Keep Sweet: Pray And Obey - General Discussion

[peachmangosteen]

[Scarlett45]

On 6/5/2022 at 5:29 PM, peachmangosteen said:

I just added this to my list. Will report back. 

[Pepper Mostly]

Binged the whole thing yesterday. Those poor women. What a nightmare. 

[OtterMommy]

I've only watched one episode so far, but I recognize some of the women from reading their memoirs in the past and I'm appreciating hearing even more from their point of view.

[Darian]

That was gutting, and I thought I knew so much of it already. And it's just chilling how many other Warren Jeffs and Zions are still out there. Because there were so many, even women, who were still true believers. I've been watching way too many culty things lately. I just seethe with hatred for the monsters who exploit others, especially children. Grateful for the people who brought Jeffs to justice, and have special admiration for the victims who spoke up. My heart broke for Ruby, who got out and then the man she loved, who thought he was doing the right thing (finally) put her right back into it. 

[laurakaye]

I've only watched the first episode, and I think I need to pace myself because while looking at Warren Jeffs is terrifying enough, listening to him speak is the literal stuff of nightmares.  That said, I can understand his ability to basically hypnotize his followers with his manner of speaking - but wow, it makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.  

I am especially appreciating the background information from his brother, and how he came to be the portrait of pure evil.

[LilyD]

I thought I knew about the FLDS but it turns out it's even worse than I imagined. As Laurakaye said; that man became the portrait of pure Evil. 

Too many people simply don't understand what a cult is. Those people should watch this documentary; How you're brainwashed or raised to believe everything you are told. Those people don't run because it's the only life and truth they know. If they know anything about the outside world, it's how bad we are. We're sinners and dangerous and they are God's chosen people,  so they'll stay, no matter how awful their lives may be. It's unbelievably scary to realise how much power one single man can hold over others.

[Avaleigh]

On 6/9/2022 at 11:53 AM, OtterMommy said:

I've only watched one episode so far, but I recognize some of the women from reading their memoirs in the past and I'm appreciating hearing even more from their point of view.

I'm familiar with the stories of Elissa, Rebecca and Ruby and have seen interviews of Elissa and Rebecca, but this is the first time I think I've heard Ruby speak. Their stories are all heartbreaking but hearing about how Ruby was taken back after leaving and being forced to have six kids by the time she was 24 is so sad and horrifying I had to take a break from watching the remaining two episodes. 

Warren's behavior is so extra mile terrible that it seems like it's beyond simply being a part of a culture that treats women as though they're something less than human. He just seems like he was a sicko from the jump and became extra creepy and cruel once he finally had the power to indulge in whatever he wanted. Fundamentalist LDS have some of the most disgusting characters I've ever read about and Warren is one of the absolute worst. Just an evil slimeball from his teenage years to his current incarceration. How can he still have so many followers? Even with a lack of information to what's going on in the outside world he's done enough that current members know about where you'd think they'd be disillusioned with the idea of him being their leader. (Also, you'd think that another powerful man in the community would be looking to takeover.)

Interesting that they gave a little side note about Rulon Allred and his murder. This series attributes it to Rulon being too modern but that isn't really addressing the entire picture. Maybe this series just didn't have time to dip into the whole crazy Lebaron saga. Netflix people, if you're reading this, please do one of these docs on the Lebaron clan. It has everything that a true crime lover could want. 

[MrsKravitz]

18 hours ago, laurakaye said:

I've only watched the first episode, and I think I need to pace myself because while looking at Warren Jeffs is terrifying enough, listening to him speak is the literal stuff of nightmares.  That said, I can understand his ability to basically hypnotize his followers with his manner of speaking - but wow, it makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.  

I am especially appreciating the background information from his brother, and how he came to be the portrait of pure evil.

I was waiting for someone in the documentary to mention his voice. He really does sound like he’s trying to hypnotize them. 
 

Edit: I may have watched and read too much about Jeffs and the FLDS because I don’t think I learned anything new.  

Edited June 11, 2022 by MrsKravitz
Adding a thought

[configdotsys]

I've watched and read so much on these people that I didn't learn anything new, but it is a situation in which you cannot look away.

There was a scene in which an older woman said she had never heard of very young girls being married and in the next frame was a pic of her after having delivered a baby, the mother of whom looked to be about 12. I get the whole idea that these people are brainwashed at birth, but if you deny something is happening, then you know it's wrong. If this is your belief system, then own it. Say nothing but outright lying elevates you from victim to someone who is aiding and abetting child rape.

Warren Jeffs, raped a 12 year old girl on a bed in the "church" in front of the congregation and recorded the audio of it, probably many times. They did not include in this program (unless I missed it) the part of the audio in which the little girl says "Thank you" in answer to some question he asked her while he was doing that. I cannot get that out of my mind. I don't care what your wiring is, you cannot possibly be unaware that that is beyond wrong and claim you don't know any better. They prep their daughters for this life and have no reaction when they cry and beg and plead not to be handed off at 12 to some 60 year old pervert. 

[Avaleigh]

4 hours ago, configdotsys said:

 Warren Jeffs, raped a 12 year old girl on a bed in the "church" in front of the congregation and recorded the audio of it, probably many times. They did not include in this program (unless I missed it) the part of the audio in which the little girl says "Thank you" in answer to some question he asked her while he was doing that. I cannot get that out of my mind. I don't care what your wiring is, you cannot possibly be unaware that that is beyond wrong and claim you don't know any better. They prep their daughters for this life and have no reaction when they cry and beg and plead not to be handed off at 12 to some 60 year old pervert.

I'm not sure that I learned anything new either exactly, it was more like a refresher course on FLDS horror stories. One thing that I was reminded about was that Elissa and Ruby were both married to younger men but it didn't make their situations any better because both girls were married off against their will and were too young to be able to consent in any case. It's not only about young girls being married to men old enough to be their grandfathers or even great-grandfathers. It's about girls (and adult women) being forced into situations where they are abused on a daily basis. 

Another thing that I wanted to comment on was Elissa Wall's father. What is wrong with this man that he converted and roped his family into this situation? He was educated, he had a successful business, he wasn't brainwashed from babyhood that it's either polygamy or hell, he seems to have had a happy marriage--why couldn't that be enough? Even if he was simply swayed by keeping the original word of the LDS faith, why did he have to jump into the FLDS group specifically? To me it looks like he thought this would be the best/easiest way to get more wives and was disappointed that he wasn't treated the same way as a guy like Fred Jessop who had more than a dozen wives. 

Being totally cool with his daughter being made a wife to an 86 year old man is so wrong and sick. He completely failed his daughters as a father and I'm not sure if his family even sees it that way. Warren is obviously the worst person in this equation but I'm not letting the father off the hook here. He gave Rebecca over to be the aging prophet's wife because he thought he would score points with the man who would allow him to get another wife. 

On top of all that, once he got kicked out he just wanted to be back in the fold even though they treated him like shit. My personal opinion is that the group never really accepted him as one of them. They just permitted him to join because they wanted access to his daughters (and his money). If he'd been a Jessop or a Barlow I feel like he might not have been kicked to the curb as easily.

Last point, I thought it was interesting that Joe's obedience in bringing Ruby back to the group didn't stop Warren from kicking him out. Considering how Warren seemed to reward the ones who did everything he said, I wonder what made him decide that Joe needed to be run off to live the life of a 'lost boy'? 

My speculation was that he didn't like that Ruby was attracted to Joe and wanted to punish Joe for it. It seems like Warren went out his way to keep people from matches that would give them any happiness. Like, if Elissa had been happy to marry her 19 year old cousin he would have suddenly changed his mind and had her marry some other dude.

[OtterMommy]

13 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

Another thing that I wanted to comment on was Elissa Wall's father. What is wrong with this man that he converted and roped his family into this situation? He was educated, he had a successful business, he wasn't brainwashed from babyhood that it's either polygamy or hell, he seems to have had a happy marriage--why couldn't that be enough? Even if he was simply swayed by keeping the original word of the LDS faith, why did he have to jump into the FLDS group specifically? To me it looks like he thought this would be the best/easiest way to get more wives and was disappointed that he wasn't treated the same way as a guy like Fred Jessop who had more than a dozen wives. 

I remember being mystified by this when I read Elyssa's memoir (which is excellent, by the way).  It didn't seem like the prospect of having multiple wives was the draw for him because he was basically forced to take a second wife and, now, is still with his first wife--who I'm assuming couldn't be "reassigned" as they were legally married?  Also, was he one of the men kicked out in the purge that Warren did? (ETA: Am I remembering correctly that his first wife was raised in the FLDS?  Maybe that is why he converted?)

I was surprised to learn that Elyssa moved back to Short Creek, although I can kind of understand why.  I think that is something that happened after her memoir was published?  It's been years since I read it, so I don't quite remember.

[Avaleigh]

1 hour ago, OtterMommy said:

I remember being mystified by this when I read Elyssa's memoir (which is excellent, by the way).  It didn't seem like the prospect of having multiple wives was the draw for him because he was basically forced to take a second wife and, now, is still with his first wife--who I'm assuming couldn't be "reassigned" as they were legally married?  Also, was he one of the men kicked out in the purge that Warren did? (ETA: Am I remembering correctly that his first wife was raised in the FLDS?  Maybe that is why he converted?)

I was surprised to learn that Elyssa moved back to Short Creek, although I can kind of understand why.  I think that is something that happened after her memoir was published?  It's been years since I read it, so I don't quite remember.

It's been well over ten years since I read Elissa's book but I thought her father had a testimony/calling to become a fundamentalist. I thought he was totally on board with becoming a polygamist and was unhappy that he wasn't initially given a third wife because three wives are needed to get into the 'celestial kingdom'.

Regarding the timing of him getting kicked out, I thought it was at the beginning of the big purge. Good question about the first wife staying while the other two were reassigned. Maybe she simply refused or maybe it's like you say that the legality of their marriage made it something Jeffs couldn't totally enforce?

I didn't realize that Elissa moved back to Short Creek. (I've only seen the first two episodes. Does this come up in this series?) That’s so disappointing to me. I thought she converted to mainline LDS? She's not a polygamist now is she? I thought she married a guy who wasn't going to marry other women. 

[OtterMommy]

37 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

I didn't realize that Elissa moved back to Short Creek. (I've only seen the first two episodes. Does this come up in this series?) That’s so disappointing to me. I thought she converted to mainline LDS? She's not a polygamist now is she? I thought she married a guy who wasn't going to marry other women. 

She talks about it in the 3rd episode.  To be clear, she moves back to the town of Short Creek, but not the FLDS Community.   I can understand her reasoning--there is so much she needs to emotionally work through and she feels she has to be there to do it.  I also think she might want to be available in case her younger sisters want to leave?  I don't think that was explicitly said, but I got that feeling that was part of it.  She's still close to Ruby, who also lives in the area.

[kaygeeret]

Wow, this was excellent and repellent at the same time.

I am so very sorry for all the women and girls who are still there, in the cult this profoundly vile man and his 'helpers' established.

I have also just finished Under the Banner of Heaven and the two, one a documentary and one a fictionalized version of a true story, certainly complement one another and help create a vivid and awful story of the FLDS cults.

Those poor children and their mothers.

[configdotsys]

Sam Brower was in this series and his book was excellent. I read it several years ago: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/11489698-prophet-s-prey

[Ms Lark]

Peacock has another Warren Jeffs documentary, Preaching Evil: a Wife on the Run. This one mostly from the viewpoint of his wife/scribe Naomi, whose record keeping helped put him away. She was originally one of Rulon's wives that Warren "inherited." Some think she should also be in jail for the role she played, but she does make some good points. Hard to say.

Now, I think I've had enough of Jeffs to last the rest of his life. Looking forward to the obit.

Edited June 12, 2022 by Ms Lark

[libgirl2]

17 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

I'm not sure that I learned anything new either exactly, it was more like a refresher course on FLDS horror stories. One thing that I was reminded about was that Elissa and Ruby were both married to younger men but it didn't make their situations any better because both girls were married off against their will and were too young to be able to consent in any case. It's not only about young girls being married to men old enough to be their grandfathers or even great-grandfathers. It's about girls (and adult women) being forced into situations where they are abused on a daily basis. 

Another thing that I wanted to comment on was Elissa Wall's father. What is wrong with this man that he converted and roped his family into this situation? He was educated, he had a successful business, he wasn't brainwashed from babyhood that it's either polygamy or hell, he seems to have had a happy marriage--why couldn't that be enough? Even if he was simply swayed by keeping the original word of the LDS faith, why did he have to jump into the FLDS group specifically? To me it looks like he thought this would be the best/easiest way to get more wives and was disappointed that he wasn't treated the same way as a guy like Fred Jessop who had more than a dozen wives. 

Being totally cool with his daughter being made a wife to an 86 year old man is so wrong and sick. He completely failed his daughters as a father and I'm not sure if his family even sees it that way. Warren is obviously the worst person in this equation but I'm not letting the father off the hook here. He gave Rebecca over to be the aging prophet's wife because he thought he would score points with the man who would allow him to get another wife. 

On top of all that, once he got kicked out he just wanted to be back in the fold even though they treated him like shit. My personal opinion is that the group never really accepted him as one of them. They just permitted him to join because they wanted access to his daughters (and his money). If he'd been a Jessop or a Barlow I feel like he might not have been kicked to the curb as easily.

Last point, I thought it was interesting that Joe's obedience in bringing Ruby back to the group didn't stop Warren from kicking him out. Considering how Warren seemed to reward the ones who did everything he said, I wonder what made him decide that Joe needed to be run off to live the life of a 'lost boy'? 

My speculation was that he didn't like that Ruby was attracted to Joe and wanted to punish Joe for it. It seems like Warren went out his way to keep people from matches that would give them any happiness. Like, if Elissa had been happy to marry her 19 year old cousin he would have suddenly changed his mind and had her marry some other dude.

A couple of books that I read from ex- wives of one of the LeBaron brothers mention being in love with their husband and wanted to marry him despite any age difference. WE also saw that in this series. So yes, age doesn't necessarily mean anything, it is being forced against your will to marry some one not of your choosing. Add to that being underage..... ugh. 

Edited June 12, 2022 by libgirl2

[Darian]

1 minute ago, Enero said:

Joe’s betrayal of Ruby was….SMH. He knew that Warren was lying. He knew what he was doing was wrong but lied and took her back anyway. Unforgivable. 
 

Your take is probably correct. I was not giving my full attention at that part, and I thought he believed he and Ruby would be together. But of course not. How could he? He was weak and, well, as a young man he wasn't at the top of the chain, but he still had privilege and power over women, and that was what he went chose over her once, so of course, he'd do it again. He tried to portray himself in a better light and Ruby just seems to want to tell her story and live her life (I hate that anyone has to be that strong, but she and the others who spoke are doing so much good for others).  

[Razzberry]

1 hour ago, Enero said:

The compound in El Dorado (the “heaven on earth” property) is still thriving, but what about the one in Utah? Is that one still going strong as well?

I recently read an article on Short Creek and while there are still some FLDS there, it's slowly recovering into somewhat of a tourist town. 

https://www.kuer.org/arts-culture-religion/2021-07-15/from-polygamous-refuge-to-tourist-town-residents-adapt-to-the-transformation-of-short-creek

I'm still not sure if I'd buy cookies from this woman however.

Edited June 12, 2022 by Razzberry

[configdotsys]

Did anyone else see the documentary Sons of Perdition from 2010? It was about boys from Short Creek that got thrown out. It was quite compelling. I have to say how impressed I was that these young men were just so incredibly talented construction workers and knew how to operate just about everything. That will serve them well in their careers but the forced labor they likely endured as children makes me very sad. I hope they found happiness. 

Here is a link about the doc: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sons_of_Perdition_(film)

[OtterMommy]

1 hour ago, Enero said:

A lot more people should’ve gone down for this besides Warren.

Agreed, although it is much harder to prove guilt for an accessory.  

That being said, every adult man who has an underage wife (or wives) is guilty of statutory rape.  I know a comment was made early in the series that polygamy was something that law enforcement sort of turns a blind eye to BUT there is a difference between adults entering into a polygamous relationship and a grown-ass adult forcing a child into marriage.

[Avaleigh]

1 hour ago, OtterMommy said:

Agreed, although it is much harder to prove guilt for an accessory.  

That being said, every adult man who has an underage wife (or wives) is guilty of statutory rape.  I know a comment was made early in the series that polygamy was something that law enforcement sort of turns a blind eye to BUT there is a difference between adults entering into a polygamous relationship and a grown-ass adult forcing a child into marriage.

Even though I know that legally an adult can "consent" to a polygamous marriage, I don't feel like that's what's going on in the FLDS community. In addition to forced child marriage being evil and wrong and something that should never happen, I think the adult women who are being "assigned" (or reassigned in many cases) to men where they don't have any say in the matter and it's just about the prophet's will is just as problematic and disturbing. There are women who are eighteen, in their twenties and beyond who are brainwashed into thinking that they have no choice. Most of the time they don't have the skills or education to resist and have very few options that make an escape feel like a realistic choice especially when they have a bunch of kids in the mix.  

People who are in something like the Centennial Park group are the adults where I can kind of shrug my shoulders and say okay, I guess they've consented to this situation. They're adults, they're educated, they educate their children, and they aren't kicking out the boys, performing underage marriages, etc. They wear what they want, they let their kids date and make informed decisions, they don't force their kids to become polygamists (as far as I've read). I still think it's nuts of course and don't think it's healthy, but I can more or less get behind it being a lifestyle choice as opposed to the nonstop 24/7 abuse the FLDS group puts people through.

[configdotsys]

25 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

Even though I know that legally an adult can "consent" to a polygamous marriage, I don't feel like that's what's going on in the FLDS community. In addition to forced child marriage being evil and wrong and something that should never happen, I think the adult women who are being "assigned" (or reassigned in many cases) to men where they don't have any say in the matter and it's just about the prophet's will is just as problematic and disturbing. There are women who are eighteen, in their twenties and beyond who are brainwashed into thinking that they have no choice. Most of the time they don't have the skills or education to resist and have very few options that make an escape feel like a realistic choice especially when they have a bunch of kids in the mix.  

People who are in something like the Centennial Park group are the adults where I can kind of shrug my shoulders and say okay, I guess they've consented to this situation. They're adults, they're educated, they educate their children, and they aren't kicking out the boys, performing underage marriages, etc. They wear what they want, they let their kids date and make informed decisions, they don't force their kids to become polygamists (as far as I've read). I still think it's nuts of course and don't think it's healthy, but I can more or less get behind it being a lifestyle choice as opposed to the nonstop 24/7 abuse the FLDS group puts people through.

I so agree with you. This idea that women are "passed along" to someone else is so disturbing on many levels. They are chattle to be used in any way the elders see fit. "Your husband is no longer here, this is your husband now. Bow to him and keep sweet." I need a shower. It's impossible to believe that the real world does not creep into these religious sects that live off the grid in their own way as people defect from them all the time. These women, like other religious women who have a dozen kids, lack social skills in the real world, and having no resources, are trapped. They fear repercussions if one of their children bails so they discourage it. It's almost like the crabs in the bucket thing. 

Law enforcement and whomever is responsible for giving law enforcement the power to smash these things up carries a lot of the blame here. If you are allowed to do something in plain sight of the authorities and it's allowed to slide, you up the ante and go a step further, and then even further. 

This situation did not end with Jeffs imprisonment. It's probably business as usual there and many elders are likely happy that Warren is out of their way. These types of documentaries stay with me for a long time as I sit here sipping tea and thinking that right now, somewhere out there, this is going on. 

Edited June 13, 2022 by configdotsys

[libgirl2]

10 hours ago, Razzberry said:

I recently read an article on Short Creek and while there are still some FLDS there, it's slowly recovering into somewhat of a tourist town. 

https://www.kuer.org/arts-culture-religion/2021-07-15/from-polygamous-refuge-to-tourist-town-residents-adapt-to-the-transformation-of-short-creek

I'm still not sure if I'd buy cookies from this woman however.

What? Are they going all Amish now? 

[DanielleBowden]

I’m the mother of young teens. Trying to wrap my mind about dropping my 14 yo daughter at a seedy motel to marry while she cried and begged to be spared. Wondering how it would feel with my son being turned out so he’s the old creeps get first dibs on girls his age. What about being reassigned to another man? These folks have been brainwashed since birth but the sheer fuckery of the situation did wake up a few. Such a warning against unchecked patriarchy, unchecked authority. The scenes of the girls in pastel dresses singing in Zion, the stuff of nightmares. I had to fast forward through the altar bed part after his sheet instructions. I’m glad I did as I’ve since read about the recordings. 

[peachmangosteen]

15 hours ago, Enero said:

Indeed. He is an evil, disgusting POS.

What stood out to me was that the women had to stand up and take Warren down, not the men who knew what was happening  and knew it wasn’t right, but the women. Even the guy who was high ranking in the church but who  got  banished because he made it clear his daughter wouldn’t be married until she was 18 was just as culpable in the crimes that were taking place as Warren himself IMO. 

13 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

Agreed, although it is much harder to prove guilt for an accessory.  

That being said, every adult man who has an underage wife (or wives) is guilty of statutory rape.  

This reminded me, does anyone know if the man who actually raped Elissa was prosecuted at all? 

[absnow54]

For some reason, while watching, I was under the impression that the church had been disbanded, or they were at least under new leadership. It was heartbreaking to hear that they still consider Warren Jeffs their profit, and that thousands of people are still involved in the church. I hope now that they're under more scrutiny from the gentiles that they've at least stopped their trades of child brides, at least. 

[OtterMommy]

49 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

This reminded me, does anyone know if the man who actually raped Elissa was prosecuted at all? 

Yes...from Wikipedia:

Quote

Elissa Wall's cousin and ex-husband Allen Steed was charged with first-degree felony rape after Jeffs' first conviction in 2007.  The rape charges were later dropped in favor of Steed entering a plea bargain by confessing to the charge of engaging in sexual relations with a minor. As a result, he would serve 30 days in prison and three years on probation as well as pay $10,000 in fines.[27] Wall was pleased with the outcomes and commented, "This is a good day. I'm grateful for where we're at."

12 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

Even though I know that legally an adult can "consent" to a polygamous marriage, I don't feel like that's what's going on in the FLDS community. In addition to forced child marriage being evil and wrong and something that should never happen, I think the adult women who are being "assigned" (or reassigned in many cases) to men where they don't have any say in the matter and it's just about the prophet's will is just as problematic and disturbing. There are women who are eighteen, in their twenties and beyond who are brainwashed into thinking that they have no choice. Most of the time they don't have the skills or education to resist and have very few options that make an escape feel like a realistic choice especially when they have a bunch of kids in the mix.  

Agreed.  However, there is a key difference between statutory rape and the passing the women around.  With the over-18 women, nothing can really happen unless a woman is willing to testify and that is very rare in this case.  With statutory rape, the state can come in as long as they have enough evidence to reasonably suspect something is going on.  So, seeing pregnant 12 year olds would be a huge red flag...or someone who leaves the cult testifying that underaged wedding are happening.

[Welshman in Ca]

You could see the inbreeding coming through with everyone under a certain age starting to have the same features. One of the main reasons it takes people outside of the religion so long to do anything seems to be the freedom of religion clause, everyone is scared of interfering with these places as that is the first thing that gets shouted out and used against law enforcement which is why they are loathe to do anything without 100% certainty that there is a chance of a conviction. Look how powerful scientology has become despite what people who have left say is happening or has happened.

[pasdetrois]

On 6/11/2022 at 10:26 AM, configdotsys said:

Warren Jeffs, raped a 12 year old girl on a bed in the "church" in front of the congregation and recorded the audio of it, probably many times. They did not include in this program (unless I missed it) the part of the audio in which the little girl says "Thank you" in answer to some question he asked her while he was doing that. I cannot get that out of my mind.

I remember this. It is haunting and is the thing I remember most from all of the media I've seen about the FLDS.

I also seem to recall that one of the FLDS communities eagerly collected SNAP (food stamps) or some other form of financial assistance.

Edited June 13, 2022 by pasdetrois

[libgirl2]

11 minutes ago, pasdetrois said:

I remember this. It is haunting and is the thing I remember most from all of the media I've seen about the FLDS.

I also seem to recall that one of the FLDS communities eagerly collected SNAP (food stamps) or some other form of financial assistance.

Yes, the do, any kind of government assistance, they are first in line. Say what you will about the Amish, they usually don't accept anything. 

[RunningMarket]

I have read up/watched many things about the FLDS, but that tape they played in the last episode was the worst.

I recommend Rachel Jeff's book (she is one of Warren's daughters, who was molested by him). She goes into a lot of detail about the community, and how yes indeed, Warren still commands the flock from behind bars.

[Avaleigh]

10 hours ago, absnow54 said:

For some reason, while watching, I was under the impression that the church had been disbanded, or they were at least under new leadership. It was heartbreaking to hear that they still consider Warren Jeffs their profit, and that thousands of people are still involved in the church. I hope now that they're under more scrutiny from the gentiles that they've at least stopped their trades of child brides, at least. 

While there's obviously still a lot of work to do and a lot of brainwashing that will never change, it seems like there has been some noteworthy progress. For one thing, Hildale actually elected a female mayor! (Donia Jessop) The first ever in the town's hundred plus years. Never thought I'd read that. There's also a nonprofit called Cherished Families that offers resources for people who are coming from polygamous situations. They even do a financial literacy class because so many of the women who leave don't have a clue about money.

https://www.fox13now.com/news/local-news/360/flds-womens-journeys-to-independence

From the article:

"We’ll provide a parenting class, a healthy relationships class, a financial literacy class, and women’s self-protection and things. You know, whatever families need,"

I was really happy to read this. I hope they continue to make progress and help people.

[Angeleyes]

Interesting article from one of Warren Jeffs’ sons who was cast out as a teen and forced into labor

https://www.insider.com/flds-leader-son-recalls-working-hotel-construction-as-kid-2022-5?amp

[Angeleyes]

I’m surprised that the show didn’t mention that Warren Jeff’s’ Utah conviction was overturned by the Utah Supreme Court due to a technicality with the jury instructions.

[libgirl2]

1 hour ago, Angeleyes said:

I’m surprised that the show didn’t mention that Warren Jeff’s’ Utah conviction was overturned by the Utah Supreme Court due to a technicality with the jury instructions.

I thought they did. 

[Angeleyes]

5 hours ago, libgirl2 said:

I thought they did. 

I may have missed it. I remember the one guy saying he didn’t get much time because of the nature of the particular charge they brought against him, but I didn’t remember a mention that the conviction in that case was overturned. 

[Sir RaiderDuck OMS]

On 6/15/2022 at 10:41 AM, Angeleyes said:

I’m surprised that the show didn’t mention that Warren Jeff’s’ Utah conviction was overturned by the Utah Supreme Court due to a technicality with the jury instructions.

For those who haven't read up on it: Jeffs' Utah convictions (Accomplice to Rape) were overturned because, according to the Utah SC, the jury should have been instructed to find him Guilty only if they determined that Jeffs intended for the sex between the bride and groom to be nonconsensual.

None of this affects Jeffs' two Texas convictions for Sexual Assault of a Child, for which he won't be eligible for Parole until 2038 at the earliest.

And it's only become weirder since. Last I heard, he ordered from prison that all FLDS marriages except his are now invalid, all of the brides are now his brides, and the women can only be impregnated by Jeffs' hand-picked "Seed Bearers" who (while wearing hoods and nothing else) have sex with the women. Their now-former husbands are required to watch.

[MamaMax]

5 hours ago, Sir RaiderDuck OMS said:

For those who haven't read up on it: Jeffs' Utah convictions (Accomplice to Rape) were overturned because, according to the Utah SC, the jury should have been instructed to find him Guilty only if they determined that Jeffs intended for the sex between the bride and groom to be nonconsensual.

None of this affects Jeffs' two Texas convictions for Sexual Assault of a Child, for which he won't be eligible for Parole until 2038 at the earliest.

And it's only become weirder since. Last I heard, he ordered from prison that all FLDS marriages except his are now invalid, all of the brides are now his brides, and the women can only be impregnated by Jeffs' hand-picked "Seed Bearers" who (while wearing hoods and nothing else) have sex with the women. Their now-former husbands are required to watch.

Did he watch Handmaids Tale from prison and get ideas????? 

[libgirl2]

6 hours ago, Sir RaiderDuck OMS said:

And it's only become weirder since. Last I heard, he ordered from prison that all FLDS marriages except his are now invalid, all of the brides are now his brides, and the women can only be impregnated by Jeffs' hand-picked "Seed Bearers" who (while wearing hoods and nothing else) have sex with the women. Their now-former husbands are required to watch.

What the ---- ? Yet, I'm not surprised. 

[Cloud9Shopper]

I watched the first episode of this today and stopped about halfway through the second episode. I feel like I can’t say anything except for “ick” as far as Warren Jeffs is concerned. Not to mention all the creepy cult-like religious songs in the old video clips, oh and don’t get me started on the open casket photos… 

I will never understand these sects of Christianity (I know the Duggars and Bates and other non-polygamist but still fundie families do this too) that cut themselves off from the outside world. I always believed even after watching the Duggars for years that these families are doing themselves more harm than good. Eventually it all comes crashing down and you can’t hide anymore. It’s cruel what they do to women especially by making them marry and have babies so young and not let them have any chance at gaining skills. I can’t imagine what it must be like to have no life purpose except marriage and babies and never make any choices for yourself. 

The women that got out of this and blazed their own trails are so brave. 

[Welshman in Ca]

6 hours ago, Sir RaiderDuck OMS said:

And it's only become weirder since. Last I heard, he ordered from prison that all FLDS marriages except his are now invalid, all of the brides are now his brides, and the women can only be impregnated by Jeffs' hand-picked "Seed Bearers" who (while wearing hoods and nothing else) have sex with the women. Their now-former husbands are required to watch.

The sad thing about this is that while we know he's a sick twisted bastard the majority of these people will still follow his every word, men & women, quite happily without a second thought.

There needs to be some sort of limit on freedom of religion, something like it has to be transparent and their finances have to be audited regularly by an independent outside entity. You wouldn't be allowed to do this sort of shit except for religious purposes & then people in power turn a blind eye. Don't get me started on scientology & their tax free status amongst a whole host of other shit they're allowed to get away with under the umbrella of religious freedom.

[kaygeeret]

Thank you Welshman in CA  for proposing ways to at the very least, investigate these clearly illegal cults masquerading as religions.

My friend and I who have watched either Under the Banner and/or  Keep Sweet, have struggled to figure out a way to make these shysters pay for their crimes.  They hide under the idea of religion.  You have nailed it!

Admittedly, Scientology has the advantage of a ton of money and some powerful folks behind them.  Do watch Lisa Rinna's documentary on Netflix.  It is eye opening.  Also it is helpful to remember that Scientology, a phony religion based on aliens something or other, was founded in the late 1940'2, early 1950's by a failed science fiction writer who famously said....  the quickest way to make a fortune is to found a religion....not a direct quote.  And...he targeted the rich at first.....

All these guys are mobsters hiding behind the cloak of 'religion', however 'fake' it is.  Take 'em down like any other mobster - thru the money!

I so despair when I see how many folks willing go along with whatever sad, money grubbing, disgusting thing the 'great one' decrees.  They ignore the fact that the only person it benefits is the 'big guy'.  And I do not mean god!

[MMLEsq]

On 6/17/2022 at 8:36 PM, kaygeeret said:

...Admittedly, Scientology has the advantage of a ton of money and some powerful folks behind them.  Do watch Lisa Rinna's documentary on Netflix.  It is eye opening.  Also it is helpful to remember that Scientology, a phony religion based on aliens something or other, was founded in the late 1940'2, early 1950's by a failed science fiction writer who famously said....  the quickest way to make a fortune is to found a religion....not a direct quote.  And...he targeted the rich at first.....

Lisa Rinna (RHoBH)?  Could you possibly mean Leah Remini?

[kaygeeret]

10 hours ago, MMLEsq said:

Lisa Rinna (RHoBH)?  Could you possibly mean Leah Remini?

Oh good gravy!!!!!

Of course I do!  Thank you so much for the correction!

SIgh!, just another sign of inattention run rampant☺️

[PrincessPurrsALot]

Folks,

We do not support the idea of rape regardless of the person's incarceration status or whatever they may have done.  There is collateral damage to such statements. Several posts have been removed for either suggesting prison rape or quoting a post that does. 

If you would like to see what you wrote and re-post, please PM @PrincessPurrsALot.  As always, we do not discuss moderator actions in the forums. 

[Birnam Wood]

Elissa's dad: "I was most upset when they took my guns" (probably paraphrased because I may or may not have been shouting at the television).

Yes -- that is ABSOLUTELY the greatest injustice that was perpetuated within the community. Who do you believe will portray you in the movie, sir?

Edited June 27, 2022 by Birnam Wood

[Scarlett45]

On 6/27/2022 at 1:45 PM, Birnam Wood said:

Elissa's dad: "I was most upset when they took my guns" (probably paraphrased because I may or may not have been shouting at the television).

Yes -- that is ABSOLUTELY the greatest injustice that was perpetuated within the community. Who do you believe will portray you in the movie, sir?

Yes- his guns. Not his wife or his children he claimed to love so much. 
 

Im finally sitting down watch episode 2. I know quite a bit about the FLDS, and the PI nailed it when he stated the amount of human trafficking that goes on. The boys are threatened with expulsion if they don’t comply, and the girls are forced to be broodmares and threatened to have their children taken away if they don’t comply. The attorney had it right, they target the women that are a touch independent and try to get them married and pregnant so they are trapped. Most women aren’t going to leave their babies. It’s a hell of a lot harder to get out of a bad situation pregnant or with a baby in tow. 
 

On 6/11/2022 at 2:16 PM, Avaleigh said:

Another thing that I wanted to comment on was Elissa Wall's father. What is wrong with this man that he converted and roped his family into this situation? He was educated, he had a successful business, he wasn't brainwashed from babyhood that it's either polygamy or hell, he seems to have had a happy marriage--why couldn't that be enough? Even if he was simply swayed by keeping the original word of the LDS faith, why did he have to jump into the FLDS group specifically? To me it looks like he thought this would be the best/easiest way to get more wives and was disappointed that he wasn't treated the same way as a guy like Fred Jessop who had more than a dozen wives. 

He wanted to be a “cool kid” and a big shot. Even when they took his wife and children away, he was upset about his loss of STATUS. Not the loss of them. So it wasn’t about having multiple wives or lots of kids, it was about getting to be important. 

On 6/11/2022 at 2:16 PM, Avaleigh said:

My speculation was that he didn't like that Ruby was attracted to Joe and wanted to punish Joe for it. It seems like Warren went out his way to keep people from matches that would give them any happiness. Like, if Elissa had been happy to marry her 19 year old cousin he would have suddenly changed his mind and had her marry some other dude.

Because if the people (especially the young couples) have real emotional connections and social support with each other, they are less likely to follow you blindly and put up with your shit. 
 

If the Wall father actually cared about his wives and children (and yes I am sure you can love and care for multiple spouses and kids) when Warren tried to take them away he would’ve said “fuck no sir” and stood up to him, or taken his family and left the community. (Which he could do because he had resources)

[Scarlett45]

On 6/11/2022 at 2:16 PM, Avaleigh said:

Last point, I thought it was interesting that Joe's obedience in bringing Ruby back to the group didn't stop Warren from kicking him out. Considering how Warren seemed to reward the ones who did everything he said, I wonder what made him decide that Joe needed to be run off to live the life of a 'lost boy'? 

I think Warren saw how much of a connection Ruby and Joe had. They were both just kids but they loved each other. If Joe could get her to come BACK, Joe could get her to leave again. What happened if Ruby complained about her husband to him? Joe might defend her? Fight the husband? She may have had an affair with Joe because she was in love with him!
 

She already ran away once at 15. If she wasn’t impregnated and trapped immediately, by 18 she would try to bring the system down, report them to the authorities. 
 

Rebecca was lucky in a sense that when she was married Rulon he was so old she didn’t conceive. She had some years to mature and come into her own with having to think of a baby. She was able to walk out- but she had a brother who gave her a place to go.