S01.E04: A Hope in Hell

[Meredith Quill]

Quote

A lead on the whereabouts of his helm compels Morpheus to seek an audience with Lucifer. A confused John receives a helping hand from a good Samaritan.

[PurpleTentacle]

I knew Gaiman hated the TV show Lucifer (and for the first few seasons I can understand, it was more of a guilty pleasure), but I was still hoping to see Tom Ellis there for a second.

Gwendolin Christie is of course always amazing to see in whatever she is in, but I question that wig. I guess it was supposed to give her an angelic appearence but made her just look weird as hell (pardon the pun). I think they should have gone with a devil who embraced her job and got a haircut that befit it.

Christie elevated that material quite a bit, but that's the only thing this show has going for it so far, amazing actors. It seems to be plodding along paint by numbers, without much excitement. Exactly what I'd expect when somebody lets Gaiman do his own adaptations. He has done pretty badly every time he's tried and yet they keep letting him do it. I mean on paper things are happening, but I guess way too slowly, it's hard to describe. All I know is if there aren't great actors on screen I get really bored. Thankfully there are a ton of them in this show, but sadly I don't think Tom Sturridge can count himself amoung them.

Back to the plot: I don't really like how Lucifer is being an asshole to Dream, seemingly only for assholery's sake, especially at the end there. Where she vows to destroy him. I know Gaiman created him, but from all I've come to expect from DC Lucifer, that seems a bit out of character. Or maybe I'm thinking of a point after more character development...

Also Lucifer should have lost at the "I am a butcher-bacterium"- stage. Sorry, but one bacterium can't do shit. It shouldn't have effected Dream at all. Had she said "I am butcher-bacteria" I would have let it slide, but she said very specifically "a bacterium". And then she should have lost a second time with "anti-life". What kinda cheaty bullshit is that? Is she five? "You chose to be life? Well I am... uuuummm... anti-life! Yeah! Also I'm rubber and you are glue!"

Btw. how does everybody have a gun? Aren't they in the UK?

[NeenerNeener]

5 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

All I know is if there aren't great actors on screen I get really bored. Thankfully there are a ton of them in this show, but sadly I don't think Tom Sturridge can count himself amoung them.

But in this show he's at least pretty. I've never thought he was hot in anything else I've seen, like Sweet Bitter, or Irma Vep, but for some reason here the haircut and cheekbones really work for him. They must be making him really skinny through editing, too.

[starri]

Is it wrong that I thought Choronzon was hot?

[Aulty]

20 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Gwendolin Christie is of course always amazing to see in whatever she is in, but I question that wig. I guess it was supposed to give her an angelic appearence but made her just look weird as hell (pardon the pun). I think they should have gone with a devil who embraced her job and got a haircut that befit it.

I am not familiar with the source material, but I found the devil-scenes awfully lacking. Whether thats Gewn or the script, I can't say. The styling was way off.

[Meredith Quill]

20 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Btw. how does everybody have a gun? Aren't they in the UK?

Dispelling the myth, but guns are permitted in the UK - with a licence and under strict storage rules. Also, one presumes a few illegal guns would be in circulation.

11 hours ago, starri said:

Is it wrong that I thought Choronzon was hot?

No, it just means you have a demon fetish?

[PurpleTentacle]

23 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

Dispelling the myth, but guns are permitted in the UK - with a licence and under strict storage rules. Also, one presumes a few illegal guns would be in circulation.

Just like in most countries. Still, almost nobody has one. Which is why police wear stab proof wests instead of bullet proof wests.

11 hours ago, starri said:

Is it wrong that I thought Choronzon was hot?

He was kinda hot, but I like me demons bulkier.

[Meredith Quill]

On 8/6/2022 at 1:11 PM, PurpleTentacle said:

Just like in most countries. Still, almost nobody has one. Which is why police wear stab proof wests instead of bullet proof wests.

Yep, the vast majority of us do not have one but a small percentage do and most of those are for sport or organised hunts. Also, back in 1926 guns laws were not as tight as they are now, so gun ownership would've been more common in that period, still not commonplace though.

[MissL]

3 hours ago, Aulty said:

I am not familiar with the source material, but I found the devil-scenes awfully lacking. Whether thats Gewn or the script, I can't say. The styling was way off.

Same. I love her but I would have expected more charm, charisma… something MORE from Lucifer Morningstar. And not just because of Tom Ellis although I think he would have been so interesting with darker material (I think I’m one of the few who was disappointed in Lucifer and the tone that show eventually took in the end and my god awful Chloe…but I digress). 
 

Really didn’t get why Lucifer hated the lord of dreams so much except falling into the old “its Lucifer-so Lucifer hates everyone trope which is hard to digest after actually watching Lucifer.  And I said “I am Hope” before Morpheus did so I knew it was coming but guess I don’t know why that was such a deal breaker..plenty of things can kill hope is it just that Lucifer didn’t want to? But isn’t that what Lucifer does? 
I mean all that being said I’m still liking the show. I should say more positive things but  Still have the old television without pity mindset.

oooh forgot to say I’ve enjoyed the winks at the audience between Jenna’s character saying she doesn’t like the royal family and Gwen starting the battle as a Direwolf This tv nerd got a kick out of it.

Edited August 6, 2022 by MissL

[Affogato]

The movie 'Constantine' has Tilda Swinton playing this version of Lucifer, and I think she was perfect in the role. Gwendolyn Christie not so much, but I there are some signs that she is keeping her own counsel and a long game. I did get the impression of a weariness with the machinations of hell and a desire for something more which was very appropriate to the character.

[MissL]

2 hours ago, Affogato said:

The movie 'Constantine' has Tilda Swinton playing this version of Lucifer, and I think she was perfect in the role. Gwendolyn Christie not so much, but I there are some signs that she is keeping her own counsel and a long game. I did get the impression of a weariness with the machinations of hell and a desire for something more which was very appropriate to the character.

Tilda didn’t play Lucifer she was the Angel Gabriel. Peter Sormare was Lucifer. Those were some excellent characterizations for sure.   

[Affogato]

43 minutes ago, MissL said:

Tilda didn’t play Lucifer she was the Angel Gabriel. Peter Sormare was Lucifer. Those were some excellent characterizations for sure.   

oh, right. I'd just remembered it because of the way she looked, I guess. well here's an embarassing moment. Thanks.

Edited August 6, 2022 by Affogato

[thuganomics85]

On paper, Gwendoline Christie seems like a perfect choice for this version of Lucifer Morningstar, but the character ended up being kind of underwhelming this go around.  Maybe it was because we didn't really get a sense of her and why she seemed so hellbent (sorry!) to destroy Morpheus, but it was kind of a disappointment after all of the hype.  Admittedly though, another part of it might be because I was down with the idea of having Tom Ellis reprise the role.  Could have been a fun appearance and I'm confident he would have still been able to give the character a more solum and darker take compared to the version on his own series.

Did like the concept of the battle being more of a roleplaying "my living creature can beat your living creature" game of wits, instead of any kind of physical battle.  Still unsure why "hope" would be such a big blow though.  I feel like Lucifer probably could have found some way to still top it, but it felt like she almost gave up because she was pissed by the whole concept.

Good news is that Morpheus has his mask now!  The bad news is that the ruby rejected him due to whatever John Burgess did to it, and now John has the ruby again instead.  David Thewlis continues to be perfectly unsettling in the role.

[roamyn]

On 8/5/2022 at 10:56 AM, PurpleTentacle said:

I knew Gaiman hated the TV show Lucifer (and for the first few seasons I can understand, it was more of a guilty pleasure)

He hated it so much he narrated an entire episode in S3 (the worst season of all)

Edited August 6, 2022 by roamyn

[Black Knight]

2 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Admittedly though, another part of it might be because I was down with the idea of having Tom Ellis reprise the role.  Could have been a fun appearance and I'm confident he would have still been able to give the character a more solum and darker take compared to the version on his own series.

It sounds fun in theory, but I don't think in practice it would have worked well. You can see how people who watched both shows are already having problems with Sandman's Lucifer characterization being different; imagine how much more cognitive dissonance there would be if it were the same actor playing both Lucifers. People would expect it to be the same Lucifer writing-wise too. I think Sandman really had to go with casting someone else. I thought Christie was good in the role; I just wish they hadn't saddled her with that awful hair. I understand that it's a traditional angel's hairdo, but as someone else suggested upthread, they could easily have had Lucifer decide to wear her hair differently to reflect her break from heaven.

I've been thinking on it and I still don't understand how hope wins. Seems like it could be countered with despair, and despair surely would not be an unknown entity to the ruler of Hell. Maybe there's something in the rules about not countering with a possibility where it works both ways - that is, if the first player suggested despair, countering with hope seems just as acceptable - but in that case we should have heard the rules given.

[Chicago Redshirt]

3 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

On paper, Gwendoline Christie seems like a perfect choice for this version of Lucifer Morningstar, but the character ended up being kind of underwhelming this go around.  Maybe it was because we didn't really get a sense of her and why she seemed so hellbent (sorry!) to destroy Morpheus, but it was kind of a disappointment after all of the hype.  Admittedly though, another part of it might be because I was down with the idea of having Tom Ellis reprise the role.  Could have been a fun appearance and I'm confident he would have still been able to give the character a more solum and darker take compared to the version on his own series.

Did like the concept of the battle being more of a roleplaying "my living creature can beat your living creature" game of wits, instead of any kind of physical battle.  Still unsure why "hope" would be such a big blow though.  I feel like Lucifer probably could have found some way to still top it, but it felt like she almost gave up because she was pissed by the whole concept.

Good news is that Morpheus has his mask now!  The bad news is that the ruby rejected him due to whatever John Burgess did to it, and now John has the ruby again instead.  David Thewlis continues to be perfectly unsettling in the role.

Lucifer wasn't bent on destroying Morpheus. He wanted to enslave Morpheus. Expanding Hell to include the realm that humans spend a third of their lives in seems like a pretty attractive power-up.

If you are sappy enough, there is no despair strong enough to conquer hope. I think it is a nice sentiment in the abstract. But as anybody who has encountered depression or those who live through depression, it's certainly not that simple.

[ombre]

I suspect the real reason why Morpheus won is because, as he noted, lucifer's own world cannot work without hope. Everything else was window-dressing to make clear the importance of the stories we tell ourselves. 

[AnimeMania]

On 8/5/2022 at 10:56 AM, PurpleTentacle said:

Btw. how does everybody have a gun? Aren't they in the UK?

If you are talking about the John Burgess storyline, they are in America where everybody is required by law to have a gun on them at all times (just kidding).

The story seems so straight forward with no twists or turns in the plot. Morpheus just barrels through on a straight course without a plan or thinking to much. Morpheus finally runs into a hiccup with the ruby. Let's hope he has to think first before taking action.

What, Morpheus was in love with someone other than himself, how did that happen?

[Bruinsfan]

9 hours ago, Black Knight said:

It sounds fun in theory, but I don't think in practice it would have worked well. You can see how people who watched both shows are already having problems with Sandman's Lucifer characterization being different; imagine how much more cognitive dissonance there would be if it were the same actor playing both Lucifers. People would expect it to be the same Lucifer writing-wise too. I think Sandman really had to go with casting someone else. I thought Christie was good in the role; I just wish they hadn't saddled her with that awful hair. I understand that it's a traditional angel's hairdo, but as someone else suggested upthread, they could easily have had Lucifer decide to wear her hair differently to reflect her break from heaven.

I've been thinking on it and I still don't understand how hope wins. Seems like it could be countered with despair, and despair surely would not be an unknown entity to the ruler of Hell. Maybe there's something in the rules about not countering with a possibility where it works both ways - that is, if the first player suggested despair, countering with hope seems just as acceptable - but in that case we should have heard the rules given.

I agree about not casting Ellis as Lucifer in this. I think he did an excellent job as his version of the character, but the writing was so far from the depiction in Sandman that it would have been a stretch to credit it to Gaiman had they not also used Mazikeen.  Gwendolyn Christie was perfect for the regal, world-weary version from the source material.

Possibly countering Dream's move by identifying oneself as his sibling would be bad form? In any event, as an abstract concept rather than an emotion felt by individuals, I think the adage "there's always hope" would apply.

[bilgistic]

On 8/6/2022 at 7:16 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

If you are sappy enough, there is no despair strong enough to conquer hope. I think it is a nice sentiment in the abstract. But as anybody who has encountered depression or those who live through depression, it's certainly not that simple.

Yeah, my mind immediately went to depression as the antithesis of hope. I've had clinical depression my entire life. Hope doesn't live here. It might visit very occasionally, but not for long.

Grief is absent of hope, too. There are a number of human conditions devoid of hope—poverty, homelessness, hunger.

So, yeah, it didn't work for me, either. Maybe we're supposed to interpret it as the proverbial "hope" at the bottom of Pandora's box?

Edited August 8, 2022 by bilgistic

[JustHereForFood]

On 8/5/2022 at 4:56 PM, PurpleTentacle said:

I knew Gaiman hated the TV show Lucifer

First time I hear that.

On 8/5/2022 at 4:56 PM, PurpleTentacle said:

Exactly what I'd expect when somebody lets Gaiman do his own adaptations. He has done pretty badly every time he's tried and yet they keep letting him do it. I mean on paper things are happening, but I guess way too slowly, it's hard to describe. 

I don't think this series would have worked if Gaiman wasn't involved. He said himself that he has been rejecting bad adaptations of Sandman for decades, I'm not surprised that he wanted to have creative control.

And his adaptations are great, sometimes even better than the original, IMO (Good Omens, Stardust). I don't think that Good Omens would be so beautifully adapted by anyone else. 

[Morrigan2575]

Is it wrong that I was way more invested in the John/Rosemary stuff that Morphius/Lucifer?

I didn't like Christie's look as Morningstar, wish they would have gone with her long blonde hair than that awful wig. I guess the intention was to appear like a cherub?

Thewlis is a really good actor. 

I liked the look of Mazikeen.

[tennisgurl]

Gwendoline Christie as Lucifer is certainly interesting casting, I think she did well with it even if she isn't exactly what I pictured as Sandman style Lucifer. I love Tom Ellis as Lucifer on his own show, but having him cast here would I think have been too jarring. His version of the character was so different than the Lucifer of the comics it would have felt weird to have him here, either doing his lovable rogue with a heart of gold devil from Lucifer or playing another, darker, version of the character from the comics. It would have felt too much like a casting gimmick. I don't think that Neil hated the show, he did do a voice over as God in one of the season finales, but he was very upfront about how little it had in common with his comic which it was loosely based on, which is certainly true. I love both, but they are extremely different in story and tone, having Tom Ellis here would feel too weird and like a distraction. I really liked their look for Mazikeen.

On 8/5/2022 at 9:56 AM, PurpleTentacle said:

Btw. how does everybody have a gun? Aren't they in the UK?

The parts with John Dee are in New York, last week with Constantine and Dream were in the UK. That was one intense car ride, I was pleasantly surprised that Rosemary and Suzie survived. I like this version of John Dee, he's different than the comic version, who is also long time DC supervillain Doctor Destiny, but he still has a similar vibe. 

I laughed at Lucifer's first form in the poetry slam battle being a Direwolf. Yeah, we see what you did there, show. I thought the ending worked, the idea of hope springing eternal and the need for the stories we tell ourselves, even in Hell, is a major theme of the story, and it harkens back to traditional depictions of Hell, going way to the Devine Comedy. The reason Hell is so cold (as Matthew mentions) is that its far away from the light and warmth of God, and its worst torment is that you have no hope of finding your way to heaven. In Dante's Inferno, they say serval times that the worst part of Hell is the lack of hope that you can ever see heaven. The "punishment" for the first level of Hell, for people who were perfectly good people who just had the misfortune to exist before Jesus, is that they have no hope to reach heaven. You cant kill hope the way you can kill a person or a snake or a universe, as long as one living being exists it can exist along with them. You can lose hope due to depression or being stuck in terrible circumstances, but it can still be found again. There are also a lot of interpretations of Lucifer that, despite embracing being the king of Hell, always longed to be an angel again, which is his punishment. 

I continue to be impressed at how much this adaptation lines up with the comic. There are some changes, like Matthew accompanying Dream to Hell, but its been quick faithful so far to the story and characters. 

[magdalene]

Oh, I am stuck.  I am too chicken to continue.  I do not want to watch the nice lady and her beautiful dog get killed by crazy Remus Lupin.

Edited August 10, 2022 by magdalene

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 8/7/2022 at 3:02 AM, AnimeMania said:

If you are talking about the John Burgess storyline, they are in America where everybody is required by law to have a gun on them at all times (just kidding).

Nope, they were in England.  (Unless you were kidding about the location, too.)

On 8/6/2022 at 5:45 PM, roamyn said:

He hated it so much he narrated an entire episode in S3

As the voice of God!

On 8/6/2022 at 2:16 PM, MissL said:

Tilda didn’t play Lucifer she was the Angel Gabriel. Peter Sormare was Lucifer. Those were some excellent characterizations for sure.

I love that movie.  A very dark version of Constantine, not completely comic-book accurate (Keanu Reeves plays Constantine, and he's not British), but visually stunning.

One thing we seemed to have gained here from the Constantine gender-swap, was the loss of chain-smoking, which I do not miss at all.

[Zuleikha]

I was also underwhelmed by Christie's Lucifer. I don't know how she should have been because it's too long since I read the early graphic novel. But my sense is that she either should have been more seductive/charming or more sinister. I did like the battle and the way they delivered the "I am..." lines, which must have been cheesy as heck on paper.

I saw a theory that Lucifer didn't go with Despair as the killer of Hope because Lucifer needed hope. But I don't think that worked with the way Lucifer seemed rattled by Dream pointing out that Hell can have no suffering without dreams. It seems weird since it's so obvious that despair can kill hope (even though yes, hope can also kill despair). Hope also doesn't seem like a good opposite for anti-life the way Lucifer portrayed it. It was really more like death, and hope does not counter death. I'm wondering if we were supposed to see anti-life as more like despair than death, but if so, I don't think it was successfully communicated.

As a graphic novel reader, the John/Rosemary sequence confused me. It was very different. I didn't like it initially, but I retroactively liked it once I saw the whole thing. I think it held together and made sense for the show's version of John. 

[PurpleTentacle]

On 8/6/2022 at 11:45 PM, roamyn said:

He hated it so much he narrated an entire episode in S3 (the worst season of all)

See, that's an entire new level of hate.

You can certainly hate something and still play the Hollywood game of playing nice, to not get yourself blacklisted.

On 8/9/2022 at 2:16 AM, JustHereForFood said:

And his adaptations are great, sometimes even better than the original, IMO (Good Omens, Stardust).

Good Omens isn't great. It's very good when David Tennant and Micheal Sheen are on screen, since they elevate the material by a lot. All the other storylines just drag and will bore you to sleep.

American Gods was amazing until Gaiman got Bryan Fuller fired as showrunner and took over himself. Afterwards it became an unfocused, boring mess. It was so bad that at some point Ian McShane revolted and made demands of how to improve it or he would quit.

Stardust I haven't seen. Might have to do that at some point, or maybe I better not...

Edited August 10, 2022 by PurpleTentacle

[JustHereForFood]

4 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Good Omens isn't great. It's very good when David Tennant and Micheal Sheen are on screen, since they elevate the material by a lot. All the other storylines just drag and will bore you to sleep.

🤣 We'll have to agree to disagree on that.

[Eliza422]

I'm taking this show slowly, just watching two episodes at a time, not on consecutive days, so I have time to absorb everything in this dense world. I've not read the graphic novel, so I have no preconceived notions of characters or story line. Having said that, I think now after 2 more episodes I'm finally getting a handle on how the story is working (I think? I'm sure there will be more twists). As a noob there was a lot thrown at me.

I really liked this episode, it was a great depiction of hell. I am with others that I hated the wig Gwendolyn was wearing, it was so jarring a look. My biggest concern, since battles between gods is not really something for a human to comprehend, was Rosemary! After the turn of the conversation with John I was just on the edge of my seat worried for her. The actress did a great job - her face, as she realized what was in her car - powerful!
I was so relieved she was OK - although now I'm worried about how she will turn out having the eyeball amulet now, will it turn her into a bad person? I checked IMDB, I don't think she's in any more episodes, but it would be interesting to see what suddenly possessing such a powerful thing would do to a good person. I guess I'll never know.

David Thewlis is genuinely creepy, I'm loving his character. He's actually the first person that is coming across as a true villain (other than maybe Charles Dance in ep1, but I don't think he had much time to work so I can't say he counts to me). I'm excited to see where the show goes.

Edited August 11, 2022 by Eliza422

[quangtran]

On 8/11/2022 at 1:58 AM, PurpleTentacle said:

American Gods was amazing until Gaiman got Bryan Fuller fired as showrunner and took over himself. Afterwards it became an unfocused, boring mess. It was so bad that at some point Ian McShane revolted and made demands of how to improve it or he would quit.

I don't think this is true, because 1) Jesse Alexander was the showrunner of the second season of American Gods and 2) Fuller departed from most of his shows due to creative differences (The Vampire Chronicles, Amazing Stories, American Gods and ST Discovery). 

[Which Tyler]

 

On 8/6/2022 at 1:33 PM, SilverStormm said:

Yep, the vast majority of us do not have one but a small percentage do and most of those are for sport or organised hunts. Also, back in 1926 guns laws were not as tight as they are now, so gun ownership would've been more common in that period, still not commonplace though.

TBF, there would have been a lot of old service revolvers, and even rifles around still in 1962 - sitting away in drawers.

1968 saw the first comprehensive gun laws drawn up (though gun ownership was never a universal right, or particularly common); and 1997 saw the first amnesty for handing weapons in to be decommissioned.

Of course, I absolutely agree that they still wouldn't be commonplace - just commonplace in comparison to current levels (and type of gun, which are now almost entirely shotguns).

On 8/10/2022 at 5:00 AM, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Nope, they were in England.  (Unless you were kidding about the location, too.)

Wait, what?

A] Since when did the British drive on the right hand side of the road?
B] When did the British start putting gas instead of petrol in their cars?
C] When did the British start calling 911 to contact the police?
D] For that matter, exactly where in Britain is "Buffalo, New York" located? - Same question for Mayhew, Minnesota

Edited August 12, 2022 by Which Tyler

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 8/9/2022 at 10:05 AM, tennisgurl said:

I laughed at Lucifer's first form in the poetry slam battle being a Direwolf. Yeah, we see what you did there, show.

Heh. I did not make the connection between Gwendolyn Christie having starred in Game of Thrones, where House Stark's symbol is a dire wolf, and this till you made it.

But it is purely coincidence.

In the graphic novel, a similar battle takes place, except it is between Dream and the demon who bartered for Dream's helmet. (Lucifer is part of a triumvirate ruling Hell in the comic and is just an observer to the the battle). His opening move is a dire wolf.

It may be more than coincidence that the first form is a dire wolf.  Apparently Gaiman originally pitched The Sandman to George R.R. Martin for a short stories series that Martin had, and Martin rejected it. Then Gaiman took it to DC, where the rest is history. So it could be that Gaiman got his familiarity with dire wolves from reading Martin. If so, it is ironic in this version that the symbol of the Honor house is co-opted by the Devil.

[Bruinsfan]

14 hours ago, quangtran said:

I don't think this is true, because 1) Jesse Alexander was the showrunner of the second season of American Gods and 2) Fuller departed from most of his shows due to creative differences (The Vampire Chronicles, Amazing Stories, American Gods and ST Discovery). 

Don't forget Dead Like Me, which was his own creation! I think Wonderfalls and Hannibal are the only shows he's stuck with throughout their run.

[eelpout]

I don't know if it's the characterizarion of Matthew or Oswalt doing the voice (probably the latter), but it's not working for me. Something just seems off. 😐

[SevenStars]

 I loved that Lucifer looked like she wanted to cry when Dream stated that hell power come from those in hell dreaming of heaven. Even Lucifer, while he is ruling hell, he is still dreaming of heaven. 

[Quark]

Slowly catching up on this show,. I thought Lucifer was a hoot and a half. I loved the way she said "hello" when she saw Dream.