S02.E08: Mercy

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

With time running out before the launch of the Europa Mission, Picard and Guinan must free themselves from FBI custody. Seven and Raffi come face-to-face with Jurati and the horror of what she's become.

Dropping Thursday, April 21, 2022.

[paigow]

Raffi... Still alive, old friend

[Stardancer Supreme]

So Soong himself is the Extinction Level Event, even though Renee Picard is still in play.   I like that we got a few answers but the production choices are still piss poor.  The whole Confederation storyline could have been condensed or skipped, really.   I'm just confused with how this story is supposed to be coming together.

If this season was supposed to be a ST: Voyage Home ripoff, it could have been written better.  

So did Raffi guilt Elnor into staying with her or did he consider Starfleet a better lost cause to take up instead of returning to the Qowat Milat? Didn't the QW leader tell Picard that Elnor didn't really belong with them so Picard should have taken him? Did I remember that correctly? This scene would have been better in Episode 1 or when Elnor died in the Confederation time. Again Production choices...

Hopefully Season 3 doesn't involve Time Travel Shenanigans.  I find that this show is more enjoyable once I turn my brain off.

 

[Zaffy]

I actually liked a lot this episode, best of the 2024 lot so far.
Loved the Guinan - Q scenes and Borgati and Soong together are creepy villains.
I still think the season suffers from writing, that seems filler in many cases. 

[thuganomics85]

Say what you will about how dicey it is for Rios to get romantically involved with someone from the past because, wow, that could easily send the timeline into beyond unexpected directions, but at least he knows that the best way to win over a single mother is to impress her kid.  And what better way to impress her kid than to not only let him play around with the spaceship but introduce him to the replicator!  Rios knows what that kid wants!  Let him eat all the replicated cake!

Turns out Jay Karnes' agent was so gung-ho to prove Picard and Guinan were aliens because he had a run in with Vulcans back when he was a child and that always haunted him (even though it seems like the Vulcans weren't trying to hurt him: just wanted to make him forget.)  But thanks to an assist from Guinan, Picard gives an epic speech that only Patrick Stewart can deliver, and the agent lets them go: even sabotaging his own career.  Again, it's kind of funny how Karnes character is kind of similar to the one he played in 12 Monkeys.  That might be his new thing now!

Kore finds out the truth about Soong and her origin, and bails thanks to an assist from Q.  Certainly didn't help that Soong decided to take the mad scientist approach to that revelation and was all "Sex is overrated!  I created you all by myself, so I'm a genius!" about it.  But now he's throwing in with good old Borg Queen Agnes, and they've got a newly assimilated army backing them!

The reason for Raffi's reactions to Elnor's death is because he was considering leaving Starfleet to go back to the Qowat Milat, but she basically guilt tripped him into staying.  This all feels kind of unnecessary.  I was fine with her just being upset because she lost someone close to her.

I know this show is titled Star Trek: Picard and he will always be my favorite, but there are times I really wished we focused more on Seven and how she deals with the history and connection to the Borg that will probably never leave her.  Jeri Ryan really shines when they give her the material for it.

[MissLucas]

I think I have literally lost the plot with regards to Soong. What was his path supposed to be like without any interference from the Borg Queen/Agnes?

I really liked the tension between Seven and Raffi. We've seen Raffi manipulate people before so Seven calling her out on it did not come out of the blue. And Seven frustration about being Borg Google was as palpable as her joy to gain knowledge by using social skills. The Elnor flasback was not necessary but Evan Evagora got at least a couple of minutes screen time.

Still not sure what Rios thinks he's doing.

The resolution of alien hunting FBI agent was ridiculous but so was that whole plotline. At least we now know Q is dying. But before he does he opens an Etsy shop selling cute little gift tags, clearly Q is into all things hipster - even fonts!

BQA (I decided she needs a cool acro) is quite the fashion maven. Keeps that red dress no matter how impractical it is, adds sexy slits, gets cool combat boots because villains need to look killer!

[marinw]

I enjoyed the episode a lot. When Theresa goes on about knowing Rios for ten years or something, I am thinking of some timey-wimey stuff where Rios travels back to 2014, meets Theresa and the kid is his son.

I am likeing this Guinan more and more. 

Allison Pill is killing it in more ways than one. She even has Annie Weschang's vioce down as the BQ.

What is that flower pendant on Q's jacket? It must be symbolic of something.

4 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Jeri Ryan really shines when they give her the material for it.

Agreed. There was an interview with her on The Centre Seat where Jeri says that although she is very gratefull for the role of Seven, she does not have great memories of her time on Voyager due to the costumes and animosity with the Voyager cast. Hope she is having some more fun with this show.

Edited April 22, 2022 by marinw

[paigow]

1 hour ago, marinw said:

 she does not have great memories of her time on Voyager due to the costumes and animosity with the Voyager cast. 

When your boyfriend [Braga] is the Exec Producer, your castmates will see you as a threat...

 

2 hours ago, MissLucas said:

The resolution of alien hunting FBI agent was ridiculous 

Why not drop the pretense and call him Mulder... FFS! Why were Vulcans poking around pre-Cochrane Earth?? So now First Contact is no longer canon??? Textbook Goldsman...

[DrBriCa]

30 minutes ago, paigow said:

Why were Vulcans poking around pre-Cochrane Earth?? So now First Contact is no longer canon???

Star Trek: Enterprise has an episode ("Carbon Creek") where T'Pol recounts a time when Vulcans crashed onto earth in the 20th century. So, we have seen Vulcans pre-First Contact, at least as much as anyone remembers ENT.

[Chicago Redshirt]

18 hours ago, MissLucas said:

I think I have literally lost the plot with regards to Soong. What was his path supposed to be like without any interference from the Borg Queen/Agnes?

BQA claims that Adam was going to die in a pool of his own 90-proof vomit. Who knows if she is telling the truth or just manipulating him into doing her bidding?

15 hours ago, paigow said:

Why were Vulcans poking around pre-Cochrane Earth?? So now First Contact is no longer canon??? Textbook Goldsman...

All First Contact established was that it was Cochrane's warp flight that got the Vulcans attention and made them decide to talk with humans. It's not contradictory to say that Vulcans had taken notice of humans before but did not engage them as equals. All of Trek has crews interacting with pre-warp civilizations on the down low. No reason to think the Vulcans would not.

[millennium]

This episode felt like a lot of general ideas that were never fleshed out but were filmed anyway.   It feels one-dimensional, like a story outline.  Dutch can just haul Picard and Guinan into the basement of a building without virtually anyone else knowing?   Dutch just caves because Picard assumes a soothing voice?   Soong can just order up mercenaries from where, Amazon Prime?   Borg-ati can do as she pleases in San Francisco, entirely unmolested or without attracting notice?   There's a disturbing lack of other people in these scenes.  The streets appear abandoned.   There's no sense that anything we're watching could be real, even if you suspend disbelief.   The interrogation at the FBI was a colossal waste of time in one of the final episodes.   Renee Picard has simply fallen off the radar in this episode despite that she's supposed to be the focus of Picard's mission to the past.   The Soong storyline with Isa Briones seems to serve no purpose at all other than to keep Isa Briones on screen.  

Just an awful, claustrophobic episode.  

[Hiyo]

Quote

I enjoyed the episode a lot

So did I.

Quote

All First Contact established was that it was Cochrane's warp flight that got the Vulcans attention and made them decide to talk with humans. It's not contradictory to say that Vulcans had taken notice of humans before but did not engage them as equals. All of Trek has crews interacting with pre-warp civilizations on the down low. No reason to think the Vulcans would not.

Exactly.

[marinw]

The failed mind meld reminded me of the TNG episode "Pen Pals" where Dr. Pulaski erased a girl's memory of Data. Thesame technique didn't work in "Who Watches TheWatchers".

[Chicago Redshirt]

6 hours ago, millennium said:

This episode felt like a lot of general ideas that were never fleshed out but were filmed anyway.   It feels one-dimensional, like a story outline.  Dutch can just haul Picard and Guinan into the basement of a building without virtually anyone else knowing?   Dutch just caves because Picard assumes a soothing voice?   Soong can just order up mercenaries from where, Amazon Prime?   Borg-ati can do as she pleases in San Francisco, entirely unmolested or without attracting notice?   There's a disturbing lack of other people in these scenes.  The streets appear abandoned.   There's no sense that anything we're watching could be real, even if you suspend disbelief.   The interrogation at the FBI was a colossal waste of time in one of the final episodes.   Renee Picard has simply fallen off the radar in this episode despite that she's supposed to be the focus of Picard's mission to the past.   The Soong storyline with Isa Briones seems to serve no purpose at all other than to keep Isa Briones on screen.  

Just an awful, claustrophobic episode.  

People noticed. That's presumably in part why Dutch got fired once.

Dutch caved not just because Picard had a soothing voice but because Picard treated him with respect and told him the truth. And, like Fox Mulder, who he was clearly modeled on, he wanted to believe.

Soong is rich and has connections. I think he got off the phone with a general in that scene. But it does not stretch belief that someone rich and connected could get mercenaries to his place within a matter of hours.

Borg-ati is in Los Angeles, and who says she has gone unmolested or without attracting notice? All we know that she has done is trash the karaoke joint (noticed -- the bar employee explained that he decided to not call the cops on her), take the bar patron and try to seduce him and then kill him (no particular reason why it should have been noticed earlier than it was by Seven and Raffi, since it was in a secluded spot), swipe metal from various cars and attack Raffi and Seven, and then go to Soong's house. None of these things were things that were so blatant that they should have by definition drawn more notice than they did.

I suppose there are relatively few people, but then I guess the question is when in the day/week is this supposed to be taking place? If it's like 6-8 a.m. on a weekend, the lack of people makes sense. If it's more like the afternoon, less so. 

Picard thinks that Renee is supposed to be the focus. It's entirely possible that he is partially or entirely wrong.

If we are to believe Borg-ati, it is about whether Renee Picard brings back a sentient lifeform from the Europa mission. If she does, then Soong becomes irrelevant. If she doesn't, Soong becomes prominent and this leads to the Confederation future. Part of why he leads to the Confederation future presumably has to do with the cloning and his success in creating Kore.

[millennium]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

People noticed. That's presumably in part why Dutch got fired once.

Dutch caved not just because Picard had a soothing voice but because Picard treated him with respect and told him the truth. And, like Fox Mulder, who he was clearly modeled on, he wanted to believe.

Soong is rich and has connections. I think he got off the phone with a general in that scene. But it does not stretch belief that someone rich and connected could get mercenaries to his place within a matter of hours.

Borg-ati is in Los Angeles, and who says she has gone unmolested or without attracting notice? All we know that she has done is trash the karaoke joint (noticed -- the bar employee explained that he decided to not call the cops on her), take the bar patron and try to seduce him and then kill him (no particular reason why it should have been noticed earlier than it was by Seven and Raffi, since it was in a secluded spot), swipe metal from various cars and attack Raffi and Seven, and then go to Soong's house. None of these things were things that were so blatant that they should have by definition drawn more notice than they did.

I suppose there are relatively few people, but then I guess the question is when in the day/week is this supposed to be taking place? If it's like 6-8 a.m. on a weekend, the lack of people makes sense. If it's more like the afternoon, less so. 

Picard thinks that Renee is supposed to be the focus. It's entirely possible that he is partially or entirely wrong.

If we are to believe Borg-ati, it is about whether Renee Picard brings back a sentient lifeform from the Europa mission. If she does, then Soong becomes irrelevant. If she doesn't, Soong becomes prominent and this leads to the Confederation future. Part of why he leads to the Confederation future presumably has to do with the cloning and his success in creating Kore.

I have no problem fan-wanking from time to time, but this series seems to demand it with each new scene.

There's no texture to this series, no finesse.   It's all broad strokes, applied in a hurried fashion.  The style, at best, could be described as workmanlike.   Perfunctory.

I envy your ability to be so forgiving of what to me is a tragic wasted opportunity.   At this point, I'm thinking it would have been better to leave Picard as we last saw him in Nemesis.

[norcalgal]

31 minutes ago, millennium said:

I have no problem fan-wanking from time to time, but this series seems to demand it with each new scene.

I feel the same way. Since there are only 2(?) episodes left, I'll plow on through to the end.

As for S3, since most of the ST:TNG cast will appear, I will likely tune in. In my mind, I'll just view ST:Picard Season 3 as a continuation of ST:TNG, rather than S3 of Picard.  (I hope that's not too confusing.)

[tennisgurl]

I am not surprised at all that Soong is behind the bad future, what an absolute mess that whole family is, someone needs to permanently remove their cloning tubes. Including the writers, I am going to need a major break from them and their clone's for the foreseeable future. I was excited for a new story this season, be it the gang going to the past, the bad future, Picard's childhood, the Borg, everyone being back in Starfleet, Q, there were so many ideas thrown out in the start of the season but now its all been taken over by more clones, although I am at least glad that its being folded more into the future/Borg story. I might not love the clone stuff, but I will appreciate it more if they can wrap all of these threads together. Of course now he's throwing his lot in with the Borg Queen, because what else would a mad scientist do when their favorite lab experiment runs off? This is why mad scientists don't often make great parents, be it for their biological kids or for their living experiments. 

So we find out that the reason Wells is so obsessed with aliens is because he met some Vulcans as a kid who did a partial mind meld on him. So its a real good news/bad news for him, he loses his job but he also got confirmation that aliens are real and that he was right all along. Few people are immune to a full Picard speech. It also amuses me whenever people from the past just cannot contemplate that people from the future are from Earth, like the "I'm from Chile/Iowa line" and aren't aliens. Some people just work in space guys. Picard is obviously from France, cant you tell from his very British accent?* 

Raffi's guilt over Elnor's death was sad, but it seems a bit unnecessary, it works just as well that she lost a good friend and felt powerless to do anything about it. I miss having real Elnor around, and yeah I am sure he'll be back for the finale once the good future is back, but he is my favorite character on the show and I've missed him. 

Rios and this lady cannot end well, what is his plan? Take her and the kid to the future? Stay in the past? I can just hear the guys from the Federations time travel department rolling their eyes with frustration as we speak...

I am really glad that this show has let Jeri Ryan really show her stuff, she's doing great work as Seven. She was obviously great in Voyager as well, but I like exploring a Seven more in touch with her humanity while still feeling alienated from it.

*Yeah I know that they answered why everyone in future France is British, but the agents don't know that. And its still funny.

Edited April 24, 2022 by tennisgurl

[millennium]

42 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

 Few people are immune to a full Picard speech.

I love this, lol.

[MissLucas]

14 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

BQA claims that Adam was going to die in a pool of his own 90-proof vomit. Who knows if she is telling the truth or just manipulating him into doing her bidding?

That was her worst case scenario but what about her best case scenario? He becomes the hero of humankind getting statues honoring him - that was her manipulating him too, right? So what is his trajectory without any 24th century interference? Whenever I try to get all the Soongs in the right order and who did what I end up confused. So I have no idea if this Soong has already had a place in canon or is he a new addition - another piece of 21th century history that has been missing until now?

[Chicago Redshirt]

8 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

That was her worst case scenario but what about her best case scenario? He becomes the hero of humankind getting statues honoring him - that was her manipulating him too, right? So what is his trajectory without any 24th century interference? Whenever I try to get all the Soongs in the right order and who did what I end up confused. So I have no idea if this Soong has already had a place in canon or is he a new addition - another piece of 21th century history that has been missing until now?

I am not into Star Trek novels, so I am assuming this is the first we are hearing of Adam Soong. We'll have to see if the Borg Queen is to be taken at face value at any of her statements. Personally, I would love it if the Borg Queen just made all this up about how 2024 was the point of divergence and just was looking for a place where she could escape and the tech just didn't exist to stop her once freed.

My understanding of the Soong history given Picard:

Adam Soong: We're seeing him now in Picard S2 in 2024. He apparently had some success with genetic engineering to create Kore. My speculation is he has some connection to the Eugenics Wars and Khan.

Arik Soong: We saw him in Enterprise S4 circa 2154. He had created the genetically engineered Augments (and Klingons messing around with genetic engineering led to them being the smooth-foreheaded variety of early TOS). After the shenanigans he talks about switching to robotics.

Noonian Soong: In the mid-2300s, he created Data, Lore, B4, an android version of his wife and possibly others that we have yet to meet. The idea was always floated that there was something unique in how he did it that could not be duplicated. Which of course is sort of ridiculous and anti-scientific. Clearly one should be able to repeat a process and have approximately the same result. 

Altan Soong: In Picard S1, he helped create a whole community of synthetic life.

[Starchild]

Odd that both this work and this face are repeated through the centuries. How many of us are doing the same jobs as our great-great-grandparents?

I can see Adam's ancestors hanging on to pictures of him and when another one is born and looks exactly like Adam they're all "oops, looks like you're the one that has to go into the cloning/artificial life field, good luck, don't fuck it up this time"

[HighQueenEB]

2 hours ago, Starchild said:

Odd that both this work and this face are repeated through the centuries. How many of us are doing the same jobs as our great-great-grandparents?

I can see Adam's ancestors hanging on to pictures of him and when another one is born and looks exactly like Adam they're all "oops, looks like you're the one that has to go into the cloning/artificial life field, good luck, don't fuck it up this time"

Have you ever looked at pictures of the Windsors?  There is a remarkable resemblance between Edward VII and Prince Michael of Kent, and that's just one example off the top of my head.  Of course, the business of being British royalty isn't quite the same as genetics/robotics/science-y stuff.  ;)

[chaifan]

I liked this episode, but not sure why, because I also agree with a lot of the criticism stated above.  But I liked Picard being able to be Picard again, and Guinan finally felt like Guinan to me.  As always, the Rafi & Seven show is the most entertaining part, and throw in a little BQA, and that was a great scene.  And as for Q, I like the aspect of Q dying, but is it the whole Q continuum, or just this particular Q?  I wasn't clear on that.  Also, just to be a bit shallow, John DeLancie plays the silver fox villain in black very nicely.  

Here are the things that don't match up to me...  The Confederation timeline...  how do we get there from here?  Let's say BQA and Soong succeed and tank the Europa mission. Doesn't that just lead to the Borg taking over Earth and our galaxy in 2024?  How does Soong get the upper hand and capture BQA, leaving us with the 1/2 Queen the Confederation had? 

And then there's the Adam Soong bloodline.  He has no children.  How do we get all those other Soongs for the remainder of the Star Trek timeline?  (I posted about this in another episode thread.)  Does Kore survive and then make a Soong clone to continue with the genetics work?  Has Soong already cloned himself, with other versions waiting in the wings to be awakened when he dies? 

One of my local stations has the full Star Trek line up going every evening, and I will watch Voyager every now and then.  They're currently about 1/2 way through the season when Seven arrives.  Watching what Jeri Ryan does now with Seven makes me look at Voyager and get a little pissed off that they kept Seven so very much restrained to about 2 emotions during the season.  (Exaggerating a bit, but you know what I mean.)  I just think what Seven could have been even back then, and it would have been so much better.  I'm glad Ryan has had a chance to rehabilitate the character and let her grow.

And, as just a weird side note.... am I the only one who sees Evan Evagora's name and my brain reads it as Eva Longoria???  Is it just me?  I so want for those two to be in a movie or show together just to see if interviewers also trip over the two names. 

 

[Chit Chat]

I've always hated anything Borg, so seeing this turn into another Borg-centric show disappoints me.  I found most of this episode yawn-worthy too.    

[SnarkShark]

Borg stuff.

 

Yawn.

[tessaray]

28 minutes ago, chaifan said:

And, as just a weird side note.... am I the only one who sees Evan Evagora's name and my brain reads it as Eva Longoria???  Is it just me?  I so want for those two to be in a movie or show together just to see if interviewers also trip over the two names. 

Nope. I have to stop and back up every time his name comes up. 

[Hiyo]

Personally I enjoy the Borg, so win win for me.

[Haleth]

So the whole point of the FBI raid and interrogation by the cop was so Q could pop in and reveal he's dying?  Other than that the whole sequence seems pointless.  Maybe the cop will come back before the end of the season and help the crew out, but he served no purpose in moving the plot forward.  (At the least Picard should have told him not to worry about the Vulcans, it will be all right.)

I'm finally warming up to NewGuinan and it seems she's done.

That veiled Borg queen in the first episode?  That's Agnes under that veil, isn't it? ☹️

[Pallas]

13 hours ago, MissLucas said:

He becomes the hero of humankind getting statues honoring him - that was her manipulating him too, right?

That's what we saw in the Confederation: as Queen Agnes said, the Colossus-sized statue in the harbor, engraved with the name ADAM SOONG, with a tape loop of him intoning that Earth belonged to humans. How many of them clones, drones, or both? 

[MissLucas]

25 minutes ago, Pallas said:

That's what we saw in the Confederation: as Queen Agnes said, the Colossus-sized statue in the harbor, engraved with the name ADAM SOONG, with a tape loop of him intoning that Earth belonged to humans. How many of them clones, drones, or both? 

Oh! I had somehow forgotten about that, thanks! 

Edited April 23, 2022 by MissLucas

[Pallas]

Now of course, Queen Agnes is manipulating Soong with this vision as well, because "Founding Father Adam Soong" is the outcome in which the humans conquered the Borg, and the Queen was about to be executedby General Picard. She has something else in mind: both of her. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

3 hours ago, Haleth said:

So the whole point of the FBI raid and interrogation by the cop was so Q could pop in and reveal he's dying?  Other than that the whole sequence seems pointless.  Maybe the cop will come back before the end of the season and help the crew out, but he served no purpose in moving the plot forward.  (At the least Picard should have told him not to worry about the Vulcans, it will be all right.)

I'm finally warming up to NewGuinan and it seems she's done.

That veiled Borg queen in the first episode?  That's Agnes under that veil, isn't it? ☹️

Picard basically said: "It wasn't a monster. It was a Vulcan. He wasn't trying to kill you. He was trying to mind-meld. trying to erase the memory so you wouldn't be haunted like this. Clearly it failed."

If the writers had wanted to, they could have had Q pop up anywhere and admit he's dying. From a plot perspective, it might just be a diversion. Or it might be that Wells proves to be a needed ally in the next few episodes. Or it may be that the sequence was a hedge against the notion that Picard and co could just be running rampant through LA without any obstacles. Or the point isn't the plot development, but a thematic one. Picard is confronted with the notion of dealing with someone's trauma as he has been several times this season -- his own childhood trauma/his mother's, Raffi's at losing Elnor, probably other examples I am not thinking of. For the first time, he is able to help someone breakthrough. 

It seems likely that the Borg Queen we saw in episode 1 is Borg-ati. But I suppose they could swerve and have it be Talin or no one in particular.

[millennium]

7 hours ago, Haleth said:

That veiled Borg queen in the first episode?  That's Agnes under that veil, isn't it? ☹️

Oh!

[Passing Strange]

17 hours ago, chaifan said:

And, as just a weird side note.... am I the only one who sees Evan Evagora's name and my brain reads it as Eva Longoria???

Heh, my brain does this, too. Also, since I watch with captions, every time it says Elnor I see Elinor.

[MissLucas]

It's either Eva Longoria or Elrond for me 🤷‍♀️

[Joimiaroxeu]

I kept waiting for Soong to say to Kore, "I brought you into this world and I can take you out!"

This show has me completely lost. I feel like I shouldn't need PhD-level knowledge of all Star Trek canon across all the TV shows, movies, graphic novels, etc., for me to be able to follow a storyline. At this point I am mainly only watching out of loyalty to Sir Patrick and Jean-Luc.

[paigow]

3 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

I feel like I shouldn't need PhD-level knowledge of all Star Trek canon across all the TV shows, movies, graphic novels, etc.,

Who does need it?? Maybe writers and showrunners...

[Starchild]

5 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

It seems likely that the Borg Queen we saw in episode 1 is Borg-ati. But I suppose they could swerve and have it be Talin or no one in particular.

But how would she cross universes? Queen Agnes is in the alternate Confederation universe, but the Veiled Queen is in our original prime universe. Does Q bring them all back home, including the Borg? 

[MissLucas]

 

34 minutes ago, Starchild said:

But how would she cross universes? Queen Agnes is in the alternate Confederation universe, but the Veiled Queen is in our original prime universe. Does Q bring them all back home, including the Borg? 

Flavored with a bit of alternative timeline/universe sprinkles.

Edited April 23, 2022 by MissLucas

[Pallas]

In this story there's only one universe, with two timelines. Queen Agnes is in the 2024 "before"" of what we know as both the Federation and Confederation present. How does she appear on the bridge of the Stargazer, where commoner-Agnes is already standing?  She's appearing from some other moment in that timeline. Which is probably how she was able to beam right on board. Perhaps using Tallinn's time/space transporter.

[salaydouk]

11 hours ago, Haleth said:

That veiled Borg queen in the first episode?  That's Agnes under that veil, isn't it? ☹️

Actually I think its Kore...  because the Isa Briones' role in Season 3 is not contingent on Kore surviving Season 2. 

44 minutes ago, Pallas said:

In this story there's only one universe, with two timelines. Queen Agnes is in the 2024 "before"" of what we know as both the Federation and Confederation present. How does she appear on the bridge of the Stargazer, where commoner-Agnes is already standing?  She's appearing from some other moment in that timeline. Which is probably how she was able to beam right on board. Perhaps using Tallinn's time/space transporter.

Potentially not accurate - remember at the top of Episode1, the rift that brought the Borg ship into the Prime universe was said to be a Space/Time rift.  So we don't know from which universe that Borg Ship is from and we don't know what time it is from.   Also since we know in the Prime Universe the Borg are functionally hobbled/destroyed, so where did that massive Borg ship come from if not from another universe? Could a collective created by BQ/Agnes in 2024 grown that massive while attempting to get back to future?  Possible.  And if so _why_ would they even want to go back into the future when there was an entire planet, of easy pickings, in 2024 to assimilate and restart the collective from the past?

Regarding how could Agnes be in two places at the same time, if the Borg queen we saw in Episode1 was Agnes, that would be dictated by "when" that Borg ship came through that time rift.  The Borg ship simply came through the Space/Time rift too early.  Also as shown in Voyage Home when Kirk and company came back via the slingshot technique, they actually returned the same moment in time as they left but days have actually had to pass at least for Kirk and his crew.  We know this because at the top of the movie and at the end of the movie shows Admiral Cartwright saying, "Get him back. Get him back," as the Klingon BofP is showing going into and then coming back from the past.

20 hours ago, chaifan said:

 And as for Q, I like the aspect of Q dying, but is it the whole Q continuum, or just this particular Q?  I wasn't clear on that.  Also, just to be a bit shallow, John DeLancie plays the silver fox villain in black very nicely.  

And then there's the Adam Soong bloodline.  He has no children.  How do we get all those other Soongs for the remainder of the Star Trek timeline?  (I posted about this in another episode thread.)  Does Kore survive and then make a Soong clone to continue with the genetics work?  Has Soong already cloned himself, with other versions waiting in the wings to be awakened when he dies? 

And, as just a weird side note.... am I the only one who sees Evan Evagora's name and my brain reads it as Eva Longoria???  Is it just me?  I so want for those two to be in a movie or show together just to see if interviewers also trip over the two names. 

I have the same question about Q dying... is it just him or all of them? And when are they dying off?  Since they were practically omnipotent and can jump willy nilly, when are they actually dying? (And what impact does that have to the ST:TOS episode Squire of Gothos - if non-canon declaration of Trelane being a Q turns out to be true.) Like Guinan said, the ritual should have summon a Q not just the Q we are normally used to dealing with... so if none could show up except the one the one that was already on the planet, it seems to point to the whole Continuum being in trouble. 

As for the potential Soong's in the future... Adam Soong could have more family - brothers, nephews, sisters, nieces, etc that would continue his work. 

And nope right there with you on Evan Evagora's name... My brain goes to the same place... 

 

On a final note, what I found most bother some about this episode is finding out the transporter has been corrupted by BQ/Agnes and is off line?!?!  So how the heck did Seven/Raffi get on and off La Sirena, how did Rios and the Doc and her Kid get onto La Sirena?  Did it not go down until after Rios took the ship into diagnostic mode?  And finally why the heck did Rios not get the Doc and her kid off La Sirena because he has to know BQ/Agnes are coming for the ship?!?!? 

Edited April 23, 2022 by salaydouk

[norcalgal]

21 minutes ago, salaydouk said:

On a final note, what I found most bother some about this episode is finding out the transporter has been corrupted by BQ/Agnes and is off line?!?!  So how the heck did Seven/Raffi get on and off La Sirena, how did Rios and the Doc and her Kid get onto La Sirena?  Did it not go down until after Rios took the ship into diagnostic mode?  And finally why the heck did Rios not get the Doc and her kid off La Sirena because he has to know BQ/Agnes are coming for the ship?!?!? 

It’s obvious you put more thought into this than the writers…

[salaydouk]

1 hour ago, norcalgal said:

It’s obvious you put more thought into this than the writers…

That doesn't seem to be too hard which is sad... 

[ML89]

On 4/22/2022 at 5:53 AM, millennium said:

 

This episode felt like a lot of general ideas that were never fleshed out but were filmed anyway.

 

So…Borg-ati takes the cellphone for the lithium…but they don’t have her drain some Teslas after that? I thought she was calling up some Borg with the satellites and then what are they going to do?

The whole Soong stuff was even more tedious, and then he turns up with his own legion. How did he get the money again?

Imitation Mulder and his endless forest chase, which was knock off X-Files, down to the flashlight. I hope there was some point to that but I’m not hopeful. When he was going on about stopping  mission control, I was thinking yeah, not that easy.

On another note, why does this show have two minutes of opening credits?

 

[millennium]

5 hours ago, salaydouk said:

(And what impact does that have to the ST:TOS episode Squire of Gothos - if non-canon declaration of Trelane being a Q turns out to be true.)

Trelane a Q?  His powers were dependent upon a machine.   The Thasians (Charlie X) seemed more Q than Trelane.

[salaydouk]

12 minutes ago, millennium said:

Trelane a Q?  His powers were dependent upon a machine.   The Thasians (Charlie X) seemed more Q than Trelane.

You mean the machine that the Enterprise crew destroys yet when they warp away they keep returning to Gothos?  It has been a long time since I saw Charlie X, but if I remember correctly the Thasians were unable to repair/restore something... if they were Q I think they would have.  But could they be - sure. In the end it is all non-canon. I believe the speculation that Trelane was Q was done in a book and I don't think the Thasians have ever been see/heard from again so there is no way to know. 

[tessaray]

24 minutes ago, millennium said:

Trelane a Q?  His powers were dependent upon a machine.   The Thasians (Charlie X) seemed more Q than Trelane.

Trelane wasn't dependent on a machine. His non-corporeal parents made him come home. 

[millennium]

6 hours ago, salaydouk said:

You mean the machine that the Enterprise crew destroys yet when they warp away they keep returning to Gothos?  It has been a long time since I saw Charlie X, but if I remember correctly the Thasians were unable to repair/restore something... if they were Q I think they would have.  But could they be - sure. In the end it is all non-canon. I believe the speculation that Trelane was Q was done in a book and I don't think the Thasians have ever been see/heard from again so there is no way to know. 

They didn't quite destroy it.   It sparked and smoked and burned, but it didn't altogether dematerialize as it would have if struck by a phaser.   I mean, Kirk hit it with a musket ball.   I always understood Trelane fixed the machine after they fled -- he was an advanced life form, after all.

The Thasians had the ability to restore things Charlie changed, but not casualties/losses in consequence of the things Charlie changed.  For example, they could have restored the failing baffle plate on the Antares that Charlie caused to blow, resulting in the ship's explosion.  Maybe even the Antares itself.  But they couldn't restore the lives lost.   I wish they had shown that the crewmember turned into an iguana had been restored, not to mention the "NO LAUGHING!" crewwoman who lost all her facial features (how did she breathe?).   It has always bothered me.

6 hours ago, tessaray said:

Trelane wasn't dependent on a machine. His non-corporeal parents made him come home. 

The latter part is true.  But Kirk fired into the machine, temporarily depriving Trelane of his powers.   Based on the episode, he was indeed dependent upon the machine.

Edited April 24, 2022 by millennium

[Frozendiva]

Soong reminded me of Flint from Requiem for Methuselah and the various versions of Rayna. Maybe he too does not age and only does so superficially.

The fake Fox Mulder? Right down to the office in the basement, the forest, the flashlight… just missing the FBI’s most unwanted and a few conspiracies.

Quagnes sure had superhuman strength. She managed to pull a lithium battery out of a cellphone and then find Soong?

I wouldn’t have minded some cake either.

[paigow]

8 hours ago, millennium said:

Trelane a Q?  His powers were dependent upon a machine. 

Even Apollo needed a power source