S04.E01: Kobayashi Maru

[starri]

No description yet.

[paigow]

When did the transporters become Batpoles? Tilly and Adira beamed off the bridge wearing regular uniforms but show up on the space station with LED suits...

[mrspidey]

I see no reason why transporters shouldn't be able to put stuff on you during beaming. 

It's kind of the reverse of what the bio filters do.

Edited November 18, 2021 by mrspidey

[paigow]

In 1000 years nobody built a new simulation scenario? 

ETA: Kirk is the only cadet to beat the simulation in 1000 years and the space dock is named after Archer???? WTF??!!!

Edited November 18, 2021 by paigow

[Primal Slayer]

Just started and Michael is still annoying. Why would she bring her boyfriend to interact with this butterfly world instead of someone from Starfleet on her ship that is better equipped? 

[thuganomics85]

Not sure which guest character wore the obvious big sign of their generic character description: the new Federation President and her "I am her to be an obstacle for our hero and be vilified (even though I'm kind of right on some levels)" sign or the station commander and his "I'm here to get killed off in order to raise the stakes/provoke emotional responses, since we ain't killing any of the regulars (yet?)" sign.

Well, I guess that wasn't the worst first contact to ever happen, but I do question a lot of Michael's decisions there: especially only bring Booker with her.  Speaking of which, Booker, I know you love Grudge and everything, but maybe don't bring her along on missions where it can easily go south.  Like apparently dealing with an alien species that looks at the concept of "pets" as some form of imprisonment and go all out to save "the queen."

Liked the stuff with Saru on his home planet and seeing Su'Kal again, but it already looks like they're setting him up to go back to Discovery.

Yay, things are going better for Vance and his family!  Always down for more Oded Fehr!

Tilly also gets a promotion?

Blu del Barrio gets upgraded to regular status, I see.

So, whatever the hell is going on is big enough to destroy entire planets: including Booker's home planet.  Of all the Treks, Discovery is certainly the one that has the biggest catastrophic events for its crew to deal with!  

[Affogato]

4 hours ago, paigow said:

In 1000 years nobody built a new simulation scenario? 

ETA: Kirk is the only cadet to beat the simulation in 1000 years and the space dock is named after Archer???? WTF??!!!

Makes sense. ‘Archer’ launching the  reborn federation as he launched the first one. 
 

Kirk should get something at the new academy. Student center. Video game. For the simulation stunt, I mean. 

Edited November 19, 2021 by Affogato

[Affogato]

3 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

Just started and Michael is still annoying. Why would she bring her boyfriend to interact with this butterfly world instead of someone from Starfleet on her ship that is better equipped? 

Because he’s an empath

[starri]

I legitimately had a Moment when they used a little bit of "Archer's Theme" when the President revealed the spacedock.  It was one of the best things about Enterprise.  

A+ on the revision to the uniforms, and I wasn't honestly sure I'd like them but they're great in action. And also for having, perhaps for the first time in franchise history, dress uniforms that look better than the duty ones.

I thought this ended up as a really good episode.  

[paigow]

Recycle the Burn... Mix in the Q paradox anomaly from TNG finale and sprinkle deadly rocks from Armageddon.

Edited November 19, 2021 by paigow

[jcin617]

Took me a quick second to note the Federation President is part Cardassian.

[starri]

30 minutes ago, jcin617 said:

Took me a quick second to note the Federation President is part Cardassian.

Looking at her nose, I believe she's also Bajoran.

[paulvdb]

2 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Speaking of which, Booker, I know you love Grudge and everything, but maybe don't bring her along on missions where it can easily go south.  Like apparently dealing with an alien species that looks at the concept of "pets" as some form of imprisonment and go all out to save "the queen."

I suppose it's not entirely surprising considering that this new Federation names a space dock after the first Starfleet captain whose pet screwed up a mission.

[Stardancer Supreme]

3 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Well, I guess that wasn't the worst first contact to ever happen, but I do question a lot of Michael's decisions there: especially only bring Booker with her.  Speaking of which, Booker, I know you love Grudge and everything, but maybe don't bring her along on missions where it can easily go south.  Like apparently dealing with an alien species that looks at the concept of "pets" as some form of imprisonment and go all out to save "the queen."

Unfortunately, Grudge lives on Booker's ship, so where he goes, she goes.  I did side eye Michael's dependence on Book's emapathic powers;  has he even gotten to the point to make them happen at will?

The president was snooty as hell, but she did have the ability to punch Michael in her jeans. "Oh, I know you singlehandedly revived Starfleet, but you are reckless AF."  The president can stay.

Damn. Who let loose a Planet Killer?  Poor Book. He lost his people and home planet. That's messed up!

[MissLucas]

I dropped out last season and checked back now. Burnham is still riding on a mighty high horse. The President was right in everything she said but I'm sure we're supposed to take Burnham's side.

Booker might be an empath but I did not see much of that during the meeting with the butterfly people or of Burnham knowing anything about diplomatic protocols. I suspect the President would have handled that better because she tends to read files (apparently another sign of her duplicitousness).

And then there was a disturbance in the Force. Might be the Flux 😁

[Stardancer Supreme]

15 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

I dropped out last season and checked back now. Burnham is still riding on a mighty high horse. The President was right in everything she said but I'm sure we're supposed to take Burnham's side.

There's no sides, per se;  the President was merely shopping for a Captain for Voyager, clearly saw that Michael isn't right for the position, and told her why.  I approve of folk hurting Michael's feelings every once in a while. 

[Primal Slayer]

2 hours ago, Affogato said:

Because he’s an empath

It didnt help much but is she going to bring him to every planet over her crew? Its always been my biggest pet peeve w/how much she's disconnected from them and they have to worship at her feet.

[CarpeFelis]

Call me singleminded but while Book was getting thrown around all I could think of was “Where is Grudge? Tell me Grudge is all right!”

[dwmarch]

I had a laugh at the President's line about there being a fine line between a pendulum and a wrecking ball. I generally don't have trouble telling them apart but maybe they're different in the future.

I also noticed the presto-changeo outfits, I assume that is programmable matter in action rather than crewmembers taking the time to put on shiny black armor that doesn't actually do anything.

[paigow]

Those Butterfly people know that "No Strings Attached" is not to be taken literally, but take "Queen" literally... WTF???!!!

And they should have killed Burnham & Book on the spot for being carnivores / omnivores...

[Affogato]

9 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

It didnt help much but is she going to bring him to every planet over her crew? Its always been my biggest pet peeve w/how much she's disconnected from them and they have to worship at her feet.

Honestly I don’t find the writing that annoying. She is a fairly complex character and she’s going to not only make mistakes and also deliberately do things people disagree with. It isn’t a bug it’s a feature. also for a lot of the show she was the outsider or off on her own or with Book. She has been disconnected from them.  And as the boss her relationships with everyone just changed again. If they were super close knit it would have been a different show. 

worship at her feet?  I think considering she is kind of the hero of many of them. But that also makes sense. 
 

Edited November 19, 2021 by Affogato

[paigow]

9 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Damn. Who let loose a Planet Killer?  Poor Book. He lost his people and home planet. That's messed up!

Nero did it... OR

but cloaked

Edited November 19, 2021 by paigow

[marinw]

Is Dilithium a metaphor for Fossil Fuels? What about that time on TNG it was determined that Warp Drives were harmful to the fabric of space? Or did they solve that problem?

That episode was...there. I think 1000 years in the future society would have changed radically, but maybe not.

Edited November 19, 2021 by marinw

[paigow]

7 minutes ago, marinw said:

What about that time on TNG it was determined that Warp Drives were harmfull to the fabric of space? Or dod they solve that problem?

A speed limit of Warp 5 for all Federation vessels was imposed. Emergency approval from Starfleet was required for exceptions...

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, marinw said:

Is Dilithium a metaphor for Fossil Fuels? 

That episode was...there. I think 1000 in the future society would have changed radically, but maybe not

Definitely dilithium=fossil fuels. 

yes you would think there would be more change or at least some change. Maybe on individual planets. We are mostly just seeing the federation. 

[Athena5217]

I’m having a lot of mixed feelings about Michael as captain. On the one hand, I think it’s great for the franchise to have a Black female captain in the main cast. On the other hand, I fear Michael is a more interesting character when she is on the outside. 
 

I guess Booker is the Discovery equivalent of Deanna Troi.

[starri]

13 hours ago, MissLucas said:

The President was right in everything she said but I'm sure we're supposed to take Burnham's side.

I didn't get that impression, actually.  Nothing she said was unreasonable, and Michael didn't really seem to take offense to it.

Unless she's going to give us Secret Villain vibes--which, given that we didn't get that with Vance last year, I doubt--I think she's a great addition.  She's clearly a really good politician.

Apparently I wasn't the only one verklempt at "Archer's Theme."

[Affogato]

Just rewatched the beginning. She took book because his ship is set up to transport the dilithium. I bet. Likely not enough room on the shuttles. Or shielding or whatever. 

Edited November 19, 2021 by Affogato

[Ottis]

On 11/18/2021 at 7:39 PM, MissLucas said:

I dropped out last season and checked back now. Burnham is still riding on a mighty high horse. The President was right in everything she said but I'm sure we're supposed to take Burnham's side.

I actually think it is the opposite, and for that I'm glad. I think the show did a nice job of setting up a reasonable position, posited by the president, that Michael is extremely qualified but her flaw is her need to basically be dramatic (in the interests of saving people). The way the show had the president talk about this makes me hope they continue to make the debate reasonable and not all "Michael is always right." Because "Michael is a snowflake" nearly derailed the first seasons of Discovery.

I dug everything about this episode except naming the space dock Archer, given Enterprise was the only ST I ever quit watching because it was so, so bad and un-Trek. Shoot, I have even seen every animated show.

I loved the camera movement in the crises, from one key person to another as they examined and solved the problem. Loved the upside down station. Loved the Trek warm and fuzzies about "that's what we do" re: Starfleet. And I loved the horror of the ending and what had happened.

Apparently we have a mobile planet destroyer as the baddie, which I also like. Not an intelligence, not a war - a natural phenomena (at least, as far as we know) that is wreaking havoc.

Trek needs to be about something (other than smug captains, Archer) to be great. Discovery started to find that place with Pike, and now has continued it with the evolving Michael. Now it just needs to keep showing "modern" camera techniques and interesting new concepts. I hope it stays this way.

P.S. Did anyone actually mention Kirk in the Maru dialogue? If so, I didn't hear it.

 

Edited November 20, 2021 by Ottis

[starri]

18 minutes ago, Ottis said:

I dug everything about this episode except naming the space dock Archer, given Enterprise was the only ST I ever quit watching because it was so, so bad and un-Trek. Shoot, I have even seen every animated show.

I think--on paper--it should have had me rolling my eyes, but I think it works on both a meta and in-universe level. The Federation is essentially starting from scratch, given that of all the characters we've met, the Vulcans and the Trill symbionts are likely the only ones to remember the pre-Burn galaxy.  In a lot of ways, this is the where the United Earth Starfleet was, and I can see wanting to honor that.

On a more meta level, as divisive as Enterprise was (including to myself), there are plenty of fans who consider it a beloved and important part of the franchise.  It's nice that it can still be a part of the show's legacy, even with its shortcomings. 

[paigow]

1 hour ago, Ottis said:

P.S. Did anyone actually mention Kirk in the Maru dialogue?

No.... BUT somebody should have... either Vance or the President

[marinw]

On 11/19/2021 at 8:15 AM, paigow said:

Nero did it... OR

but cloaked

Edited Yest. at 08:32 AM by paigow

That bears an uncomfortable resemblance to Omuramura:

 

 

So is the President of the Federation elected or appointed? That isn't made clear.

[Ceindreadh]

On 11/19/2021 at 12:03 AM, Affogato said:

Makes sense. ‘Archer’ launching the  reborn federation as he launched the first one. 
 

Kirk should get something at the new academy. Student center. Video game. For the simulation stunt, I mean. 

STD clinic? 😜

[tennisgurl]

I was never a fan of Enterprise a show or Archer as a character, who's first contacts made Michael and Book's messy first contact with the butterfly people look like smooth sailing, but the reference still made me smile. As divisive as that show was, its still a much beloved part of the franchise to many people and it still deserves to be remembered. Its also rather thematically appropriate to name it after one of the people who helped start the Federation as the Federation is basically starting over again.

I thought this was a pretty good start to the season, although of course things were going way too well and everyone was in way too good of a mood, so of course poor Book's planet has to be destroyed, even after everything their planet has already been through. Poor guy, at least he still has Grudge. I also very much approve of Grudge getting a dress uniform, on the grounds of her apparently being an important part of a first contact situation and also it being adorable. 

I like the new president, I hope that they wont have to make her a bad guy and that she is allowed to actually make some good points about issues that Michael really does have. She isn't wrong that captains have to make tough choices and that they cant save everyone, or that Michael constantly putting herself in the line of fire because she wants to be the hero is a terrible idea, losing a captain can lead to even more death even if its the more "heroic" thing to do as opposed to letting someone else take the risk. I hope that this leads to some character growth from Michael, and she starts realizing that her tendency to rush in to save everyone, despite the greater consequences, could do more harm then good to the reforming Federation. Michael might not like her Politian ways, but she does seem to get results and seems very genuine about wanting to grow the Federation. I am also curious about her backstory, she's apparently a Bajoran/Cardassian hybrid, she used to be a space trucker along with her dad, there is definitely a story there. 

I was glad to see Saru, his plot on his planet was nice but I am glad they seem to be heading towards him joining the ships again soon, Michael really needs him to be her voice of reason. 

[paigow]

– Dimitri Valtane and Hikaru Sulu, 2293 (Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country)

"I've confirmed the location of Praxis, but..."
"What is it?"
"I cannot confirm the existence of Praxis."

Almost exactly what was said about Kwejian

[Zonk]

I really don't buy that with their medical technology they can't revive anybody who has been dead for less than a minute, als long as their head is still intact, like here with the station commander.

On 11/18/2021 at 8:54 PM, paigow said:

In 1000 years nobody built a new simulation scenario? 

And renamed it? You'd think it would have to be renamed every year, since students would gossip and give away that it's a no win scenario, destroying the intended effect.

[Affogato]

3 hours ago, Zonk said:

 

And renamed it? You'd think it would have to be renamed every year, since students would gossip and give away that it's a no win scenario, destroying the intended effect.

I would guess that you don’t see it coming. One day you go in for a simulation training and …. It is the one tou can’t win. The training itself may have changed, too, to fit current concerns so it wouldn’t necessarily be recognizable. 

Edited November 25, 2021 by Affogato

[Joimiaroxeu]

Grudge says, "You come for the queen, you best not miss. Me-ow, butterfly people." (But after reading the episode discussion on reddit, I now understand that they mistakenly thought Queen Grudge was a Monarch butterfly. I'm slow sometimes. 😏)

Still not feeling "Let's fly."

So what's the difference between "let's fly" and "jump"? Speed?

Inception called and said, "Nice try on that misplaced gravity effect, ST: Discovery."

Poor Book.

I don't know why but Burnham's extreme self-confidence is already starting to grate on this viewer's nerves..

Wild start to season four.

 

[Arynm]

I am pretty sure I heard another homage to Aaron Eisenburg, with a throw away line of an Eisenburg coupler or something along those lines. Along with the Archer space dock and theme, I really enjoyed the little tips to the past that they do.

 

[paulvdb]

5 hours ago, Arynm said:

I am pretty sure I heard another homage to Aaron Eisenburg, with a throw away line of an Eisenburg coupler or something along those lines. Along with the Archer space dock and theme, I really enjoyed the little tips to the past that they do.

 

I think you heard the term Heisenberg Compensator, a part of the transporter system that works around the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle.

[Arynm]

11 hours ago, paulvdb said:

I think you heard the term Heisenberg Compensator, a part of the transporter system that works around the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle.

I think you might be right, silly me. Thanks for clearing that up

[AnimeMania]

Was it just me or did anybody else see a toupee running down the hallway trying to catch up to it's bald owner?

[Tyro49]

I thought it was a giant tribble!! (Then, "naw, it can't be! They're not intelligent!")

[Chit Chat]

On 11/26/2021 at 4:52 PM, Joimiaroxeu said:

Still not feeling "Let's fly."

We just saw Episode 1, so I'm a little bit behind.  I think "let's fly" is too wimpy sounding.  I get it that everything is great now, and it's all peace, love, and harmony, so I think "let's fly" is supposed to represent this feel-good moment for them, but still, it's too weak sounding to me.  

I don't mind saying that Mr. Chat and I liked Archer and that particular franchise of Star Trek.  I was happy to hear his name mentioned.   YMMV.  

[millennium]

Isn't it a bit rude and degrading for Burnham and Booker (sounds like a law firm) to refer to a race of people with animal descriptors?    Seriously.  "Butterfly people?"   What if they had features reminiscent of rats?   Or maggots?   Would it be okay for a Federation captain to be calling them "the rat people?"  Or "the maggot people?"  I don't think so.   Did Kirk refer to Tellarites as "the pig people?"  I'll agree that "butterfly people" sounds more lovely, but the concept is the same.   Even today in our society, it is considered forbidden to make comparisons between races and lower species (and rightly so).   Why does the show think it's okay in the future?   Or maybe such respect only extends to humankind in the Discovery universe and they snicker at the non-humans behind their backs (as Burnham and Booker essentially did).  Everybody on Discovery's so woke with pronouns and such, yet they're thoughtlessly reducing a race of people to bug status.

Speaking of races, I wish we'd see far less of the Kelpians.   Saru annoys me.  I like nothing about him.   This episode sucked (as do most in this series) but it was 10% better without Saru on Discovery.   I get that the Kelpians allow the show to check off the "noble race" box a la the Vulcans, but it all seems so contrived and phony.   I take them about as seriously as the Ferengi, and that's really not saying much.  

Good on the President for calling out Captain Mary Sue.  Of course Michael Burnham is the one with the most experience and therefore the only logical candidate to save everybody's ass yet again.   It couldn't possibly be any other way.

Finally, the Kobayashi Maru reference seemed like a cheap ploy to borrow credibility from earlier, better shows.   Go create your own iconic moments, Discovery.   Oh that's right, you're on the fourth season and haven't yet managed to create a single memorable scene.

Edited February 10, 2022 by millennium

[Captain Stable]

On 12/1/2021 at 8:56 AM, paulvdb said:

I think you heard the term Heisenberg Compensator, a part of the transporter system that works around the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle.

I stupidly thought of Heimlich (as in the Heimlich Manoeuvre) and was wondering what the connection to someone choking was....
I'm full of stupid sometimes! 

[Affogato]

On 2/10/2022 at 4:17 AM, millennium said:

Good on the President for calling out Captain Mary Sue.  Of course Michael Burnham is the one with the most experience and therefore the only logical candidate to save everybody's ass yet again.   It couldn't possibly be any other way.

 

Just randomly thought I would mention that most of the white male captains are just a grain of salt on the pretzel of the fictional universe, where they commony go on all the away teams and solve the problems, or notice and pull together the ideas everyone has to a coherent whole

Edited August 1, 2023 by Affogato

[PurpleTentacle]

On 11/25/2021 at 9:24 PM, Affogato said:

I would guess that you don’t see it coming. One day you go in for a simulation training and …. It is the one tou can’t win. The training itself may have changed, too, to fit current concerns so it wouldn’t necessarily be recognizable. 

But the ship in it is called the Kobayashi Maru. That means once you go in and learn the name of the ship, you know you are in the no-win scenario. Which defeats the purpose. Because the purpose is to see how you'd react when faced with a no-win scenario. But a huge part of that is figuring out it is no-win and accepting that. If you already know for a fact it is no-win, then your course of action is clear.

[Affogato]

10 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

But the ship in it is called the Kobayashi Maru. That means once you go in and learn the name of the ship, you know you are in the no-win scenario. Which defeats the purpose. Because the purpose is to see how you'd react when faced with a no-win scenario. But a huge part of that is figuring out it is no-win and accepting that. If you already know for a fact it is no-win, then your course of action is clear.

That is when you would realize ….