S03.E12: Negative Space

[jewel21]

Quote

Owen fears the past is back to haunt him when a stalker targets him and Catherine. Meanwhile, Tommy and Gillian face consequences when Gillian saves the life of a woman wearing a "Do Not Resuscitate" bracelet.

 Airdate: 03/28/2022

[yourdreamer]

Well. At least Julie Benz was in the beginning of the season and did come back. But I did not expect like that. (I was remarking to my SO that there are 3 Whedon-verse actresses on tonight’s show - Torres, Acker, and Benz). Glad to see Julie was acting more like the Darla back on Buffy!

[shapeshifter]

Wow. If TPTB are writing for viewers that like their heroes punching faces and expressing sadistic ideation, I may be done with this show.
I thought for sure Owen was going to be sent to anger management classes. 
Maybe next week?

Maybe the Anger Management class can be taught by Charlie Sheen (he actually had a show titled that in which he had that job and I think he is out of work now) and Will Smith can guest start to get a little image rehabilitation.

Edited March 29, 2022 by shapeshifter

[anna0852]

I give the show credit for not making Owen a hero for throwing those punches. He got suspended over Billy, Catherine was super pissed about the bar guy and he ended up with a restraining order over the dirty deputy. 

It's still too many and Owen's violent streak does need to be disposed of.

[preeya]

Julie Benz is showing us her "Dexter side."

 

ETA: The guy in hospital had third degree burns yet his mustache survived. 

Edited March 29, 2022 by preeya

[NeenerNeener]

I have to admit that I didn't recognize Julie Benz until tonight when she said "you came for me". It was the dark hair (and botox and fillers), I guess. 

[Lady Calypso]

Well, that was one way to conclude Julie Benz's arc. Make her character a stalker and murderer! The episode went the way I expected it to (lots of punching, Owen being a hero) but then added some nice new twists (Marjan saving the day, the stalker, Carlos getting a surprisingly substantial scene).

Owen needs to stop punching people, though. For real.

The Nancy/Tommy plot was decent. Hey, the show remembered Nancy exists! Even if it concluded rather nicely, I do think it was an important lesson to be taught, to respect a person's DNR. 

Interesting that TK being drugged means (for him) that he "relapsed" and is back to Day 1. I would think a forced drugging situation wouldn't count as a relapse, but he does have to go through the after-effects so I guess it's better to be safe than sorry. But it's yet another situation where TK was in danger/harmed. That's a sixth plot like that, right?

Not a horrible episode, overall. It was just ok.

[shapeshifter]

7 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Interesting that TK being drugged means (for him) that he "relapsed" and is back to Day 1. I would think a forced drugging situation wouldn't count as a relapse, but he does have to go through the after-effects so I guess it's better to be safe than sorry.

Drugs put into a body have an effect.  
Drugs put into an addict’s body have additional effects and consequences.

</end shapeshifter’s PSA>

Edited March 29, 2022 by shapeshifter

[EllaWycliffe]

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

Interesting that TK being drugged means (for him) that he "relapsed" and is back to Day 1.

Thats the Narcotics Anonymous and Alcoholics Anonymous brainwashing talking. Don't get me wrong, their philosophy does help the rock bottom addicts - and that probably includes TK - but there are other ways to "get clean" that don't depend on "I will always be an addict, I will never be able to control myself with alcohol/drugs. I must never use again". But yes, under the philosophy in these programs, TK officially relapsed and is at Day One.

Mind you, I find it hard to believe he didn't recieve opiate pain killers when he was shot in the chest....

And now that we've had two instances where TK was on the edge, both this season, I am sure this season will end with the reveal that TK is secretly using again. 

[iMonrey]

I liked the twist with Julie Benz being the stalker. I thought it was stupid that the dirty cop got away with murder and was able to keep harassing them. But I liked the scene where Marjan got up on the grocery store counter and told everyone the security guard was a murderer. Overall pretty good episode, I needed something lighter after the heavy 911 episode that preceded it.

Quote

Wow. If TPTB are writing for viewers that like their heroes punching faces and expressing sadistic ideation, I may be done with this show.

I don't think they are; the other characters definitely reacted as though it were a problem rather than an admirable quality of Owen's. That said, they did kind of play it for laughs. Of course when they filmed this episode they had no way of knowing what would happen at the Oscars or that it would be all anyone was talking about the next day so it felt particularly ironic and tone deaf because of that.

[marceline]

This episode worked my nerves. Everybody running off half-cocked and not thinking anything through. Marjan making a public scene at the market, Owen punching everyone all the time, Owen taking Catherine on a stakeout, Nancy ignoring the DNR (she needs to be fired for that, BTW), etc... The only grownup on the show seems to be Tommy.

Julie Benz going all stalkery was a twist I didn't see coming so kudos to the show for surprising me.

Edited March 29, 2022 by marceline

[eel21788]

44 minutes ago, marceline said:

 Nancy ignoring the DNR (she needs to be fired for that, BTW), etc..

When they told the woman they would make it right with her, I thought they were going to offer her an assisted suicide scenario. What did they actually do to rectify it?

[eel21788]

13 hours ago, preeya said:

The guy in hospital had third degree burns yet his mustache survived. 

Does this show even have a medical consultant? They also botched the resuscitation with more than just ignoring the DNR: you always start with the AIRWAY, not go straight for the defibrillator.

It also amazes me how it always only takes one kick to break down the door. When my father was in a locked house and the EMTs had to get him out, they first took a sledgehammer to the doorknob. They didn't kick the door until the doorknob was totally separated from the door. Fortunately, there wasn't also a deadbolt engaged. 

[shapeshifter]

42 minutes ago, eel21788 said:

When they told the woman they would make it right with her, I thought they were going to offer her an assisted suicide scenario. What did they actually do to rectify it?

Unfortunately--and I really mean unfortunately--assisted suicide is not a legal option in most states, and even when it is, it is very difficult to obtain, which means those who are suffering the most rarely have the resources (physical, emotional, social, etc.) to jump through the hoops.
I recently read about a family going to Europe for a $10,000 death with dignity for their suffering, terminally ill relative. Sounds like a better use of their funds than a funeral.

[kwnyc]

6 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Interesting that TK being drugged means (for him) that he "relapsed" and is back to Day 1. I would think a forced drugging situation wouldn't count as a relapse,

Actually, that probably doesn't count as a slip. If an addict accidentally ingests a narcotic substance, or in his case, is drugged, he shouldn't have to start counting days again. (My reference is the episode of "Mom" when the girls accidentally ate some pot brownies. It is about intention...but they were pretty on-point about working the program.)

I also totally called that the stalker was not the dirty cop, but the artist as soon as Owen rescued her. 

[eel21788]

10 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Unfortunately--and I really mean unfortunately--assisted suicide is not a legal option in most states

Would that stop the writers of this show?

10 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

 it is very difficult to obtain, which means those who are suffering the most rarely have the resources (physical, emotional, social, etc.) to jump through the hoops.

If you're in a Catholic hospital, you're probably out of luck even in a legal state (this is speaking from experience with my mother). However, by the time you get to hospice, they'll usually cooperate.  

There are also ways to expedite the process yourself without the "assisted" part. When my father decided he was done, he stopped taking his digoxin. His heart was too damaged to pump without it, so it only took 52 hours to exceed the half-life of his last dose. 

[marceline]

8 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Interesting that TK being drugged means (for him) that he "relapsed" and is back to Day 1. I would think a forced drugging situation wouldn't count as a relapse, but he does have to go through the after-effects so I guess it's better to be safe than sorry. But it's yet another situation where TK was in danger/harmed. That's a sixth plot like that, right?

The problem is that accidental drugging can send him back into cravings which leaves him vulnerable to a real relapse.

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, marceline said:

The problem is that accidental drugging can send him back into cravings which leaves him vulnerable to a real relapse.

Yes.

 

3 hours ago, kwnyc said:

I also totally called that the stalker was not the dirty cop, but the artist as soon as Owen rescued her.

It was like they cast Julie Benz for the part just so she could deliver that line in her distinctive voice: “You saved me.”  
Or maybe they wrote the Krazy Killer Lady rescue plot once they realized the potential of her voice to deliver the “You saved me” line.

Edited March 29, 2022 by shapeshifter

[DearEvette]

If they wanted to have Owen tussle down kidnappers, investigate arson, foil human traffickers, and do stakeouts why not just make him a cop a la Athena?  I feel like a broken record but the writing for him is really ridiculous.  The people on this show really want to be writing a cop show. 

At least with Carlos and Grace last week it made sense since Carlos really is a cop. 

An once again we only get one real 911 rescue call and it is really a stealth Nancy story that does her no favors. i love Tommy and all, but Nancy needed a come to Jesus talk about ignoring that DNR.  I am glad the woman stuck to her guns initially and refused to drop the lawsuit.  Of course the show had to undo all of that and have her drop it anyway and die.  Very convenient and neat resolution.

I knew the museum lady was the real stalker the minute she was introduced, the deputy was too obvious and she was giving off signals. 

One thing that I found as awkward dialogue was at the beginning when Carlos' dad was questioning Owen about who had a access to the house he said "my son TK." and the way he delivered the line it was as if Carlos' dad was a stranger and did not know TK was his son.  It just struck me as an odd line and the delivery wasn't the way someone would answer they father of the guy your son was living with.

[eel21788]

 

8 hours ago, EllaWycliffe said:

I find it hard to believe he didn't recieve opiate pain killers when he was shot in the chest....

 

1 hour ago, marceline said:

The problem is that accidental drugging can send him back into cravings which leaves him vulnerable to a real relapse.

Which is more likely to happen with an "accidental" overdose ingestion than when you're taking it for legitimate pain at a confirmed therapeutic dose.

[CoderLady]

9 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Interesting that TK being drugged means (for him) that he "relapsed" and is back to Day 1. I would think a forced drugging situation wouldn't count as a relapse, but he does have to go through the after-effects so I guess it's better to be safe than sorry.

 

1 hour ago, marceline said:

The problem is that accidental drugging can send him back into cravings which leaves him vulnerable to a real relapse.

The same thing happened to Bobby on the other 9-1-1 show. A grateful hippie lady brought the firehouse a pan of LSD-laced brownies after they'd saved her from some situation but of course didn't tell them about the enhancement. IIRC Bobby got really strange and had to be talked down off a ledge because he was hallucinating his dead daughter. Afterwards he had to go to a whole lot of extra support meetings.

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, DearEvette said:

I knew the museum lady was the real stalker the minute she was introduced, the deputy was too obvious and she was giving off signals. 

Do you mean you knew the museum lady was the real stalker at the beginning of this episode?
Or do you mean when she was introduced at the beginning of the season during the snowmageddon when she was living in a cabin neighboring Owen's?

I thought they may have originally planned her to be Owen's season love interest, but, now that you mention it, she was always kind of "off," but I kept telling myself that it's just the actor's (Julie Benz') style.

Edited March 30, 2022 by shapeshifter

[DearEvette]

38 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Do you mean you knew the museum lady was the real stalker at the beginning of this episode?
Or do you mean when she was introduced at the beginning of the season during the snowmageddon when she was living in a cabin neighboring Owen's?

This episode.  I thought she was a one and done during snowmageddon.  But her coming back now, with Owen having a girlfriend kicked off my spidey senses.

[Bruinsfan]

I do remember initially thinking Julie Benz's character was in cahoots with Murder Deputy because she's great at playing villains and I didn't think Tim Minear would bring her on just to play Owen's potential love interest and then drop her. But this episode had me fooled until Carlos' reaction to the footage.

I thought Nancy's storyline was well done, and they made Carlos surprisingly quick on his feet and good at insincerely drawing the real story out of Sadie. I also really liked that they aren't playing Owen's belligerence up as a good character trait.

[iMonrey]

Quote

  The people on this show really want to be writing a cop show. 

That's not unique to this show, they pretty much do the same thing with 911 and Chicago Fire. They just can't seem to get enough mileage out of fire and rescue stories, for some reason. They always want to throw in these mysteries they have to go investigate. 

[DearEvette]

But the OG 911 has Athena and use her appropriately for their cop stuff.  They keep Bobby in his lane.

This show has Carlos and his dad and could theoretically use them for their cop stuff and remember that Owen is a fire chief.  But because they need to make sure everyone remembers this is a Rob Lowe star vehicle they show-horn him into everything. 

[circumvent]

The mention of Billy gave me the idea, never to be fulfilled, that they would just ditch Rob Lowe and bad acting and get Billy Burke to bring all the sarcasm. The show would still suck but at least with would suck with excellent snark. 

[shapeshifter]

4 hours ago, circumvent said:

The mention of Billy gave me the idea, never to be fulfilled, that they would just ditch Rob Lowe and bad acting and get Billy Burke to bring all the sarcasm. The show would still suck but at least with would suck with excellent snark. 

There isn't much room for Billy Burke's snark on this show, but, good for him!, he's got a new show that seems like it is more suited for the character of his that we appreciate: 
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt16098700/?ref_=nm_flmg_act_1

[circumvent]

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

There isn't much room for Billy Burke's snark on this show

There is always room for Billy Burke snark 😊, and it would greatly improve this shit show 

[possibilities]

The shot of Owen carrying what's her name out of the burning building, all silhouette and hero framing, was practically a parody. The show is really going too far with the Lowe worship. 

I wonder if the fires are more expensive to shoot than the Owen running around solving mysteries and punching people footage.

Paul was back to fighting fires. I guess after he collapsed during his test, he had a miraculous recovery and will never collapse again unless they write him off the show.

[Bruinsfan]

At this point I'm wondering how Owen didn't see the second plane approaching the South Tower on 9/11 and jump out a window to punch the hijackers and land it safely.

Edited March 31, 2022 by Bruinsfan

[tennisgurl]

Oh no, TK's in danger! I haven't been this shocked since someone told me that trees have leaves sometimes! Seriously, what is with this show and its never ending ridiculous drama, especially surrounding Owen? If they wanted Owen to run around stopping bad guys, investigating arson, and going on stakeouts, why didn't they just make him a cop? Why does this show need so much extra drama, with super villains, near death experiences for every main character, everyone getting life threatening illnesses every week, so much that they hardly even seem to fight fires anymore. The mothership is guilty of this too, especially the personal soap opera drama, but they at least usually remember to throw in some actual rescues most weeks!

I am glad that they at least seem to be calling out Owen's violent tendencies as a bad thing, even if I cant imagine they will go all the way considering the amount of Owen worship that goes on. I suspected that something was up with Julie Benz's character, especially bringing her back now that Owen already has a new love interest, so I guessed it was her pretty quickly. I did enjoy her really channeling that old Darla energy, she's really at her best playing creepy. Of course Owen randomly meets and bonds with a psychopathic stalker while he's off in the woods, as well as stopping an unrelated human trafficking ring! In a blizzard! Of course he does.

Nancy's story was pretty good, but it was convenient that the woman died before she could get fired. Nancy really better take this as a lesson, she cant put her own personal history over the wishes of a patient, and the next time this happens they might not conveniently drop dead.

[CB-LXX]

On 3/29/2022 at 4:56 PM, DearEvette said:

An once again we only get one real 911 rescue call and it is really a stealth Nancy story that does her no favors. i love Tommy and all, but Nancy needed a come to Jesus talk about ignoring that DNR.  I am glad the woman stuck to her guns initially and refused to drop the lawsuit.  Of course the show had to undo all of that and have her drop it anyway and die.  Very convenient and neat resolution.

20+ years ago, my MIL's mother, suffering from heart disease, had a heart attack (or something of that nature). She had a DNR. MIL, who had POA (both medical and financial), overruled the DNR and insisted medical staff do everything they could to save her, so they did. And the poor woman spent another month, suffering, barely awake for most of it, and in pain when she was, before MIL finally relented. I get that it was hard for her, and I try to be sympathetic, but she put her own personal happiness over her mother's comfort and I don't agree with that. I feel like the hospital should have said from the start "These were your mother's wishes, we can't disregard that," but I don't know if her having POA negated all of that. I don't think it should have, but what do I know? In both that and this particular situation, I think the relatives (my MIL, and the sister in this episode) hold a major responsibility of knowing exactly what the patient wanted, and going against it. However, after all that (and I do absolutely think that Nancy should have been punished for it, like suspension and/or a permanent reprimand on her record) I don't think permanently ending her career was the right answer either, and I don't blame Tommy for fighting for Nancy in this case.  I hope that it was a major teaching moment for her, not to let her own feelings interfere with a patient's wishes.

Perhaps watching Metallica's "One" video should be a requirement for all going into the profession. 

[CB-LXX]

On 3/30/2022 at 9:33 AM, Bruinsfan said:

I do remember initially thinking Julie Benz's character was in cahoots with Murder Deputy because she's great at playing villains and I didn't think Tim Minear would bring her on just to play Owen's potential love interest and then drop her. But this episode had me fooled until Carlos' reaction to the footage.

I thought Nancy's storyline was well done, and they made Carlos surprisingly quick on his feet and good at insincerely drawing the real story out of Sadie. I also really liked that they aren't playing Owen's belligerence up as a good character trait.

Oh, I thought exactly the same thing. I thought she was part of the whole trafficking thing and she was going to end up being the one to attack Owen. I was still suspicious of her when she showed up in this, but I still thought she was still in cahoots with the deputy, until Carlos' reveal.

[auntiemel]

6 hours ago, Kenadi O said:

20+ years ago, my MIL's mother, suffering from heart disease, had a heart attack (or something of that nature). She had a DNR. MIL, who had POA (both medical and financial), overruled the DNR and insisted medical staff do everything they could to save her, so they did. And the poor woman spent another month, suffering, barely awake for most of it, and in pain when she was, before MIL finally relented. I get that it was hard for her, and I try to be sympathetic, but she put her own personal happiness over her mother's comfort and I don't agree with that. I feel like the hospital should have said from the start "These were your mother's wishes, we can't disregard that," but I don't know if her having POA negated all of that. I don't think it should have, but what do I know? In both that and this particular situation, I think the relatives (my MIL, and the sister in this episode) hold a major responsibility of knowing exactly what the patient wanted, and going against it. However, after all that (and I do absolutely think that Nancy should have been punished for it, like suspension and/or a permanent reprimand on her record) I don't think permanently ending her career was the right answer either, and I don't blame Tommy for fighting for Nancy in this case.  I hope that it was a major teaching moment for her, not to let her own feelings interfere with a patient's wishes.

Perhaps watching Metallica's "One" video should be a requirement for all going into the profession. 

Unless she had a medical power of attorney - which is separate from the more common financial POA - she shouldn't have been able to override her mother's stated wishes. Of course, it might have been different in the time when the situation happened.

I agree with you that, unless someone is demonstrably not of sound mind, they should maintain control over their own healthcare decisions. Even if those decisions are difficult to understand for the people who love them or the medical staff taking care of them. It's not a popularity vote, it's not being decided by committee. It's their life, their health. Their choice, if they are cognitively able to make it.

And, yes, also, I don't think Nancy's career should have been ended over the situation. But there should have been consequences. I think it would have been fitting if the dying woman had made the condition that, instead of getting fired, Nancy had a strike on her record, and had to do a certain amount of volunteer hours in hospice, with people who were in immense pain and who were never getting better. Maybe that would give her a fuller realization of exactly the kind of harm she had done in disregarding that woman's wishes.

[possibilities]

The sister who called them to the scene and was begging them to save her probably also influenced Nancy's decision to ignore the bracelet-- and also the problem that no one else checked for one. I'm sure they all assumed the sister knew and cared about the wishes of her loved one. I know Nancy and the team are still responsible professionally, but it's easier to understand their not checking when there's a relative making a scene like that and begging them to "save her". I think it would be harder to forgive if the same thing happened in a slower moving situation where all the staff knows the score, and isn't making a split second decision. Again, not excusing anyone, but for me that makes it easier to say: consequences but not a total end of her career.

[Bruinsfan]

I can't be too critical of the relatives in those sorts of DNR situations, Kenadi O. Holding on isn't just about selfishly wanting to keep the loved one with you, deciding to let them go means you have to be brutally honest with yourself that there's no more hope of recovery, or at least not enough to justify their suffering. Telling the crash team to stop their rescue attempt on my father the night he died (a decision made jointly with my mom, who had the actual say) was the hardest thing I've ever had to do in my life by a WIDE margin.

[shapeshifter]

9 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

I can't be too critical of the relatives in those sorts of DNR situations, Kenadi O. Holding on isn't just about selfishly wanting to keep the loved one with you, deciding to let them go means you have to be brutally honest with yourself that there's no more hope of recovery, or at least not enough to justify their suffering. Telling the crash team to stop their rescue attempt on my father the night he died (a decision made jointly with my mom, who had the actual say) was the hardest thing I've ever had to do in my life by a WIDE margin.

There are also the factors of guilt and responsibility that you aren't doing enough for your loved one, which, when they are dying, are pretty much unavoidable feelings, regardless of DNRs.
The suffering of the terminally ill tends to exacerbate those feelings.
The sister would have probably not gone against the DNR if she'd been Zooming a competent therapist/grief counselor, but the sister was probably overwhelmed with caring for her sister while no doubt also having a job or other responsibilities. There was no mention of her having such counseling, which would have been a nice PSA to throw into the episode.

[ninjakid]

Having the support of the medical professionals is really key though. I was at my mom's side when she made the decision to move my dad to palliative care. Dad was in the ICU and the nurses were trying to do some sort of procedure and Dad was clearly uncomfortable but not able to express much. One of the nurses looked at my mom and told her that if she said the word they would stop. So she did. And it was the right choice. 

[shapeshifter]

48 minutes ago, ninjakid said:

Having the support of the medical professionals is really key though. I was at my mom's side when she made the decision to move my dad to palliative care. Dad was in the ICU and the nurses were trying to do some sort of procedure and Dad was clearly uncomfortable but not able to express much. One of the nurses looked at my mom and told her that if she said the word they would stop. So she did. And it was the right choice. 

Yes. Similar with my father. 
Basically, the healthcare workers will go with what is wanted over what is on a piece of paper–—or, apparently, on a bracelet?
In part the healthcare workers want to do what the patient and loved ones want; but I am sure they also don't want a law suit. Mom was not ready to give up on Dad, but my sister made it clear she was the one in charge.

[Jillybean]

On 3/27/2022 at 1:09 PM, jewel21 said:

 

Quote

Owen fears the past is back to haunt him when a stalker targets him and Catherine. Meanwhile, Tommy and Gillian face consequences when Gillian saves the life of a woman wearing a "Do Not Resuscitate" bracelet.

 Airdate: 03/28/2022

Who the heck is Gillian?  Nancy should have been disciplined and Tommy went too easy on her.

On 3/31/2022 at 1:44 AM, possibilities said:

The shot of Owen carrying what's her name out of the burning building, all silhouette and hero framing, was practically a parody. The show is really going too far with the Lowe worship. 

I immediately thought of Ryan carrying Marissa away from the car crash, which actually was an iconic scene from The OC.

Edited April 2, 2022 by Jillybean

[EllaWycliffe]

On 3/30/2022 at 8:04 AM, iMonrey said:

That's not unique to this show, they pretty much do the same thing with 911 and Chicago Fire. They just can't seem to get enough mileage out of fire and rescue stories, for some reason.

I mean, honestly, not to disrespect the fire and rescue crowd, but how many fascinating stories are there? A house is on fire, we put it out. Maybe someone has to carry a crying child out. Someone accidently runs their car off a cliff and needs to be rescued.... the average rescue or fire doesn't really have a dramatic mystery. 

2 hours ago, Jillybean said:

Nancy should have been disciplined and Tommy went too easy on her.

Agreed. I waffle a little on this in that I was struck by the petty bitterness on the part of the cancer victim - Yes, she had a DNR, I know Nancy was wrong but "I'm dying and I am suing you deliberately to ruin your life to teach EVERYONE a lesson" just seemed unpleasantly over the top. I also kind of question the point if the woman's death so rapidly after initiating the lawsuit means the lawsuit is dropped. Doesn't anyone oversee Tommy and her crew?

[shapeshifter]

4 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

I waffle a little on this in that I was struck by the petty bitterness on the part of the cancer victim - Yes, she had a DNR, I know Nancy was wrong but "I'm dying and I am suing you deliberately to ruin your life to teach EVERYONE a lesson" just seemed unpleasantly over the top.

If the script, acting, and directing had more accurately portrayed someone really suffering, I think the DNR person's point would have been made to the viewers. 

[EllaWycliffe]

1 minute ago, shapeshifter said:

If the script, acting, and directing had more accurately portrayed someone really suffering, I think the DNR person's point would have been made to the viewers. 

I agree to where I was actually surprised the resolution was that the relatively healthy reasonably active cancer victim who had the energy to sue dropped dead a day or two later. I honestly don't remember the actual scene - did Tommy even try to override Nancy? If not then thats part of the problem as well and again, someone should be monitoring the paramedics.

 

[izabella]

8 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

I honestly don't remember the actual scene - did Tommy even try to override Nancy?

Tommy didn't see the bracelet, so she didn't know anything was amiss.  Nancy was about to shock her, saw the bracelet and hesitated (though the audience did not see the bracelet and did not know why she paused for a moment).  She looked at the crying sister, and then she went ahead and used the paddles to get the cancer patient's heart going again.  When the woman was conscious, she got mad that they had revived her and showed them the bracelet.

Nancy was at fault 100%, no way around it.  Tommy said she should have checked for a bracelet but didn't think to do it.  That was probably because of the sister who hid the fact that her sister had a DNR and wanted them to save her.

25 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

I also kind of question the point if the woman's death so rapidly after initiating the lawsuit means the lawsuit is dropped.

The sister said the woman dropped the lawsuit before she died.

[CB-LXX]

On 3/31/2022 at 8:35 PM, auntiemel said:

Unless she had a medical power of attorney - which is separate from the more common financial POA - she shouldn't have been able to override her mother's stated wishes. Of course, it might have been different in the time when the situation happened.

I agree with you that, unless someone is demonstrably not of sound mind, they should maintain control over their own healthcare decisions. Even if those decisions are difficult to understand for the people who love them or the medical staff taking care of them. It's not a popularity vote, it's not being decided by committee. It's their life, their health. Their choice, if they are cognitively able to make it.

And, yes, also, I don't think Nancy's career should have been ended over the situation. But there should have been consequences. I think it would have been fitting if the dying woman had made the condition that, instead of getting fired, Nancy had a strike on her record, and had to do a certain amount of volunteer hours in hospice, with people who were in immense pain and who were never getting better. Maybe that would give her a fuller realization of exactly the kind of harm she had done in disregarding that woman's wishes.

She had both types of POA, because she was helping her mom through her illness, as well as helping her keep her financial affairs in order, but I think she shared them with her oldest brother, but he lives in another state, she handled most of it. 

Absolutely agree on Nancy. I thought it was so odd that the dying woman wanted her to be fired (or to resign) from the job, never to work in the field again. How would that have been a teaching moment for her? It would have made me bitter if I couldn't work in my chosen profession and it wouldn't make me sympathetic to those in that situation, because I'd be so bitter. 

Edited April 2, 2022 by Kenadi O
typo

[izabella]

I think the intent of the lawsuit was as a teaching moment for the entire EMS force, top to bottom, from the highest exec to the newest recruit.  Knowing that someone was 100% fired because they ignored a DNR would teach the department that DNR's are very serious and its illegal to ignore them.  I actually agree with that.  Obviously, just having the law in place doesn't mean EMT's will follow it, since we saw Nancy choose to go against the patient's clear, legal directions. There have to be consequences for violating the law, and the training they receive needs to reflect the significance of a DNR, no matter what the EMT thinks or feels in that moment.

So, I'm miffed that Nancy is getting zero consequences.  At the very least, Tommy needs to suspend her without pay for a while as a reminder to everyone in the department - especially Nancy - not to ignore DNRs.  It would also give Nancy time to think about what kind of EMT she wants to be.  Maybe that's not the right job for her if she can't follow the rules and the law. 

Edited April 2, 2022 by izabella

[WinJet0819]

8 hours ago, Jillybean said:

Who the heck is Gillian?  Nancy should have been disciplined and Tommy went too easy on her.

That's Nancy's last name. Nancy Gillian.

[WinJet0819]

On 3/31/2022 at 11:52 AM, tennisgurl said:

Oh no, TK's in danger! I haven't been this shocked since someone told me that trees have leaves sometimes! Seriously, what is with this show and its never ending ridiculous drama, especially surrounding Owen? If they wanted Owen to run around stopping bad guys, investigating arson, and going on stakeouts, why didn't they just make him a cop? Why does this show need so much extra drama, with super villains, near death experiences for every main character, everyone getting life threatening illnesses every week, so much that they hardly even seem to fight fires anymore. The mothership is guilty of this too, especially the personal soap opera drama, but they at least usually remember to throw in some actual rescues most weeks!

I am glad that they at least seem to be calling out Owen's violent tendencies as a bad thing, even if I cant imagine they will go all the way considering the amount of Owen worship that goes on. I suspected that something was up with Julie Benz's character, especially bringing her back now that Owen already has a new love interest, so I guessed it was her pretty quickly. I did enjoy her really channeling that old Darla energy, she's really at her best playing creepy. Of course Owen randomly meets and bonds with a psychopathic stalker while he's off in the woods, as well as stopping an unrelated human trafficking ring! In a blizzard! Of course he does.

Nancy's story was pretty good, but it was convenient that the woman died before she could get fired. Nancy really better take this as a lesson, she cant put her own personal history over the wishes of a patient, and the next time this happens they might not conveniently drop dead.

This is the problem I pointed out a couple weeks ago. This continues to revolve around the Strands, as they are dominating most of the storylines. This show is giving off Chicago Fire vibes with all the incredulous stuff that Owen is able to do. Other characters are seemingly thrown into the background. And that includes the show's namesake, the 911 Center. Nancy finally got some focus, but her B-plot was dwarfed by Owen's story. Just like Carlos and Grace's storyline the week before.

One thing the mothership constantly does is give storylines to everyone. It's not just all about Bobby or Athena. Everyone, from Buck, to Eddie, to Hen to Chim to Maddie, and even the 911 Center get a focus. That's the power of an ensemble cast. And it seems Lone Star just wants Owen Strand and TK to get the bulk of the focus.

[possibilities]

It will never be an ensemble show as long as Lowe is on it. I was hoping they were going to kill him off with the cancer story, that he was there to help launch but would leave and then it could be a true ensemble show. He does usually get bored pretty quickly and want out, so it seemed plausible. But I guess they decided they wanted to keep him and so are catering to his ego. It's really bringing the show down. They created really interesting characters and are doing almost nothing with them. It's actually gotten worse over time, not better.