S04.E07: Chapter Seven: The Massacre at Hawkins Lab

[Dev F]

53 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

The 1979 gate got bigger and more dangerous as the years went on? I don't know, the 4 years earlier bit has thrown me.

The 1979 gate immediately closed, and when El tried to make first contact with the demogorgon in 1983 she opened a new, larger, and apparently not self-closing gate.

[janie jones]

Is it possible it's the same location and that's why it didn't close up the second time?

The 1979 gate opened when he slammed into the wall. As I remember it, the 1983 gate opened in a random location across the building from the room 11 was in. Since they didn't have a bunch of kids in 1983, they wouldn't have needed the rainbow room, so maybe they remodeled that area, and the gate is in the same spot, even though it doesn't look like it. Like, when she reacted to the demogorgon in 1983, it tore the gate open in a weak spot.

[Sarah 103]

38 minutes ago, janie jones said:

Is it possible it's the same location and that's why it didn't close up the second time?

The 1979 gate opened when he slammed into the wall. As I remember it, the 1983 gate opened in a random location across the building from the room 11 was in. Since they didn't have a bunch of kids in 1983, they wouldn't have needed the rainbow room, so maybe they remodeled that area, and the gate is in the same spot, even though it doesn't look like it. Like, when she reacted to the demogorgon in 1983, it tore the gate open in a weak spot.

I thought it was the same spot. After we saw her accidently create the gate in 1979, I thought it looked very similar to the gate that we see in 1983. I thought it was the exact same place. They remodeled the rainbow room and turned that into a space to study the Upside Down. It was the shattered mirror and the way the gate was framed that made me think the 1979 gate was the same gate we see in 1983. 

[CailynA]

35 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

I thought it was the same spot. After we saw her accidently create the gate in 1979, I thought it looked very similar to the gate that we see in 1983. I thought it was the exact same place. They remodeled the rainbow room and turned that into a space to study the Upside Down. It was the shattered mirror and the way the gate was framed that made me think the 1979 gate was the same gate we see in 1983. 

I thought it might have been the same thing

[Dev F]

59 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

I thought it was the same spot. After we saw her accidently create the gate in 1979, I thought it looked very similar to the gate that we see in 1983. I thought it was the exact same place. They remodeled the rainbow room and turned that into a space to study the Upside Down. It was the shattered mirror and the way the gate was framed that made me think the 1979 gate was the same gate we see in 1983. 

The 1983 gate was created in the sensory deprivation lab, a much larger room (two stories tall, to accommodate the water tank) on a lower floor than the living quarters (which we know because Hopper had to take an elevator down there when he broke into the lab in season 1).

And I don't think it's a situation where they completely gut-rehabbed the Rainbow Room into a sensory deprivation lab and moved all the living quarters up to the ground floor, since the Rainbow Room seems to already be on the ground floor when El's mom breaks in during the flashbacks in season 2. (In that we just sort of see her fumbling around at every door she finds after pulling a gun on the security guards, and nothing about her finding an elevator and somehow getting downstairs while alarms are going off.) It also doesn't really make sense that the lab would be like, "Whoops, this angry woman with a gun broke into our basement living quarters, so we'd better move them to a less secure location!"

Edited June 8, 2022 by Dev F

[Kel Varnsen]

3 hours ago, Dev F said:

The 1979 gate immediately closed, and when El tried to make first contact with the demogorgon in 1983 she opened a new, larger, and apparently not self-closing gate.

Did the 1979 one close? I will have to watch it again but after El sent 001 through it, it looked like the big red blob on the wall like most of the other gates we have seen.

[Dev F]

57 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Did the 1979 one close? I will have to watch it again but after El sent 001 through it, it looked like the big red blob on the wall like most of the other gates we have seen.

We see it at a slightly later point, when Brenner demands of young El, "What have you done!" By then it's just a spidery brown mark on the wall—more "closed" looking than, say, the gate in season 3 after the portal drill blew up.

[Kel Varnsen]

On 6/7/2022 at 12:37 PM, Taryn74 said:

Definitely agree! I think Brenner realized he couldn't "control" him, hence the implant which suppressed his powers. And at that point, what option does he have other than to keep him at the facility but pretend he isn't powered? He can't ship him off to jail or a mental institution - it would be too easy for him to find someone to take the implant out, kill everyone, and set himself free on the world. Other than flat out killing him, I don't think Brenner had any other choice.

It was a CIA funded psychological experiment right? Based on other real world examples of those options would have included permanent sedation or using electro-shock for memory loss. Hell a lobotomy recommended by a doctor like Brenner would have probably been perfectly acceptable at the time.

[Redrum]

I mean, considering all the dead kids.... why not just solve the problem with a bullet to the head?

Its just one more corpse.

Unless One was being used for breeding. Age wise all of the lab younglins looked young enough to be his.

[Athena]

A lobotomy and killing One would have rendered him completely useless as an asset. I think Brenner and team hit a ceiling of how to deal with One but he's too valuable to remove completely. In an emergency like the current one, Owens and Brenner view El as the best weapon against a apocalyptic threats. Better to keep One around monitored and studied when he was their best asset. Also possibly for breeding (ew).

[Redrum]

My counter argument is that he's clearly not a useful asset if he can't be trusted with his own powers to where he has to be restrained. Its also ridiculous to let him be around the children when he can clearly tell them things they aren't supposed to know. 

Its a plot hole. I will need to accept it.

[KarenX]

21 hours ago, Dev F said:

We see it at a slightly later point, when Brenner demands of young El, "What have you done!" By then it's just a spidery brown mark on the wall—more "closed" looking than, say, the gate in season 3 after the portal drill blew up.

Of course! No one ever thought El killed those kids, and Hawkins Lab didn’t really even care that much. The rip to the next dimension is the real horror.

[Taryn74]

46 minutes ago, Redrum said:

Its also ridiculous to let him be around the children when he can clearly tell them things they aren't supposed to know. 

Hence One being shock-collared after getting too friendly with El.

Unless Papa was doing that on purpose to make El trust One even more. I could see either scenario, tbh. What a piece of shit that man is.

[KarenX]

59 minutes ago, Taryn74 said:

Hence One being shock-collared after getting too friendly with El.

Unless Papa was doing that on purpose to make El trust One even more. I could see either scenario, tbh. What a piece of shit that man is.

Owens is also a piece of shit, but at least he’s a no-nonsense, sorry kid yer all just numbers piece of shit instead of mess with your head pretend we’re family Mother Gothel piece of shit. Owens is more honest and respectful to El in that way.

[Haleth]

I knew it!  I knew as soon as Eleven removed the control device from One that he was Vecna. I didn’t guess that he was Victor’s son though, so good job, writers!

I don't care about who is gay and who isn't and who is dating whom.  They are kids trying to figure out who they are.  Their friendships are more important to me than the romantic lives of 14yos.

It FINALLY occurred to me who One reminds me of with his creepy stare - a young Brad Dourif.

Wait, there are only 2 (supersized) episodes left?  Why the split season?

Edited June 11, 2022 by Haleth

[Emily Thrace]

On 6/4/2022 at 8:32 PM, Kel Varnsen said:

The light bright thing also shouldn't have worked, since the pegs aren't individual lights, there was one big light at the back of the box. So if Nancy was using Will's light trick it should have just turned one light on and off and lit up the whole screen.

I suspect it works because its not electricity that Nancy/Will were manipulating but rather light. Hence why she could only manipulate the lights that were turned on not just by flicking the light switch. It also makes slightly more sense in physics terms because of lights unique properties as both a particle and a wave.

On 6/7/2022 at 11:37 AM, Taryn74 said:

Definitely agree! I think Brenner realized he couldn't "control" him, hence the implant which suppressed his powers. And at that point, what option does he have other than to keep him at the facility but pretend he isn't powered? He can't ship him off to jail or a mental institution - it would be too easy for him to find someone to take the implant out, kill everyone, and set himself free on the world. Other than flat out killing him, I don't think Brenner had any other choice.

I wonder if One continued existence is the result of the two sides in the US government that Owens mentions to El. One side wanted him dead one wanted to keep him around to see if he could still be useful and keeping him on at the lab was the compromise that was reached.

Also the more I think about it the more it makes sense that Kali didn't so much "escape" as she was set loose. She was too sociopathic to control and her powers weren't what they were looking for so Brenner arranged for her to escape and didn't look very hard for her.

I also wonder how much One told El was true. I could see Brenner using El as a sort of red test for 2 but its also entirely possible One just made that up to manipulate her in to setting him free.

[Redrum]

17 minutes ago, Emily Thrace said:

Also the more I think about it the more it makes sense that Kali didn't so much "escape" as she was set loose. She was too sociopathic to control and her powers weren't what they were looking for so Brenner arranged for her to escape and didn't look very hard for her.

I honestly never saw Kali as sociopathic. She clearly has empathy and affection for her friends and for El. She certainly had some rage for her captors and was going about handling things the wrong way. But I never got sociopath from it. 

Also, maybe I am the sociopath here, but much like there's no reason to keep One around alive if he's so dangerous, there's no reason to arrange for a what? An eight to ten year old girl ? Escape. Seriously, you take her out to a field and tell her to look at the flowers and you blow her dangerous brains out.  Or if you're a gentle soul, you drug her, hold a pillow over her face until she's dead and then load her into the onsite incinerator. 

[Enero]

On 5/30/2022 at 11:25 AM, MamaGee said:

I totally didn't mind them being MIA. Sadly, these episodes made it very clear to me that there are some of the group of kids that I really like (those in Hawkins minus Nancy) and those I don't really like. (All of the other kids, even El) Will is whiny, Mike is manic and oblivious, and Jonathan is becoming a slacker? I mean, I can't really remember who he was before any of this so maybe he was a slacker all along. I know he wasn't popular. 

Agreed. I didn’t miss the California crew at all which is really unfortunate considering what an integral part Will and Mike played in previous seasons. Honestly, if they don’t show up in July, which they will show up, I still wouldn’t miss them. That’s how dull their storyline was, especially after they escaped in the Pizza van. Perhaps things will pick up for them in Part II next month.

I thought the Hawkins storyline was fantastic, and to me really saved this season because all of the other storylines weren’t nearly as engaging. The Russian storyline got good in this final episode as did El’s journey and that was only due to the Vecna reveal.

Though the reveal seemed to go on forever, Vecna’s origin story was very well done. So I’m guessing the upside down world has always been there, and was harmless, until One got banished there by El, then started creating the terrifying creatures to haunt the real world. It also explains why the horror from the upside down world is exclusive to Hawkins (as far as we know. Though Russia does have a demogrogan so maybe it’s expanded there) and nowhere else since One was banished from real world Hawkins to upside down world Hawkins. 

My question though is if his whole purpose is revenge on El for betraying him, why kidnap Will in S1? He was kidnapped before anyone even knew about El. And why wait 4 years to start wrecking havoc? Did it take that long for him to find a way through, back to the real world? And when he did Will was just at the wrong place at the wrong time?

Hated the bullying story, but was pleased, though I know it was wrong, when El skate faced Angela. I was sick of her standing tearing eyed and just taking abuse. I wanted her to fight back.  The vigilante jock squad was annoying too. I thought it was completely unrealistic that a teenage kid would be able to get a room full of adults to get riled up over demons without any proof and any dissent. Folks just took his word for it and went to running with it. Glad that story thread was abandoned in the last couple of episodes. Though I’m sure it will be picked up in Part II.

Really enjoyed the addition of Eddie. The actor is charismatic which makes Eddie interesting. I will admit though when he and some of the other random high schoolers were introduced I thought they looked too old to be in high school then realized they were likely seniors which is why they looked so much older than the main ST teens. 

I don’t think I’ve ever really shipped anyone on this show but I like Steve and I’m enjoying his renewed connection with Nancy  I wouldn’t be opposed to them getting back together.

The season had a slow start but once the story picked up it became pretty good  I’m looking forward to the final episodes next month  

[mledawn]

5 hours ago, Enero said:

The vigilante jock squad was annoying too. I thought it was completely unrealistic that a teenage kid would be able to get a room full of adults to get riled up over demons without any proof and any dissent. Folks just took his word for it and went to running with it.

Yeah, this was a bit ridiculous to us now but the Satanic Panic was (is!?) real. Small town Indiana already halfway believing that D&D was satanic, then having a high schooler "verifiy" that it was "true"... Only the parents of the kids who actually played the game weren't swayed but it was mob mentality at work. And given the amount of weird shit happening in Hawkins, I was okay with it. But that jock storyline was too annoying for words all the same!

[Redrum]

7 hours ago, Enero said:

 The vigilante jock squad was annoying too. I thought it was completely unrealistic that a teenage kid would be able to get a room full of adults to get riled up over demons without any proof and any dissent. Folks just took his word for it and went to running with it.

The only part I found hard to believe was that it was a kid whipping them up. Otherwise. people are upset, there's been multiple deaths and tragedies, the police have no answers, everyone is in a big fearful group.... Jason could have talked them into burning down Hawkins Labs or storming the US Capitol in the mood the crowd was in. 

[Enero]

On 6/6/2022 at 6:35 PM, Taryn74 said:

I really do think what we're learning is that the Upside Down is Vecna's "world" and he at first populated it with places from his memory plus creatures of his own imagination (the demogorgon, the mind flayer, the demodogs, etc), and later after El began to access it he "watched" the world through her eyes and used that info to populate it more and more. Which would be why it pretty much became a creepy version of Hawkins.

Great theory. This would also explain why he’s behind in his recreation. When Nancy and crew were in the Upside Down world and went looking for the guns in her room they found shoes and a stuffed animal she gave away two years prior and a diary which she’d completed in the real world but was still unfinished in the upside down world. I also think the timeline would align with when One started to get full access to the real world via his monsters. 

I still wonder though why it took so long for him to access the real world and start causing problems? Did it take him 4-5 years to regain enough power to push through whatever gate and gain access?

[Taryn74]

1 hour ago, Enero said:

I still wonder though why it took so long for him to access the real world and start causing problems? Did it take him 4-5 years to regain enough power to push through whatever gate and gain access?

I really think it's got to do with El touching the demogorgon for the first time, since that is clearly what kicked everything off in S1. That physical connection became the conduit between the two dimensions. Right now I'm going with the theory that between S1 and now, Vecna has been honing his skills in the Upside Down and working on becoming more powerful, and working on finding a way to cross over between worlds without using openings that El accidentally created.

10 hours ago, Enero said:

My question though is if his whole purpose is revenge on El for betraying him, why kidnap Will in S1? He was kidnapped before anyone even knew about El.

I don't think Vecna intentionally kidnapped Will in S1. It's been a while since I've done a rewatch (and I'm waiting until after the second part of S4 to go back and rewatch to start tying everything we know now together) but wasn't Will snatched from the basic area where El would have escaped out of the pipe? I think El probably inadvertently opened a small door in the woods and the demogorgon just happened to see a tasty snack going by in the form of a kid on his bicycle and jumped out and grabbed him. The demogorgon may not have even known it was jumping dimensions when it did so, it seemed to be a pretty instinct-driven, low intelligence creature. But Will was able to get away (probably by using the kind of techniques they would use as characters in D&D) and hide in the Upside Down version of his little fort in the woods until he was rescued.

That's what makes the most sense to me right now. That may change as we find out more.

[DoctorAtomic]

That seems reasonable because now there's more gates, so he is getting more powerful. 

[Roxie]

On 5/30/2022 at 11:25 AM, MamaGee said:

Eddie a.k.a. Robert Downey Jr.'s little brother. 
 

Yes!  This week I finally realized who Eddie reminds me of!!

[iMonrey]

Quote

Russia - lord, who thought this was a good idea? They never did explain how the Soviets were able to build a multi-level sub-basement facility in the middle of the US with no one noticing. That's a hell of a lot more complicated than building a mall. Let's not add in the fact it was next to a secret government facility that opened a gate to another dimension. Someone would still be watching Hawkins. We know the US government monitors phone calls in Hawkins, but they never noticed the Soviets building a huge facility or sending out radio messages? And they were able to sneak people out of the facility and out of the country?

This was the part I really wasn't able to follow. Did they ever explain how Hopper survived the explosion at the end of last season? I think there was, at the time, a lot of speculation that he jumped through the gateway before it closed, but this season we find him in our own world . . . but in Russia? How the hell did he get there? Which Russians survived Season 3 and why would they have taken him there?

To me, this felt like a bit of a cheat. The Duffer Brothers wanted to have their cake and eat it too: we got the big, epic sacrifice of Hopper at the end of last season, but at the same time they really weren't brave enough to kill the character off, so we got this mess of a Russian prison storyline that didn't make a lot of sense and wasn't explained very well, and I think mostly because they didn't really know what else to do with Hopper given how Season 3 ended. 

[Kate47]

I think the Moff Tarkin looking Russian dude was there at the end of season 3. He mentioned something about recognizing Joyce and that she looked better in the uniform. I very vaguely remember Hop standing up after the machine explosion and seeing several Russians and then getting coldcocked with a gun butt, my assumption is they escaped with him and flew him to Russia when they went back to Kamchatka. 

[Taryn74]

51 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

This was the part I really wasn't able to follow. Did they ever explain how Hopper survived the explosion at the end of last season? I think there was, at the time, a lot of speculation that he jumped through the gateway before it closed, but this season we find him in our own world . . . but in Russia? How the hell did he get there? Which Russians survived Season 3 and why would they have taken him there?

I'm not 100% on this, but I think what happened is that the explosion pulled Hopper into the Upside Down, and then he popped back out of the Upside Down at the "sister site" in Russia. There was probably already a Gate in Russia, which would explain how they had a demogorgon. The Russians who we saw knock Hopper out were watching the video feed and saw Joyce turn the keys and pieced together what was happening and just proceeded from there.

That's my working theory at the moment.

[Redrum]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

This was the part I really wasn't able to follow. Did they ever explain how Hopper survived the explosion at the end of last season? I think there was, at the time, a lot of speculation that he jumped through the gateway before it closed, but this season we find him in our own world . . . but in Russia? How the hell did he get there? Which Russians survived Season 3 and why would they have taken him there?

Other than the blast didn't kill him, no they didn't really explain it. I mean, I can handwave that he was grabbed by surviving Russians who somehow escaped the massive troop presence invading the facility but unless I was *really drunk* while watching and missed it, there was never an explanation of how Hopper got from the US to Russia. 

13 minutes ago, Taryn74 said:

There was probably already a Gate in Russia, which would explain how they had a demogorgon.

I assumed they got the demogorgan from season 2 when they were running around Hawkins Indiana eating people. Malls aren't built in days, the russians were already infiltrating Hawkins to get information about what was happening. I mean, Dustin literally found a baby demogorgon in the trash. You don't need master spy craft to head out to the massive number of dead pumpkin fields and scratch around for weirdness. 

[Emily Thrace]

On 6/10/2022 at 10:44 PM, Redrum said:

I honestly never saw Kali as sociopathic. She clearly has empathy and affection for her friends and for El. She certainly had some rage for her captors and was going about handling things the wrong way. But I never got sociopath from it. 

Also, maybe I am the sociopath here, but much like there's no reason to keep One around alive if he's so dangerous, there's no reason to arrange for a what? An eight to ten year old girl ? Escape. Seriously, you take her out to a field and tell her to look at the flowers and you blow her dangerous brains out.  Or if you're a gentle soul, you drug her, hold a pillow over her face until she's dead and then load her into the onsite incinerator. 

I honestly don't think we saw enough of Kali to judge her either way. Personally she came across less caring and more controlling to me but mileage varies. 

There are a number of reasons to keep both One and Kali alive. The first being they are a rare finds the Brenner went through a lot of trouble to get. Why waste them by destroying them? Why not keep them in alive just in case they become useful? Neither is in a position to cause Brenner any trouble as far as he knows. It could even be argued that letting Kali roam allows them to test her in the field.

It also goes back to why Brenner does this in the first place. I do think he does actually care about these kids. The way he reacted to Five's death even with no one around sealed for me. I don't think he loves them like Joyce does her boys but he does truly care. (Considering he would have been born at the onset of the Great Depression and came of age at the end of WW2 I don't think its a stretch to say he had plenty of opportunity to to rack up emotional damage) I suspect Brenner is someone who just isn't capable of the full range of human emotion (Not saying he's a psychopath I'm thinking more Attachment Disorder if you want to name it). I think he cares about the kids as much as he is capable of. So taking them out back and shooting them is not something he wants to do unless he absolutely has to.

I also think your assuming Brenner has total control and is only operating on logic. Which directly contradicts everything Owens has told us about how that job worked. Its also just not how any bureaucracy works, there are always multiple motives and agendas in play.

[chediavolo]

On 5/29/2022 at 3:57 AM, PurpleTentacle said:

So far this season has been a hell of a lot better than season 3. That's for damn sure. Though if that russian prison would just explode, I wouldn't be angry at this point. That storyline has been such a colossal waste of time and even Hopper's pretty face couldn't distract from how boring his speechifying was.

1 had some good points in his super-villain-speech. The best villains always do. So well done writers, well done.

That the upsidedown is frozen in time makes sense and at the same time it doesn't. It basically has to be, so it is explained why everything is there from our world, just broken down. On the other hand, if nothing there changes other than the electric fields from lights in our world, how was Will able to read the letters his mom put on the christmas lights?

When 11 yeeted 1 into the upsidedown it didn't look all tentacly. So I guess 1 created the upsidedown as we know it today? Then how does the mindflayer figure into that? Also a creation of 1? The gate did look tentacly, but that could have been a reaction to 1 already. Or was the upsidedown always tentacly and we just didn't see it in 1's magical girl transformation sequence?

Absolutely loved One’s supervillain speech. As someone who has depression and sees the bad side of everything, I agreed 100% with his synopsis of what life is.  I had an ideA orderly was one but not that he was the monster/ Victors son. Very well done. I’m impressed with some of the writing on this show. Is this the last season? 

[Clanstarling]

4 hours ago, chediavolo said:

Absolutely loved One’s supervillain speech. As someone who has depression and sees the bad side of everything, I agreed 100% with his synopsis of what life is.  I had an ideA orderly was one but not that he was the monster/ Victors son. Very well done. I’m impressed with some of the writing on this show. Is this the last season? 

I believe there's a season 5 coming up.

[Taryn74]

14 hours ago, Emily Thrace said:

There are a number of reasons to keep both One and Kali alive. The first being they are a rare finds the Brenner went through a lot of trouble to get. Why waste them by destroying them? Why not keep them in alive just in case they become useful? Neither is in a position to cause Brenner any trouble as far as he knows. It could even be argued that letting Kali roam allows them to test her in the field.

I'm beginning to wonder if One tried to groom Kali to help him escape the way he did El, only Kali (being older and more hardened emotionally) was too smart for him and just used the opportunity to escape herself and leave him hanging. I don't like Kali at all (I do think she was a sociopath - wasn't she willing to kill that one guy in front of his young kids and was mad at El for stopping her? And he hadn't done anything but be one of the orderlies at the facility? I need to rewatch those scenes to be sure) but it would serve One right to have her just slip out of his hands like that.

[Redrum]

The orderlies were incredibly brutal. They have tazers and shock collars and physically manhandled kids. I understood Kali wanting to make her orderly pay and not caring if his kids witnessed it. I mean this is the guy Kali and El saw drag away El's mom. I'm not overwhelmed with sympathy for them.

I do think Kali could have been a first run for One.

[Starry-Eyed]

10 hours ago, Taryn74 said:

I'm beginning to wonder if One tried to groom Kali to help him escape the way he did El, only Kali (being older and more hardened emotionally) was too smart for him and just used the opportunity to escape herself and leave him hanging. I don't like Kali at all (I do think she was a sociopath - wasn't she willing to kill that one guy in front of his young kids and was mad at El for stopping her? And he hadn't done anything but be one of the orderlies at the facility? I need to rewatch those scenes to be sure) but it would serve One right to have her just slip out of his hands like that.

That's my theory too, that One previously arranged an escape for Kali, but unlike El who felt sorry for his "we're all prisoners" spiel and offered to help, Kali just took the opening and bailed. Of course, it's also possible she just escaped on her own - her powers would be highly useful for an escape attempt.

On 5/29/2022 at 9:05 PM, Emily Thrace said:

Also since when are Steve and Nancy "true love"?

That super bugged me, since I interpreted Nancy's instant dive after Steve to be about Barb - she lost one friend to the Upside Down because of inaction/not paying attention, and like hell is she letting it happen ever again. Vecna targeting her guilt over Barb seemed to confirm that too.

Steve is my favorite character, but I would really rather not see him and Nancy together. IDK why, but Nancy is extremely shippable with all the "older teen" characters, though. Pretty sure Nancy's straight, but there's some chemistry between her and Robin, and even Eddie seems slightly attracted to her, and that doomed newspaper kid was definitely very into her

[eleanorofaquitaine]

Kali's powers were also not conducive to actually helping to remove the chip in Henry's neck. Her powers were about warping people's perception of things but I don’t think we saw her impacting people physically. 

Re Steve and Nancy - I don't think that they are each other's One True Love or anything but we all know couples in high school who broke up and got back together multiple times. The notion that they might still have feelings for each other doesn't seem that strange to me.

[iMonrey]

Quote

I understood Kali wanting to make her orderly pay and not caring if his kids witnessed it.

Who is/was Kali? I don't remember any such character.

[Redrum]

33 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

ho is/was Kali? I don't remember any such character.

Season twom-Eleven runs away to the big city and finds Kalie/Eight, who is a british Indian teen girl who can make people see what she wants them to see, She runs with some rebellious outsider teens, is a bit punk, and is into killing those who worked at Hawkins. 

[Paloma]

On 5/29/2022 at 1:16 AM, Redrum said:

Am I the only one who thought One, in retrospect, was pretty youthful looking for someone who had to be mid thirties at least? And more like mid forties?

I'm not sure if that's right. I think mid-30s. I'm terrible at math but here is my rough calculation: If the Creel house murders were in 1959 and the Creel son was about 10-11 at the time, he should have been about 23-24 33-34 in 1983 when the first season took place--this was presumably the year that the massacre occurred and El escaped. To me One looked like early to mid-20s, or late 20s at most, so that would be reasonably consistent. But what confuses me is that in some flashback scenes in the lab, El looks younger than she was when she escaped. It's unclear when these flashbacks took place, since El was presumably in the lab for several years. But she could just be remembering One as he looked in the last few years weeks or months before the massacre. 

Edited June 18, 2022 by Paloma
Bad math--forgot to count the first 10 years of life

[Paloma]

On 5/29/2022 at 1:42 AM, Dev F said:

One talks to Eleven about the time when her mother tried to rescue her, which he says happened "when Eight was still here." That means she'd already escaped by the time of this season's flashbacks.

In season 2, Eight says, "I remember the day I came to the rainbow room and you were gone. So when my gifts were strong enough, I used them to escape." And Eleven didn't have any memories of Eight beyond the one her mother showed her, so it doesn't seem like they had much if any contact once El was old enough to really remember her.

What I'd guess is that Brenner probably kept the girls apart after Terry's rescue attempt, so that Eight couldn't remind Eleven of her mother's visit.

I have totally forgotten who Eight was and how she fit into the story--can someone give me a quick summary? I really don't have time to rewatch the first 2 or 3 seasons.

[janie jones]

51 minutes ago, Paloma said:

I'm not sure if that's right. I think mid-30s. I'm terrible at math but here is my rough calculation: If the Creel house murders were in 1959 and the Creel son was about 10-11 at the time, he should have been about 23-24 33-34 in 1983 when the first season took place--this was presumably the year that the massacre occurred and El escaped. To me One looked like early to mid-20s, or late 20s at most, so that would be reasonably consistent. But what confuses me is that in some flashback scenes in the lab, El looks younger than she was when she escaped. It's unclear when these flashbacks took place, since El was presumably in the lab for several years. But she could just be remembering One as he looked in the last few years weeks or months before the massacre. 

The massacre was in 1979, four years before she escaped. (They gave a date onscreen in the first episode, at least.)

[peachmangosteen]

1 hour ago, Paloma said:

I have totally forgotten who Eight was and how she fit into the story--can someone give me a quick summary? I really don't have time to rewatch the first 2 or 3 seasons.

Someone covered it a couple posts up:

On 6/15/2022 at 3:57 PM, Redrum said:

Season twom-Eleven runs away to the big city and finds Kalie/Eight, who is a british Indian teen girl who can make people see what she wants them to see, She runs with some rebellious outsider teens, is a bit punk, and is into killing those who worked at Hawkins. 

[Paloma]

17 minutes ago, janie jones said:

The massacre was in 1979, four years before she escaped.

Well, that would definitely be consistent with how old One looked. But do we know why El did not escape until 4 years later? I just assumed (partly because I was confused about the timeline) that she would have escaped soon after she defeated One, because everyone else (adults and kids) seemed to be dead. But I guess Dr. Brenner must have regained consciousness (since obviously he could not have died during the massacre) and found her before she could escape.

8 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

Someone covered it a couple posts up:

On 6/15/2022 at 3:57 PM, Redrum said:

Season twom-Eleven runs away to the big city and finds Kalie/Eight, who is a british Indian teen girl who can make people see what she wants them to see, She runs with some rebellious outsider teens, is a bit punk, and is into killing those who worked at Hawkins. 

Thanks to both of you, somehow I missed that. I kept seeing references to Eight and Kali in other posts but could not remember how they fit in or that they were the same person.

[Clanstarling]

2 minutes ago, Paloma said:

Well, that would definitely be consistent with how old One looked. But do we know why El did not escape until 4 years later? I just assumed (partly because I was confused about the timeline) that she would have escaped soon after she defeated One, because everyone else (adults and kids) seemed to be dead. But I guess Dr. Brenner must have regained consciousness (since obviously he could not have died during the massacre) and found her before she could escape.

From what we've seen so far, it looks to me that El was much younger during the events of the massacre at the lab than at the start of the series. In the first episode of the series, when Brenner and other guys in protective gear go in, the Upside Down flakes are going strong, and there's a lot of growth around the rift.

[Taryn74]

24 minutes ago, Paloma said:

But I guess Dr. Brenner must have regained consciousness (since obviously he could not have died during the massacre) and found her before she could escape.

Yes, part of her memories of the 1979 incident were of Dr. Brenner coming in and saying "What have you done?" (or possibly "What did you do?' I don't remember the exact wording right now LOL) which was meant to imply that El killed all those kids - but we knew better, of course - and found out in the final flashback was really One that killed them. It's unclear right now if One thought he killed Brenner or if he intentionally left him injured but alive so he would have to live with knowing how much he had hurt all these kids for their entire lives.

17 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

From what we've seen so far, it looks to me that El was much younger during the events of the massacre at the lab than at the start of the series.

Yes, the massacre took place in 1979, El escaped and kicked off S1 in 1983. Since it took deep regression therapy in the sensory deprivation tank for her to even remember what happened in 1979, I think it's pretty safe to assume that she had completely blocked the memories of the massacre as well as her life in the lab before then (which would explain why she didn't remember Kali/Eight until her mother gave her those memories back in S2).

1 hour ago, Paloma said:

But what confuses me is that in some flashback scenes in the lab, El looks younger than she was when she escaped. It's unclear when these flashbacks took place, since El was presumably in the lab for several years.

Yeah, the showrunners really messed up IMO when they had current El IN most of the scenes from her memories instead of WATCHING her younger self during all of the flashback scenes. It was just too confusing and made it look like some of them took place years before others, when really they all took place in 1979.

[Clanstarling]

24 minutes ago, Taryn74 said:

Yes, part of her memories of the 1979 incident were of Dr. Brenner coming in and saying "What have you done?" (or possibly "What did you do?' I don't remember the exact wording right now LOL) which was meant to imply that El killed all those kids - but we knew better, of course - and found out in the final flashback was really One that killed them. It's unclear right now if One thought he killed Brenner or if he intentionally left him injured but alive so he would have to live with knowing how much he had hurt all these kids for their entire lives.

One leaving Brenner alive is also consistent with the fact that he left his own father alive when he killed his family.

Edited June 18, 2022 by Clanstarling

[Taryn74]

26 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

One leaving Brenner alive is also consistent with the fact that he left his own father alive when he killed his family.

Yeah, that's what I'm leaning toward as well. I saw a video where someone said that One fell into a coma after killing his mother and sister (not knowing it would drain his power so much) and that's why he didn't kill his father as well, but I don't know if that was show canon or just this commentator's opinion. I haven't rewatched the season yet, I'm waiting for the final two episodes, so I don't know for sure.

[janie jones]

2 hours ago, Taryn74 said:

It's unclear right now if One thought he killed Brenner or if he intentionally left him injured but alive so he would have to live with knowing how much he had hurt all these kids for their entire lives.

Well Eleven thought she killed him, too. The dude's invincible.

Speaking of One leaving his father alive, I must have missed something. If One went into a coma after killing his mom and sister, how did the dad get mutilated?

[Redrum]

Victor Creel cut out his own eyes to stop seeing the nightmares. There was a scene with him in jail with a razor blade.

[Dev F]

2 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

One leaving Brenner alive is also consistent with the fact that he left his own father alive when he killed his family.

It's not totally clear to me whether Henry was saying that he intended to leave his father alive, or just that he intended to blame him for the other murders, which he could also do if he killed his mom and sister and made it look like his dad committed suicide. (For total grammar nerds, the ambiguity rests on the fact that although the subtitles give the line as "He was arrested, blamed for the death of my sister and mother, just as I had planned," which would imply the former, to me it sounds like the line as delivered is "He was arrested, blamed for the death of my sister and mother just as I had planned," which could also mean the latter.)

But the fact that he left Brenner alive would potentially be evidence in favor of the notion that he purposely left his father alive as well. In that case, we'd have to assume that Henry was holding his father in a dream state for a reason other than as a prelude to murdering him. Maybe it was just to incapacitate him until the police arrived, and/or to further freak him out so he looked like a deranged murderer to the cops once they did arrive?

[jqdeco]

Over the past 3 weeks I binged all four seasons.  Loved the first 2 seasons. I have found splitting everyone up the last 2 seasons a little frustrating. I fast forwarded thru the majority of the prison scenes. Not my thing and the violence felt a little gratuitous. I really like Eddie and Argyle but Steve and Dustin are my favorite characters.  Never connected the Creel kid to being 1. 
Looking forward to the final episodes but I hope season 5 they keep everyone together and they don’t get lazy and rely on violence and gore.