S03.E09: All the Bells Say

[aghst]

The writers may not have delved too much into the succession line for the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg.

They might have prioritized other details.

The point is to show what a climber and star fucker Greg is.  He didn't like her because he found her attractive.  He liked the status and the fact that Roman was chatting her up.

The whole "out of your league" ribbing probably made him try to climb the dating ladder or whatever that phrase Tom and Shiv told him about.

[smartymarty]

Quote

When Logan and Roman met with Mattson and after Logan rejected the deal, Mattson asks about the old deal having a new shape, then he purposefully gives a side look towards Roman, and Logan tells Roman to take off. On rewatch, it’s clear that Mattson is saying “Get rid of your son, then let’s talk.” Logan agrees.

I interpreted that as Mattson wanting Roman instead of Logan. It wouldn't be a "new shape" with Logan. But Logan saw that and got rid of Roman, telegraphing to Mattson that no, you just talk with me. I'll have to rewatch, myself, to see if I still think that.

I didn't find Roman so consoling to Kendall in the "crying" scene. He doesn't know how to be tender; only knows how to crack jokes. The great thing he did do, though, was put the lie to the label of murder on the accident. Finally!! We forum-writers have been saying that all season. Too bad Kendall didn't talk with Gerri back then instead of Logan.

Edited December 14, 2021 by smartymarty
never mind

[Pestilentia]

18 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

He didn't know he'd need to get rid of that clause before Tom's call.

I think Logan runs every scenario through his head and lays booby traps at every turn whether it's Plan A, Plan B, or Plan Z.     The ability to foresee and anticipate every possible outcome and cover your ass ahead of time on all of them is how moguls get to be moguls.

[MamaBird]

 

On 12/13/2021 at 10:15 PM, MizLottie said:

Call me horrible but I found this to be the funniest line of the night.

I loved the "clipped a kid with a Porsche" line, but I found the exchange with Shiv even funnier!  When Roman called over to her, "Shiv! You've killed a kid, right?" and she looks up from her phone call and says "Uhhhhhhh..... yah."  

Sarah Snook can deliver a line like nobody's business.

[Dminches]

3 hours ago, Pestilentia said:

I think Logan runs every scenario through his head and lays booby traps at every turn whether it's Plan A, Plan B, or Plan Z.     The ability to foresee and anticipate every possible outcome and cover your ass ahead of time on all of them is how moguls get to be moguls.

Not only that, he has dozens of lawyers and advisors at his fingertips.  It is foolish to think that the kids knew of the clause but he didn't. (I know you know this.)

 

21 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I also don't think Tom's been leaking to Logan all along. He made a big choice in this ep--he made a deal with the devil, one that hit Shiv on all sides at once.

I think Tom has been a mole all season.  It is my guess that he was the one who alerted Logan that the 4 kids were meeting which prompted Logan to send doughnuts.  You don't get to be as wealthy and powerful as Logan without having people working for you everywhere, including your daughter's husband.

[Enigma X]

I think Logan knew of the clause and that the kids (at least Shiv and Kendall knew he knew), but I don't think the kids anticipated their mother giving Logan the leverage he needed.

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, Pestilentia said:

I think Logan runs every scenario through his head and lays booby traps at every turn whether it's Plan A, Plan B, or Plan Z.     The ability to foresee and anticipate every possible outcome and cover your ass ahead of time on all of them is how moguls get to be moguls.

 

1 hour ago, Dminches said:

Not only that, he has dozens of lawyers and advisors at his fingertips.  It is foolish to think that the kids knew of the clause but he didn't. (I know you know this.)

But I don't think the idea is that people think he didn't know about the clause. They're saying that the reason he'd completed the deal with Marcia when they walked in was because of the clause. That wouldn't have been his first move since it required him having to give things to Caroline. He probably would have started off just wanting to manipulate the kids.

1 hour ago, Dminches said:

 

I think Tom has been a mole all season.  It is my guess that he was the one who alerted Logan that the 4 kids were meeting which prompted Logan to send doughnuts.  You don't get to be as wealthy and powerful as Logan without having people working for you everywhere, including your daughter's husband.

I think we lose Tom's story if we just assume he's been a mole all along. It robs this moment of any importance if he's just always been doing this--and makes the scene with Greg unnecessary. He wasn't struggling, in this case, just doggedly following his plan.

I also disagree with always seeing Logan as such a puppet master. If Logan's just everyone's puppet master knowing what's going on there's just no point. He's not that. We even saw that play out with the story where everyone was running around claiming he was five steps in front of everyone and then it turned out he hadn't even remembered to take medication that kept him aware of what was happening in the present. Then when it was over he just claimed he would have done something amazing without having to say what. 

[Dminches]

5 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

 

I think we lose Tom's story if we just assume he's been a mole all along. It robs this moment of any importance if he's just always been doing this--and makes the scene with Greg unnecessary. He wasn't struggling, in this case, just doggedly following his plan.

 

Maybe, but I think that is the reality.  When he met with Kendall at the diner he was already in Logan’s pocket.  He made the comment that Logan always wins and that was his likely his motivation for teaming with Logan.

Also, I don’t think he would have been so quick to allow himself to take the fall for Waystar and go to jail if he didn’t think Logan would take care of him.  He knew Logan would because they were already working together.

If at any time prior to the wedding Shiv had shown more love and allegiance to Tom he may have changed courses.  But, at every turn Shiv pushed Tom towards Logan.  She got what she deserved.

Finally, every scene for Tom with Greg is important because Greg is the only person with whom Tom feels like he has the upper hand.  All the others have power over him.  Tom needs Greg to feel better about himself.

 

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, Dminches said:

Maybe, but I think that is the reality.  When he met with Kendall at the diner he was already in Logan’s pocket.  He made the comment that Logan always wins and that was his likely his motivation for teaming with Logan.

I don't think he was in Logan's pocket. I think he did what everyone else did with Kendall--he gave him a shot, but wound up convinced it was smarter to stick with Logan. If he was going as Logan's stooge I don't think he'd have had that whole "Logan never gets fucked" moment. He was genuinely telling Kendall that he'd listened to him and come to the conclusion it would be stupid to side with him against Logan. 

But that's not the same thing as him working for Logan when he went there. He obviously concluded that Logan was the smarter bet--that's why he offered himself up as a sacrifice hoping it would lead to a reward. He was showing all that openly. But directly going against Shiv in secret? That's a huge step--and that's how it's presented. She's not suddenly realizing Tom's been betraying her all along, she's realizing Tom has decided to betray her.

1 minute ago, Dminches said:

Also, I don’t think he would have been so quick to allow himself to take the fall for Waystar and go to jail if he didn’t think Logan would take care of him.  He knew Logan would because they were already working together.

But there again it's erasing the story.  Tom openly offered himself as a sacrifice, openly stating that he hoped it would mean Logan would reward him later--so why have him also being doing it secretly? If Tom's got some deal with Logan where he basically knows what he's trading for jail time, he's not as tortured as he seems when he's contemplating going to prison and should be going to Logan for reassurance, not Shiv. In fact, his emotions about Shiv's reaction at the prospect of his going to prison have less meaning too, since he's already putting Logan first and betraying her first. 

1 minute ago, Dminches said:

If at any time prior to the wedding Shiv had shown more love and allegiance to Tom he may have changed courses.  But, at every turn Shiv pushed Tom towards Logan.  She got what she deserved.

I agree. But I think that's what's happening in that last scene. If Tom was already all in with Logan against Shiv none of the stuff she did to push him away this season mattered at all. She was the one being betrayed, not him.

1 minute ago, Dminches said:

Finally, every scene for Tom with Greg is important because Greg is the only person with whom Tom feels like he has the upper hand.  All the others have power over him.  Tom needs Greg to feel better about himself.

 

Sure every scene with them is important in some way, but in this scene he's clearly laying out a change of allegiance for both of them about something new and big he (Tom) is about to do. If he's been Logan's mole all along, he's not doing anything new and big. There's no deal with the devil for Greg in this version.

[Dminches]

2 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I agree. But I think that's what's happening in that last scene. If Tom was already all in with Logan against Shiv none of the stuff she did to push him away this season mattered at all. She was the one being betrayed, not him.

 

Do you not think Tom was the one who alerted Logan to the fact that the 4 kids were meeting and thus resulted in Logan sending doughnuts?  

 

[BlackberryJam]

4 minutes ago, Dminches said:

Do you not think Tom was the one who alerted Logan to the fact that the 4 kids were meeting and thus resulted in Logan sending doughnuts?  

 

At the time, and now, I still think that was Greg being indiscreet rather than a purposeful leak. 

ETA: Also adding I'm not sure if Logan knew they were all there, but he knew at least Shiv was, and likely Roman, and Roman was absolutely in Logan's pocket at the time, and wasn't even hiding it. 

Edited December 15, 2021 by BlackberryJam

[sistermagpie]

Just now, Dminches said:

Do you not think Tom was the one who alerted Logan to the fact that the 4 kids were meeting and thus resulted in Logan sending doughnuts?  

 

I don't honestly remember what I thought about it at the time. I know we see Tom deny knowing where Shiv is right after he finds out that she's with Kendall. He seems to be checking out her loyalty to her when he knows she's lying, but then she finally tells him the truth that all 4 kids are there. At the same time Roman is telling the same thing to Geri, who's telling Roman not to do it, to stick with her, and threatening him. But the donuts seem to arrive too soon to give either Tom or Geri time to be triggering Logan ordering them.

But for me, it's still more about the emotional stuff. In this scenario, the end of AtBS is about Shiv realizing she didn't have a husband and not Tom making a decision. And actually, the very fact that Shiv so immediately can see what Tom has done raises the question of why she didn't question him before, if he was working for Logan the whole time.

[aghst]

Thing about Logan promising Tom to take care of him is that he's also promised his children many things and we see how that turned out.

Tom's observation should not be that Logan never gets fucked but that Logan always fucks over others.

If he's going to screw over his kids, why wouldn't he screw Tom over?

Even in that last confrontation, he was trying to lie to Roman and then Shiv.  They kind of wised up but I wouldn't be surprised if in future seasons, they're tempted again.

[Ellaria]

1 hour ago, Dminches said:

Maybe, but I think that is the reality.  When he met with Kendall at the diner he was already in Logan’s pocket.  He made the comment that Logan always wins and that was his likely his motivation for teaming with Logan.

Also, I don’t think he would have been so quick to allow himself to take the fall for Waystar and go to jail if he didn’t think Logan would take care of him.  He knew Logan would because they were already working together.

I don't think that he was in Logan's pocket at that point. Tom isn't stupid. He can be an astute observer when he takes off his blinders, particularly about his wife. It is not unlikely that he noticed early on that Logan didn't lose. He also knew that his wife and his brothers-in-law didn't care whether he went to jail, etc.

In the S2 finale, we see that Tom wants to fight back (against being the blood sacrifice, threesomes, open marriage) but has no leverage. It is not impossible to think that he was waiting for the opportunity to make a move. Logan thanks him for volunteering to go to prison. He assists Logan in the men's room (although Logan may not remember it).

None of that is indicative that they were already working together, IMO. Instead, it indicates that Tom watches and understands how this family operates. His line to Kendall that "I've never seen Logan get f***ed" tells you all you need to know about Tom's instinct for survival.

47 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

But for me, it's still more about the emotional stuff. In this scenario, the end of AtBS is about Shiv realizing she didn't have a husband and not Tom making a decision. And actually, the very fact that Shiv so immediately can see what Tom has done raises the question of why she didn't question him before, if he was working for Logan the whole time.

Shiv didn't question Tom before because, in her eyes, he didn't matter. She underestimated him - and disregarded him - and that is a huge factor in why he betrayed her. While I don't believe that Tom was working for Logan the entire time, the fact that Shiv may not have ever considered that he would betray her tells us why he did.

What would Tom have done if, during the call from Shiv in the car, he had been promised a position of power and influence in the company? Would he still have alerted Logan?

[Dminches]

55 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't honestly remember what I thought about it at the time. I know we see Tom deny knowing where Shiv is right after he finds out that she's with Kendall. He seems to be checking out her loyalty to her when he knows she's lying, but then she finally tells him the truth that all 4 kids are there. At the same time Roman is telling the same thing to Geri, who's telling Roman not to do it, to stick with her, and threatening him. But the donuts seem to arrive too soon to give either Tom or Geri time to be triggering Logan ordering them.

But for me, it's still more about the emotional stuff. In this scenario, the end of AtBS is about Shiv realizing she didn't have a husband and not Tom making a decision. And actually, the very fact that Shiv so immediately can see what Tom has done raises the question of why she didn't question him before, if he was working for Logan the whole time.

I agree that the most “important” reveal in the finale was Shiv’s understanding that her husband had gone behind her back.  SS’s reaction and attempt to remain composed after that point was award-worthy. I don’t think it ever crossed her mind that Tom could be on the other side.  

[buttersister]

Quote

Tom needs Greg to feel better about himself.

This all day. So there's Greg, laying in the weeds waiting for his turn to turn on Tom. What goes around, comes around. Which is why Tom should know his time on Logan's good side is limited. (I don't believe he's been feeding intel all season, but could have here and there, where he thought it benefited him as much as volunteering to serve time.)

[sistermagpie]

53 minutes ago, Ellaria Sand said:

Shiv didn't question Tom before because, in her eyes, he didn't matter. She underestimated him - and disregarded him - and that is a huge factor in why he betrayed her. While I don't believe that Tom was working for Logan the entire time, the fact that Shiv may not have ever considered that he would betray her tells us why he did.

I agree with her pov in general, but she actually does question Tom in that earlier ep. When she tells Tom that she's with Kendall and the others, Tom's reaction doesn't sound surprised and she says, "What, did you know?" So Shiv's not thinking Tom's important doesn't mean she's never paying attention to stuff like that. Like here, she's got no more reason to think Tom's important than she ever did. But she knows somebody told Logan they were coming, and seeing Logan greet Tom knowing that Tom knew what was going on, let's her know it was Tom.

Of course, it's the framing of the greeting that really makes it clear to her. But there's also logic involved, just as there was when she asked Tom "What, did you know?" So my point is that in the donut scene it seems like the sibs all accept Logan would just know. If the donuts were presented as a sign of a mole, and there were only a few possibilities and one of them was Tom, I'm not sure Shiv would refuse to accept him as a suspect, even if he wasn't her first choice. (Though again, it doesn't actually seem like there's much time for either Geri or Tom to be the donut trigger!)

Plus what we the audience see in that earlier ep is Tom *covering* for Shiv, demanding reassurance from Shiv, and then getting the truth from Shiv. So it seems like pretty weird unfair storytelling for Tom to have actually made his decision to betray her in that ep, off-screen, instead of in this ep that has an actual scene of Tom basically telling Greg he's going to betray her!

52 minutes ago, Dminches said:

I agree that the most “important” reveal in the finale was Shiv’s understanding that her husband had gone behind her back.  SS’s reaction and attempt to remain composed after that point was award-worthy. I don’t think it ever crossed her mind that Tom could be on the other side.  

But I don't agree that Shiv realizing Tom went behind her back is more important than Tom deciding to go behind her back and betray her. That's the crux of the disagreement. We know it's important that Shiv realized Tom told Logan about their plan in the finale. We're disagreeing on the importance of Tom deciding to tell Logan about their plan in the finale. It's Tom's arc and Tom and Shiv's marriage arc that's vastly different if he's been working as a mole throughout S3. For Shiv it's the difference between realizing Tom's been betraying her for a long time vs. realizing she has now lost Tom.

[Ellaria]

4 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Plus what we the audience see in that earlier ep is Tom *covering* for Shiv, demanding reassurance from Shiv, and then getting the truth from Shiv. So it seems like pretty weird unfair storytelling for Tom to have actually made his decision to betray her in that ep, off-screen, instead of in this ep that has an actual scene of Tom basically telling Greg he's going to betray her!

Not really understanding your point here so perhaps I should better explain myself. I'm also not referencing the donut scene.

I believe that Tom made the decision to betray her right after that phone call. IMO, his decision was due, in part, because of everything that had gone on before and how he felt marginalized in every aspect of his life with her. I don't think that Tom was surprised when Shiv dismissed his question asking "what about me." He basically asked the same question twice and received a similar answer both times. Tom has been evaluating his situation since last season. He finally saw an opportunity and seized it.

[sistermagpie]

Just now, Ellaria Sand said:

Not really understanding your point here so perhaps I should better explain myself. I'm also not referencing the donut scene.

I believe that Tom made the decision to betray her right after that phone call. IMO, his decision was due, in part, because of everything that had gone on before and how he felt marginalized in every aspect of his life with her. I don't think that Tom was surprised when Shiv dismissed his question asking "what about me." He basically asked the same question twice and received a similar answer both times. Tom has been evaluating his situation since last season. He finally saw an opportunity and seized it.

Oh yes, I totally agree. I think I might have been unclear earlier when I was referring to the donut scene. But I see this season the same way. The season's basically bookended by two scenes of the sibs plotting together and the second one is very different from the first one. But Tom's also different by the end of the season. I don't think Tom could have made the kind of decision he does in this ep back then. Shiv's still dismissive of his "what about me?" question, but everything he's gone through makes him react to it differently. 

So just realized again, it's fitting that Logan has those *two* moments where he puts his arm on Tom's arm/shoulder. When Tom finds out he won't be going to prison Shiv's barely able to offer a toast to Tom for what he'd done, and that's after she always blew off Tom's terror over going to prison. It's Logan who takes a moment to really acknowledge what he did and say he wouldn't forget. And he greets him with a similar gesture when he shows up in this ep. 

Of course, that doesn't mean that Logan won't betray Tom in the future, but I can certainly get where Tom's coming from!

[Ellaria]

25 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Oh yes, I totally agree. I think I might have been unclear earlier when I was referring to the donut scene. But I see this season the same way. The season's basically bookended by two scenes of the sibs plotting together and the second one is very different from the first one. But Tom's also different by the end of the season. I don't think Tom could have made the kind of decision he does in this ep back then. Shiv's still dismissive of his "what about me?" question, but everything he's gone through makes him react to it differently. 

So just realized again, it's fitting that Logan has those *two* moments where he puts his arm on Tom's arm/shoulder. When Tom finds out he won't be going to prison Shiv's barely able to offer a toast to Tom for what he'd done, and that's after she always blew off Tom's terror over going to prison. It's Logan who takes a moment to really acknowledge what he did and say he wouldn't forget. And he greets him with a similar gesture when he shows up in this ep. 

Of course, that doesn't mean that Logan won't betray Tom in the future, but I can certainly get where Tom's coming from!

Agree! And Logan will totally betray Tom in the future. Kendall, Shiv and Roman have all had "their turn" being Logan's favored one. S4 is Tom's turn and it will not end well. 

[heatherchandler]

On 12/13/2021 at 10:15 AM, Lassus said:

It didn't seem a poor fit to me, simply made to be tight and form-fitting.  Subjective?

I have seen so many articles about her clothes this episode, and the whole season, most of them discussing how tight and cheap and bunched up the dress looks on her, and a few touched on how it was maybe done on purpose, as an analogy to something.. no one was quite sure.  But the tight dress and ankle straps, along with the low angles did her no favors.

 

On 12/13/2021 at 11:25 AM, Carolina Girl said:

I vote for the Greg line.  I totally snorted when he said that.  

My favorite line was when Tom asked about LackeySlack and Greg says, "it's a private chat..."  I love Greg.

[heatherchandler]

On 12/14/2021 at 6:58 AM, Dminches said:

I agree but he would want a signed agreement in place and not have to worry that Caroline would flip (again) after speaking to one of the kids.  That's why I don't think the revised agreement had been hashed out in the preceding 20 minutes since the kids left the wedding.

 

I think someone figured it out and it was a 3 hour drive from the wedding to where Logan's mobile office location was.

[Francie]

I don't think Tom was the mole all along. No one who thought he was in Logan's pocket would have been prepping for prison like Tom was. The man ate diner food, for goodness sake. Multiple times! That's a man without options or hope. 

We saw a man beaten down over the season. There was Shiv's lack of concern for his predicament. There was his realization or at least his articulation of the realization, when meeting with Kendall, that Logan never loses. Very importantly, there was that critical moment earlier when Logan squeezed Tom's arm and said he'd remember. That moment, along with Logan choosing him to escort him to the bathroom and the intimacy they shared in Tom helping him gave him the courage to even approach Logan directly. Those two moments -- especially Logan's declaration of remembering -- emboldened Tom in a way that never would have occurred to the Tom we met in the series premiere who was wracked with anxiety at buying Logan a birthday present.  It wouldn't have even occurred to this season's premiere Tom, who had to run to the bathroom and secretly call Shiv. Tom would have been too scared to approach Logan directly, at least until the shareholder's meeting.

My theory on who tipped off Logan about the four kids meeting is Willa. There was one reference in season 2 -- I think it was the MoLester funeral episode, where Willa mentioned that she had been talking with Marcia lately. And, then, in this season's finale, we have Connor telling us he learned about the maca root from Willa, whom Kerry told. Following that, we have a specific moment where Kendall or Roman calls Connor from the car on the way to meet Logan.  You know he told Willa about it. Just like he would have told Willa he was going over to Kendall's wife's townhome back in episode one. It was Tom in the final episode, but it wasn't him who ratted out the kids in the first episode. 

 

 

[ShellsandCheese]

On 12/13/2021 at 8:14 AM, stacyasp said:

She’s got a big butt and that dress was not the best style/ cut for her...but fat no.

Sarah Snook does not have a big butt, nor is she fat. She’s a smaller than average bottom heavy pear shaped woman. 

[Rowan]

This show.

I veer wildly between complete disgust and reluctant sympathy for each of these grown ass children every episode.  

I don’t know how I can find myself rooting for them to topple Logan, but here I am. He’s despicable. 
 

 

[Pestilentia]

I think Tom is simply a crapweasel with no loyalty toward anyone- he'll side with whomever is dangling the tastiest carrot at the time.   Tom is easily led.  Tom is a tool in more ways than one.  If Shiv had half a brain she would see him and utilize him to further her own position, but no she can't even do that- she's too consumed with her own fantasy pursuits.

I despise both of them. Why did the show give these two career obsessed morons a dog? They barely ever speak to Mondale- he's either in a crate/expen, in his bed, or eating Shivs clothing. They've alluded to "the help"  and his dogwalker but again- why do they even have him? If he's supposed to make them look like a 'real' couple or family, or homey, or "just like us"  then you'd think they'd at least have one scene outdoors with poor Mondale getting some stimulation outside that penthouse. I feel sorrier for the dog than anyone else in this whole mess- he's trapped in his gilded cage just like the rest of them.

I don't believe I have seen an explanation for the episode title "All the Bells Say"- do we know what that is in reference to?

[Ellaria]

1 hour ago, Pestilentia said:

I don't believe I have seen an explanation for the episode title "All the Bells Say"- do we know what that is in reference to?

There are a number of articles discussing this, referencing a poem by John Berryman titled "Dream Song 29." The titles of all three season finales have come from this poem. I won't offer my interpretation since poetry is best left to the individual to analyze and decipher.

Here is an article from 2019 when Jesse Armstrong is asked specifically about that poem:

https://www.vulture.com/2019/10/succession-season-2-finale-jesse-armstrong.html

Edited December 16, 2021 by Ellaria Sand

[dmc]

Saw this and decided to post.  This came through for me, that it wasn’t meant to be a betrayal 

[vibeology]

On 12/15/2021 at 6:19 AM, Pestilentia said:

I think Logan runs every scenario through his head and lays booby traps at every turn whether it's Plan A, Plan B, or Plan Z.     The ability to foresee and anticipate every possible outcome and cover your ass ahead of time on all of them is how moguls get to be moguls.

He may have been that person in the past but I don't think he's that person now. His business is in steep decline. Over the course of a week or maybe two they went from acquiring GoJo to being acquired by GoJo. And the original plan to acquire GoJo came from Kendall. Logan's most recent idea was to go back to Pierce. They've talked about the decline in the stock price. In 2021 they don't have a streaming platform that works despite being a Disney like company with high quality content. Even HBO has mostly fixed their platform. Logan had no plan for the Shareholder's meeting based on his inability to tell Shiv what he would have done and managed to make things even worse by forgetting to take his UTI pills. The company he runs is embroiled in scandal. He played the ATN/Raisin situation all wrong and lost an ally in the White House. He lost the support of Adrien Brody and didn't even know it was happening until after he almost died.

The things that have gone right for him this season aren't things he had control over. Mattson put together a plan and that only happened because Roman made it happen. They were safe at the shareholders meeting because Shiv stepped up and made a deal with Sandi. He secured the GoJo deal at the end because Tom turned on Shiv and gave Logan a head's up so that he could work things out with Caroline before the kids interfered. He's really only clear of the DoJ because Kendall overpromised, underdelivered and acted like an ass in his interview.

Logan got lucky. And that's enough some of the time but his decline is clear and will catch up to him eventually.

[peachmangosteen]

5 minutes ago, dmc said:

Saw this and decided to post.  This came through for me, that it wasn’t meant to be a betrayal 

That's how I took it as well.

[Milburn Stone]

On 12/12/2021 at 9:20 PM, Johnny Dollar said:

I love Tom’s angle, but I don’t know why he needs Greg. What does he bring to the fight that makes him an attack dog?

Let me get this straight on Tom's angle. I infer that somehow Tom had something to do with Caroline thwarting the kids' plot. But A) I realize now that I'm not sure how Caroline actually did that, and B) I'm not sure how Tom persuaded her to do whatever it was. Any help appreciated!

(This may have been asked and answered already, but I'd love to understand without poring through all 229 previous posts. I promise I will catch up later!)

[rhygirl720]

upon rewatch:

The Tuscan light? simply stunning!

Willa and Con? you go girl. I mean seriously you could do a lot worse.

The Roy children again? no chance from go because their parents are so damaged. and damaging. Caroline so incredibly self-absorbed. Logan? just wow. I win. his kids are his enemies.

Ken seems so off when he is not high on something which really makes me think there is something not quite right with him mentally. He is awkward but scary smart about the business but somehow one step off.

Shiv, man I felt sorry for her but not. This is the house she built. Her dress at the wedding was beautiful but the length did her no favors. A tea length or slightly above the knee? much more elegant. It's once again just not quite right. Her face at the end realizing her husband betrayed her? impeccably acted.

Poor twisted Roman. Rebuked by Geri. his father and mother as well as the Contessa. Where does he go from here? 

 Tom? wow! long time building but the payoff was unreal. I knew what he was doing the moment he had that conversation with Greg.

Greg absolutely no center, no soul. complete black hole. For all his aw shucks.

The scene between Madsen and Logan? Two lions. Logan realized he met his match. Took the easy route screw the kids. That look Madsen gave him regarding Roman?? The ending was already set just hammering out the details. 

[Dminches]

This writer certainly feels like Tom has been on Team Logan for a while.

https://www.vulture.com/article/succession-season-3-finale-foreshadowed.html

 

[evansmom10]

Sorry but, it has to be said. I don't think (and there are several posts) I have seen one post about: Logan's ill fitting clothes or lumpy body, Roman's too tight shirts, and boyish, scrawny body or Kendall's large brown pants not suiting his muscular figure. What I HAVE seen are posters dissecting Shiv's body, clothes or outright calling her fat. And it's to be expected given the society we live in, but pretty lame nonetheless. 

[sistermagpie]

5 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

Let me get this straight on Tom's angle. I infer that somehow Tom had something to do with Caroline thwarting the kids' plot. But A) I realize now that I'm not sure how Caroline actually did that, and B) I'm not sure how Tom persuaded her to do whatever it was. Any help appreciated!

(This may have been asked and answered already, but I'd love to understand without poring through all 229 previous posts. I promise I will catch up later!)

Tom didn't actually have anything to do with the deal with Caroline. He just told Logan what the kids were planning, that they were going to stand against him, knowing about the clause in his divorce settlement that said he needed a supermajority to change ownership. 

Caroline thwarted the kids by agreeing to get rid of the clause in the divorce settlement in order to get something she wanted. Logan persuaded her to do that, not Tom. 

4 hours ago, Dminches said:

This writer certainly feels like Tom has been on Team Logan for a while.

https://www.vulture.com/article/succession-season-3-finale-foreshadowed.html

 

Can't read it behind the paywall, but I agree with the word "foreshadowed" in the title. It's not like Tom siding with Logan came out of nowhere. 

[Milburn Stone]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Tom didn't actually have anything to do with the deal with Caroline. He just told Logan what the kids were planning, that they were going to stand against him, knowing about the clause in his divorce settlement that said he needed a supermajority to change ownership. 

Thank you, @sistermagpie! And I think this explains why Tom brought Greg in as his "attack dog."

Namely, Greg is useless as an attack dog and Tom totally doesn't need him for that. He needs him for another reason. Fast forward to the day when the kids are out and Tom has a high position in Waystar Royco. The only thing that could bring him down from that high perch is Greg spilling the beans on the document-shredding. Greg might totally spill if he was out on his ear and had nothing to lose. Or he might blackmail Tom in return for his silence. But Greg won't do that if he has something to lose. So Tom's plan is to bring Greg along, maybe right under him in the new Waystar Royco flow chart, where Greg would have plenty to lose if he ever ratted out Tom.

Edited December 17, 2021 by Milburn Stone

[Crone]

Another thought about Shiv’s clothes- remember when she thought dear old dad was actually gonna come through for her? Then it was all nicely tailored pantsuits, professional looking stuff. Lately she’s been falling apart and so has her wardrobe. Too tight and not stylish- those ankle straps on her shoes made her legs look short, dresses look like they’re riding up, nothing looks expensive, etc. I have to think it’s deliberate on the part of the story tellers. (Not my thought- I read it somewhere, but it makes sense to me.)

[Pestilentia]

21 hours ago, vibeology said:

Logan got lucky. And that's enough some of the time but his decline is clear and will catch up to him eventually.

Oh, of course. I think Logan has finally met his match (old age) and has been panicking over the meeting for some time now.   

It's slipping away- he's lost his grip. IMO selling is his way of saying "I meant to do that!"  He's trying to maintain his facade of controlling events because he knows he's losing it anyway. And IMO he's got a really bad case of being the 'dog in the manger' but only with respect to his children. He simply doesn't want any of them to succeed him. Period.

I did want to talk about Logan's reaction to meeting Mattson. Remembering how Adrien Brody tried to kill Logan and took perverse glee in humiliating him by walking him to death? Mattson was the polar opposite- markedly polite and respectful. Calling him a legend, being extremely deferential and still kindly and gently reminding Logan what a dinosaur he is.   

Do we think Mattson's demeanor there had any influence on the deal or would Logan have stayed and dealt with him even if he had he been less respectful? Would Logan really respond to being 'handled' like that? It had to have been clear to him that Mattson was indeed 'handling' him- did it not matter to him or did he swallow it? And if he did then did he swallow it sincerely or purely to make the deal? I would have loved to watch that negotiation.

[Milburn Stone]

34 minutes ago, Pestilentia said:

Do we think Mattson's demeanor there had any influence on the deal or would Logan have stayed and dealt with him even if he had he been less respectful? Would Logan really respond to being 'handled' like that? It had to have been clear to him that Mattson was indeed 'handling' him- did it not matter to him or did he swallow it? And if he did then did he swallow it sincerely or purely to make the deal? I would have loved to watch that negotiation.

These are great questions. I believe they're only answerable for each of us by our response not to Logan but to Brian Cox's performance as Logan in that scene, and to Skarsgård's performance as Mattson. I know what my response was to the portrayals that came over my TV screen. It involved my knowledge of the human truth that people can genuinely feel more than one feeling at the same time--and often do!--and this makes each one of those multiple feelings no less genuine. I.e., Mattson, as played by Skarsgård, has genuine respect for Logan, and knows that showing that respect will get him what he wants. Logan, as played by Cox, knows that Mattson is probably manipulating him, and is genuinely touched by what he knows is the genuine respect Mattson also feels, and knows it's time for him to get out, and needs to do it in the way that preserves him the most dignity.

Edited December 17, 2021 by Milburn Stone

[Lassus]

On 12/16/2021 at 6:58 AM, Pestilentia said:

I despise both of them. Why did the show give these two career obsessed morons a dog?

Yes.  I know it's to make them seem even douchier, but it's really a very grating plot point.

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, Pestilentia said:

 

It's slipping away- he's lost his grip. IMO selling is his way of saying "I meant to do that!"  He's trying to maintain his facade of controlling events because he knows he's losing it anyway. And IMO he's got a really bad case of being the 'dog in the manger' but only with respect to his children. He simply doesn't want any of them to succeed him. Period.

I've never heard that expression "dog in the manager" - what does it mean?

4 hours ago, Pestilentia said:

I did want to talk about Logan's reaction to meeting Mattson. Remembering how Adrien Brody tried to kill Logan and took perverse glee in humiliating him by walking him to death? Mattson was the polar opposite- markedly polite and respectful. Calling him a legend, being extremely deferential and still kindly and gently reminding Logan what a dinosaur he is.   

Do we think Mattson's demeanor there had any influence on the deal or would Logan have stayed and dealt with him even if he had he been less respectful? Would Logan really respond to being 'handled' like that? It had to have been clear to him that Mattson was indeed 'handling' him- did it not matter to him or did he swallow it? And if he did then did he swallow it sincerely or purely to make the deal? I would have loved to watch that negotiation.

I do think it must have--but maybe just in the sense that Logan would no doubt find it impossible to sell to anyone who made him feel like he was laughing at him. Brody seemed to never really be serious about doing anything but screwing him over, so I don't know how different that would have been, but with Mattson, yes, I think he was smart enough to do that his genuine respect for Logan was an asset. Logan doesn't seem the type to be completely vulnerable to insincere flattery, but Mattson knew just how to approach him. I'm also thinking of Mattson saying perfection bothered him now. I can believe he saw Logan as intriguing and wanted the challenge of taking on the company. He was just obviously very attuned to the emotional dynamics going on and always chose to make them easier.

[CatWarmer]

5 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I've never heard that expression "dog in the manager" - what does it mean?

 

It goes back to a Greek fable where there's a dog in a manger (barn) who doesn't want to eat the grain but won't let the horse have it.  It now refers to anyone who prevents others from having something for which they have no use - mainly out of ill will.

[Eliot]

On 12/13/2021 at 7:48 PM, Dminches said:

All Tom did was alert Logan to the fact that the 3 kids were coming for him.  Logan had already made a deal with Caroline.  Tom just gave Logan a heads up.  Tom is probably hoping that Logan put in a good word with Mattson so he can retain a top position at the company.

My bet is that Logan had already changed the agreement with Caroline.  I don’t think he would leave that up to chance.  He knew that an attempted coup was always possible.

 

Yeah, I loved the episode but that was a big question mark my mind. His lawyers would have been all over that divorce agreement regardless of whether the kids were coming for him or not. He had to have known that they would oppose the deal individually, as well as collectively. So, ultimately, I am not really sure what Tom’s heads up really gained anyone.

Edited December 19, 2021 by Eliot

[xaxat]

16 minutes ago, Eliot said:

Yeah, I loved the episode but that was a big question mark my mind. His lawyers would have been all over that divorce agreement regardless of whether the kids were coming for him or not. He had to have known that they would oppose the deal. So, ultimately, I am not really sure what Tom’s heads up really gained him.

Logan's team also did due diligence on the family trust when the tried to buy out Kendall.

He knew.

Edited December 19, 2021 by xaxat

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Eliot said:

Yeah, I loved the episode but that was a big question mark my mind. His lawyers would have been all over that divorce agreement regardless of whether the kids were coming for him or not. He had to have known that they would oppose the deal individually, as well as collectively. So, ultimately, I am not really sure what Tom’s heads up really gained anyone.

It gained Tom Logan's favor. That's all Tom was going for.

[Eliot]

18 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

It gained Tom Logan's favor. That's all Tom was going for.

True. And it was a betrayal on Tom’s part, no doubt. But it wasn’t like the divorce agreement and the bylaws were some big secret Tom was revealing or reminding Logan about. Of course Logan knew, and his lawyers knew. Caroline’s betrayal would’ve happened regardless of what Tom did.

Edited December 19, 2021 by Eliot

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Eliot said:

True. And it was a betrayal on Tom’s part, no doubt. But I wasn’t like the divorce agreement and the bylaws were some big secret Tom was revealing or reminding Logan about. Of course Logan knew, and his lawyers knew. Caroline’s betrayal would’ve happened regardless of what Tom did.

Absolutely. The only difference was that Logan could reveal it dramatically when the kids presented their plan to him, so he was two steps ahead. If he hadn't known beforehand the result would have been the same, but he'd just have done it later. He could change the agreement with Caroline any time and she would have been up for it.

[Eliot]

6 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

He could change the agreement with Caroline any time and she would have been up for it.

Not if he wanted to lock down the deal with GoJo that weekend, which it appears they did.  There is no way the GoJo lawyers would have let that slide. Every detail needed to be shaken out right then.

[Lassus]

I mean, it's also drama and fiction.  I'm not entirely convinced "It could have happened whenever he wanted and he already knew about it and it wasn't a thing and..." is what they were going for when all this was written and filmed.

[Hera]

On 12/19/2021 at 3:12 AM, Eliot said:

Yeah, I loved the episode but that was a big question mark my mind. His lawyers would have been all over that divorce agreement regardless of whether the kids were coming for him or not. He had to have known that they would oppose the deal individually, as well as collectively. So, ultimately, I am not really sure what Tom’s heads up really gained anyone.

The best I can reason it is that it let Logan get to Caroline before their kids did. Caroline might not have been so ready to roll over on the relevant aspects of the divorce settlement as quickly as she did if her kids had spoken to her first. But they didn't think to do that. And for Logan's part, he probably didn't need as large a bribe as he might have if Caroline had known how important that clause was to everyone involved.