S06.E23: Reunion Part 3

[MatildaMoody]

I know I haven't referenced the hood or ghetto at all, but I'm sure what you say is true. As for what I quote above, I think that right there is the reason there is discussion about Heather and Carol.

 

Also, I agree with everything you wrote about Aviva, but...I believe Aviva's lack of character is irrelevant to what I'm saying about Heather and Carol.

 

Those who are so above Aviva's behavior do what she is unwilling or incapable of doing, and that is acknowledging their own wrong-doings and changing their own behavior.

 

To stay on topic, I'll go back to one of the examples from the reunion:

 

Carol's "don’t get me mad" statement tells me that she takes no responsibility for her behavior.  Being mad is not a good enough reason to do some of the things she did. Being mad only gives you the right to be mad. Whatever you do beyond that point is your choice and your responsibility. Remember, Aviva was also mad! She lied because she was mad at the non-well-wisher. Whether we think there is a difference between apples and spaceships in why they were mad, it doesn't matter. It's what they did when mad.

 

This isn't about expecting Carol to act like a robot and not defend herself, but if she was truly above the fray, she would have said something like: "I learned that when I'm mad I stoop to levels I usually find deplorable in others; therefore, while I was victimized and hurt by Aviva's actions, I also crossed certain lines I shouldn't have crossed." That's being above Aviva's behavior. Not continuing with petty crap like on her blog.

 

I think the bold parts of your post are where we will have to simply disagree with each other.  

1. While I agree in theory that those of us who are above Aviva's behavior should avoid engaging in it; I can't fathom being in the trenches and being able to judge my personal reaction as it is happening. In the moment that Aviva is attacking, I would only be aware of the fact that she is attacking me and everything that she is saying is going to be there, on film (sure I could blog about it later, but not only would that be months away, I have no idea whether or not the majority of people are going to read it), and I have to say something, anything to rebut her argument. And since Carole actually handed Aviva's leg back to her and sincerely told her that she needed help, tells me that she DID in fact acknowledge that Aviva's actions did not mean that Carole should engage in Aviva's behavior. In other words, Carole acknowledged that she had to take a step back and be the better person.
2. Carole's "don't get me mad" statement tells me that she has realized that she will involve herself in the fray if she feels personally attacked. Since we have no idea what she may have also said that was edited out of a hack job reunion episode, we have no clue whether or not she took further responsibility for her behavior during bookgate. I will even go so far as to say that we have no idea what Aviva said about her behavior regarding bookgate or any other gate. But, what remains (see what I did there) is that Aviva has shown absolutely no growth in the footage we have seen. We have seen Carole show growth and an understanding of Aviva's behavior.
3. I feel bad for the blogging aspect of the housewives. They can either not blog, blog themselves, or hire a ghostwriter. Based on Carole's prior works, I am assuming that she writes them herself. But, I have no idea what the word on the street is about her blogging. Assuming that she writes them herself, she is in a tough position. She has to talk about the actual episode, while trying to span the time frame between when the episode was filmed and how she feels now. I think she has done an admirable job of simply talking about how she felt at the time and how she is feeling now. 

 

I didn't really care for Carole in her first season. I thought that she was too invested in being above the housewives. I got that she was all about treating the show as an impartial observer, but I didn't like her because of it. I like her now because she has been willing to let us see how awkward and (should I say) weird she is. She has involved herself in the drama because she was under direct attack. And, as she said during the reunion, all housewives fights are not created equal. She involved herself because it was her reputation and career were at stake. So, while I don't care for Bookgate, I get why she will give her perspective about it in an interview or blog post. It seems to me like a combination of trying to figure it out as an observer, and trying to provide context for what actually happened. And, since this whole thing must be completely surreal to her, context is the only thing that she can provide.

 

If someone wants to interview her about the show, I relish that she is willing to dish. Because, now I can relate to her. So, if she has to rehash Bookgate for an interview, I don't think of that as her holding on to a grudge. I think of it as her answering the questions that I would like to ask her. Aviva, on the other hand, doesn't answer questions. She doesn't own, or even give me a glimpse of owning, her behavior. She simply gives vicious sound bites against her cast mates in the hopes that she will somehow be relevant to the show. 

[jaync]

Carol's "don’t get me mad" statement tells me that she takes no responsibility for her behavior.  Being mad is not a good enough reason to do some of the things she did.

But the question posed wasn't about any regrets the women had regarding their behaviors. They were asked what they learned/took from the season, and there's really no "wrong" way of answering that.

[jinjer]

Carole should take Sonja's advice.  "Don't roll in the mud with pigs."

[Talented Tenth]

Carole should take Sonja's advice.  "Don't roll in the mud with pigs."

I think Sonja said, "If you lie down with pigs you're a pig."

[jinjer]

Even better.  Carole needs to stop with Aviva.  Aviva is crazy.  Carole's continued petty and vicious responses to the crazy is making Carole look worse because Carole is supposed to be the sane one.  

[ryebread]

Also, I agree with everything you wrote about Aviva, but...I believe Aviva's lack of character is irrelevant to what I'm saying about Heather and Carol.

This is one of many problems with Aviva.  Everything always comes back to her.  Look at comment boards everywhere.  Someone might say Ramona is this but Aviva is that.  Carole is this, but Aviva is that.  A poster on another thread here said they loved Carole's book and it brought her to tears, yet at the end, all she could think of was what a bitch Aviva is.  I don't want to give her that much power. She just needs to go and get herself straight.  She's like toxic fumes.  She seeps into everything.

 

What scares me a little is that Andy knows how polarizing she is and how much drama she brought when she wasn't even in a lot of the episodes.  She's referenced in the other Ho's blogs frequently.  I don't want her back.  I want Heather and Carole back because I'd like to see what they're like as individuals without Aviva around their necks and without Heather running defense all the time.

[technorebel]

What scares me a little is that Andy knows how polarizing she is and how much drama she brought when she wasn't even in a lot of the episodes. She's referenced in the other Ho's blogs frequently. I don't want her back. I want Heather and Carole back because I'd like to see what they're like as individuals without Aviva around their necks and without Heather running defense all the time.

And that's why I don't believe they'll get rid of Aviva. She does cause drama, for better or worse.

[Equicentric]

Carole was an aggressive bully and just not very nice to anyone except Heather (who is like a bully on steroids). Aviva may be nuts, but what you see is what you get with her. Carole and Heather are arrogant and fake. And never forget concerning book gate...where there is smoke here is fire. I don't think Aviva pulled that out of thin air because I don't think Aviva thinks about anything but herself most of the time - I so believe someone told her.

[shoegal]

Even better.  Carole needs to stop with Aviva.  Aviva is crazy.  Carole's continued petty and vicious responses to the crazy is making Carole look worse because Carole is supposed to be the sane one.

Is it sane to allow someone to attack you personally and professionally over and over again without responding? I am not saying that Carole has responded perfectly or that she hasn't been petty (I do disagree that she's been vicious) but I don't expect perfection from Carole.

I keep seeing that Carole "is supposed to be the sane one", as if Aviva being a nasty, crazy bitch is the product of some sort of insanity that is beyond Aviva's control. Or that Carole is held to a higher standard than Aviva because Aviva is a crazy bitch. I'm not buying it. Carole has not been perfect (who is?) but she is light years ahead of Aviva in the "sucks at humanity" standard IMO. I pick Writer Girl every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

[AuntiePam]

I keep seeing that Carole "is supposed to be the sane one", as if Aviva being a nasty, crazy bitch is the product of some sort of insanity that is beyond Aviva's control. Or that Carole is held to a higher standard than Aviva because Aviva is a crazy bitch. I'm not buying it. Carole has not been perfect (who is?) but she is light years ahead of Aviva in the "sucks at humanity" standard IMO. I pick Writer Girl every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

 

Yep.  The women on Andy's right behave as if they understand that words mean something.  To use that Geico commercial, "Words can hurt!"  Aviva doesn't seem to understand that.

 

I disagree about "where there's smoke, there's fire."  People DO make shit up.

[LotusFlower]

I'm still not getting what it is that Carole has supposedly done that she needs to take responsibility for. Is it her blog? Really? Cuz I think she takes full responsibility for that. Including every word and every comma. No ghostwriter for her (hello Teresa/NJ!).

[ryebread]

Is it sane to allow someone to attack you personally and professionally over and over again without responding?

 

No, but it's possible that if she'd stopped responding after their first skirmish. Aviva wouldn't have gotten what she was craving:  Attention. 

 

I believe Carol wanted to let it go after that first lunch. She went to Aviva's party with good intentions - saying she was giving Aviva the benefit of a doubt. At the party she asks Heather about the manicure, and "Does Aviva think I hired a ghostwriter to write my book?"

 

Heather:  "Yes, it came up."  (You lying sack of shit. You baited Aviva and worked her up so you could get the soundbytes you needed to relay to Carole.  It didn't just come up.)

 

Watch Carole's face and demeanor change. You can see from her body language and from the "OMG, OMG" that her blood pressure is rising.  I think she had been ready ignore Aviva's comments and move on but watch how Heather artfully manipulates Carole back into a tizz.

 

At :27, Heather, overtalking as usual:  "Here's the thing.  You have a career.  A career as a writer. A ca-reeeer." 

 

Heather, STFU and let Carole finish a sentence.  Then Moaner comes along and once again, it's Heather's job to speak for Carole. And they're off to the races because now Carole has both jackasses not letting her speak and Moaner saying, "Go talk to her." 

http://www.bravotv.com/the-real-housewives-of-new-york-city/season-6/videos/aviva-drescher-is-throwing-darts-at-carole-radz

[MatildaMoody]

 

Carole was an aggressive bully and just not very nice to anyone except Heather (who is like a bully on steroids). Aviva may be nuts, but what you see is what you get with her.

 

When did this happen? When was Carole an aggressive bully, and when was Aviva a "what you see is what you get" person? I'm not being snarky; I honestly want to know when this actually happened.

[zoeysmom]

This is what my issue is with Carole and her behavior.  Forever someone out there has made a critical comment about someone's work, athletic accomplishment, getting role, writing a song, singing a song, masterminding an IPO.  It simply means you have arrived and some jealous "nothing" decides to attack your work.  Be it saying Carl Lewis took steroids*, to Martha Stewart doesn't really know how to cook* or some other ass hat statement.  You address it once and walk away.  Of course there is always someone in the industry that will make a comment and pass it on.  It is not a career ender or even a zit on one's career.  Carole's obviously has enough credibility in the publishing industry to land a "high" six figure deal.

 

My objection was going back over it.  It was boring the first time around and all it did was take over from some of the more interesting moments.  Why wasn't Kristen asked about splashing Ramona?  Never got why she got a pass on that-she didn't do it to be playful she did it because she wanted to annoy Ramona and was hoping for a reaction or more likely an over reaction. 

 

Bravo needs to stop pouring energy (especially into a declining franchise) into the person everyone loves to hate.  I was really quite happy when Aviva was NOT on the show.

 

* I do not believe that Carl Lewis used steroids or that Martha Stewart doesn't know how to cook.  But these are simply examples of idiotic comments that people have made over the years.

[ryebread]

I don't know that Carole is an aggressive bully.  She's shown that she can be aggressive but I don't think bully fits her.  Now, Heather, yes to both.

 

I think Carole had a case of wanting Heather's approval, ala Kristen, and perhaps behaved in a way that was more aggressive than her nature - but in a way that she felt would please Heather.

 

I've seen Carole be catty and bitchy and act not very smart but I think she prefers to be peaceful.   

[Mozelle]

So, Kristen has said that she wanted Heather's approval and now it's been shifted to Carole wanting Heather's approval? I don't see that as the case at all (with Heather and Carole, that is). I don't think that Carole needs Heather's approval about her career she built long before she was ever cast on this show with Heather. I think even without Heather there, Carole would have been offended by Aviva's claims.

[ryebread]

So, Kristen has said that she wanted Heather's approval and now it's been shifted to Carole wanting Heather's approval?

Wanting Heather's approval, imo, has not shifted from Kristen to Carole.  I think they both want it.  And I think we will see them try to come out from under that if they're back next season.  Sure hope so because I don't get it.

 

I don't think that Carole needs Heather's approval about her career she built long before she was ever cast on this show with Heather. I think even without Heather there, Carole would have been offended by Aviva's claims.

I didn't say that Carole needs Heather's approval about her career at ALL.  I think Carole needed Heather's approval on how she was handling Aviva. 

 

Of COURSE Carole would have been offended by Aviva's claims if Heather wasn't there!  I'm not quite sure where you got that I thought that. But she might have handled it in her own way, with her own words.  Carole seems a quieter, calmer soul than Heather.  I think she thought it would please Heather to be more aggressive than is her nature.

[Mozelle]

I got the idea from your post. You seem to be saying that somehow Carole's adamant defense of her career (i.e., how she was handling that looney tunes Aviva for spreading gossip) is some sort of secret and/or subconscious mission to gain Heather's approval. I don't buy it. 

[LotusFlower]

I got the idea from your post. You seem to be saying that somehow Carole's adamant defense of her career (i.e., how she was handling that looney tunes Aviva for spreading gossip) is some sort of secret and/or subconscious mission to gain Heather's approval. I don't buy it.

I don't either. Both Carole and Heather are very confident and secure in who they are. Not only do they both say this about themselves, but they show it. And not once have they showed any insecurities. Well maybe once - Carole on a date! But obviously that had nothing to do with Heather!

[Beden]

 

Bravo needs to stop pouring energy (especially into a declining franchise) into the person everyone loves to hate.  I was really quite happy when Aviva was NOT on the show.

I agree and it seems that (as I understand--please correct me if I'm wrong) ratings are down across the board for all the franchises. The direction of cat fights/ idiots/ 'Team A' vs 'Team B' and non-stop arguing and screeching about totally petty crap is getting old. Has gotten old. As the old saying goes; this dog don't hunt.

 

I'm bored. I'm not watching other than as background and, frankly my dears, I don't give a damn anymore.

[WireWrap]

Wanting Heather's approval, imo, has not shifted from Kristen to Carole.  I think they both want it.  And I think we will see them try to come out from under that if they're back next season.  Sure hope so because I don't get it.

 

I didn't say that Carole needs Heather's approval about her career at ALL.  I think Carole needed Heather's approval on how she was handling Aviva. 

 

Of COURSE Carole would have been offended by Aviva's claims if Heather wasn't there!  I'm not quite sure where you got that I thought that. But she might have handled it in her own way, with her own words.  Carole seems a quieter, calmer soul than Heather.  I think she thought it would please Heather to be more aggressive than is her nature.

I don't think Carole looks for approval from Heather but looks for support from her. This is what real friends do for and with each other. Carole, IMO, is more of an introvert, quiet, deep thinker and much more adapt with putting her thoughts/feelings on paper than in speaking them. Heather, on the other hand, is an extrovert, she is able to assess the situation quickly and address it verbally when needed. They each bring a different approach that balances out the other and are happy with who/what the other is as a person and SUPPORT those differences. Carole knows that Heather will be honest with her, let her know if she crosses a line and the same holds true with Heather knowing Carole will do the same for her.

[Satchels of gold]

But the question posed wasn't about any regrets the women had regarding their behaviors. They were asked what they learned/took from the season, and there's really no "wrong" way of answering that.

My impression was that Carole meant that she was shocked to learn what she is capable of doing when she is mad.

[jelliebean]

 Aviva wouldn't have gotten what she was craving:  Attention.

 

Aviva confuses attention with affection. It's sad. 

[sasha206]

Aviva nailed her bigoted coffin shut with the "hood" and "ghetto" talk, and even threw in some accents, finger waving, and head rolling. And she was completely clueless as to how offensive it was, even after Heather tried to clue her and Ramona in. The look on Andy's face was priceless, even he could not believe how much of an idiot Aviva was being with her stereotyping. You just cannot make this shit up.

 

Agreed.  I finally watched Part III.  She's a disgusting pig.  

 

And Ramona almost said something wonderful and nice to Heather and then she ruins it by saying "handicapped."  Just like she did with Jill Zarin's stepdaughter (I think?) when she said her "deformity."  This woman has no tact.

[ScoobieDoobs]

What scares me a little is that Andy knows how polarizing she is and how much drama she brought when she wasn't even in a lot of the episodes.  She's referenced in the other Ho's blogs frequently.  I don't want her back.  I want Heather and Carole back because I'd like to see what they're like as individuals without Aviva around their necks and without Heather running defense all the time.

 

And that's why I don't believe they'll get rid of Aviva. She does cause drama, for better or worse.

 

Nah, I don't think so.  Her last Bravo blog was the tip off she knows she's gonna get fired.  It was a goodbye & a fuck you to Andy, the other producers, the cast & viewers.  She ain't gonna be back mostly cuz of her diva behavior with the producers.  She seemed to resolutely refuse to go on trips or she constantly tried to find some excuse not to go.  That's an enormous problem for producers -- and ultimately for the show cuz she missed out on time to mix with the others.  

 

The other huge prob for Veevs is everyone knows how toxic she is & she'll turn on a dime into a horrible screaming senseless evil nasty shrew.  So they all know to avoid her.  If they all try to avoid her, how can she cause any drama?  My bet is it's over for her.

[ScoobieDoobs]

Aviva should have made some sort of effort to answer the Moaner's question to her.  It was a valid question.  Refusing to answer it cuz Moaner called her vile made her look stupid.  Everyone wants to know why she turns so dramatically.  She said she gets angry & she's human.  Er, WTF???  That doesn't even make any sense.  Would the answer involve some sort of self analysis & she doesn't wanna go there?  Or is it that she knows she has some serious mental issues going on & doesn't want to reveal them?  

 

Now I'm not a therapist or psychiatrist or psychologist, but these drastic turns she takes against people on the show -- liking them one minute and then hating them vehemently a short time later -- sure makes her seem like a mentally unbalanced woman -- if she isn't completely faking everything for the show.

[ScoobieDoobs]

Carole was an aggressive bully and just not very nice to anyone except Heather (who is like a bully on steroids). Aviva may be nuts, but what you see is what you get with her. Carole and Heather are arrogant and fake. And never forget concerning book gate...where there is smoke here is fire. I don't think Aviva pulled that out of thin air because I don't think Aviva thinks about anything but herself most of the time - I so believe someone told her.

 

Maybe she didn't completely pull the bullshit out of thin air.  But make no mistake -- what Avia said was BULLSHIT!!!  She said Bill Whitworth was Carole's ghostwriter & he has never ghostwritten for anyone.  Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit, Veevs baby.  Bull de shit, hun.  Now Veevs did mention Tricia Boczkowski, an editor at Simon & Schuster as her source for this nonsense.  The only thing that makes sense to me is maybe Tricia joked to her bout Carole having a ghostwriter or said something about Bill & possibly gave her the basis to make up this nonsense.  I can tell ya this for sure.  Simon & Schuster is a very, very, very conservative company, so Aviva can pretty much forget about ever getting another book deal with them, after making one of their editors look like crap.

 

I don't find Heather & Carole "arrogant & fake".  They're both highly accomplished & successful women.  Aviva (to me) is an example of someone who's arrogant & fake.  Other than her education, she's accomplished very little.  We've seen how fake she can be -- certainly in the beginning of this season when she tried to get Moaner to be her friend.  Actually, Heather & Carole mostly took the same strategy I would take if I was forced to work someone who's clearly unbalanced & who would turn on a dime & harm you in any way they could.  I'd avoid this kinda lunatic at all costs.  But they do both come off poorly when taking potshots at Aviva.  They should have avoided it.

 

I don't see Carole as a bully, but she has issues which set her off.  And either the producers or Aviva -- actually, I'm certain it was her friend Andy Cohen or one of the other asshole producers (NOT Aviva) who came up with Bookgate -- really got Carole riled up.  And Carole went too far -- certainly by touching Aviva's face & by calling her a nothing for not having a career.  But she apologized for that.  It doesn't make her a bully.

Edited August 18, 2014 by ScoobieDoobs

[motorcitymom65]

Carole was an aggressive bully and just not very nice to anyone except Heather (who is like a bully on steroids). Aviva may be nuts, but what you see is what you get with her. Carole and Heather are arrogant and fake. And never forget concerning book gate...where there is smoke here is fire. I don't think Aviva pulled that out of thin air because I don't think Aviva thinks about anything but herself most of the time - I so believe someone told her.

In what ways are they arrogant and fake? I also don't remember Carole ever being an "aggressive bully and not very nice to anyone except Heather". When was she any of these things to Kristen? To Sonja? To Lu? To Ramona? I just remember her being really pissed off because someone accused her of being fake on national TV and letting that person know she was pissed, which where I come from is fair enough. 

[Beden]

 

Aviva should have made some sort of effort to answer the Moaner's question to her.  It was a valid question.  Refusing to answer it cuz Moaner called her vile made her look stupid.  Everyone wants to know why she turns so dramatically.  She said she gets angry & she's human.  Er, WTF???

Well, yes to what you said. My 25 year old son--a bright young man and all that--got pissed about a neighbor's nasty/aggressive dog biting him (can't blame him for that) and made a poor choice by dealing with it by punching a telephone pole, breaking his hand. No, not a good choice which may cost him his job. Idiot. And yes, he agrees that what he did was stupid. Can we say learning curve?

 

But, frankly, I'd rather he harm himself rather than make the choice to blame everyone else for his problems, destroy someone with vile and unwarranted insults and alienate everyone in the Western Hemisphere. And yes, animal control was called regarding the dog.

 

Aviva spews this crap, learns nothing and congratulates herself on 'besting' her latest victim, not realizing they simply think she's an unbalanced jerk.

 

And I choose not to allow her to come into my home via the airwaves...and this is Bravo's problem.

[Midnight Cheese]

It's like 'bully' has absolutely no meaning. 

[ryebread]

I got the idea from your post. You seem to be saying that somehow Carole's adamant defense of her career (i.e., how she was handling that looney tunes Aviva for spreading gossip) is some sort of secret and/or subconscious mission to gain Heather's approval. I don't buy it. 

No I'm not. "What we have here is a failure to communicate."  Heh.

 

Carole should be adamant in the defense of her career - that isn't a mission to gain Heather's approval.

 

What IS her mission, imo, is to appear more aggressive than is her nature in that defense, because Heather has POSSIBLY influenced her in that regard and Carole wants Heather's approval.

 

I think her kind of defense (when not...inspired...by Heather) would have been more thoughtful and effective.  Carole was doing just fine during that lunch, all by herself against Aviva.  She made her point and should have, again imo, just started ignoring any further bashing from she-who-shouldn't-matter.  Carole showed up to that party, ready to move on, and was goaded by Heather and told by Ramona - in no uncertain terms - that she needed to "Go TALK to herrrrrr."  And off she went, all compliant like. 

[Mozelle]

No I'm not. "What we have here is a failure to communicate."  Heh.

 

Carole should be adamant in the defense of her career - that isn't a mission to gain Heather's approval.

 

What IS her mission, imo, is to appear more aggressive than is her nature in that defense, because Heather has POSSIBLY influenced her in that regard and Carole wants Heather's approval.

 

I think her kind of defense (when not...inspired...by Heather) would have been more thoughtful and effective.  Carole was doing just fine during that lunch, all by herself against Aviva.  She made her point and should have, again imo, just started ignoring any further bashing from she-who-shouldn't-matter.  Carole showed up to that party, ready to move on, and was goaded by Heather and told by Ramona - in no uncertain terms - that she needed to "Go TALK to herrrrrr."  And off she went, all compliant like. 

 

Yeah, it still sounds the same to me. Either way, where I'll continue to disagree with you is that Heather goaded Carole into anything. Carole asked Heather about the mani/pedi session. Ramona came over and told Carole about how Aviva was still gossiping about her and that Carole should go and talk to Aviva about it. 

[comatoast]

Carol and Heather (and Kristin and Ramona) showed great arrogance when they continued to question Aviva's health, even AFTER they were all aware of the doctor's note. The letter from the doctor should have been the end of that story. If it is good enough for court and good enough for employers it should have been good enough for Carol, Heather and the rest.

 

Did they stop? Oh, no, they continued as if they knew better than Aviva's doctor what her health condition was at the time. Carol even put forth her own diagnoses. When people don't believe a doctor's diagnosis of his own patient, they are implying that doctor is either incompetent or has no ethics and will just give anyone a note to get out of anything.

[Ipse Dixit]

And yet if Andy had guaranteed Aviva the next season, the doctors note would've been null and void, per dear heroic Reid!

The shallowness of these people never ceases to amaze.

[WireWrap]

Carol and Heather (and Kristin and Ramona) showed great arrogance when they continued to question Aviva's health, even AFTER they were all aware of the doctor's note. The letter from the doctor should have been the end of that story. If it is good enough for court and good enough for employers it should have been good enough for Carol, Heather and the rest.

 

Did they stop? Oh, no, they continued as if they knew better than Aviva's doctor what her health condition was at the time. Carol even put forth her own diagnoses. When people don't believe a doctor's diagnosis of his own patient, they are implying that doctor is either incompetent or has no ethics and will just give anyone a note to get out of anything.

But, was that Dr.s note good enough for the Producers/Andy/Bravo? I do NOT think they bought that note either, hence her missing from 7-8 episodes, the opening credits and blogs for those same episodes. Had Aviva really been ill, uncontrolled asthma, they could/would have filmed her getting treatment and or medical care while the others were in Montana. I know Andy said otherwise, about why Aviva was missing from all of that, but Ramona missed the first 2-3 episodes, while in Africa, yet retained her apple and submitted blogs that entire time. I believe Carole, when she says the producers told them that Reid offered to get Aviva to Montana if she was given a contract for next season. I think this is why they spoke about Aviva at that dinner in Montana, they just found out about their, Aviva/Reid, ploy. They would NOT be able/allowed to come out and say that it was a contract move by Aviva but were able to use her "asthma" excuse to question her missing the trip.

[ryebread]

Carole asked Heather about the mani/pedi session.

And Heather was less than 100% truthful in her response. 

 

And yet if Andy had guaranteed Aviva the next season, the doctors note would've been null and void, per dear heroic Reid!

 

But see, that is hearsay. Who said that first and where did it come from? Just because they have not proven themselves to be liars (yet) some will believe whatever they say.  This is not in defense of Aviva (I feel like that should be my tagline) but they don't know that she lied about ANY of her illnesses.  But because she was horrible to Carole, all of the sudden everything she says is a lie, and everything they say - even when it doesn't pertain to Aviva - is the truth.

 

For instance, I don't believe what Carole said about being the boss in her friendship with Heather is true.  At all. 

[Mozelle]

But because she was horrible to Carole, all of the sudden everything she says is a lie, and everything they say - even when it doesn't pertain to Aviva - is the truth.

 

 

Actually for me the "Aviva the Liar" situation has nothing to do with Carole this season and everything to do with Aviva's display last season in St. Barth's. The way she went about misrepresenting the pirate/partying/drinking as Sonja and Ramona getting drunk and bringing men home when it was actually LuAnn doing that told me a lot about Aviva. It told me that even in the face of not having any of the facts, Aviva will still barrel through and speak authoritatively about shit she knows nothing about. Not only that, she'll go on and try to convince others that her wrong version is actually the right version.

[Satchels of gold]

Actually for me the "Aviva the Liar" situation has nothing to do with Carole this season and everything to do with Aviva's display last season in St. Barth's. The way she went about misrepresenting the pirate/partying/drinking as Sonja and Ramona getting drunk and bringing men home when it was actually LuAnn doing that told me a lot about Aviva. It told me that even in the face of not having any of the facts, Aviva will still barrel through and speak authoritatively about shit she knows nothing about. Not only that, she'll go on and try to convince others that her wrong version is actually the right version.

Well she does speak five languages and understands EVERYTHING!

[jinjer]

Is it sane to allow someone to attack you personally and professionally over and over again without responding? I am not saying that Carole has responded perfectly or that she hasn't been petty (I do disagree that she's been vicious) but I don't expect perfection from Carole.

I keep seeing that Carole "is supposed to be the sane one", as if Aviva being a nasty, crazy bitch is the product of some sort of insanity that is beyond Aviva's control. Or that Carole is held to a higher standard than Aviva because Aviva is a crazy bitch. I'm not buying it. Carole has not been perfect (who is?) but she is light years ahead of Aviva in the "sucks at humanity" standard IMO. I pick Writer Girl every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

I think Carole pretty much dropped it on the show after awhile.  However, I do follow her on twitter, and she retweets a lot of nasty and (yes sometimes) vicious tweets about Aviva.  She does have every right to protect and defend her journalistic reputation, but she has been wallowing in the mud with Aviva and is doing nothing to quell the fires.

[jaync]

I don't think Carole looks for approval from Heather but looks for support from her. This is what real friends do for and with each other.

Exactly. Carole is a grown ass, longtime independent woman; if Heather is speaking for/defending her, then it's with Carole's approval. And if it's a problem for her, then I doubt Carole would hesitate to tell Heather so. Carole might be less talkative by nature (and she may like that Heather isn't), but that doesn't mean she doesn't know what she wants and how to speak up for it. I would guess Heather is the more sensitive one in that friendship, given how easily her feelings were hurt by Carole in St. Barth's.

[ScoobieDoobs]

Carol and Heather (and Kristin and Ramona) showed great arrogance when they continued to question Aviva's health, even AFTER they were all aware of the doctor's note.

 

I think all of them except maybe Carole said they thought she had asthma, but didn't believe it would have prevented her from going to Montana.  Aviva kept changing her story bout that -- to the point where she would have dropped dead on the ground, had she got off the plane & met the wheelchair in Montana.  She was so overly dramatic, she sounded ridiculous & silly.  Showing the x-rays on the finale was idiotic.  It proved nothing, since it didn't actually show she had asthma.  That was weird.  Tough fuckin' shit, Aviva.  I like sayin' that word again cuz it makes me feel like I'm 14.  And yeah, Veevs, you are fuckin' weird.

[motorcitymom65]

No I'm not. "What we have here is a failure to communicate." Heh.

Carole should be adamant in the defense of her career - that isn't a mission to gain Heather's approval.

What IS her mission, imo, is to appear more aggressive than is her nature in that defense, because Heather has POSSIBLY influenced her in that regard and Carole wants Heather's approval.

I think her kind of defense (when not...inspired...by Heather) would have been more thoughtful and effective. Carole was doing just fine during that lunch, all by herself against Aviva. She made her point and should have, again imo, just started ignoring any further bashing from she-who-shouldn't-matter. Carole showed up to that party, ready to move on, and was goaded by Heather and told by Ramona - in no uncertain terms - that she needed to "Go TALK to herrrrrr." And off she went, all compliant like.

I think the difference to me is that it didn't appear Carole was goaded - it seemed like she was hearing the rest of the story. When she went to the party, she didn't necessarily realize that Aviva was broadcasting her allegations around to the cast, and therefore, the world via the cameras.

I also struggle to envision Carole as a gal who is easily manipulated into behavior she finds unappealing. This is a gal who has literally seen the world. She has gone places and seen things, met people and covered issues that most of us cannot imagine. She has met and socialized with people with big egos and bigger agendas. The aftermath alone of the tragedy that killed those three in the plane crash sounds like it was fraught with tension, conflicting ideas of resolution, and anger. It sounds like she held her own, which I am sure is a story in itself. I just find it hard to believe that Heather has taken hold of her in such a manner that she would turn in to something she is not. Her anger was just to real to have not been all her own. That is not to say that she doesn't seek out advice from folks she cares about, or that she will always make the right decision.

Edited August 18, 2014 by motorcitymom65

[ryebread]

I think the difference to me is that it didn't appear Carole was goaded - it seemed like she was hearing the rest of the story. When she went to the party, she didn't necessarily realize that Aviva was broadcasting her allegations around to the cast, and therefore, the world via the cameras.

Seems to me that if Heather really wanted to protect her friend, she might not have planned to meet and bait the enemy - on camera. When Carole seemed calm, Heather brought it up again at the party. Yes, to bring forth more information, but on camera?  I mean, Ramona is Ramona and is going to blast her mouth off when it suits her.

 

But Heather exacerbated that situation but ramping it up (on camera).  Did she really have to?  Her tone, in that clip, suggested to me that all the stuff she was suddenly laying at Carole's feet (on camera) should be addressed NOW by Carole (on camera).  Imo, that was bad advice. Heather, you said it yourself: This is Carole's career. Why are you messing with it?  On camera?  I think Heather would be having a cow by now if this was happening in reverse and it were her business that was being discussed and further brought to the forefront by Carole.

[jaync]

Ramona's the only one who gets to go on blast?

[jelliebean]

I think it is Heather's nature to call someone out if they are saying nasty things about a friend. Heather stood up for Sonja during the meeting with Aviva by telling her that some of the things she says about other people are vile. I find this quality admirable. Kristin let Ramona say some unkind things about Johathan without speaking up and she looked like a weak willed weasel. When Heather said Aviva "character assassinates" people she was right. I have yet to see Aviva have a disagreement with a cast mate without throwing in an ad hominem attack. She has the argument skills of a six year old. 

[WireWrap]

Seems to me that if Heather really wanted to protect her friend, she might not have planned to meet and bait the enemy - on camera. When Carole seemed calm, Heather brought it up again at the party. Yes, to bring forth more information, but on camera?  I mean, Ramona is Ramona and is going to blast her mouth off when it suits her.

 

But Heather exacerbated that situation but ramping it up (on camera).  Did she really have to?  Her tone, in that clip, suggested to me that all the stuff she was suddenly laying at Carole's feet (on camera) should be addressed NOW by Carole (on camera).  Imo, that was bad advice. Heather, you said it yourself: This is Carole's career. Why are you messing with it?  On camera?  I think Heather would be having a cow by now if this was happening in reverse and it were her business that was being discussed and further brought to the forefront by Carole.

Carole was the one to bring up that meeting between Heather and Aviva. She asked Heather how it went and what Aviva said. I thought they has been told that Aviva was telling others, I think it was Sonja or maybe a producer that told Carole, the GW lie about Carole's book before Aviva's party and that is why Heather met with Aviva. It was too see if Aviva was spreading that lie, they did not completely believe whoever told them initially. It was Ramona that insisted Carole confront Aviva right there and then, NOT Heather. Was Heather upset about what Aviva was saying/doing to her REAL LIFE friend, YES but it was Ramona that lit the fuse and then snuck away as the fire blazed into the GW inferno.

 

I think Aviva knows better than to go after Heather, Heather will fight back. IMO, she perceived Carole as meek and mild, not fast with the spoken word because she likes to think before she speaks, and is an easy target who would NOT fight back. I also believe she preplanned "bookgate" before they started filming this season, she threw out every nasty thing she could to get a reaction from Carole, including Carole's late husband, his family, his cousins, her age and that she is unmarried and has no children.

 

That is where Aviva does herself in, she preplans these over the top reactions in hopes of guaranteeing another season/contract on the show. Without these ridiculous reactions and her disgusting father she has NO storyline of interest IMO.

[ryebread]

Ramona's the only one who gets to go on blast?

Ramona wasn't Carole's good friend.  Ramona is never careful with her words and what she says - Ramona is Ramona.  She's a horse's ass. Heather, as Carole's very good friend should have informed Carole, off camera imo, of the further developments. 

[motorcitymom65]

Seems to me that if Heather really wanted to protect her friend, she might not have planned to meet and bait the enemy - on camera. When Carole seemed calm, Heather brought it up again at the party. Yes, to bring forth more information, but on camera?  I mean, Ramona is Ramona and is going to blast her mouth off when it suits her.

 

But Heather exacerbated that situation but ramping it up (on camera).  Did she really have to?  Her tone, in that clip, suggested to me that all the stuff she was suddenly laying at Carole's feet (on camera) should be addressed NOW by Carole (on camera).  Imo, that was bad advice. Heather, you said it yourself: This is Carole's career. Why are you messing with it?  On camera?  I think Heather would be having a cow by now if this was happening in reverse and it were her business that was being discussed and further brought to the forefront by Carole.

You could be right about Heather. I don't know because we haven't seen such a situation come up. It seems like Carole and Heather know each other very well and care about each other, so I find it hard to think that Carole would do anything that would intentionally hurt or upset Heather. I have seen nothing in her character to indicate such a thing. The difference is this deal had already been brought up on camera, and was being fed by Aviva. I also didn't see Heather in that clip doing anything to incite Carole. She was telling her what Aviva had said, nothing more. The person trying to get Carole to be confrontational, on camera, was Ramona. Of course once things got really going, Ramona fled, per usual.

[jelliebean]

 I also didn't see Heather in that clip doing anything to incite Carole. She was telling her what Aviva had said, nothing more. The person trying to get Carole to be confrontational, on camera, was Ramona. Of course once things got really going, Ramona fled, per usual.

I just watched it again. Heather and Carole were quietly talking about the gossip Aviva was spreading and at one point both were rolling their eyes and giggling at how ludicrous what Aviva said was. Ramona came in and lit the fuse.

In Aviva's "confessional" she pretty much admits it is gossip and spread it because Carole hurt her feelings. I guess Carole didn't put up a banner saying RAH RAH Aviva! You did it (with the help of a village)!

[comatoast]

And since Carole actually handed Aviva's leg back to her and sincerely told her that she needed help, tells me that she DID in fact acknowledge that Aviva's actions did not mean that Carole should engage in Aviva's behavior. In other words, Carole acknowledged that she had to take a step back and be the better person.

Thank you for your perspective in this, MatildaMoody. I also saw a glimmer of acknowledgment with she picked up Aviva's leg and gave it back to her, but then she lost me again.

Since we have no idea what she may have also said that was edited out of a hack job reunion episode, we have no clue whether or not she took further responsibility for her behavior during bookgate.

Agreed. But we also don't know if she engaged in even more of the Aviva-like behavior either. That might have been edited out as well.

I will even go so far as to say that we have no idea what Aviva said about her behavior regarding bookgate or any other gate.

 

With that one, I would be willing to bet it was more of:

Aviva, on the other hand, doesn't answer questions. She doesn't own, or even give me a glimpse of owning, her behavior. She simply gives vicious sound bites against her cast mates in the hopes that she will somehow be relevant to the show.

 

But the question posed wasn't about any regrets the women had regarding their behaviors. They were asked what they learned/took from the season, and there's really no "wrong" way of answering that.

Of course there is no wrong way to answer that, but how she answered it informed my opinion about her.

This is one of many problems with Aviva.  Everything always comes back to her.  Look at comment boards everywhere.  Someone might say Ramona is this but Aviva is that.  Carole is this, but Aviva is that.  A poster on another thread here said they loved Carole's book and it brought her to tears, yet at the end, all she could think of was what a bitch Aviva is.  I don't want to give her that much power. She just needs to go and get herself straight.  She's like toxic fumes.  She seeps into everything.

I believe Carol's behavior is being judged through the lens of Aviva's behavior, instead of as the separate entity that it is. If you take Aviva out of the equation, Carol's behavior is clearly inexcusable; however, in this case it is the result of anger from inexcusable actions against her so it is accepted and rationalized. I wonder if the situation was reversed and someone more likable had been the one to spread the ghostwriter rumors about someone less likeable and if the claims of Munchausen had come from someone like Aviva towards someone like Carol, what the reaction would have been.