S04.E06: Young Love, Old Love and Take This Job and Shove It

[JenLily]

On 11/4/2021 at 2:04 AM, Tdoc72 said:

I did find it funny they were talking about The Outsiders when Jay was Ponyboy in the (shortlived) tv series. 

I adored this subtle shout-out. I still think of Jay R. Ferguson as Ponyboy. 😍

14 hours ago, HurricaneVal said:

I actually kind of like this push/pull dynamic between Darlene and Ben.  It reminds me of when they were flirting before they got together.  The whole coffee scene was funny, as Darlene advanced and retracted the mismatched mugs.

Their interaction in this scene reminded me of why I actually liked them as a couple. Their sharp banter always appealed to me and it's why I was rooting for them to make it. Still kind of am, to be honest.

13 hours ago, Bastet said:

Across all genders and orientations, the average age of sexual activity is around 16-17, so 14 is increasingly not unusual.  Becky was 15 the first time Roseanne and Jackie talked to her about safe sex and that was many, many moons ago.

When I was a freshman in high school I knew kids who were having sex, and I'm a good couple of decades out from that. I would imagine many of you out there know 14-year-olds who are having sex, you just don't realize it. Fourteen sounds young because it is young but it's not unusual and it hasn't been for a long, long time. Kids have thought they were more mature than they are since. . . well, forever.

[pinkandsparkly13]

I knew some of my teenage relatives were having sex at 12-14.  I'm a little older than them, but we were close so we talked about that. It can definitely be shocking, but it happens. I was even surprised when one of them said they just wanted to be at least 13 before they did it! 

And I didn't have any friends in high school, but I got by. It actually did so suck though, so I can relate to Mark. But I didn't have anyone trying to help me with it. 

[ams1001]

24 minutes ago, TattleTeeny said:

Maybe the town has more than one high school? Does this happen? Mine had two grammar schools but one junior high and one high school, which two more towns attended. Maybe it’s something like that and he kind of got lost in the shuffle of a swarm of different kids? 

My area's school district has six high schools in five towns; when I was in school most kids just went to the one that made the most geographical sense (like, my town has a Boro and a Township and each has a HS; we lived in the Township, and went to Township schools for elementary and middle, but my parents' house is two streets past the Boro line and less than half a mile from the Boro HS so we went there). Now there are several magnet programs (culinary arts, computer science, business administration...looks like there are 12 different programs now) so some students go to a different school than their default if they get into one of those programs. IIRC, Mark is in some kind of magnet program.

7 minutes ago, JenLily said:

When I was a freshman in high school I knew kids who were having sex, and I'm a good couple of decades out from that. I would imagine many of you out there know 14-year-olds who are having sex, you just don't realize it. Fourteen sounds young because it is young but it's not unusual and it hasn't been for a long, long time. Kids have thought they were more mature than they are since. . . well, forever.

Same. We had a pretty decent sex ed program in my high school, but even then I thought senior year was a little late to be getting into the more detailed stuff on safe sex and relationships and all that (we did the basic biology and some about birth control in freshman year, but the rest came later). Fourteen is certainly not too early for kids to be dealing with this stuff (though I'm not sure how well I'd expect this show to handle it).

[Bastet]

51 minutes ago, TattleTeeny said:

Maybe the town has more than one high school?

It did back in Becky and Darlene's day, because when the Little Maggot (Roseanne's teenage boss at the fast food restaurant) came over, he knew Becky looked familiar and asked, "You go to Lanford, right, fifth period lunch?"  So Lanford High wasn't the only high school.

[TattleTeeny]

But did that mean there were more than one high school, or was he asking that just to see if that’s where he recognized her from? Not that it matters, haha—that was kind of a rhetorical question. But if they keep putting episodes out of order, we may learn the reason Mark is having trouble!

Why was that manager guy a dick to her anyway?

Edited November 5, 2021 by TattleTeeny

[One Tough Cookie]

On 11/4/2021 at 3:02 PM, MissLucas said:

ere. I like Ben but it is weird for him to still hang around so much at the Conners house even when taking into account that both Dan and Mark want to remain in contac

Sure beats sleeping at he hardware store at night.  he needs a change of scene.  And I would LOVE Ben to starting a woman who is not a bitter shrew and see how Darlene reacts.

Edited November 6, 2021 by One Tough Cookie

[OhSarah69]

Oh, please don't mature-up Mark so fast!  I have a nephew approaching that age and kept seeing him in my mind's eye during Mark's storyline.  This old cool auntie can't take it, so soon!  Plus Mark is so much taller than that "friend" of his, it weirded me out.  Still love the actor playing Mark though (I'm a sucker for any actor with such clear diction - so many people on screen generally are mush-mouths).  I'm probably most interested in Becky's story overall...I really hope she sticks with college and keeps building her confidence.  I really like Lecy Goranson, yet her way of speaking still drives me a bit crazy...she yells all her lines and sometimes she isn't even directly facing her scene partner - it's weird.  I hated, hated, hated when she slept with that old high school friend...it was so forced and a stupid path for her story.  Loved that she connected with the youngsters in her class...not easy, been there and good on her for doing it.  Yes, Jackie's hair is much improved in this episode.  

[Brn2bwild]

Watching this episode, I was shocked by how much Logan, in his appearance and line readings, reminded me so much of Season 5 Darlene.  Is Mark unknowingly drawn to people like his mother?

[One Tough Cookie]

I would like to further my opinion of Ben being Mark's father figure.:  He needs one.  His own father is an absentee one, and his grandfather is a bitter drunk .  

[brokenwing29]

It was a little uncomfortable seeing a 14 year old consider having sex, though like a lot of people said, I knew kids younger than that who claimed to be sexually active. It isn't surprising to me that 14 year olds would be sure of their sexuality, but that they would be so openly gay and confident enough to casually reveal their preference to a stranger. I'm a few years younger than Darlene, and that *never* would have happened when I was that age, but it's a different world now, more tolerant of people with differences. 

 

[CrystalBlue]

10 hours ago, KayVeeTeeVee said:

Given that Mark and Logan are 'only' 14, I assumed they were going to have a make-out session, not sex.  Mark pretty much admitted he'd not really even kissed someone and Logan seemed to be too confident of his prowess - which to me was a dead giveaway that he, too, was a novice.

 

 Just me?

I thought they were talking about sexual activity and I don't know nor do I care to know what form that would be taking place.  You're probably right about Logan's prowess and experience, though!

[izabella]

Ben told Darlene that Mark confided they had been kissing in his room.  Mark was thinking about going farther, but in the end, didn't.

[chediavolo]

20 hours ago, CrystalBlue said:

He has homeowners insurance, it just didn't cover tornado damage.

Yes. Not uncommon. Insurance companies ( not just home but auto & health, etc) are evil. They will try everything to rake your premiums but then tell you you are not covered for this particular event. Happened to me & my family. Big problem in this country. 

[peacheslatour]

17 hours ago, One Tough Cookie said:

Sure beats sleeping at he hardware store at night.  he needs a change of scene.  And I would LOVE Ben to starting a woman who is not a bitter shrew and see how Darlene reacts.

I wonder if Blue is still around?

[ams1001]

5 hours ago, chediavolo said:

Yes. Not uncommon. Insurance companies ( not just home but auto & health, etc) are evil. They will try everything to rake your premiums but then tell you you are not covered for this particular event. Happened to me & my family. Big problem in this country. 

My homeowner's insurance (which I just renewed) always comes with a page in the packet reminding me that it doesn't cover flooding. I don't live in a flood-prone area and I'm on the second floor, so I don't have the extra. I have a friend whose street has minor floods regularly and she has to pay for the extra coverage (and also had to raise her house, which already had a three-foot-high foundation, after Superstorm Sandy to keep it; that was after gutting the first floor which had five feet of water in it).

Never thought that tornado insurance might be similar.

[Bastet]

Flood insurance in the coastal south, earthquake insurance in California, tornado insurance in tornado alley ... insurance companies are in business to make money, and they do that by taking in more in premiums (and then reinvesting those premiums for additional income) than they pay out in claims.  So they make it difficult and expensive to secure coverage for the natural disaster most likely to cause extensive damage to the property.  And they make it easy for policy holders not to understand the limitations of their coverage.  Many people find themselves in the same position as Dan.

[CrystalBlue]

9 hours ago, chediavolo said:

Yes. Not uncommon. Insurance companies ( not just home but auto & health, etc) are evil. They will try everything to rake your premiums but then tell you you are not covered for this particular event. Happened to me & my family. Big problem in this country. 

You have to actually read your policies and be aware of the riders and what is actually covered.  For instance, in California, earthquake damage is not covered by any insurance policy unless you have separate earthquake insurance.  I suspect it's the same for tornadoes, floods, and other natural disasters in other areas of the country.

[ams1001]

50 minutes ago, CrystalBlue said:

You have to actually read your policies and be aware of the riders and what is actually covered.  For instance, in California, earthquake damage is not covered by any insurance policy unless you have separate earthquake insurance.  I suspect it's the same for tornadoes, floods, and other natural disasters in other areas of the country.

Makes sense, I guess I just never thought about other common events that would require separate policies. Flooding is the big one around here (New Jersey, not far from the coast but far enough that it's not an issue for me; but my friend lives near an inlet so high tide can be iffy). Though there was that neighborhood in south Jersey that was destroyed by a tornado this summer. I wonder if they would be covered, since tornado damage isn't really something you expect here.

5 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

I wonder if Blue is still around?

I forgot about Blue!

[CrystalBlue]

48 minutes ago, ams1001 said:

Makes sense, I guess I just never thought about other common events that would require separate policies. Flooding is the big one around here (New Jersey, not far from the coast but far enough that it's not an issue for me; but my friend lives near an inlet so high tide can be iffy). Though there was that neighborhood in south Jersey that was destroyed by a tornado this summer. I wonder if they would be covered, since tornado damage isn't really something you expect here.

I forgot about Blue!

People need to know what the insurance policies cover before they need to file a claim, as well as be aware of the deductibles.  Nothing prevents anyone to speaking with their insurance agent about what is covered, what ifs, etc.  I hear Jake from State Farm is available if you bribe him with freebies after he gives you a discount.

Apparently so did the show!  Blue is either with or without David, who is somewhere on the planet, or rooming with Odessa, Harris' old roommate.

[izabella]

Who is Blue???

[Bastet]

16 minutes ago, izabella said:

Who is Blue???

David's girlfriend.

[ams1001]

39 minutes ago, izabella said:

Who is Blue???

22 minutes ago, Bastet said:

David's girlfriend.

Played by Juliette Lewis.

[bobalina]

Didn't they break up? Around the time David and Darlene were sleeping together.

[One Tough Cookie]

24 minutes ago, bobalina said:

Didn't they break up? Around the time David and Darlene were sleeping together.

I think he' still the little weasel he always has been and was cheating with Darlene with Blue or Blue with Darlene

[ItsHelloPattiagain]

20 hours ago, izabella said:

Ben told Darlene that Mark confided they had been kissing in his room.  Mark was thinking about going farther, but in the end, didn't.

Mark sounds wistful and almost romantic when he talked about it. Kinda like a 14 year old that wanted what his hormones were telling him, but wanting connection as well.  And "going farther" these days could have just meant "heavy petting" back in the day (oh man I'm dating myself) 

IMHO Mark does need an adult male to confide in.  It would be weird for him to talk to cranky old Dan, and David appears to have lost his way in Trader Joe's so Ben it is.  Darlene should be happy Mark has somebody to talk to. (shades of Karen the bookshop owner back in the day with teenage Darlene). Darlene seems so engrossed in her own problems that she really doesn't appear approachable by her own kids. 

[hoodooznoodooz]

Kids are having sex at the age of 14?!?! 
This upsets me very much.

I know; I’m naive. 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 11/5/2021 at 12:53 AM, Marley said:

Logan showing up was so clunky. Someone sends their kid to live with their friend for at least a month while they are getting divorced? Lol lame. They couldn’t think of something better then that.

An unmarried friend who has no experience taking care of kids.

Edited November 7, 2021 by ItCouldBeWorse

[One Tough Cookie]

On 11/5/2021 at 11:03 AM, txhorns79 said:

hat they dress Mark like a slightly more fashionable version of Mr. Rogers.  

It's official--I just pissed myself.

[love2lovebadtv]

On 11/3/2021 at 9:35 PM, Annber03 said:

Aw, Mark. 

I totally understand him not coming to Darlene with all of this, both for the reasons he and Ben noted and because Darlene's been so focused on all her personal issues lately, to where it's harder for Mark, or anyone else, to feel like she's really in the right headspace to be there for them and talk with her. In fact, I'd say part of, if not the big reason, she's so pushy about this whole thing with Mark making a friend is because trying to meddle in others' affairs is a good distraction from her having to focus on her own.

That, and there's also the fact that Mark's a guy, and thus, he might feel a little more comfortable talking to another guy. And Ben did quite well in talking with him about everything. 

I'm glad that Mark ultimately decided to take things slow with Logan in the end. I hope they are able to stay in touch, it'd be nice to see where things go with them. Or, maybe Logan will ultimately be able to stay in Lanford, which could solve their problem right there, too. Either way, I'm interested to see what comes of that storyline :).

Also glad to see Becky thriving so much in school as she is, though I can also see where it's causing issues for her at work. Hopefully her suggestion of going part-time to help balance things better can work for her. 

Loved Dan's "reading the fine print" bit at the beginning, as well as his response when he came into the kitchen when Darlene and Ben were in there and asked what was wrong :D. 

I feel like Darlene is always focused on her personal issues. I would be annoyed that Ben is there if he didn't seem to handle talking to Mark so well. With a house full of adults, there's still no one he can really talk to. And +1 being glad Mark decided to take things slow. He's a smart kid but he's still a kid trying to figure things out. 

Happy to see Becky back in her element and I'd be thrilled to see her find a career path she loves. I think I remember her wanting to be a doctor and there was nothing wrong with that but like so many high school students, things didn't work out and it didn't seem like she had explored any other career paths. 

On 11/4/2021 at 12:31 AM, Starchild said:

This episode felt messy to me.

After that first phone call, all of Becky's interactions with her college project team were commented on after the fact. We didn't see them interacting at all.

And I think between that first scene with Mark meeting Logan for the first time at the diner, and the next watching Casablanca, a whole month had gone by, because suddenly they were messing around and Mark was in love and thinking about having sex to keep Logan invested in a long distance relationship.

I can tell you that I'm certainly not invested, having missed everything that would have gone on between them to build up to that kind of feeling.

Virtually everything significant happened off screen. It was a master class in tell, don't show.

Yes, there was a lot missing. I feel like a lot of Darlene's love life gets more airtime than anything and it's the least interesting. All 3 of the kids actually have some interesting stories that disappear after an episode. 

On 11/4/2021 at 3:02 PM, MissLucas said:

When Darlene barked at Ben: 'Why are you still here?' I couldn't resist and mumble 'Because his name is still in the opening credits.' The writers are really failing the characters here. I like Ben but it is weird for him to still hang around so much at the Conners house even when taking into account that both Dan and Mark want to remain in contact. The whole marriage-proposal plot was a trainwreck that's still causing problems.

I wasn't happy that Ben would still be in the show but he didn't get on my nerves this episode because it seemed like Mark wanted him there and they were good together. 

On 11/4/2021 at 3:42 PM, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Even with that side gig advising young HS dropouts, Becky will undoubtedly be making a lot less money working part-time at the sports bar, yet she doesn't seem concerned about this.  So no rent from Harris, and less rent from Becky?  (Although realistically, with a good management job and she and Mark occupying 2 of the 3 original bedrooms, Darlene should be paying the bulk of the mortgage and house expenses.)

I feel like Becky would qualify for different types of assistance like SNAP and Medicaid. And I doubt she'd be paying for community college. She's old enough to only provide her own income and show that she has a dependent. 

On 11/5/2021 at 1:53 AM, Yeah No said:

Does he still have a mortgage on the house?  Because usually mortgage lenders require at least some homeowner's insurance.

Dan still has at least 1 mortgage so he should definitely have homeowner's insurance. He made a joke about the fine print not covering something. Which isn't really funny at this point. I feel like thinks they have to struggle this much in order to capture the essence of the show. And I know it's a sitcom but it's not realistic and it feels like a bummer. There were still lots of jokes they could have made about a working class honeymoon.

On 11/5/2021 at 2:49 AM, Bastet said:

I don't remember anyone batting an eye at Becky (or Darlene, but Becky dated more) knowing she was straight at 14, and I similarly don't have any objection to Mark and Logan knowing their sexual orientation at this age.  In fact, LGBT teens, even though having to recognize and accept they're different than what is treated as the norm unlike straight teens who don't have to confront their feelings the same way, have an average age of awareness right around fourteen.

Across all genders and orientations, the average age of sexual activity is around 16-17, so 14 is increasingly not unusual.  Becky was 15 the first time Roseanne and Jackie talked to her about safe sex and that was many, many moons ago.

It still feels young to me, but it's not totally out there.  The issue of contemplating having sex - at any age, let alone that young - in order to hold onto someone deserved more attention than it got, though.  The franchise did much better with Becky, Darlene, and Harris, who were ready, and D.J., who wasn't, than they did with Mark's first time seriously considering it.

I agree that I have never heard that it's convenient or contrived for a 14-year old to know their sexual orientation. Lots of kids have crushes and boyfriends/girlfriends (even if they're not technically allowed to) at that age. They are young for sex but it does happen and thinking about it/planning to do it is not uncommon for kids that age. 

[sugarbaker design]

On 11/5/2021 at 2:49 AM, Bastet said:

I don't remember anyone batting an eye at Becky (or Darlene, but Becky dated more) knowing she was straight at 14, and I similarly don't have any objection to Mark and Logan knowing their sexual orientation at this age. 

Hear, hear!

It's as if people can't remember they had sexual feelings at 14, and definitely knew what they were attracted to.  A dear gay friend of mine would always counter the inevitable question "When did you know you were gay?" with "When did you know you were straight?"

[CrystalBlue]

We already know that Mark is gay.  He came out to his family and the audience accepts that as who he is.  I'm sure he had his feelings evident to himself, acknowledged and accepted long before the age of 14.  I always knew I was straight but I didn't embark on talking to my parents or other adults about whether I wanted to have sex with a boy when I was 14.  The storyline is that Mark is or was contemplating a relationship with another kid his age.  It's the relationship and actual sexual activity that has some people feeling it's too young to act upon now.  Darlene said it best when she told her son he is not ready for that emotionally and physically.

[peacheslatour]

8 hours ago, sugarbaker design said:

Hear, hear!

It's as if people can't remember they had sexual feelings at 14, and definitely knew what they were attracted to.  A dear gay friend of mine would always counter the inevitable question "When did you know you were gay?" with "When did you know you were straight?"

I knew I was straight when my parents took me to see The Great Escape when I was seven. Steve McQueen? Yes, please.

[Yeah No]

On 11/6/2021 at 12:33 AM, izabella said:

Ben told Darlene that Mark confided they had been kissing in his room.  Mark was thinking about going farther, but in the end, didn't.

That's how I remembered it.  I don't think Mark would have been in such a quandary if Logan wasn't looking to go to at least what we used to call "third base".

On 11/7/2021 at 12:21 AM, hoodooznoodooz said:

Kids are having sex at the age of 14?!?! 
This upsets me very much.

I know; I’m naive. 

I'm not naive but it upsets me too.  And I wasn't exactly old when I went that far either, but there's a world of difference in maturity in only a few years.

On 11/9/2021 at 9:30 PM, peacheslatour said:

I knew I was straight when my parents took me to see The Great Escape when I was seven. Steve McQueen? Yes, please.

Haha, for me it was Patrick McGoohan in Secret Agent when I was 6 in 1964.  Although Steve McQueen would have done it too, LOL.

[CrystalBlue]

Thankfully, as of this episode, Mark has been only kissing or making out and wisely decided not to pursue further activity at this time.  Now Logan is leaving, so the point will soon be moot, until Mark finds another potential boyfriend.

I was a late bloomer at the age of 8:  My heart belonged to The Beatles.

[peacheslatour]

5 hours ago, CrystalBlue said:

Thankfully, as of this episode, Mark has been only kissing or making out and wisely decided not to pursue further activity at this time.  Now Logan is leaving, so the point will soon be moot, until Mark finds another potential boyfriend.

I was a late bloomer at the age of 8:  My heart belonged to The Beatles.

The very first thing I ever bought with my own money was a Beatles 45. I know Twist and Shout was on the B side but I don't remember what the other song was. I was seven and I had to pull weeds.

[bobalina]

2 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

The very first thing I ever bought with my own money was a Beatles 45. I know Twist and Shout was on the B side but I don't remember what the other song was. I was seven and I had to pull weeds.

It was Twist and Shout and I Know a Place.

[peacheslatour]

14 hours ago, bobalina said:

It was Twist and Shout and I Know a Place.

No wonder I didn't remember it, lol.

[ChicksDigScars]

Jackie trying to get Becky to prioritize her dumpy dead end "sports bar" over actually bettering herself by getting the education that she should have gotten long ago? Do fuck ALL the way off, Jax.  I can't with Jackie or Darlene. I hate them both with the white hot intensity of 1000 nuns. I'm watching for Dan, Louise and Becky. 

[Lorna Mae]

On 11/12/2021 at 1:41 PM, peacheslatour said:

No wonder I didn't remember it, lol.

Nitpick: There’s a Place. I inherited that 45 and many others from my older sister. And I remember a friend looking at the B side, which takes up only about half the disk, and saying, “Damn, that’s a short song!”