S04.E09: Chapter Nine: The Piggyback

[Taryn74]

1 hour ago, Thalia said:

I am rewatching Dear Billy, and was reminded of the letters.

Ha! I had already forgotten the letters existed despite the title of the episode literally referencing them.

Also, holy shiz. Max wrote the letters because she was convinced Vecna was going to kill her. And she was right.

[DrSpaceman73]

9 hours ago, Haleth said:

Wowie!  Wow, wow, wow!  That was fantastic!  I mean, so much simultaneous action!  I was breathless watching everyone in such tense scenes!  Omigosh, poor Eddie (RIP) and poor Max!

I am so impressed with the acting of many of these kids. They made me love them and weep like a baby during emotional scenes. Well done, kids!

Great job all around.  This was like watching a movie, very high quality production values. No skimping, blow that budget!

(I watched this in 2 parts so it didn’t seem overly long or tedious.  I don’t know why it wasn’t split into 2 episodes.  Perhaps that was a mistake.)

As a resident of IN I always wondered where Hawkins is (thought it was north), so when they mentioned Roane County I immediately googled that. Now I know where they are!

I'm confused about what you mean by 'now I know where they are'   its fictional obviously. There is no roane county indiana. Best we know is it's in an 80 mile radius from Indianapolis also mentioned in the last episode. 

It's modeled after roane county Tennessee near oak Ridge national Labs. 

[shrewd.buddha]

On 7/1/2022 at 6:05 PM, toodywoody said:

This was a great set up for next season.

It really was - - but it was so much so that it sorta felt unsatisfying as its own season ending.  It was the story's final battle - stretched out to two hours, with a half hour of conclusion. 
It was impressive to juggle all the locations and actors but I wonder/worry that the producers think that even more is even better .... will the next season have even more characters, locations and split-off groups?

Yes, I'm looking forward to the next season (hopefully without such a long wait). But the producers can't expect everyone to be excited if they just roll out the same formula: big bad appears, groups form to tackle different parts of the attack, the final confrontation comes down to Eleven saving the day with outstretched hand, a trickle of nose blood and a head tilt. 
Eleven is great character (and MBB is a great actor), but this show could benefit from another power player to shake things up a bit. 

Edited July 5, 2022 by shrewd.buddha
grammar

[Clanstarling]

19 hours ago, Redrum said:

Agree. As an asexual myself I really see the signs in Will. Particularly his confusion in not understanding WHAT was different and why he was the same old Will but everyone else was acting like they lost their damn minds. Now I know a lot of people seem really invested in Will being gay so I'm not going to stand in the way of that tide coming in but I will say Will, as an asexual, could very easily love Mike as deeply as he does, without wanting Mike sexually. 

You do make an excellent point. My daughter is ACE, and it was difficult to wrap my mind around at first (understanding asexuality that is, being supportive of our children is a given in our house). But we've had plenty of conversations and I, more or less, understand. She very much loves her best friend while being asexual and has had several disappointments of the Will/El kind.

So I agree that it fits - but I think since asexuals are rarely (ever?) addressed on TV, the intent is definitely going toward Will being gay.

I can understand not wanting the "young gay man experiencing unrequited love" is a trope, but loving a friend who doesn't love you back (in that way), seems to me to be a universal experience, regardless of sexuality.

Edited July 5, 2022 by Clanstarling

[Dev F]

24 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

So I agree that it fits - but I think since asexuals are rarely (ever?) addressed on TV, the intent is definitely going toward Will being gay.

Yeah, plus there's be no particular reason for the writers to keep dropping references to gay historical figures and gay pride symbols if their intent was to suggest that Will is asexual.

But the real reason I'm solidly in the "Will is gay" camp is a narrative one: Will's arc toward self-realization in season 3 begins with him insisting "I'm not gonna fall in love." It wouldn't really make narrative sense to start the arc with him in deep "I'm just a kid who wants to play D&D" denial but also completely self-aware and openly communicative about the thing he's repressing. It'd be like starting a murder mystery with the detective explaining that he already knew who the murderer was. To me, Will's "not gonna fall in love" stance was clearly an element of his repression—the thing he wanted to believe about himself, not the thing that was actually true.

[MaggieG]

I will say these last season and especially these last 2 episodes had great music. From Separate Ways, to Eddie slaying Master of Puppets to the good use of Running up that Hill throughout, it was all just really good.

Sigh, Eddie. I liked him a lot so I'm sad he won't be part of the gang next season. This show is always good at adding new characters that mix well with the OG's. I cracked up at the entire caper of Eddie wearing the Michael Myers mask, to hotwiring the camper, to Steve's face when Eddie said he would be driving, the Steve tearing out of there and everyone bouncing around in the back. 

I also loved the moments between Eddie and Dustin, especially when he told Dustin to never change.

[benteen]

The character they did a real disservice to was Joyce. In Season 1, it's Joyce's devotion and overprotectiveness of Will is what drove her to find him. This season, she has no clue that Will is troubled, that El is having problems at school and that Jonathan is a stoner. She leaves them behind on a lark to go to the USSR to find a guy she sorta dated. Showed hardly any concern about what might be happening to her kids while she was gone.

[MaggieG]

I'm also super happy that Joyce and Hopper kissed but I couldn't help but wonder when Hopper last brushed his teeth or showered. 

[DrSpaceman73]

8 minutes ago, MaggieG said:

I'm also super happy that Joyce and Hopper kissed but I couldn't help but wonder when Hopper last brushed his teeth or showered. 

Yes, exactly!

[moonb]

I had the same thoughts about that pizza van full of teenagers after the "2 days later" jump. Particularly since they all seem to like multiple layers of clothing. 

[Taryn74]

1 hour ago, MaggieG said:

I'm also super happy that Joyce and Hopper kissed but I couldn't help but wonder when Hopper last brushed his teeth or showered. 

Not to mention, hadn't they just crawled through a sewer? A change of clothes doesn't help THAT much.

[janie jones]

When they were cleaning up the cabin, I could help but think how awful everyone there must smell.

[Haleth]

8 hours ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

I'm confused about what you mean by 'now I know where they are'   its fictional obviously.

When I googled it I saw something that said it's between Spencer and Evansville.  Of course I can't find it now, but that location is good enough for me.

[Redrum]

4 hours ago, Dev F said:

Yeah, plus there's be no particular reason for the writers to keep dropping references to gay historical figures and gay pride symbols if their intent was to suggest that Will is asexual.

Speaking as a writer, this is called a fake out. You don't really want to commit just yet so you broadly hint and if the story goes there, then you look super clever as the writer, and if not, you still look good for being inclusive and hinting at it. My very cynical inner me notes that while this is set in the 1980s, its being produced in 2022. There's no need to *drop references*. Will can say "I like boys." It doesn't have to be to another character. He could be writing in a diary or confessing it to his shrink, or even actually talking to his rather understanding mom who was cool about the whole "I was sucked into a different, evil dimension" thing.

As an asexual, I will tell you that most people assume someone asexual is gay. Or ill in some way. I don't know how many gay friends I had in the mid 1990s and 2000s gave me the "are you closeted or just in denial about being a lesbian?" talk that was usually followed up with "have you seen a doctor?"

Now I happen to agree that Will is likely to be outed as gay on the show simply because its a much easier storyline and the Duffers are clever but also somewhat cliche at times. Making the artistic quiet smart kid the gay one is certainly cliche, much like how the school jock has to be a raging violent idiot. I just think its unfortunate they're seeming to go with the cliche of the gay guy in love with his best friend who is so straight he can't even imagine it. The more I hear that season five is supposed to bring full circle for Will, the more I think Will dies to save them all, but especially Mike. 

[Eliza422]

I was sad that Eddie Munson died, but I wasn't surprised by it. I didn't get emotional during the death scene (which is unusual for me, I usually cry at the drop of a hat). However, I *did* cry when Dustin was talking to Eddie's uncle - *his* speech about Eddie and *his* crying is what got me going!

Overall though I'm just exhausted from such long episodes, I feel like they keep rehashing El's story over and over again, and I don't feel like we learn anything new about her. I also *hated* the time suck that was the Russia storyline...ugh....

I hope that next season is just more focused. I think shorter episodes but keeping the number to the same (8 - 10 max) would improve the show immensely. They have lots of good material - a good range of characters, 4 seasons now of back story about the upside down, the monsters and all that, it could just be a non-stop roller coaster with some stops to catch our breath. Don't add new characters, for dog's sake I don't need to see El be a sadsack anymore, own your shit girl!, just have them battling Vecna and that's it. I know I'm dreaming, but oh well!

[Hotel Snarker]

4 hours ago, MaggieG said:

I will say these last season and especially these last 2 episodes had great music. From Separate Ways, to Eddie slaying Master of Puppets to the good use of Running up that Hill throughout, it was all just really good.

Sigh, Eddie. I liked him a lot so I'm sad he won't be part of the gang next season. This show is always good at adding new characters that mix well with the OG's. I cracked up at the entire caper of Eddie wearing the Michael Myers mask, to hotwiring the camper, to Steve's face when Eddie said he would be driving, the Steve tearing out of there and everyone bouncing around in the back. 

I also loved the moments between Eddie and Dustin, especially when he told Dustin to never change.

Eddie killed it with that badass Master of Puppets solo! I’m so devastated that we lost him. The Duffers have a trope of introducing new characters and killing them off in the same season. It’s kinda getting repetitive at this point…

I’m glad my man Steve made it out fine!

[DrSpaceman73]

46 minutes ago, Haleth said:

When I googled it I saw something that said it's between Spencer and Evansville.  Of course I can't find it now, but that location is good enough for me.

Yeah that is just speculation.  

[Mediocre Gatsby]

On 7/3/2022 at 4:23 PM, Vella said:

The Duffers clearly need someone to steer the ship. Someone to say "cut this down" or "cut this completely" or "bring them back together sooner" or "this is taking too long".

They need to go back to the tightness and control of Season 1 and 2. Season 3 is where things started to get out of hand, and it's just gotten worse with Season 4.

Oh my gosh, I couldn't agree with this more. The show reminds me of authors who get hugely popular and are edited less and less. "The Stand" is my favorite Stephen King book, and I thought I'd love the "complete and uncut" version. But I didn't -- it just made me realize what a great job the original editor had done. 

Netflix has little incentive in reining in the Duffers, since more content takes up more time. 

[Hava]

I am surprised that I am the only one who is not a fan of El's character. I do not dislike her, but, ever since season 2, I have found her story to be repetitive. It's just not interesting to me to see her either abused or staring at something and screaming at it. 

Having said that, the Mike speech and Hopper reunion fell completely flat for me. 

It's frustrating that the show continues to put focus on these characters while killing a character like Eddie who breathed new life into the show. 

Edited July 6, 2022 by Hava

[benteen]

Yes, El's story is repetitive and I had no interest I  seeing her back in the lab, especially for multiple episodes  

[shrewd.buddha]

A lot happened in the final episode, but I was still left wondering ..

• Whatever happened to the Hawkins' police force? And wouldn't the National Guard be showing up to this level of disaster?
• Whatever happened to the Army guys gunning for Eleven? Did they just decide to take a break?  Was the pizza van too difficult to follow?
• Whatever happened to Nancy's mission to be the next Lois Lane, ace reporter? Wouldn't the residents of Hawkins benefit from someone actually reporting the truth, no matter how unbelievable it seemed?  Lives could have been saved, Eddie could be vindicated instead of vilified. 

[bunnyblue]

While rewatching the episode, I caught a line from Argyle I'd missed: "I get we gotta hide Supergirl, but this isn't exactly the Fortress of Solitude." Huh, so the reason the gang returned to Hopper's cabin and cleaned it up is because El's going to hide there from the military (presumably). How...unoriginal. I hope she doesn't spend most of season 5 hiding in the cabin like she did in season 2 & 3. 

Was that snow or ash falling from the sky at the end? Holly said snow but it looked like ash to me.

[Sailorgirl26]

It was the Upside Down "snow" -- whatever the particles are that float through the air in the Upside Down are now in the Rightside Up. 

Edited July 6, 2022 by Sailorgirl26

[Dev F]

7 hours ago, benteen said:

The character they did a real disservice to was Joyce. In Season 1, it's Joyce's devotion and overprotectiveness of Will is what drove her to find him. This season, she has no clue that Will is troubled, that El is having problems at school and that Jonathan is a stoner. She leaves them behind on a lark to go to the USSR to find a guy she sorta dated. Showed hardly any concern about what might be happening to her kids while she was gone.

It is kind of a weird choice for Joyce, and I do wish she'd been more in the orbit of her kids, but I'm starting to realize that she does still have a character arc that reaches beyond her feelings for Hopper, strange and disconnected though her story may have been.

Someone on Reddit pointed out (and I unfortunately can't find the post now, probably because it's buried in one of Reddit's thousand-some-post episode threads) that in the last episode, we very specifically see a flashback to Bob's death, with Joyce standing by in horror as a demodog pins him on the ground and then tears him apart. Then later we see Hopper pinned on the ground by a demogorgon in exactly the same way—only this time Joyce has grabbed a cattle prod and come to Hop's aid, and she's able to save him.

And I realized, this is almost an exact match for Max's situation with Billy—Joyce is tormented with guilt over having stood there and watched while Bob dies—but unlike Max, Joyce gets a chance to replay that moment and get it right this time. It's what a lot of the prison storyline is about, I think: Yes, life is often about finding yourself back in the same hell over and over again, but that means you have a chance not to make the same mistakes.

Which gives new meaning to Bob's death, because his sacrifice gave Joyce the "proper thump" (to borrow a term from Steve's big speech to Nancy along similar lines) she needed to know what she had to do to save Hopper's life.

[Emily Thrace]

8 hours ago, benteen said:

The character they did a real disservice to was Joyce. In Season 1, it's Joyce's devotion and overprotectiveness of Will is what drove her to find him. This season, she has no clue that Will is troubled, that El is having problems at school and that Jonathan is a stoner. She leaves them behind on a lark to go to the USSR to find a guy she sorta dated. Showed hardly any concern about what might be happening to her kids while she was gone.

Yeah I'll give her a pass on not contacting the boys since it was really only the one day and then she spent the rest of the time running for her life. I don't think we saw enough to say how much Joyce actually knew about Angela and the whole school situation. Its entirely possible she knew a fair but and it just wasn't addressed. The one teacher did say they would need to talk after break so its possible the school hadn't contacted her about and El was lying to Joyce like she did Mike. 

Not noticing what was up with Jonathan was a bit egregious though especially since Joyce is a former flower child who probably smoked a fair bit of weed herself back in the sixties. I assumed for the first couple episodes that Joyce knew what Jonathan was up but realized its harmless and so is letting him get away with it. (Much like his sleepovers with Nancy last year.) The dinner scene make it seems like she is clueless though which does seem out of character.

[nokat]

1 hour ago, bunnyblue said:

While rewatching the episode, I caught a line from Argyle I'd missed: "I get we gotta hide Supergirl, but this isn't exactly the Fortress of Solitude." Huh, so the reason the gang returned to Hopper's cabin and cleaned it up is because El's going to hide there from the military (presumably). How...unoriginal. I hope she doesn't spend most of season 5 hiding in the cabin like she did in season 2 & 3. 

Was that snow or ash falling from the sky at the end? Holly said snow but it looked like ash to me.

Yes, the upside down is in Hawkins. Remember El sees the edge of dead plants.

Hopper's cabin was for the reunion scenes, which I enjoyed.

3 hours ago, Mediocre Gatsby said:

Oh my gosh, I couldn't agree with this more. The show reminds me of authors who get hugely popular and are edited less and less. "The Stand" is my favorite Stephen King book, and I thought I'd love the "complete and uncut" version. But I didn't -- it just made me realize what a great job the original editor had done. 

Netflix has little incentive in reining in the Duffers, since more content takes up more time. 

I couldn't help but think of Game of Thrones. Way too much leeway and not enough story telling.

[HoopersWhiKnight]

The entire Stranger Things Fandom after watching Volume 2

https://youtu.be/R6PgPBQi0mQ.   🥲

[Snow Fairy]

One thing that bothered me was that in the finale we had a team in Russia, team in California and team in Hawkins. And it was night in all of those places.

At least in Russia it should be different I think

[Clanstarling]

2 hours ago, Snow Fairy said:

One thing that bothered me was that in the finale we had a team in Russia, team in California and team in Hawkins. And it was night in all of those places.

At least in Russia it should be different I think

I see that so often on shows that don't even have different time zones - it's dark when it should be light, and vice versa. Keeping track of all that should be simple in a regular show, but in a show like this it's a very difficult job.

My take on it (for sanity's sake) is that the experiences are not actually taking place at the same time. (but I think that went out the window in this episode).

[Nashville]

I loved everything about Eddie but his character’s name; every time I heard or read a reference to “Eddie Munson” my brain would immediately transgarble that to “Eddie Munster”, and chaos would then immediately ensue.

On 7/3/2022 at 11:19 AM, MysteryMavin said:

As I was watching the finale, the thought came to me that the main character who will die in Season Five will be Eleven.

I just see her sacrificing herself to finally bring down Vecna (who she sort of created), protect her friends, bring Max back from wherever she is, and save the world.  

Eleven is the one character who is truly different and "outside" of the normal world (as was Henry/One/Vecna) and I see them as the final conflict endgame, where both must die to return "reality" to the real world. Eleven has tried to destroy Vecna (in various forms) several times, and only succeeded in slowing him down or locking him away for a while, so will it take her sacrificing her life to totally eliminate him as a threat?

I don't really want this to happen, but I would not be surprised if it does. 

I see El as  having strong potential sacrifice vibes, but not necessarily in a lethal sense - more like the show pulling an Ellcrys on her and making El the Eternal Guardian of the Gateway to the Upside-Down or some such shit.  This would hit several checkboxes in the show’s “commercially attractive” punchdown list:

• El isn’t  dead, just kind of off-to-the-side absent for the time being - so no hordes of mouth-frothing fankids screaming for blood because a major character got offed.
• No more worrying about writing for/around El trying to conform to a societal norm with which she was never equipped to deal.
• Always potential to pull El back into the story line, should TPTB’s collective bank accounts dictate the need for such.

On 7/3/2022 at 5:45 PM, Racj82 said:

I was perplexed by MIke's mom. She should have been thrilled her son was out of Hawkins and leaving herself with her family. Get the fuck out!

And be left pretty much all alone in dealing with Mike’s dad, with nobody else around to distract him?  Are you kidding???  🤣
 

17 hours ago, Mediocre Gatsby said:

"The Stand" is my favorite Stephen King book, and I thought I'd love the "complete and uncut" version. But I didn't -- it just made me realize what a great job the original editor had done. 

THANK you.  100% agreement.

[Kel Varnsen]

12 minutes ago, Nashville said:

loved everything about Eddie but his character’s name; every time I heard or read a reference to “Eddie Munson” my brain would immediately transgarble that to “Eddie Munster”, and chaos would then immediately ensue.

I kept thinking of Roy Munson, Woody Harrelson's character from the movie Kingpin. So at least Eddie never lost his hand.

[Clanstarling]

13 minutes ago, Nashville said:

I loved everything about Eddie but his character’s name; every time I heard or read a reference to “Eddie Munson” my brain would immediately transgarble that to “Eddie Munster”, and chaos would then immediately ensue.

...

THANK you.  100% agreement.

I knew there was a reason Eddie's full name bugged me, I just couldn't place it.

I, on the other hand, prefer the uncut version. There are characters who make more sense to me because of the uncut version. (btw, it was cut not because of editing, but because the publisher didn't want a book with that many pages).

[Perfect Xero]

I think they've established that the upside down creatures don't like heat, which explains why they wouldn't be pouring out into Hawkins in Spring/Summer.

On 7/2/2022 at 11:25 AM, Cranberry said:

But then El wouldn't have been able to piggyback in to (attempt to) kill him before he simply selected a different/unknown fourth victim and used them to open the final gate, right?

Maybe? That's the conclusion the gang arrived at, but we don't really have any idea how it works. Which may have been something Vecna goaded them into when he taunted Nancy.

Why this ritual? Why these victims? Do they need to be teens suffering from guilt or is that just Vecna's preference? Does he need to do the long mind games first, or is he just doing that because he wants to?

It's possible that there was something special about the victims and that he needed them specifically to open the gates, in which case they played directly into his hands by using Max as bait.

I feel like the whole curse/ritual part was under explained/investigated for such a key part of the plot.

In D&D there'd be some ancient magical text to explain things and how Vecna figured out the ritual, but here it's apparently just ... "I dunno, he's using his science powers, and he's doing it this way because it's his jam, and he knows it's going to take exactly 4 because, uh ... yeah."

[SoWindsor]

I missed what happened with Max and Billy. Was she really happy he died? 

[Racj82]

24 minutes ago, SoWindsor said:

I missed what happened with Max and Billy. Was she really happy he died? 

She was relieved because he was an asshole which helped create the guilt within her.

[blueray]

30 minutes ago, SoWindsor said:

I missed what happened with Max and Billy. Was she really happy he died? 

Part of her was as he was so abusive toward her (and others). However, she knows he died saving her (and her friends). She is morning the lose of a relationship they didn't have but now can never have. She knows he may have eventually grown up and become less of a dick, but now she will never know. It makes a lot of sense that she feels very conflicted. 

Edited July 6, 2022 by blueray

[Dev F]

3 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

In D&D there'd be some ancient magical text to explain things and how Vecna figured out the ritual, but here it's apparently just ... "I dunno, he's using his science powers, and he's doing it this way because it's his jam, and he knows it's going to take exactly 4 because, uh ... yeah."

It's the "exactly 4" part that baffles me. How could he possibly know exactly how many gates would blow apart the barrier when he'd never opened a gate before? You can't even chalk it up to some sort of precise interdimensional geometry, since the gates were all placed seemingly at random! I mean, I guess it's possible that Vecna led Fred away from Chrissy's murder site before killing him, but Max was originally supposed to be the third victim at the cemetery and instead Patrick was killed third at Lover's Lake, and Max died at a different place of her own choosing.

[Emily Thrace]

3 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

I think they've established that the upside down creatures don't like heat, which explains why they wouldn't be pouring out into Hawkins in Spring/Summer.

Maybe? That's the conclusion the gang arrived at, but we don't really have any idea how it works. Which may have been something Vecna goaded them into when he taunted Nancy.

Why this ritual? Why these victims? Do they need to be teens suffering from guilt or is that just Vecna's preference? Does he need to do the long mind games first, or is he just doing that because he wants to?

It's possible that there was something special about the victims and that he needed them specifically to open the gates, in which case they played directly into his hands by using Max as bait.

I feel like the whole curse/ritual part was under explained/investigated for such a key part of the plot.

In D&D there'd be some ancient magical text to explain things and how Vecna figured out the ritual, but here it's apparently just ... "I dunno, he's using his science powers, and he's doing it this way because it's his jam, and he knows it's going to take exactly 4 because, uh ... yeah."

My theory is that the kids themselves didn't matter we did see him pick the third victim he did seem to consider a couple of adults first. I think he sees younger people as easier to exploit. I also suspect he is fairly emotionally immature from growing up in a lab and he probably relates to younger people more easily in general.

I don't really care about the exact mechanics behind the upside down I think the mystery is better. I watch the show for the characters. I can see Henry/One/Vecna experimenting with his powers and having an idea of the power he would need to open a gate. It does raise the question of scale and his powers in contrast to El' s though. She can open a gate fairly easily. So does that means she is stronger than him overall? Or just better at that particular skill? More questions for next season.

[Snow Fairy]

5 hours ago, Dev F said:

It's the "exactly 4" part that baffles me. How could he possibly know exactly how many gates would blow apart the barrier when he'd never opened a gate before? You can't even chalk it up to some sort of precise interdimensional geometry, since the gates were all placed seemingly at random! I mean, I guess it's possible that Vecna led Fred away from Chrissy's murder site before killing him, but Max was originally supposed to be the third victim at the cemetery and instead Patrick was killed third at Lover's Lake, and Max died at a different place of her own choosing.

I think it has something to do with the four portals - when you connect them diagonally there is a cross an in the middle of X is Henry's house and the attic.

That's how I saw it in one of the scenes

Oh wait, but yes, Max was killed in his house so...there goes my theory

Edited July 7, 2022 by Snow Fairy

[shrewd.buddha]

On 7/4/2022 at 11:49 AM, iMonrey said:

We are left on a big cliff-hanger this time around, and an additional season will now just feel like Season 4 Part 2. 

It seems to me that Season 5 will have to be like the last Harry Potter movies - - there can be no more 'normal lives'. 
Which is a shame, since the appeal the show was nerdy kids living their lives in the 80's.
Now, there will probably be no more school, the kids are infamous thanks to everyone having seen the Hellfire club photo, the basketball captain is dead/missing,  Hawkins is basically destroyed and the townspeople may still think there is a serial killer somewhere out there. 

I do hope they manage to put some fun into the final season and not have it be all about the battle to defeat Vecna/One/Henry.

[Redrum]

11 hours ago, Emily Thrace said:

My theory is that the kids themselves didn't matter we did see him pick the third victim he did seem to consider a couple of adults first. I think he sees younger people as easier to exploit. I also suspect he is fairly emotionally immature from growing up in a lab and he probably relates to younger people more easily in general.

I'm good with this except for one thing. If the victims themselves really don't matter, why wouldn't he just use Nanci who fit all of his qualifications, and open the portals earlier without El interfering?

[Dev F]

2 minutes ago, Redrum said:

I'm good with this except for one thing. If the victims themselves really don't matter, why wouldn't he just use Nanci who fit all of his qualifications, and open the portals earlier without El interfering?

Does Nancy fit his qualifications? She's got this one horrible thing in her past, but she's otherwise well-adjusted and pretty happy.

It was easier to imagine him targeting Nancy when we didn't know that Venca had an immediate goal in mind for which he only needed four victims. Nancy is traumatized, but probably not top-four traumatized.

[Redrum]

Just now, Dev F said:

Does Nancy fit his qualifications? She's got this one horrible thing in her past, but she's otherwise well-adjusted and pretty happy.

She feels guilty about Barb dying because she needed to fuck Steve that one time. Chrissy. Fred, and Max didn't seem to have more than one issue causing a problem - Chrissy didn't seem to have even killed anyone even on accident. 

[Dev F]

7 minutes ago, Redrum said:

She feels guilty about Barb dying because she needed to fuck Steve that one time. Chrissy. Fred, and Max didn't seem to have more than one issue causing a problem - Chrissy didn't seem to have even killed anyone even on accident. 

I don't think it's about the absolute badness of the offense, it's about how much trauma the victim is repressing. Chrissy hasn't killed anyone, but she's abused and bulimic and wrestling with both those issues on a daily basis, so it makes sense that she's more of a live wire than Nancy, who worked through a lot of her Barb issues in season 2 and seems to only occasionally flash back to that trauma.

Indeed, that's what Vecna torments her with -- the fact that she doesn't seem preoccupied by Barb's death anymore. "Do you remember what you did, Nancy? Or have you already forgotten?"

[Redrum]

Maybe. I just find it hard to believe that Max, Fred, Chrissy and Random Jock Who's Tale of Woe We Never heard are the most tortured souls in Hawkins. 

[Clanstarling]

13 hours ago, Dev F said:

It's the "exactly 4" part that baffles me.

I tied it to the four directions (North, South, East and West), which have some sway in magic, as I recall.

34 minutes ago, Redrum said:

Maybe. I just find it hard to believe that Max, Fred, Chrissy and Random Jock Who's Tale of Woe We Never heard are the most tortured souls in Hawkins. 

I don't think they're the most tortured, just the easiest to manipulate. After killing his family, One/Vecna spent years with kids, so he's very comfortable and familiar with them. Or maybe, since El blasted him into the Upside Down, he just has a grudge against kids.

[Redrum]

1 minute ago, Clanstarling said:

don't think they're the most tortured, just the easiest to manipulate. After killing his family, One/Vecna spent years with kids, so he's very comfortable and familiar with them. Or maybe, since El blasted him into the Upside Down, he just has a grudge against kids.

I get it, I do.... but clearly Max wasn't that easy to manipulate since she escaped, and Nanci was right there and the gates could have been opened without all the burning and fighting with El....

[Clanstarling]

28 minutes ago, Redrum said:

I get it, I do.... but clearly Max wasn't that easy to manipulate since she escaped, and Nanci was right there and the gates could have been opened without all the burning and fighting with El....

Fair point.

[Dev F]

45 minutes ago, Redrum said:

I get it, I do.... but clearly Max wasn't that easy to manipulate since she escaped, and Nanci was right there and the gates could have been opened without all the burning and fighting with El....

Well, there are two separate issues here. First, is it plausible that the four victims are the most traumatized people in Hawkins? I dunno, maybe not; it looks like Vecna just browsed around and found four people who fit the bill, so it seems likely that there are other people with really bad trauma that he didn't happen to stumble upon. But since he picked those four from a bunch of other people whose pain he also sensed, we can at least say he picked them because they were sufficiently traumatized for his purposes, and that the other options presumably were not as fitting.

Which leads to the second question: Do we have to assume that Nancy is sufficiently traumatized that she could've served as a replacement sacrifice? And I don't think we have any reason to assume that. As I mentioned, Vecna was obviously assessing some property that his chosen victims possessed and other possibilities didn't, and considering he specifically called out Nancy for not being as traumatized as he thought she should be, it seems reasonable to assume that Nancy's trauma would likewise not have worked for him.

[Redrum]

I mean, Nancy is an example. Vecna has all of Hawkins to choose from and he can't find a sub for Max?

I get your point and I accept that Nancy wasn't taken because the entire point of taking Nancy was for Vecna to reveal his backstory and then return her to the kiddies so she could spill, but Nancy seems as shook up over Barbara and has a whole lotta other trauma as well. If its about opening the gates as quickly as possible why not sub her in? Or find someone else? Hell, Eddie seemed pretty traumatized by the death of Chrissy and the Jock Kid... why not use him?

And intellectually, I know why - the scene of Nancy and Vecna exists to reveal the backstory and they weren't thinking of how dumb it looks that Vecna could have just used her to open the gate right then. It didn't appear that Vecna had to use specific victims.  Thats the problem, really.