene with Sauron in a billowing black cape there at the end.
Is it really a 2 year wait til the next season? Thats too long for a show like this. They will have to build up momentum again.

[Anduin]

45 minutes ago, Aulty said:

The Halbrand/Sauron slow burn, especially telling Galadriel that she was the driver of the operation that brought him here, was good. Galadriel is acting like a child not alerting anyone to her revelations about Halbrand.

She was embarrassed. But I figure she'll tell the others eventually, if only to get ahead of whatever Halron says. Like, whoever talks first gets to win the propaganda war.

[cambridgeguy]

Didn't Gandalf say something about following your nose when they were stuck in Moria?  No guarantee that the Stranger is Gandalf, of course.  It's always possible they'll never confirm his identify beyond being a wizard.

And seriously Galadriel, did you really think Sauron would have taught Celebrimbor about making rings if he didn't have a way to exploit it?  Maybe the elves are desperate enough to take the risk, but someone as clever as him would have made sure he didn't need to be present at their creation to manipulate them in some way.

[moonshine71]

5 hours ago, Harvey said:

Why did the scene where Nori says goodbye take 5 years? It was so extremely boring, I can't with this show.

Sauron's line about not seeing a difference between ruling and healing was cool at least.

I get really happy for a second thinking we were done with harfoots at least, then Nori had to tag along. And that goodbye scene, ughhh, I just didn't care.

[Jenniferbug]

I'm not really sure what I feel about the season finale. I've liked this show more than many here, but this episode felt a bit disappointing. 

It's not that there weren't clues that Halbrand was Sauron being dropped (it was almost TOO obvious), but it feels less narratively interesting to me going forward. He was more interesting to me as a grey character- likely to fall to Sauron's influence or his own self-serving nature- not as the Big Evil himself. I wanted to see how he would rule the southern people and eventually fall, not future seasons of him...skulking around Mt Doom looking evil? I guess Numenor may recapture him and we'll get that story. 

It also seems far less likely now that we will end up getting to know many of the receivers of the rings since Halbrand was really the only clear candidate for one of the nine. I've always wanted to know more about who they all were, including the Dwarven lords. 

I can't imagine the Stranger not being Gandalf at this point either. The actor has been doing amazing in a difficult and largely nonverbal role, but as soon as he regained enough memory to speak with fluency, just about everything he said was very Gandalf-esque. I'm more indifferent to this than the Halbrand reveal, but it still kind of feels like a missed opportunity to explore other wizards. 

I still liked it, I'm still looking forward to the future seasons, but the finale was a little disappointing to me. 

[tv-talk]

I was hoping Halbrandt was eventually going to be the Witch-king of Angmar, once it was obvious he was up to no good. Making him Sauron is just too much, makes the story absurd on so many levels. Was he really about to die from that wound or was he faking? Was he actually the one who caused MtDoom explosion as without that he and Galadrial would never have ended up back in Elf Land and thus forging the 3 rings. Given he is Sauron, does Galadrial actually believe that she through her own awesomeness was somehow not killed by him? And that by simply making 3 rings she's foiled his plan rather than walking right into it? Is Galadrial so filled with pride that she doesnt alert others Halbrandt is Sauron?? I mean really? It's too much.

That said I didnt dislike the episode because I dont expect all that much from the series.

Shame the stranger only started talking now. He's clearly Gandalf and I must admit it warms the heart to hear him talking, the actor does a great early Gandalf. And follow your nose! Terrific.

[QuantumMechanic]

Ugggggggggh. Today’s really was the tear canon to tiny bits, burn it, and stomp on the ashes episode. Boy - if this series is Simon Tolkien’s idea of honoring the original works it’s gonna be scary to see what garbage we see in future years.

[Haleth]

Ok, I don’t care what anyone says, I think that was awesome!  I KNEW Halbrand was Sauron!  I KNEW (well, strongly suspected) the Stranger was Olorin. 

16 hours ago, Aulty said:

Is it really a 2 year wait til the next season? 

Wait.  What??  Seriously?

Didn’t Gandalf say something about following your nose when they were stuck in Moria?

Absolutely. Until that line there was a teeny tiny doubt but that solidified it. Yup, that’s Olorin/Gandalf.

The Nazgûl and Witch King come thousands of years later.

The show had its ups and downs but they stuck the season 1 landing. 

[quarks]

2 hours ago, Haleth said:

The Nazgûl and Witch King come thousands of years later.

In the books, the Nazgul are present for the major Last Alliance, with Gil-galad/Elendil fighting against Sauron.  Which is one minor reason I was hoping that Halbrand would end up as a Nazgul - several signs seemed to be pointing in that direction, and as I noted elsewhere, this show really hasn't shown us that many potential Nazgul. Indeed at this point, now that the cultists are dead, we seem to be down to Waldreg, Kemen, Isildur's one remaining friend, and Theo. Which is considerably fewer than nine. To be fair, we also only have a few Dwarf candidates, so it's not just a lack of Nazgul here. And maybe the show will really pull a twist on us and turn Bronwen into a Nazgul. 

That said, I did enjoy the Sauron/Galadriel confrontation, which helped assuage my "Oh, damn, he is Sauron," reaction to Halbrand the second he sauntered into that forge and ever so conveniently knew who Celebrimbor was.  And I am sorta intrigued by the cultists, and how they seem to know something about the Istari. Something. 

My main book complaint here is one of the same ones I've had all season - Gil-galad is coming off seriously badly here. I know he's not in the books all that much, and I know the Elves aren't supposed to be perfect, but still: this is the guy that Sam Gamgee is still singing songs about thousands of years later. The harpers are supposed to be singing sadly about him, not doing a happy dance that he's dead at last. Unless the song in the original was, "Of him the harpers sadly sing, because he could have been one great king, instead he was mean to all," and these lines were later massively edited. If I'm Elrond, Celebrimbor and Galadriel, I am so not giving him a ring. 

[Camera One]

8 minutes ago, quarks said:

Gil-galad is coming off seriously badly here. If I'm Elrond, Celebrimbor and Galadriel, I am so not giving him a ring. 

His contempt for the three of them was barely hidden.  I was wondering how Celebrimbor was supposed to get everyone to leave Eregion.  How much do the other elves (aka the voiceless extras) know?  Shouldn't Gil-galad make a speech about what was happening?  "The tree is poisoned and we're all going to die, so everyone pick up your express pass to Valinor asap."

[PurpleTentacle]

21 hours ago, Anduin said:

But the Stranger? Gandalf?

Yes. They have been coreographing that from episode one. I think there might still be some rights issues, otherwise they likely would have fully revealed it this episode. I guess they are hoping that they'll be getting the rights eventually.

21 hours ago, Anduin said:

Not the only lore deviation this ep. It was the three who were free of Sauron's taint, unlike the others.

The elven rings were also crafted last, before the one ring, not first.

[QuantumMechanic]

3 hours ago, Haleth said:

The Nazgûl and Witch King come thousands of years later.

Of course, they should have been around for about 1000 years by this point, but oh well.

Really, the compressed timeline is the original and irredeemable sin of this show.  From that decision all sorts of big problems and character assassinations flowed.

They should have had each season set at a different point in Second Age history.  Yes, that means different humans each season.  But you would have the elves for at least some sense of continuity.

And they should also have had writers who could do better than the howlingly clunky dialog being inflicted on us and could avoid idiot ball plots.

Edited October 15, 2022 by QuantumMechanic

[quarks]

29 minutes ago, Camera One said:

His contempt for the three of them was barely hidden.  I was wondering how Celebrimbor was supposed to get everyone to leave Eregion.  How much do the other elves (aka the voiceless extras) know?  Shouldn't Gil-galad make a speech about what was happening?  "The tree is poisoned and we're all going to die, so everyone pick up your express pass to Valinor asap."

Quite a few of them seemed to be sticking around to do more ring crafting and research into the kings of the Southland, so, either Gil-galad failed to make any sort of speech, or they were all like, screw that guy, I'm staying with Celebrimbor.

[quarks]

One more thing that kinda gets me, now that the cultists identified the Stranger as one of the Istari - with that last line of dialogue kinda screaming "Gandalf!" And no, not the "BUT THE WIZARDS DIDN'T SHOW UP UNTIL THE THIRD AGE!" Tolkien had several notes/drafts - including the latest ones published in The Nature of Middle-earth - indicating that the Istari initially came to Middle-earth in the First Age and kinda just kept travelling back and forth. So that's fine.

What's less fine, VALAR, is sending one of them IN A METEOR instead of one of the very nice ships you used in the Third Age, presumably giving him a very nasty head injury and thus making him vulnerable to the cultists. And sure, maybe the idea was to give the Istari some idea of what mere mortals go through but as helpful plans go it does not seem very helpful. 

Unless this particular Istari decided to make a somewhat unauthorized trip. 

[Camera One]

28 minutes ago, quarks said:

Quite a few of them seemed to be sticking around to do... research into the kings of the Southland

Don't get me started on that elf who was asked to be discreet about Galadriel's research requests, but brings the scroll right into the hub of activity to deliver it to Galadriel.  Their hive minds clearly only share half a brain.

[katha]

The more I'm thinking about it, the more the Sauron reveal works for me. It's not exactly by the books, but can be sorta extrapolated from them in spirit IMO and it's one of the better character arcs of the season. Writing for characters is something they don't do that well, they give them each a main goal and then awkwardly structure everything around it. They're better at individual moments, symbolism and how everything works within the broader story. 

Even stuff that seemed annoying now gets new meaning.  That whole raft adventure reads like a major mindtrip now and just figuring out what Halbrand says, how he says it, how he reacts to Galadriel and what he reveals/conceals is awesome. As is that whole Han Solo cosplay. He figured out exactly the kind of man she'd find intriguing but not threatening and played into it. Including seemingly always staying a step behind her and letting her make the big decisions, or at least manipulating her in such a way that she thought she was in charge of everything and making all the decisions. And the moments of ruthlessness/cold-blooded ambition delivered often as lighthearted banter. And even when he was seemingly honest and sincere, yet framed it in such a fashion that he could lie with the truth. Looking back on it, it's a very well considered performance by Vickers. Including the smoothness and then the authority in the last episode, finally lifting the veil. 

In that same vein, they did give an outline how Galadriel can move from dogmatic zealot to someone so much more measured, as seen in the LOTR. Because, boy howdy, screwing up that badly will haunt her forever. 

[silverstream]

I can't be the only one who finds it pretty funny that Galadriel realises Halbrand is Sauron when she finds out the Southlands haven't had a king for a thousand years. From the moment that plotthread first appeared, I though Galadriel deciding that he's the king of the Southlands based on a random sigil he happens to wear was either really bad shorthand from a writing perspective or was set up that way to bite her in the behind later, but this is extreme. It also makes the behaviour of the Southlanders last episode when they were told that their king is back rather weird in retrospect.

On 10/14/2022 at 8:38 AM, Anduin said:

You think Eärien looked in the palantir? Also, Pharazon actually looked sad that Tar-Palantir had died. Maybe he thought Miriel would step up and become queen outright. I wonder if he'll be happy to know she's blind, that she needs his help to rule.

Presumably it won't be hard to depose her, given that the political situation in Numenor was already volatile and Miriel's latest decision, the expedition to Middle Earth, turned out to be an unmitigated disaster...

[Grimnar]

Númenor storyline is very short this episode and except death of king, nothing important happened.

Stranger is one of Istari and more or less confirmed Gandalf. I have to say it was little let down as I though that 3 cultists will play bigger role in this storyline. Little suprised that Sadoc's death went without much reaction from other Harfoots and Nori's farewell little drag the flow of the storyline.

Elven storyline is kind of dissapointment for me. I enjoyed the little time where they were discussing, testing, etc how to make rings(I would like that this part would be spread among more episodes). Forging of rings should be big event in the story and here it was rushed into one episode.
I wonder what were intentions from writers about Galadriel. For me she was first presented as unlikable character, in previous episode she started to being more sympathetic(I think that trying to find Celeborn or at least some information about him should be part of her motivation, which would made her more sympathetic for viewers). But now we found that she was easily played by Sauron. She pushed that Halbrand should be king(IIRC he really told her that he found the sigil on dead man) based on her believe that he is hidden king and now she didn't tell anyone about Sauron being alive and knowing about rings. Making 3 rings instead of 2 isn't really good guarantee(as 9 rings is example of that). I mean what she hoped to achieve with keeping it secret. Also Sauron basicaly used similar words she will say in Fellowship so it kind of cheapen her rejection of One Ring when she rejected Sauron now. 
lso I think that Sauron would work better as Atannar who was there the whole time with Celebrimbor and would appeard in last episode and that forging of rings was long term project between Atannar and Celebrimbor.

My thoughts on whole season:

- Harfoots storyline was first for me interesting but later it soured for me when we learned that they just abond everyone who is slowing them done. So we went from supposedly tight community of hartfoots to pretty ruthless people(just take their cart). I wonder how it will fit in next seasons to overall storyline as Harfoots, were except meteor, removed from other stories

- Númenor lacked greatness and so far their downfall will be without the impact on me where we would went from noble Númenor to Númenor which was exploiting people from Middle Earth, were jealous of elves, etc

- Dwarves part of story was good but I still think that we should have Celebrimbor as friend of Durin(or Narvi) as it would better build his character.  In next season we will get probably "power struggle" between Durin and his father.

- Galadriel storyline really didn't click with me as for most of the time she wasn't very likeable character and last episode made her kind of responsible for the future mess.

- Adar was great and you could at least understand his motivation.

- what didn't work for me was scale of the world. It seemed to me like we get to some location(Moria, Southland, etc) but we were restricted to only 1-3 sets, e. g. Southland storyline happend basicaly in one village. Which is kind of in opposite when creators felt that Jackson showed only small part of the world in LotR movies.

- writting and storytelling were on low end for me. Dialogs tried to be with deeper meaning but came as weird and for most storylines we kind of have handwave many illogical things, e.g. Halbrand being lost king of Souhtland doesn't make sense after last episode, shouldn't people in Southland and Arondir know that king or central authority wasn't there for 1000 years?, the whole fading of elves and mithril storyline.

- I think that authors also relied to much on easter eggs from LotR movies(follow your nose if you are in doubt, balrog, harfoots or even some scenes were kind of copied from Jackson's movies). I don't mind easter eggs but they shouldn't be too obvious.

- I am little afraid of the many mystery boxes. We still don't know why Númenor hate elves, what happend to Anarion or what is doing Isildur now, fading of elves, Sauron's plan from early episodes(why was he on the raft, etc), who were the cultists or from where they get their power, why Istar has "amnesia", etc. I'm afraid that in future many of these boxes will be left without answer. Correct me if I'm wrong but Tolkien didn't have many mysteries in stories(I mean mysteries as there is some turncloack, etc).

- visuals and music were good to great

- I have to say that I was little dissapointed how little of lore authors used. I know that adaptions have to make some cuts, simplification, etc but I didn't expect that they would change it so much(making elven rings before 9 and 7 and with Sauron's help, Númenor as isolated nation, mithril, etc).

Overall I think that season was ok(average to little above average, 6/10) but I am not sure how many people from group which didn't love the show(or hate it) will return to next season as next season is in 2+ years.

[Camera One]

1 hour ago, silverstream said:

It also makes the behaviour of the Southlanders last episode when they were told that their king is back rather weird in retrospect.

21 minutes ago, Grimnar said:

e.g. Halbrand being lost king of Souhtland doesn't make sense after last episode, shouldn't people in Southland and Arondir know that king or central authority wasn't there for 1000 years?

I was thinking about that too.  I suppose the writers could argue that the South landers didn't keep their history, so a hopeful myth could have been passed down over those 1000 years of a lost heir to the throne who will reclaim the kingship on a future date.

When Galadriel threw down the scroll, I half expected Halbrand to explain that his ancestor was an illegitimate child of the last King of the South lands who was secretly adopted and their family had to keep this secret over the generations since it is said his return would be accompanied by darkness or some other drivel. 

[Grimnar]

4 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I was thinking about that too.  I suppose the writers could argue that the South landers didn't keep their history, so a hopeful myth could have been passed down over those 1000 years of a lost heir to the throne who will reclaim the kingship on a future date.

When Galadriel threw down the scroll, I half expected Halbrand to explain that his ancestor was an illegitimate child of the last King of the South lands who was secretly adopted and their family had to keep this secret over the generations since it is said his return would be accompanied by darkness or some other drivel. 

Yes, Halbrand could easily go with how his ancestors were illegitimate children of last king but instead we got: Ok, you got me, want to rule Middle Earth with me?

[PeterPirate]

Things I am looking forward to seeing next season:
* Nori's and Gandalf's Adventures in Rhun.  
* Halbrand vs. Adar in the Battle for Mordor. 
* Anything with the Dwarves.

Regarding Galadriel's choice not to reveal Halbrand's true identity.  There are still sixteen rings (or more) to be crafted, and Halbrand/Sauron/Annatar presumably has to travel back to Lindon to help Celebrimbor craft those rings, and then steal them.  

Hey, Galadriel told the other Elves not to work with Halbrand.  They're supposed to listen to her, doncha know.  

Or maybe they will put Spock ears on Charlie Vickers and he'll pretend to be an Elf.  If they give him a short haircut the disguise should work perfectly.  

Edited October 15, 2022 by PeterPirate

[Quark]

I absolutely loved this show.

The music and visuals were particularly amazing.

It's just so nice to be back in this world.

[wanderingstar]

On 10/14/2022 at 2:38 AM, Anduin said:

I'm not sure what to think.

This is how I feel about the season as a whole. There were moments during some of the episodes where I felt truly transported and very invested in where the story was going. But at other times, I found some of it kinda pointless. 

I am glad that this episode gave us some good reveals (The Stranger, Sauron). I mostly enjoyed it, 

Thought we'd get more time in Numenor, maybe with the Queen Regent mourning her father. I was also curious what was happening with Elendil's daughter, Earien. A bit surprised that we didn't check in with the dwarves or the Southlanders again.

This fairly positive review of the finale also includes some areas for improvement.

Quote

What could “The Rings of Power” improve on in the seasons to come? One of the show’s biggest weaknesses is one shared by a lot of prestige TV dramas: The episodes are too long, and too repetitive. 

On this one, I could not agree more.

[Camera One]

6 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

Or maybe they will put Spock ears on Charlie Vickers and he'll pretend to be an Elf.  If they give him a short haircut the disguise should work perfectly.  

And then once he is discovered, he can put on a scraggly wig with acorns stuck to it and call himself Halbrandyfoot.

[cambridgeguy]

13 hours ago, Gillian Rosh said:

Thought we'd get more time in Numenor, maybe with the Queen Regent mourning her father. I was also curious what was happening with Elendil's daughter, Earien. A bit surprised that we didn't check in with the dwarves or the Southlanders again.

Unless Halbrand had gone directly back to them the Southlanders aren't really up to anything interesting right now unless the orcs are attacking them.  Of course, it's going to be hilarious when Galadriel tells them that their "king" who appeared out of thin air isn't their actual king, so sorry to get your hopes up!  She'll also can't just tell them he's Sauron, but also needs to warn them that he's far too powerful to attack if he ever shows up in person.

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, cambridgeguy said:

Unless Halbrand had gone directly back to them the Southlanders aren't really up to anything interesting right now unless the orcs are attacking them.  Of course, it's going to be hilarious when Galadriel tells them that their "king" who appeared out of thin air isn't their actual king, so sorry to get your hopes up!  She'll also can't just tell them he's Sauron, but also needs to warn them that he's far too powerful to attack if he ever shows up in person.

The humans who were following Adar seemed to have some loyalty to Sauron and it is possible that, hey, when he reveals himself, he will have followers among the Southlanders. There are indications that he is their actual King, after all, just not of the original line. I'm guessing this story will run through the second season.

Also, If his attempt to be a good person was crushed when Galadriel rejected him it wasn't very deep. I wonder if he will get behing Mound Doom as a hotter forge where he can make rings for himself, or initially oppose it and Adar,

Thinking of this season, I think it would work better seen all at once (with snack breaks) and assessed as a whole unit. It also seems like it came to a conclusion. If there is no second season, or if people no longer have access, well I can see being okay with this ending. Sides have been taken and now, it seems, the story will play out.

The Haldbrand story was well done, from the beginning. I hope Galadriel and Haldbrand/Sauron have some more major interactions and work together, though, because I think there is more to mine in that relationship.

[Haleth]

My only complaint about the show as a whole was that it packed way too much into 8 episodes. There were too many characters and storylines to check on each week so the pacing was problematic. It was like a buffet where you add a taste of each dish to your plate and end up with more than you can eat at one sitting. Wish they could have added a few more episodes to spread the feast out more.

Or that there was room for one more serving of Dwarves.

Still, I loved it. 

[Anduin]

3 minutes ago, Haleth said:

My only complaint about the show as a whole was that it packed way too much into 8 episodes. There were too many characters and storylines to check on each week so the pacing was problematic. It was like a buffet where you add a taste of each dish to your plate and end up with more than you can eat at one sitting. Wish they could have added a few more episodes to spread the feast out more.

Or that there was room for one more serving of Dwarves.

Still, I loved it. 

I don't watch much TV these days, but I saw For All Mankind do something similar. Let's really pack the story in, showing only the minimum in order to advance the plot. Yes, it was a bit frustrating. I get the gist, but still want more.

[Affogato]

32 minutes ago, Anduin said:

I don't watch much TV these days, but I saw For All Mankind do something similar. Let's really pack the story in, showing only the minimum in order to advance the plot. Yes, it was a bit frustrating. I get the gist, but still want more.

I am increasingly convinced that a 20 or so series of episodes, spread over 2/3 of a year, is more effective at telling many epic television dramas, as well as providing a better work environment, pay and benefits, for the people that work on the show. The stranger and harfoot storyline would not have had to have been brought to an immediate conclusion, leaving more time to establish the dwarves and elves and explore the political moods of the Southlands and Numenor. The army could have taken longer to get to middle earth,

Less money per episode, perhaps, but they have good actors and could have held our attention.

[Camera One]

Quote

The episodes are too long, and too repetitive. 

I agree with that article the episodes were too repetitive, in that within each subplot, similar events occurred over and over again.  The most egregious example was the Harfoots subplot, where we had the Stranger involved in accidents that made Nori question him multiple times, and then coming to the same realization every time.  So to me, the episodes were not too long.  If anything, we needed more time.  It was a poor allocation of time.  

3 hours ago, Haleth said:

There were too many characters and storylines to check on each week so the pacing was problematic. It was like a buffet where you add a taste of each dish to your plate and end up with more than you can eat at one sitting. Wish they could have added a few more episodes to spread the feast out more.

I agree there were too many characters, to the point, where I personally could not "taste" enough of each dish to care about many of the characters and subplots.  So I ended up with an experience which felt very empty.

The actors themselves I would say were solid and the visuals were nice.  But each of the societies - Lindon/Eregion in particular, but also Numenor (and to a lesser extent Khazad-dum and the South Lands) needed more worldbuilding.  We needed to see more of the political situation in the  Elven lands.  What did all the other Elves think and how did their society even work?  Without that context, the whole dire dying tree scenario felt like an artificial obstacle.

Similarly, the politics and factions in Numenor needed to be fleshed out a lot more before the whole issue of whether to send troops with Galadriel came up.  I felt like I did not see enough of Gil-galad, Celebrimbor, Miriel, Pharazon or even Elendil and his family to care about any of them or understand their motivations, so they felt like cardboard cut-outs moving from one place to another doing stuff that the plot demanded of them.  

Even characters that got screentime like Elrond needed more fleshing out.  The show can't just expect us to assume the backstories based on Tolkien except they are changing the lore left right and center.  All I saw was Elrond claiming to be a great friend in one episode, and then acting like a suspicious jerk in the next, and then hapless indirect oath-breaker in the next, and then back to BFF who would sacrifice all for their brotherhood.  I had variations of this type of issue with almost every character on the show, making it difficult to like or identify with them and making the show less immersive.

If the dialogue was better and more efficient, it would have allowed better character development and building with the given time.  But not only was the dialogue (especially in the first half of the series) clunky, the characters spoke in cryptic lines that told us nothing about them or felt disingenuous.  Elendil responds to questions by talking about the sunrise or quoting platitudes half the time, so he was ultimately a very basic character who was grieving his wife when there was supposed to be a lot of complexity about his allegiance and what he wanted for Isildur.

I hope the showrunners don't listen to simplistic criticisms like "The first episode was boring" and respond by just packing more action into every episode.  The issues were much, much more complex than that. 

I'm trying to figure out though why the show did keep drawing me back, because I did want to watch the next episode right when it was released (compared to other shows).  I wonder if it is the fact that it's set in Middle Earth (even if it's a warped version of it).  Anyway, it does tell me that I could potentially really like the series, and I hope it drastically improves next season, though some of the somewhat dismissive words of the showrunners give me pause. 

Edited October 16, 2022 by Camera One

[eelpout]

On 10/14/2022 at 12:44 AM, Harvey said:

Why did the scene where Nori says goodbye take 5 years? It was so extremely boring, I can't with this show.

I found myself skipping past most of the Harfoot stuff (our brand is forced perspective!) during the entire series. :( 

[MJ Frog]

Well, the showrunners have managed to take a story that is inherently tragic and beautiful and epical, and make it small. But I know my expectations are unreasonably high, especially given the legal limitations. Adaptations are difficult under the best of circumstances, and even under ideal conditions it would be very difficult to find writers and directors who have both the feel for the material and the poetry to express it on-screen. It just would have been nice to see is all, and we will likely not get this chance again in my lifetime.

The more I think about it, instead of trying to use a mystery to drive the story along – which is a lazy way to inject energy into a story and made for some goofy plotlines – the first season should have begun with Sauron and revolved around him. Little is said in canon about Sauron between the beginning of the Second Age and the forging of the rings, giving the writers a whole lot of room to explore without crossing any legal lines. And there could have been plenty of flashbacks to the First Age, which is covered in greater detail than I remembered in the appendices. We could even get to see a scene with him and his old boss. There are any number of ways they could have gone with that while both constructing a great build-up to the creation of the rings and remaining much more faithful to the spirit of the story.

Or, it could have revolved around Celebrimbor and his fellow smiths of Eregion, and him being at odds with Gil Galad, Elrond, and Galadriel, all of whom wanted nothing to do with the Lord of Gifts, even though they didn’t know who he really was. But this? This wasn’t it.

Unpopular opinion (as if the above wasn't enough): I enjoyed the Harfoots, despite thinking I would like them the least. I know a lot of people were disappointed by their occasionally ruthless practicality, but I didn't expect them to be perfect, certainly not a people so small and vulnerable. And really, the heart of that story was the friendship between Nori and Poppy, who would never abandon anybody. Also, I LOVE Irish accents.

Edited October 16, 2022 by MJ Frog
To add a thing.

[Camera One]

19 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

This got me thinking about that "superfan" spot where one of them said Sauron was "hot" and could be fixed.  Those things were entirely scripted, so it's a good sign we're going to see your idea come to pass. 

I was just reading an article titled, "The Rings of Power Fans Still Shipping Galadriel and Halbrand After Season Finale", and there was this interesting quote:

Quote

"That scene was, we were very much thinking of and drawing on the temptation scene in Fellowship," executive producer and writer Gennifer Hutchison revealed to ComicBook.com about the Sauron/Galadriel scene. "And really thinking about, she's so relieved when she passes that test, but she really shows this side of herself that is surprising at the time. And so really wanting to build into that idea of, what had she been through? Where had she come from? And really, in a way, trying to maybe build even more of a backstory for that moment. So when you look at that moment now, maybe you're thinking of that like, 'Oh, gosh. This is even more of a significant test for her,' because it's almost like closing a final door to this thing that we started here. We talked about that scene all the time."

So it seems like they are trying to take moments from the Peter Jackson trilogy and writing scenes on this show that re-contextualizes it.  That shows a little about how the writers are making some of their story decisions.

[PeterPirate]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

I was just reading an article titled, "The Rings of Power Fans Still Shipping Galadriel and Halbrand After Season Finale", and there was this interesting quote:

Quote

"That scene was, we were very much thinking of and drawing on the temptation scene in Fellowship," executive producer and writer Gennifer Hutchison revealed to ComicBook.com about the Sauron/Galadriel scene. "And really thinking about, she's so relieved when she passes that test, but she really shows this side of herself that is surprising at the time. And so really wanting to build into that idea of, what had she been through? Where had she come from? And really, in a way, trying to maybe build even more of a backstory for that moment. So when you look at that moment now, maybe you're thinking of that like, 'Oh, gosh. This is even more of a significant test for her,' because it's almost like closing a final door to this thing that we started here. We talked about that scene all the time."

So it seems like they are trying to take moments from the Peter Jackson trilogy and writing scenes on this show that re-contextualizes it.  That shows a little about how the writers are making some of their story decisions.

That was a good article.  The Temptation of Galadriel scene is straight out of the books.  

I wonder, though, what it means now that Galadriel has "passed the test".  If they don't give her a new character arc then she will fade into the background, and I doubt the PTB will let that happen.  So I think they will have Galadriel try to "fix" Sauron.  This show is a modern-day re-imagining, after all.  

Besides, if they are going to make Sauron look like Walter White, they might as well make Galadriel look like Kim Wexler.  

Edited October 16, 2022 by PeterPirate

[Camera One]

2 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

I wonder, though, what it means now that Galadriel has "passed the test".  If they don't give her a new character arc then she will fade into the background, and I doubt the PTB will let that happen.  So I think they will have Galadriel try to "fix" Sauron.  This show is a modern-day re-imagining, after all.  

I think they might continue a similar arc where she tries to continue the fight alone, and eventually she learns the very important lesson that she has to trust others?  She will likely refuse to tell Elrond anything (or even lash out at him) and run off after Sauron.  Since she is fighting her feelings, I guess she won't be able to bring herself to "killing" Sauron when they inevitably come face to face again.  This isn't something I'd enjoy watching, so I hope they come up with something else and a more interesting arc.

I could have imagined an attempted redemption storyline if it hadn't been so clearcut that Halbrand was fully Sauron.  He also tried to kill her, and that's hard to overlook.  Unless we're supposed to interpret that he couldn't bring himself to kill her, so just knocked her out.  A "trying to fix him" storyline might be approached if they do a bunch of flashbacks showing how Sauron really was repentant and wanted a new start as Halbrand but was casted out into the sea and that's how he ended up on the raft.  But if the flashbacks showed he manipulated everything from the start, how are viewers supposed to root for a redemption beyond the hotness factor?  One would think Sauron would have chosen to appear as a more buff guy, LOL.

Edited October 17, 2022 by Camera One

[shrewd.buddha]

18 hours ago, Camera One said:

But if the flashbacks showed he manipulated everything from the start, how are viewers supposed to root for a redemption beyond the hotness factor? 

Here is my take: Sauron became aware of Galadriel's search for him during those hundreds of years. He became intrigued by her obsession and thought she might make a good queen to his being king. He then put a plan in motion to meet and seduce her.
Sauron/Halbrand has never, ever been in danger of drowning or dying -- at any time.  That's why he has been so patient and laid back when in jail, etc. (And why he inexplicably jumped on a horse and rode for days while severely injured during the battle against Adar and the Orcs.)
Sauron/Halbrand manipulated circumstances to end up on that piece of ship wreckage to meet Galadriel -- that's why he didn't care at all about the other survivors and maybe killed them when they were separated from Galadriel. 
What are the odds, even in a fantasy world, that Sauron would happen to be the person to find Galadriel swimming alone in that particular ocean?
Everything has been a setup by Sauron/Halbrand to create a bond with Galadriel.   And Galadriel fell for all of it. 
 

Edited October 17, 2022 by shrewd.buddha
grammar

[Camera One]

4 minutes ago, shrewd.buddha said:

Sauron/Halbrand manipulated circumstances to end up on that piece of wreckage to meet Galadriel

But then the more time Halbrand/Sauron spent with Galadriel, the more the goodness - the pureness from Valinor - seeped through and entered his tortured conflicted soul and chaaaaaaaanged him for the better.  Away from Galadriel, he finally truly recognizes this.  He's different now, better, all because of her.  He can stand there looking like a cool villain with dark winds blowing his new hairdo, but he can't even bring himself to kill Adar anymore!  If ONLY Galadriel would give him another chance.  He feels he can make his growing goodness headaches go away and mithril takes the edge off, but Galadriel is SO much more effective than mithril.  But if she rejects him, then he has nothing else to lose and might turn into the biggest most evil villain ever, making ONE ring in a vain attempt to control Galadriel to make her love him.  Sorry, I can't go on as I swoon at this tortured love story that even rivals Romeo and Juliet.  

Edited October 17, 2022 by Camera One

[Affogato]

47 minutes ago, shrewd.buddha said:

Here is my take: Sauron became aware of Galadriel's search for him during those hundreds of years. He became intrigued by her obsession and thought she would made a good queen to his being king. He then put a plan in motion to meet and seduce her.
Sauron/Halbrand has never, ever been in danger of drowning or dying -- at any time.  That's why he has been so patient and laid back when in jail, etc. (And why he inexplicably jumped on a horse and rode for days while severely injured during battle.)
Sauron/Halbrand manipulated circumstances to end up on that piece of wreckage to meet Galadriel -- that's why he didn't care at all about the other survivors and maybe killed them when they were separated from Galadriel.  What are the odds, even in a fantasy world, that Sauron would happen to be the person to find Galadriel swimming alone in that particular ocean?
Everything has been a setup by Sauron/Halbrand to create a bond with Galadriel.   And Galadriel fell for all of it. 
 

I was on a virtual tour of an ocean going ship that digs rock cores from the ocean bottom. The long drill tube goes from the ship to the bottom of the ocean. I was told there is film from one of these boats of an octopus swimming along, nothing visible for miles, and running into the drill.

The odds of her being rescued were very low.

[Affogato]

15 hours ago, Camera One said:

I think they might continue a similar arc where she tries to continue the fight alone, and eventually she learns the very important lesson that she has to trust others?  She will likely refuse to tell Elrond anything (or even lash out at him) and run off after Sauron.  Since she is fighting her feelings, I guess she won't be able to bring herself to "killing" Sauron when they inevitably come face to face again.  This isn't something I'd enjoy watching, so I hope they come up with something else and a more interesting arc.

I could have imagined an attempted redemption storyline if it hadn't been so clearcut that Halbrand was fully Sauron.  He also tried to kill her, and that's hard to overlook.  Unless we're supposed to interpret that he couldn't bring himself to kill her, so just knocked her out.  A "trying to fix him" storyline might be approached if they do a bunch of flashbacks showing how Sauron really was repentant and wanted a new start as Halbrand but was casted out into the sea and that's how he ended up on the raft.  But if the flashbacks showed he manipulated everything from the start, how are viewers supposed to root for a redemption beyond the hotness factor?  One would think Sauron would have chosen to appear as a more buff guy, LOL.

I think it was way too soon for Sauron to reveal himself, but I think you are right. She is angry at herself and will feel like she should take the responsibility of fixing it, without getting anyone else hurt. I think she is a pretty trope ridden character.

[Emily Thrace]

18 hours ago, Camera One said:

I was just reading an article titled, "The Rings of Power Fans Still Shipping Galadriel and Halbrand After Season Finale", and there was this interesting quote:

So it seems like they are trying to take moments from the Peter Jackson trilogy and writing scenes on this show that re-contextualizes it.  That shows a little about how the writers are making some of their story decisions.

Yeah it also takes away from Tolkien's (and Jackson's) intent that it subvert the biblical scene of Eve biting the apple. Tolkien never agreed with the idea that woman are weaker and deliberately wrote Galadriel's temptation to subvert that. By having Galadriel's whole arc this season revolve around being tricked by a man these idiots have reinforced that trope. Actually if you take into account Muriel being blinded and now in Elendiel's care, Nori leaving everything behind to follow Gandalf and Bronwyn riding off with Arondir you argue the whole show is saying women are better off being taken care of by a man. How very Mormon of them. 

I think I will need to wait until the first couple episodes air before I decide to watch next season or not. If they have Galadriel trying to cover up for Sauron or its all about him "seducing" her I may be out. If I wanted to watch a show where "strong" female characters are trashed to prop up shitty men I would have watched House of Dragons.

[PeterPirate]

"Representation" can be a sword that cuts both ways.  I previously pointed out the problems of casting POC as Harfoots, ie, "proto-Hobbits".  Since Harfoots were the "darker" of the three types of Hobbits, this implies that the lighter-skinned Fallohides are going to somehow evolve from the Harfoots, aka Hobbit Version 1.0.  

Another issue deals with the casting of POC among the Numenoreans.  By the time they conquer Sauron and invade Valinor in the books, they have established dominion over much of the coastal regions and indigenous peoples of Middle Earth. 

And regarding the invasion itself, there is this part from Akallabeth: 

Thus the fleets of the Númenóreans moved against the menace of the West; and there was little wind, but they had many oars and many strong slaves to row beneath the lash.

So when the time comes, who is going to be in charge of all those slaves?  The Sail Master.  Antonio Te Maioho.  Barca.  

Just saying, representation can be a sword that cuts both ways.  

[shrewd.buddha]

3 hours ago, Camera One said:

He can stand there looking like a cool villain with dark winds blowing his new hairdo, but he can't even bring himself to kill Adar anymore!  If ONLY Galadriel would give him another chance. 

My other suspicion is that maybe Sauron and Adar are playing a long con game against Galdriel and the Elves.  Would Adar have no awareness that Halbrand was Sauron?  Can Sauron mask his 'evil wizard energy' from everyone? 
Everything seems to have been done to make Sauron/Halbrand look noble and sympathetic to Galadriel. 

[Ilovepie]

On 10/15/2022 at 9:35 AM, silverstream said:

I can't be the only one who finds it pretty funny that Galadriel realises Halbrand is Sauron when she finds out the Southlands haven't had a king for a thousand years. From the moment that plotthread first appeared, I though Galadriel deciding that he's the king of the Southlands based on a random sigil he happens to wear was either really bad shorthand from a writing perspective or was set up that way to bite her in the behind later, but this is extreme. It also makes the behaviour of the Southlanders last episode when they were told that their king is back rather weird in retrospect.

Thank you. This whole plot seems crazy to me! Warrior Galadriel who doesn't trust anyone (including the actual Queen of Numenor who should be seen as an elf ally) is suddenly like "you are the king of the Southlands!" even though he was all "No I'm not. No I'm not. Okay, sure". And then all of the villagers cheering some guy they've never seen because an elf says "He's your king!", yet side eyed Arondir when he showed up and completely untrusting of Bronwyn (who lives in their village!) until she hefted an orc head onto the counter. Just terrible characterization all around.

It's also probably bad that I was actually happy to see Sauron show up Galadriel after her sneering hubris for most of this show. His demeanor shift was so subtle but effective. I am loving him. Is it wrong to want to root for Sauron now because Charlie Vickers is so delightful?

On 10/14/2022 at 12:44 AM, Harvey said:

Why did the scene where Nori says goodbye take 5 years?

Boy you said it. I never thought she would leave! I feel like they wanted to portray the emotion of Frodo saying goodbye to the Shire at the end of the last movie, but here it just isn't earned at all. Fifteen hugs. I swear it was the third age by the time Nori walked up the hill to him.....

[PeterPirate]

Some second-unit footage of the Southlanders arriving in Pelargir would have been good.  As well as a shot of Disa giving her FIL the side-eye during a family dinner.  

I would say the best part of season 1 were the scenes with Bronwyn and Arondir.  I imagine they will be the face of the resistance once Numenor begins to colonize and exploit Middle Earth.  

I saw a comment online that referred to Jeff Bezos as "Ar-Amazon".  I thought that worth repeating.  

Edited October 18, 2022 by PeterPirate

[Anduin]

6 hours ago, Ilovepie said:

Boy you said it. I never thought she would leave! I feel like they wanted to portray the emotion of Frodo saying goodbye to the Shire at the end of the last movie, but here it just isn't earned at all. Fifteen hugs. I swear it was the third age by the time Nori walked up the hill to him.....

She's saying goodbye to her family and friends, the people she's known and loved her whole life. She doesn't know if she's ever going to see them again. Empathy, come on!

[katha]

I agree with various criticisms of the show here, but found that the last episodes really pulled it around for me. And the earlier stuff makes more sense now that their mystery boxes have been IMO mostly successfully opened.

What I think many shows and movies do very badly is establish decent villains. ROP managed to have two competent, intelligent and patient bad guys with Adar and Sauron. The Uruk rights campaign, Galadriel's crazy racist rant at him etc. is something that has been bothering me since the Jackson films. The heroes always mow down through Orcs/Uruks without every acknowledging that they are killing living beings, Elves that were tortured to boot. It was nice to see that as a plot point/blind spot of the supposed good guys.

And I think both writing and acting for Sauron is just really precise and sharp. How he's flexible in reacting to Galadriel and uses her blind spots and zealotry to lead her in a merry dance. And as he points out, he may have gaslighted her, but she made all these decisions on her own. He didn't even lie to her, just presented the truth in a way that left her free to interpret it in the most catastrophically wrong way possible. And she fell for all of it, hook, line and sinker. That said, he's also just really good and vastly older and more experienced at all this than her, which the last episode showed. The way the real power dynamic is unveiled in acting, writing and cinematography is a real highlight of the series IMO.

As for Galadriel, Tolkien does paint her as drawn to power and secretive before the Third Age. There's also a reason she stays ouf of the effort in LOTR mostly, despite being the most powerful Elf still around. By that point she knows her own worst attributes and can see how trying to directly intervene with Sauron once more might bring them out. So I do appreciate that they basically made her the anti Mary Sue here LOL: All her flaws have disastrous consequences. Her own company mutinies against her because she overstretched her mission. She gets thrown in jail because she just has to run her mouth. She leads Numenor into a disastrous battle, weakening the position of Miriel, who seems a lot more benign than Pharazon. She can't stop the nuking of the Southlands, letting herself get distracted by Adar (and Halbrand/Sauron?). She leads Sauron to the Elves and gives him access to create/taint the first rings of power. And now it seems she's in a bind because the Elves need the rings but she'd get herself banned if she confessed her role in empowering Sauron. Which is something Sauron carefully established. She took so many Ls this season, it's kinda impressive that the showrunners dared to go there IMO.

Of course it remains to be seen if they know how to untangle it going forward, but it's certainly a bold choice and one usually given to male protagonists. I'd guess that she'll have mixed success going forward as well, because the Second Age was a mess all around LOL.