S08.E05: Armageddon, Part 5

[Trini]

The conclusion to Armageddon presents an opportunity for The Flash to end his lifelong battle with Reverse Flash for good, but the payoff could be too much for Barry and team to handle. Meanwhile, Mia Queen (guest star Katherine McNamara) drops in from the future looking to save a lost loved one, and she won't let anything stand in her way.

Menhaj Huda directed the episode written by Kristen Kim.

Airdate: 12/14/2021

[Trini]

 

[scarynikki12]

Joe! Hugs! Joe being confused!

Damian! Is alive? 

MIA! Hi baby girl! 

Is Thawne involved with William's kidnapping? GET HIS ASS MIA!

Thawne needs Barry to save him? Well that's an easy answer so say no, help Mia find William, and then everyone go to trivia night.

Of course they want to have a discussion rather than exchanging high fives over Thawne's end.

Mia agrees with me and thinks they're all nuts. Wait, William's been missing FOR TWO YEARS?? Team Flash, this needs to be Priority 1. Tell Thawne you'll save him so he doesn't try anything and then go find William.

Awww, Mia said Iris West-FRACKING-Allen. The two of them are going to be besties when this is over.

Way too many characters in the Arrowverse do the whisper talking. Thawne isn't as quiet as Oliver and Diggle but it still grates.

I know Caitlin's having her big Fuck You speech to Thawne (and she's not remotely required to save you, pal) but it's time that could be spent on helping Mia find William and becoming besties with Iris.

Seriously, Barry, just let the man die and go help Mia. Letting Thawne monologue just runs out the episode clock.

Yes, Barry, Thawne is a petty sociopath so LET HIM DIE! Thawne isn't even pretending to become a better person if you let him live.

I can't wait for whatever bullshit reason they come up with to let him live. 

Ok, Team Thawne Must Live, they aren't shooting him they're simply not putting forth the effort to save him. Again, this is time that could be spent on helping Mia find William who has been MISSING FOR TWO YEARS. William isn't a villain who has already promised to try and kill you when he gets out so focus on him. 

Markus HOW DARE YOU possess my baby girl. You're really underlining your villainy and I hope I'm there when you realize it.

Hey, Barry, your speed was almost removed by Jefferson but YOU GOT IT BACK and you know Thawne will too so just let him die already.

Mia has a Canary Cry arrow? Speaking of, I wonder if Dinah ever found out who sent her to the future and why.

I wish they'd just made Markus look as ridiculous as possible rather than the serious attempt at CGI.

Ok, Iris, time to use your years of experience and break through the mind control with a top quality speech.

Cecile, I said Iris. Iris is going to be Mia's new bestie, not you. Ok, a mind whammy weapon works too.

Barry went shoe shopping.

Yes, from Thawne's perspective Barry taking his speed is a fate worse than death but we all know he'll get it back eventually so it was the bad play.

Yeah these guys don't hold a grudge even when they should so you're good Mia.

Ok, Mia never knew Laurel so she shouldn't be threatening Damian for killing her...unless...don't tell me Black Siren stole that part of Laurel's life as well? 

I KNEW Mia and Iris would be besties by the end! I really hope she makes her way over to LOT for their help for the last bit of help finding William.

Still don't care about Allegra and Chester.

Damian, you got to stick around a bit longer because you're played by Neal McDonough who is A DELIGHT. Sweet goodbye with Nora who has seen him die a few too many times now. Honey, go get some cuddles from Ray and then find your next fairy godmother client. They'll make you feel better. 

[bettername2come]

I do like how Barry just can't wrap his head around the petty evil of Eobard Thawne. I am chanting "Let him die! Let him die!" I did like Joe calling Barry and Iris so angry and disappointed with his "I raised you better than this!" tone. I don't think de-powering Thawne is the worst idea, although seriously not helping him continue trying to kill you is self-defense. There's nothing wrong with it. 

I liked Thawne's scene with Caitlin. I thought Danielle Panabaker played it well (a sentence I've not said in years) and the betrayal of Caitlin and Ronnie has been overshadowed by his relationships with Cisco and Barry. 

The team did look gorgeous walking into their celebration. 

Damien Darhk and Joe West having a dad chat was not something I knew I needed. I did love that he didn't disappear himself on purpose. I didn't really expect to see Courtney Ford tonight. And I really like how Joe can just walk away with his arm around her to tell her things cause his dad energy is that strong. I do wish we'd had Ray/Brandon with his wife. They're better together. 

Was Mia called Mia Queen in those last few Arrow eps after the multiverse erasure or was she still Smoak? 

[Jediknight]

Mia sticking around in this timeline, Iris telling her that she'd like Nora and Bart, and Nora and Bart showing up.  Are they setting up a Justice League of the future spinoff with Mia, Nora, and Bart?  They're gonna have all 3 in this timeline, Supergirl and Black Lightning are finished, and the current Beeboverse shows could be wrapping up, in particular The Flash.

[scarynikki12]

5 minutes ago, bettername2come said:

Was Mia called Mia Queen in those last few Arrow eps after the multiverse erasure or was she still Smoak?

Post-Crisis she's been Mia Queen. I wanted Smoak-Queen but they didn't listen to me.

[bettername2come]

3 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

Post-Crisis she's been Mia Queen. I wanted Smoak-Queen but they didn't listen to me.

In fairness Smoak-Queen sounds like a Disney villain. 

[scarynikki12]

1 minute ago, bettername2come said:

In fairness Smoak-Queen sounds like a Disney villain. 

That's why it's fun!

7 minutes ago, Jediknight said:

Are they setting up a Justice League of the future spinoff with Mia, Nora, and Bart?

That'd be cool.

[Primal Slayer]

Overall I think this was probably the best episode of the event so there's that. It felt more event-ish compared to the other episodes imo, at least a coherent one.

Thawne coming out with the "save me" plotline did make me roll my eyes. This guy technically shouldn't even exist since his ancestor that helped birth his family lineage is long dead. Let him fade away! It's meant to be. 

It was nice that the writers probably have given Caitlin the most honest scene the character has gotten in ages with Thawne. It felt like their knock off version of Black Widow/Loki in Avengers. 

Seeing Mia again was fun but I was like....did we really wait like 2 years for a wrap up to Green Arrow and the Canaries and still NOTHING is resolved? Huh? We just gonna keep drawing that out? Still makes me mad that TheCW tried to be cheap and thus didnt give us the one show we deserved. Though I am partially sad that Post-COIE Mia was basically wiped out to make way for Pre-COIE Mia since she got her Pre-COIE memories back and everything else seemingly is treated as "its fake". How did she even time travel anyway? Did I miss that explanation?

Darhk definitely gets the best storyline for a villain doesnt he? I wonder if this will truly be the last time we see him. And how did Nora get transported to his...whatever dimension he was in? Did I miss that as well?

I seriously can not believe that they teased us with Bart/Nora messing up the timeline after...we just had AN ENTIRE EVENT THAT CENTERED around MESSING UP THE TIMELINE! And even this should've resulted in some small cracks. You cant be changing things this much and have everything just return to normal as if nothing happened. 

That fight with Despero...lol...THAT FIGHT lol..

I guess I have to give the writers props for trying to give us something great but it was like watching a PS3 cut scene. But compared to other CGI scenes this show has given us, it probably was one of the better ones. 

I honestly dont know how i feel about Flash just throwing lightning around like its his main power now. I'm cool with him running super fast and charging up and being able to throw a blast but not all this Lightning out of anywhere like he is Black Lightning Jr. Same with RF.

[insomniadreams88]

This is the first Flash episode I’ve given my attention to in years. And yes, that was because of Mia (Smoak) Queen. 

Poor William remains kidnapped (though he’ll probably be kidnapped again about a week after Mia finds him). I’m glad Mia’s going to talk to Felicity, but please give us some resolution on-screen. Then give me my future team arrow spin-off. 

I don’t quite get why Mia cares about Earth-1 Laurel (whom she never met) so much she threatened Darhk? (Wish she’d at least also mentioned the fact he paralyzed her mom. And kidnapped her brother when he was a kid. Would’ve made more sense to include a Laurel she never met if she’d started listing things.)

That being said, I enjoyed Joe and Darhk’s talk. Really, everything Joe. Jesse L. Martin is the best part of this show. 

I love Tom Cavanagh but dear god, enough with Thawne. Leave Cavanagh to just appear as Harrison Wells and lock Thawne up and throw away the key. Is the prison still in somewhat working order on the island? Leave him there. 

Sorry, show, but nothing you do will make me care about Allegra/Chester. Why does it seem like they’re treating them like this possibly big romance? 

[cambridgeguy]

I guess Joe isn't a fan of the whole "I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you" attitude Bale Batman had. 

And good lord, it's not enough for William to be kidnapped by normal baddies, he has to be the target of a time traveler? 

All of this was just to give Barry the gold boots, wasn't it?

[Lantern7]

Okay, so Despero is gone, Eobard is in ARGUS prison without speed (and really upset about it), and Damien fades out of existence . . . and Nora is pulled to Central City. I think. Ray Palmer's Nora, not Barry's dead mother Nora. Oh, and something about a picture which I missed.

We're never going to be rid of Reverse Flash, are we? And his grudge towards Barry stems from . . . . Barry showing him up in his native timeline? I think. You remember Ray's final episode in Legends of Tomorrow, where the guys get drunk and unconventionally alter Romeo & Juliet? I don't think they could have made things as cluttered as the current Flash timeline. Next month? Even more havoc. Hey why not?

Mia is staying in the 2020's? Okay, then. And William is still kidnapped? Okay, then. I'm thinking a lot of the remainder of the season is going to involve me shrugging my shoulders.

[Trini]

So we're just cool with anybody just time-traveling to the past to do whatever? Cool. cool cool cool.

5 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

How did she even time travel anyway? Did I miss that explanation?

You definitely didn't miss an explanation that wasn't given!

I knew TPTB would never let Barry even indirectly kill Thawne; but he can't even let his worst enemy die because of the consequences of his messing with timelines? Come on. And it's going to be extra dumb later when Reverse Flash returns, because of course he will.

It was so good to see Joe again!

6 hours ago, bettername2come said:

Damien Darhk and Joe West having a dad chat was not something I knew I needed. ...

They should just let Joe/Jesse interact with the other 'veterans' of the Arrow-verse more often. However, I thought it was out of character for him to be casually chummy with a supervillian; then again, apparently it's the cool thing to do these days. Well, f you can get Neal McDonough, you use him, I guess.

So if Despero was really a 'bad guy' all along, now I'm unsure about why he was so set on 'protecting' Earth?

I guess the show is foreshadowing getting Caitlin out of the lab? About time!

I just didn't care about Mia and whatever leftover Arrow plots. ... Which they didn't resolve anyway??

I've never needed the gold boots, but I thought the reveal was really good.

So again, if this is the proper timeline now, then all of what we saw since the start of this event was the Reverse-Flashpoint; so how much of that will end up being real?

More thoughts later...

[Cthulhudrew]

They really need to let Thawne go at this point. The writers have let him become such a one-dimensional, scene-chewing meh. After all this time, they can't give him a better reason for hating Barry beyond "you stole my thunder!" And then, when he is desperately pleading for his life, he throws shade at one of the people whose help he needs because that seems like a good plan? Season 1 Thawne was so much more nuanced and TC played him much better. I think Matt Letscher's Thawne was better than TC has developed the character post-S1, and hope they bring him back for the next (inevitable?) Thawne outing rather than TC. Or maybe they can do Thawne vs. Thawne the ultimate throwdown.

Edited December 15, 2021 by Cthulhudrew

[Quark]

I can't believe Thawne is still alive. This crossover would have been a great opportunity to get rid of him permanently, but no.

Waste of a crossover really.

[cdnalor]

If they keep Flash's gold boots, I hope they make then more stream-lined because those clunky things look like something KISS would wear.

I really don't see how removing Thawne's speed protects him from timeline correction, but whatever... Pretty sure Thawne left himself an escape route when he consulted Gideon in the last episode.

I'm always surprised at how short Cecile is next to the others, and she was wearing heels!  She sure filled out that dress in the right places, though.

A softer, gentler Damian Darhk is hard for me to take seriously considering his past actions.  He can care for his daughter while still retaining his evil edge.  Maybe next time.  Nora kind of looked to me like Sue Dibney for a moment.

 

[tennisgurl]

Sorry, totally on team "eat popcorn while the bastard winks out of existence" when it comes to Thawne. When Allegra/Cecile/Chester/Joe were giving their dumb "stilling is supes bad you guys" speeches I was just like "kill him, kill him, you can do it, your on the right path!" but of course Barry/Iris/Caitlyn get guilted into letting the shithead live, although at least they took his speed this time instead of just letting him go on his merry way to wreck more havoc. Yeah yeah letting people die, even horrible monsters, is bad, but like Iris said, Allegra and Chester have no idea who Thawne is and don't understand what he's done, they have no real place to give lectures about what to do about him. I guess it is the more heroic thing to help him, even as he cackles about how he is going to go right back to trying to kill Barry as soon as he's better, but I wish the show could give a better explanation as to why to help him besides "that's what heroes do".  Even worse, this means he will inevitably show up again, probably having gotten his speed back, to annoy us further. 

All that being said, I thought this episode was one of the better ones as far as this crossover goes. It did actually manage to feel a bit more epic, even more then last week when time was re-written about a dozen times, probably because I was thrilled to see Mia again. This crossover has felt like a bit of an Arrowverse apology tour at times, trying to throw some bones to its actors and characters who have been kind of screwed over. Brandon and Courtney got to have a bit more screen time after being fired, Katherine gets to hang around as Mia and hopefully close up her search for William after her pilot fell through, Ryan Choi got to come back (albeit in a really weird way), its not a bad way to use a crossover. Poor William, kidnapped for two freaking years, and poor Mia, searching for him for that long, to the point of time traveling out of desperation, the Queens can never catch a break, no matter the generation. When Mia was all "lets just kill him already" I was like "look at that, she is really her fathers daughter." I feel like Iris was really simplifying Oliver's complicated journey when it came to killing, its not like he just realized that killing was always bad no matter what because it made him a monster, there was a lot more to it, and even when he vowed to find nonlethal ways to take out enemies, he would still kill if he felt like he had no choice. I really did like the Iris and Mia conversations, Iris clearly needs some new besties. 

I also laughed at Joe's "BARRY! IRIS!" Angry Dad voice followed by Barry and Iris looking at each other like "we're in so much trouble" even if the hysterics over leaving Thawne to reap what he sows to be ridiculously overblown. 

I just do not care about Allegra and Chester's "romance", and not just because I'm annoyed that their lectures kept us from getting rid of Thawne permanently. They have zero chemistry and certainly not any kind of epic love story. Its boring and sucks up screen time that could be better used elsewhere. 

I didn't expect to see Damien again, and I had no idea I needed to see him and Joe having a dad chat, but it turns out I totally did. Also didn't expect to see Nora, so that was a nice surprise, even if it means she has to watch her dad die yet again. Better go home to Ray for some hugs stat. I have no idea why Mia cares so much about Laurel, a person she doesn't even know, although I guess its because she's connected with the Black Canaries as a part of the spin-off that never happened. It just reminded me that I would loved a Team Arrow TNG show, but the one they pitched instead was some lame Canary show with the insufferable Black Siren, which is probably why we don't have a show now.

As sick of Thawne as I am, I did find his scenes with Barry to be interesting, Barry is just so frustrated that his life has been dicked with since he was a kid for the most petty reasons imaginable. He just cant comprehend hating a person that much, let alone for something so random, its like he's desperate to make some sense out of why these horrible things have happened to him, but Thawne really has no reason to hate Barry, he's just a terrible petty psychopath who can never give Barry answers that will make sense to him. 

[scarynikki12]

10 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I have no idea why Mia cares so much about Laurel, a person she doesn't even know

I’m telling you Siren somehow managed to steal Laurel’s entire backstory as well as her identity. Mia probably thinks Damian killed Siren who was then resurrected in a Lazarus Pit (cause she’d also steal Sara’s backstory in a heartbeat as well if it benefits her) which is why she was outraged by his presence. Otherwise the outrage makes no sense since Laurel died years before she was born.

50 minutes ago, cdnalor said:

If they keep Flash's gold boots, I hope they make then more stream-lined because those clunky things look like something KISS would wear.

Now I want a KISS inspired Flash suit.

[Primal Slayer]

Mia probably caught up on the history books. Knows Laurel was Felicitys TOTAL BFF, was on Team Arrow,  Black Canary and wasn't a fan of Darhk offing someone in the Star City fam. 

[tennisgurl]

Do you remember when time travel was actually a pretty big deal? Now its the equivalent of coming home to visit your parents over the holidays, just with less stops at gas stations. 

[Primal Slayer]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

Do you remember when time travel was actually a pretty big deal? Now its the equivalent of coming home to visit your parents over the holidays, just with less stops at gas stations. 

They really need to tighten that back up. Between Flash and Legends, it's such a joke.

[Cthulhudrew]

5 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

I’m telling you Siren somehow managed to steal Laurel’s entire backstory as well as her identity.

Maybe she pulled a Flashpoint of her own.

[rmontro]

I liked this five episode run.  It had better pacing than the normal sized full seasons, or half seasons, where things tend to drag out.  Maybe all television shows should go to five episodes mini seasons.

Thawne's back to whispering his lines again, I see.  He's the Reverse-Barry Goldberg.

 Wow, Joe was MAD that Barry and Iris were thinking about letting Thawne die.  

Heartwarming stuff from Damien Darhk, and his talk with Joe.  Darhk makes a good example of why Barry treats his enemies so well.

[CabotCove]

This baiting got to stop, once again they did nothing with Ryan Choi and moving him closer to be Atom. Yes he was Atom in the future but they should have set the groundwork in the present. William is not found, despite Mia appearance. No point in watching crossovers if you wont do anything interesting in them.

 

 

Edited December 18, 2021 by CabotCove

[cambridgeguy]

On 12/15/2021 at 3:23 AM, Trini said:

So again, if this is the proper timeline now, then all of what we saw since the start of this event was the Reverse-Flashpoint; so how much of that will end up being real?

It seems like that most of episode 1 (the CC Citizen stuff with Iris, Caitlyn dating again) will probably stick.  There was no reason to introduce either of those threads if they end up getting dropped and they weren't really related to Armageddon itself.

[thuganomics85]

And so the Armageddon arc ends.  Not a rousing success, but not a flat-out whimper either, so I guess that can be considered a win considering how most of last season turned out.

I have accepted a long time ago that I would not be cut out with the whole hero thing, because I was so pulling for Team Flash to just let Eobard die.  First, I would honestly argue that they weren't "killing" him but letting die in a way that was natural for this timeline/situation, because he really should have already been gone for ten times over.  Second is, again: I get the power of redemption and doing the right thing, but how many chances have they given him?  And how many issues, destruction, and flat-out lives have been cost due to him running around and fucking things over due to his quest to ruin Barry's life?  If anything, it almost makes them come off selfish by not ending this, because who knows what damage will come out of him sticking around just for their peace of mind.  Because, yes, they may have de-powered him at least, but come on.  You just know Eobard has some kind of backup plan.

I thought nothing was going to make me roll my eyes more at Allegra and Chester pushing back against Barry and Iris' initial decision, but then came good old Joe practically losing his mind over the possibility of ridding themselves of this monster for good.  You'd have think they were planning on sacrificing Wally with the way he tore into them.  Honestly, Jesse L. Martin's performance was extremely good that I'm almost choosing to believe that the anger was actually coming from him knowing how ridiculous Joe was coming off and how silly they were making his character.  Still, credit to him always giving it 100%!

All that said, I did love Barry being all "Will you just please tell me why we are mortal enemies, finally?" to Eobard and Eobard giving him the most petty reason possible.  Barry's "Oh, for fuck sakes, this is why you've made my life a living hell?!" reaction to that was the best.

Cool seeing Mia again and even if the spinoff never happened, it sounds like they might be setting her up to be a bigger factor in the Arrowverse again.

In the end, Despero was a disappointment and a waste of Tony Curran's talents.  Granted, that's been an issue with a lot of Arrowverse shows: they get great actors for a good portion of their villains and squander them.  While the less than stellar ones manage to stick around way too long (glances at Chris Klein's direction.)

Allegra and Chester's romance is so going to be a scene stopper going forward and not in a good way...

Crazy that freaking Damien Darhk managed to have the best and most emotional scenes here.  His scene with Joe was excellent and it was great seeing Norah Darhk again and them getting a final (?) good-bye.

I guess the tease at the end is hinting at Nora and Bart Allen coming back into play.  Actually cool with that: the Kid Flashes have been my favorite parts recently.

Despite its missteps, I do think having these five episode or so type arcs might help the show in the long run.

[adora721]

On 12/14/2021 at 6:15 PM, Primal Slayer said:

It was nice that the writers probably have given Caitlin the most honest scene the character has gotten in ages with Thawne. It felt like their knock off version of Black Widow/Loki in Avengers. 

Who was Loki, cause Cait's got blood on her ledger and has been Loki in her own sociopathic way. That Cait would tell Thawne she's wasted 8 years hating him is such a self own. Like, Thwane is a narcissist, and a sociopath; he's glad to be a source of pain for Cait. Why didn't Cait brag about her accomplishments as part of team Flash. Oh right! There are no accomplishments; even the meta cure was Cisco's idea. 

Joe West has lost all credibility as an officer of the law, a father, and a human being. He knows that police have to use deadly force when justified and are still considered heroes when they do. Again, emphasis on it's justified deadly force. I didn't hear Joe protesting when Iris shot Savitar to save Barry. I didn't hear him protest when Nora 2.0 allowed herself to fade out of existence in season 5. In season 2, Joe gave Iris a gun to protect herself when he found out Harrison Wells existed from Earth 2. When you give someone a gun, you expect they might use it to seriously injure or even kill someone. Joe also shot Harrison Well in season 2.

 Once Joe started supporting jailing evil metas in the pipeline and then harbored Cait and Killer Frost from justice, he became morally murky and is now fully morally bankrupt. When Thawne returns to murder and destroy again, it'll be on Joe's head.

ETA: Wasn't season 5 about not forcing Cicada to lose his powers by taking the meta cure without his consent?  How many innocent meta humans died while these so-called "heroes" tried to convince a serial killer to do the right thing? I guess it's OK to take Thawne's powers without his consent though to save Thawne's life. So the lives of those innocent meta humans didn't matter like Thawne's life. Makes no sense.

Edited December 17, 2021 by adora721

[Cthulhudrew]

2 hours ago, adora721 said:

Once Joe started supporting jailing evil metas in the pipeline and then harbored Cait and Killer Frost from justice, he became morally murky and is now fully morally bankrupt.

Speaking of the pipeline- and I know this goes back a couple episodes now- but am I the only one wondering what Team Flash did with all those metas they had locked up when that (federal?) agency came and put STAR Labs under lockdown after Thawne nearly caused a reactor leak there? 

(Probably moot now that it's all been Reverse-Reverse-Flash Pointed).

[adora721]

37 minutes ago, Cthulhudrew said:

Speaking of the pipeline- and I know this goes back a couple episodes now- but am I the only one wondering what Team Flash did with all those metas they had locked up when that (federal?) agency came and put STAR Labs under lockdown after Thawne nearly caused a reactor leak there? 

(Probably moot now that it's all been Reverse-Reverse-Flash Pointed).

They were transferred in season 1x22 because Thawne triggered the reactor to go off again, which endangered the metas. Barry got Snart's help to move them to safety, but Snart betrayed Barry, of course.

[Trini]

34 minutes ago, Cthulhudrew said:

Speaking of the pipeline- and I know this goes back a couple episodes now- but am I the only one wondering what Team Flash did with all those metas they had locked up when that (federal?) agency came and put STAR Labs under lockdown after Thawne nearly caused a reactor leak there? 

(Probably moot now that it's all been Reverse-Reverse-Flash Pointed).

They haven't had anyone locked up there (long-term) for seasons now. Iron Heights Prison has a section for metahumans.

 

3 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

I thought nothing was going to make me roll my eyes more at Allegra and Chester pushing back against Barry and Iris' initial decision, but then came good old Joe practically losing his mind over the possibility of ridding themselves of this monster for good.  You'd have think they were planning on sacrificing Wally with the way he tore into them.  Honestly, Jesse L. Martin's performance was extremely good that I'm almost choosing to believe that the anger was actually coming from him knowing how ridiculous Joe was coming off and how silly they were making his character.  Still, credit to him always giving it 100%!

One could argue that he's changed over the years, but I think this was mostly out of character for Joe, who knows firsthand how RF has already broken Barry's family. But they had to have someone advocate for RF for plot reasons. (Remember when Joe nearly shot Harry because he looked like Thawne/Wells? And that just one example.)
 

3 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

In the end, Despero was a disappointment and a waste of Tony Curran's talents.  Granted, that's been an issue with a lot of Arrowverse shows: they get great actors for a good portion of their villains and squander them.  ...

Yeah - casting department pulls through 90% of the time, then we get let down by writers.
 

3 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

I guess the tease at the end is hinting at Nora and Bart Allen coming back into play.  Actually cool with that: the Kid Flashes have been my favorite parts recently.

That and the promo have me excited for the next episode at least. Bart/Jordan F. brings a fresh energy to the show.

[Featherhat]

On 12/16/2021 at 4:40 AM, rmontro said:

 

Heartwarming stuff from Damien Darhk, and his talk with Joe.  Darhk makes a good example of why Barry treats his enemies so well.

It was right for Oliver to kill DD at the time. It took three further deaths and resurrections to get him to the place where he is now and that's basically just "not actively genocidal". And even then it was realising his daughter wasn't going to rule the universe but be consumed by a demon (after giving her to said death cult in the first place) that started him off. 

Ending Thawne is unquestionably the right thing to do, so naturally they'll not only never do it but give increasingly silly reasons why not. 

N McD is so, so good as DD, it's always such a delight to see him and he always looks like he's having a blast. And he always does even better when with Nora and Dad convo between him and NotDeadYet!Joe! Awesome. It was great to see CF again and let her have her swan song in the Arrowverse after abruptly being let go. 

The Flash writers always seem to default to season 1 Oliver when they write him and have a very black and white view. Killing didn't ruin his life per se, he was a pretty happy guy when allowed to be despite all the horror he witnessed, and he spent more time as the GA *not* killing than killing. And whilst he went back and forward on it, it is better than not letting nature take it's course and letting Thawne fade out (not even killing him). 

Poor William kidnapped for 2 years. I'd hoped they'd actually resolve that, unlike Diggle's guest spot but I guess they want Mia to hang around the present for a while to potentially guest star again? Or new attempt at a Legacies type spin off? Iris made sure to meantion meeting Bart and Nora. Not sure why she's so into killing DD for *Laurel* unless in this timeline she's doing it for Uncle Tommy. I mean I know she was a BC, her mother's friend etc but that was an instant recognition/reaction for someone who she never actually knew. 

[Trini]

30 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

Ending Thawne is unquestionably the right thing to do, so naturally they'll not only never do it but give increasingly silly reasons why not. 

Obviously too late for this, but they just need to stop bringing him back until they're ready to finally end him. "Reverse Flashpoint" could have been a cool closing arc instead of the one episode we got in this event.

 

34 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

Poor William kidnapped for 2 years. I'd hoped they'd actually resolve that, unlike Diggle's guest spot but I guess they want Mia to hang around the present for a while to potentially guest star again? Or new attempt at a Legacies type spin off? Iris made sure to meantion meeting Bart and Nora. ...

The showrunner really likes Arrow characters, so I assume he left the door open for more Mia appearances. Pretty sure Mia's not getting a second attempt at a spinoff, though.

I think the Bart and Nora mention was just to set up the next episode. And I'd say they could spin off Bart and Nora, however, a CW show might actually be a downgrade for Jordan Fisher.

[rmontro]

2 hours ago, Featherhat said:

Ending Thawne is unquestionably the right thing to do, so naturally they'll not only never do it but give increasingly silly reasons why not. 

I was rather disappointed by Joe's incredibly self righteous stance on this.  I would expect him to at least appreciate that there are some moral complications to this problem that makes it far from the clear black and white decision he made it out to be.

I've always felt that way about Batman never killing the Joker also.  How many innocent people are going to die horribly by letting him continue to live?

[Starry]

20 hours ago, adora721 said:

Joe West has lost all credibility as an officer of the law, a father, and a human being. He knows that police have to use deadly force when justified and are still considered heroes when they do. Again, emphasis on it's justified deadly force. I didn't hear Joe protesting when Iris shot Savitar to save Barry. I didn't hear him protest when Nora 2.0 allowed herself to fade out of existence in season 5. In season 2, Joe gave Iris a gun to protect herself when he found out Harrison Wells existed from Earth 2. When you give someone a gun, you expect they might use it to seriously injure or even kill someone. Joe also shot Harrison Well in season 2.

I think the point is that heroes can't carry out executions or just let someone die. Iris shooting Savitar in defense of a third party is acceptable because if she hadn't acted in that moment, Barry would be dead. And I find that season 2 scene with Joe and Harry extremely dumb.

My problem is that everything that happens on the show has to be the result of a moral debate between the team. You don't want to be done with Thawne? Come up with something else to make him escape. Enough with the preechy speeches! I liked it much better when these people were just forced to act on the spot (Iris shooting Savitar to protect Barry/Eddie killing himself to stop Thawne). Now every time Thawne manages to one-up the team it's because "Barry's not a killer". It got boring ages ago.

 

3 hours ago, Featherhat said:

The Flash writers always seem to default to season 1 Oliver when they write him and have a very black and white view. Killing didn't ruin his life per se, he was a pretty happy guy when allowed to be despite all the horror he witnessed, and he spent more time as the GA *not* killing than killing. And whilst he went back and forward on it, it is better than not letting nature take it's course and letting Thawne fade out (not even killing him).

The next time Mia pays them a visit, I would like the writers to have her interact with Iris with no mention of Oliver. Every time Iris says (or doesn't say) something about that man, that fandom comes down on her like a ton of bricks. Leave the Oliver mentions to Barry, Joe or even Caitlin who's someone who can say or do whatever and suffer no consequences with the writers and fans.

[CabotCove]

Quote

The showrunner really likes Arrow characters, so I assume he left the door open for more Mia appearances. Pretty sure Mia's not getting a second attempt at a spinoff, though. 

I doubt these are Eric Wallace's choices , remember he has a boss. I think this is a mandate from Greg Berlanti. Just like he mandated all the shows to have a Diggle appearance, in what turned out to be a pretty pointless arc and appearances. Berlanti thinks he can make up for Oliver's absence by using these characters. They literally had Chester fawning over Mia as if she was the Green Arrow he had heard about. She is a baby hero, with no history and barely an experience.   Mia may have a Green Arrow costume, but she is not Oliver and KM is not Stephen. His accomplishments, reputation, experience, popularity are not hers. Trying to put Mia at Oliver/Original, Veteran Green Arrow's level or pretend that she can fill his shoes, backfires, she comes off looking inferior everytime.

 

Quote

They really need to let Thawne go at this point. The writers have let him become such a one-dimensional, scene-chewing meh. After all this time, they can't give him a better reason for hating Barry beyond "you stole my thunder!"

Letting Reverse Flash get away is beyond ridiculous at this point but at least bring back Matt Letscher , he is fun to watch and he is the true Eobard Thawne. The fans want Matt to come back as Eobard, enough with Tom and his whispery thing. They were never gonna kill the character since they need him for the show's final season.  At least have Eobard/RF with his real face.

Edited December 18, 2021 by CabotCove

[Whodunnit]

Eobard needed to die.

We all know--given his genius level IQ and the fact that the writers just aren't creative enough not to do the obvious thing--that next season Eo will regain his speed again, break out of Argus, kill a few people and make Flash's life hell again proving Despero right. *Headdesk*

[AmigaJoe]

Iris said 'We see Bart and Nora all the time' Near the end of the ep. Who is Bart? Nora was partnered-up with Ray Palmer, last I heard...

[scarynikki12]

23 minutes ago, AmigaJoe said:

Iris said 'We see Bart and Nora all the time' Near the end of the ep. Who is Bart? Nora was partnered-up with Ray Palmer, last I heard...

She was referring to their future daughter Nora and their future son Bart. Bart arrived late last season.

[AmigaJoe]

Ah, there are 2 Nora's, forgot that. I thought she was referring to Nora Darhk. She and Bart Allen appeared in the picture at the end.

Oh! And Nora is Barry's mom's name too!

'SAaaVee...NORA!'

[legaleagle53]

2 hours ago, AmigaJoe said:

Ah, there are 2 Nora's, forgot that. I thought she was referring to Nora Darhk. She and Bart Allen appeared in the picture at the end.

Oh! And Nora is Barry's mom's name too!

'SAaaVee...NORA!'

It's also the name of the Speed Force, who modeled her physical form after Bart's mother Nora.

[Maverick]

 What was the point of bringing in the Mia/William stuff if they weren't going to resolve it.  And they even dropped in a new clue to story.  Is this supposed to be continued in some future Flash episode with Nora/Bart involved?  Where else would they be resolving this plotline?

 Chester's fanboying at every character that shows up is way past its expiration date.  They dropped that level up nonsense after an episode or two but Chester lingers on.  I'd be fine losing him, Frost, Allegra and sadly Cecile.  The cast is loaded with characters that seem forced in and pointless.   

[Featherhat]

On 12/17/2021 at 9:28 PM, Starry said:

The next time Mia pays them a visit, I would like the writers to have her interact with Iris with no mention of Oliver. Every time Iris says (or doesn't say) something about that man, that fandom comes down on her like a ton of bricks. Leave the Oliver mentions to Barry, Joe or even Caitlin who's someone who can say or do whatever and suffer no consequences with the writers and fans.

It's frustrating to me whoever does it. I got massively annoyed at Barry's "Oliver couldn't possibly have left me a purely sentimental gift! He wasn't like that!" When 5 minutes of watching Arrow would show differently - even the pilot. The Flash writers have such a simplistic view of everything and clearly didn't watch Arrow. Which is fine. But then they shouldn't write nonsense about it. 

Notice in this post and my first one, I never actually ever blame *Iris* for anything that came out of her mouth, I used the phrase "the writers". 

Quote

The showrunner really likes Arrow characters, so I assume he left the door open for more Mia appearances. Pretty sure Mia's not getting a second attempt at a spinoff, though.

I think the Bart and Nora mention was just to set up the next episode. And I'd say they could spin off Bart and Nora, however, a CW show might actually be a downgrade for Jordan Fisher.

I think the door is clearly open for potential further appearances otherwise they would have wrapped everything up. The reason I wondered about another spin off is that I think they'd still like a Legacies show and despite the setting up for the next ep it didn't seem co-incidental that Iris mentioned them to Mia. That said I would be happy to just hear that Mia rescued her brother and they are having adventures off screen. It's probably not something I would bother with at this point.

Quote

 What was the point of bringing in the Mia/William stuff if they weren't going to resolve it.  And they even dropped in a new clue to story.  Is this supposed to be continued in some future Flash episode with Nora/Bart involved?  Where else would they be resolving this plotline?

Diggle's big crossover appearances basically went nowhere so it wouldn't actually surprise me if they left Mia and William dangling, despite leaving the door wide open and everything unresolved. 

[Starry]

On 12/23/2021 at 3:08 PM, Featherhat said:

It's frustrating to me whoever does it. I got massively annoyed at Barry's "Oliver couldn't possibly have left me a purely sentimental gift! He wasn't like that!" When 5 minutes of watching Arrow would show differently - even the pilot. The Flash writers have such a simplistic view of everything and clearly didn't watch Arrow. Which is fine. But then they shouldn't write nonsense about it. 

Notice in this post and my first one, I never actually ever blame *Iris* for anything that came out of her mouth, I used the phrase "the writers".

Sorry I didn't mean to imply that you or anyone on this board was blaming Iris. It's just something I see on social media and other forums every time the writers have her mention Oliver's name. It's exhausting. That doesn't happen with Barry which is why I'd rather they leave the Oliver mentions to him (Barry gets more hate for Flashpoint).

I don't think the Flash writers have watched their own show. What happened to all the Earth-2 metas Barry offed? Did that get retconned by Flashpoint/Crisis too?

 

[adora721]

On 12/17/2021 at 1:28 PM, Starry said:

I think the point is that heroes can't carry out executions or just let someone die.

I agree, but letting Eobard fade from existence is the same thing they let Nora 1.0 do; fading from existence isn't the same thing as letting someone die. It is also morally reprehensible that Eobard and other villains get away with their crimes all. the. time. What a horrible message this show puts out into the world. At this point, team Flash is an accessory to whatever crimes they are allowing to go unpunished on their watch. This show no longer cares about justice.

Edited January 7, 2022 by adora721

[quarks]

1. William, when and if you ever escape from this particular kidnapping, I think you really need to have a heart to heart with other Arrowverse characters and discuss just why you are kidnapped so often and why you always need to be rescued. This was bad enough when you were just on Arrow but now you need to be rescued on another show.

2. Speaking of that, while I enjoyed seeing Mia, literally nothing she did in this episode made sense, including, not at random: time traveling (I know she's done that previously, but always with someone's help, not on her own); wanting to kill Damien Darhk over Original Laurel, someone she never met; blaming Damien and not the showrunners and CW/WB executives for Original Laurel's death; thinking that Felicity, who, last I checked, fell in love with and married Oliver "I have lost track of my kill count" Queen, would have a problem with killing people in order to save "Captured yet again, huh?" William.

3. Wow, Reverse-Flash. I'm all for holding grudges, especially on television, but couldn't you - or at least your scriptwriters - have come up with a better reason for said grudge?  Because that was new levels of petty.

4. I'm always up for a Jesse Martin speech, and the bit where he snapped "Barry, Iris, now!" and they gave each other those "ut oh, Dad's mad," looks, brilliant. That said --

Joe, it's not just that you're asking Barry and Iris to save a mass murderer. It's that every single moment that Team Flash spends on saving Reverse-Flash is time they aren't spending on saving other people. It might be different if Team Flash had nothing else to do, or if Reverse-Flash had shown any signs of being on the path of redemption at all. But he isn't - I'd even say he's one of the few Arrowverse villains who has gotten distinctly worse though the seasons. Not saying that they've all been redeemed, but usually the unredeemable ones only last one season. The ones who keep returning are the ones who either have shades of grey, or who are named Reverse-Flash or Lex Luthor.

5. I feel Despero can be best summed up as yet another waste of a talented actor.

6. The Joe West/Damien Darhk scene at the end there was a delight, though.