S05.E10: And the Violence Spread.

[Cranberry]

Quote

It's too many courts and too little time for the folks at Reddick/Lockhart. Marissa is mounting a strong defense in Vinetta's court for Matteo, while Diane attempts to get an interview with him in order to spring Matteo from court. Carmen, Liz, and Allegra defend drug dealer, Oscar Rivi, as prosecutors attempt to put him back in prison.

Original air date: August 26, 2021

[TimWil]

This was, in my opinion, the weakest of all the seasons so far. The Rivi character was awful (at least the actor was good and we were spared having someone like Luis Guzman playing it). Jay’s hallucinations slowed down every episode they appeared in and added nothing to the story. At least Diane’s “conversations” with RBG moved the story forward (Diane’s championing of Allegra). Diane and Kurt just need to call it a day, already. Mandy Patinkin was great but the phony court was another high concept of the Kings (like Memo 618 last season) that was doomed to lead nowhere. And, of course, Delroy Lindo and Cush Jumbo no longer being there has also been a factor. On the plus side there was way more Marissa. And that’s about it as far as I’m concerned.

[Netfoot]

Ok, so the moment I heard the guitar strum at about 0:01, I just knew it would be some sort of Wackner bullshit, but... in the spirit of giving this show a chance, I ignored all the Wackner stuff in the previouslies.

So, in this episode I was able to get all the way to 3:58 before we were back in Wackner's crapola 'court'.

Stopped at 4:03, episode deleted from disk.

If series six still has this stupid plot-line in it, I won't be watching. And I won't be checking to see if it does or it doesn't. It's only if a friend contacts me and tells me explicitly that there is no more Wackner, that I will even consider viewing. Which I consider unlilkely, so:

Buh-bye, folks!

[txhorns79]

The Wackner storyline ended(?) as expected, with chaos and a lot of stupidity. 

I felt like this season had a lot of missed opportunities, and ultimately had very little to say.  I thought the most interesting storyline was Diane's role at Lockhart Reddick, and what it meant to have a white named partner at what had been a majority black firm.  There were no easy answers, a lot of tension and a lot of machinations.  

Carmen was a big missed opportunity.  All that focus on her in the first few episodes, only to really do nothing with the character except have her stage manage Revi.  Maybe next season will be stronger.

 

[skotnikov]

From the brilliance of the first season to this barely watchable mess? Well, that was it for me. 

 

[stonehaven]

Yeah, they had some interesting points at the beginning  of the series and the blow up of Wackner's court could have been written ages ago. I still love Kurt and Diane but am still trying to figure out what led the police to the CCH Pounder's house.

I did find myself yelling at the TV a lot but again, Kurt and Diane saved it for me.

I'll watch next season only because I need Christine Baranski on my TV.....

[bobbyjoe]

Quote

Carmen was a big missed opportunity.  All that focus on her in the first few episodes, only to really do nothing with the character except have her stage manage Revi.  Maybe next season will be stronger.

I feel like I know next-to-nothing about Carmen which is really damning about the direction this show has taken in recent seasons.   The Good Wife/early Good Fight would have been all over making her a compelling character throughout the season— instead, we got lots of a pointless fantasyland where people just make their own courts and nothing vaguely realistic happens.

And, really, show, you’re going to end on a dumb montage that literally juxtaposes torch carrying white supremacists with people portrayed as picky about pronouns like this is at all comparable?  That’s the worst kind of stupid bothsiderism and another symptom of how the show went from giving us genuinely thoughtful, complicated and nuanced court cases to this kind of lazy nonsense.

Kurt and Diane were charming, and if we join the showrunners in ignoring everything that happened between them all the rest of the season to get here, their scenes were the most enjoyable part of the episode.

Here’s a short list of some of the storylines that dead-ended or basically went nowhere this season: Wackner’s court,  Jay’s visions, Carmen having any real details or backstory, the conflicts we saw between Kurt and Diane, pretty much anything having to do with ST Laurie, Marissa actually becoming a real rather than a pretend lawyer, etc.  Lately this show feels like it’s being written by people with the attention span of a gnat.

Edited August 27, 2021 by bobbyjoe

[Roseanna]

10 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I felt like this season had a lot of missed opportunities, and ultimately had very little to say.  I thought the most interesting storyline was Diane's role at Lockhart Reddick, and what it meant to have a white named partner at what had been a majority black firm.  There were no easy answers, a lot of tension and a lot of machinations. 

I agree that there was no easy answers. Diane understood that she can't lead if the others doesn't follow her. It was the case when it's right to give up because what's good for you as an individual, isn't good for your community at large and when the community suffers, ultimately you suffer too. Instead, those men who wanted to divide the state continued to believe that their own group was "the people".

Fortunately, Diane didn't actually loose what's the most important thing to her because she also understood that she is happiest when she has to strive against the odds and begin anew once again. BTV, wasn't that the same reason why Boseman left the firm for Alabama? 

[ifionlyknew]

8 hours ago, stonehaven said:

but am still trying to figure out what led the police to the CCH Pounder's house.

One of the policemen said the not a Koch brother alerted them. Said CCH Pounder was stealing intellectual property by having a court similar to Judge Wackner's court.   Earlier CCH Pounder's character told Diane Wackner stole her idea.  I think the writers were showing us how many things are routinely taken from African Americans without them receiving credit.

So Kurt and Diane are going hunting with ST Laurie.  Perhaps Diane will come back with a new position.  David Lee's maybe.

[ferjy]

Agree that Carmen was a disappointment. If she was brought in to replace Lucca, the actress’s acting skills are nowhere near the calibre of Cush Jumbo’s.

 

[txhorns79]

1 hour ago, ifionlyknew said:

One of the policemen said the not a Koch brother alerted them. Said CCH Pounder was stealing intellectual property by having a court similar to Judge Wackner's court.   Earlier CCH Pounder's character told Diane Wackner stole her idea.  I think the writers were showing us how many things are routinely taken from African Americans without them receiving credit.

It was a little nutty that the thing that got police there was an IP issue and not the fact that she was holding people in her basement as prisoners of her "court." 

[ferjy]

9 hours ago, stonehaven said:

Kurt and Diane saved it for me.

 

8 hours ago, bobbyjoe said:

Kurt and Diane were charming, and if we join the showrunners in ignoring everything that happened between them all the rest of the season to get here, their scenes were the most enjoyable part of the episode.

I love Kurt and Diane. I’m glad they haven’t broken them up. I like that they’re not a perfect couple but they make it work. It’s always a highlight for me when they’re in the show together. 

[ifionlyknew]

8 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

It was a little nutty that the thing that got police there was an IP issue and not the fact that she was holding people in her basement as prisoners of her "court." 

I thought so too.  But when they showed Pounder's character being frisked up against the wall and Diane's look when he said it made me realize that was the writer's way of saying African Americans are having their ideas stolen.  

6 minutes ago, ferjy said:

 

I love Kurt and Diane. I’m glad they haven’t broken them up. I like that they’re not a perfect couple but they make it work. It’s always a highlight for me when they’re in the show together. 

I was never a Kurt fan because his beliefs are the polar opposite of mine (and Diane's) but his love for Diane has won me over.  Her singing I Touch Myself was awesome.

[stonehaven]

One other thing, when Marissa and Wackner were barracaded in the room, she talked about her father and used past tense once. Are we to infer that Eli Gold is dead? When did that happen?

[TimWil]

What was with Carmen’s yelling something about being a black woman when she was told to “shut up” in court? What the f**k did that have to do with it? And before that she tenderly rested her head against a drug dealer/murderer’s head and said “I’m so sorry”? That alone should get her fired from the firm. I hope she’s a one and done character on this show. Carmen was a profound dud as a “replacement” for the stellar Cush Jumbo.

And gee, where was Wayne Brady in this episode? I think maybe the Kings finally had to admit they cast a total lightweight opposite Audra McDonald so decided he wasn’t going to be stinking up their season finale. I’ll never forget how his “oh, baby” sex talk intro in the season premiere made me want to throw something at my TV.

[stonehaven]

Wayne Brady is a talent to be sure. I used to love him on Whose Line. Yet, his actual acting is not great. His ego has turned him into a smarmy, sleazy persona that he would have mocked in the early days of Whose Line. 

[TVbitch]

Really? Diane allows herself to be locked up in someone's basement? Not bloody likely. 

I only watched this year cuz Michael Sheen was gone and I thought I'd give it another shot. I love Mandy Patinkin, but that whole thing was way too nuts. Not sure if I even get their big point. Maybe that if everyone thinks they can be the law, then there is no law or something like that?  

[Milburn Stone]

4 hours ago, TVbitch said:

Not sure if I even get their big point. Maybe that if everyone thinks they can be the law, then there is no law or something like that?  

I think it's that once we start splitting apart, there'll be no end to the splitting.

Unfortunately, that's also a totally obvious point that doesn't require a TV episode to make, let alone a TV season. 

[Medicine Crow]

20 hours ago, stonehaven said:

Wayne Brady is a talent to be sure. I used to love him on Whose Line. Yet, his actual acting is not great. His ego has turned him into a smarmy, sleazy persona that he would have mocked in the early days of Whose Line. 

When he's in a scene, I just can't get past the fact that it's HIM.  Not a good actor .. sleazy is an apt description!!

[Quark]

This season was bizarre to say the least, but I did enjoy it for what it was. It was certainly better than last season.

The acting is what I love most about this show. And this season, as well as Christine Baranski and Audra McDonald, we had Mandy Patinkin who is absolutely class.

I also adored the focus on Marissa.

[Milburn Stone]

I think my main problem with the second half of the season was that it was way more unpleasant than it had to be. As bad as 1/6 was, those perpetrators are being apprehended and held accountable--by our legitimate judicial system, of all things! I get the "cautionary tale" message, but by going so overboard with it, they made the audience feel bad for no good purpose.

[Joimiaroxeu]

Man, I was almost having an anxiety attack before the opening credits!

Lol, Kurt saved Diane's firm by getting drunk with those STR Laurie guys. But I thought people from the UAE weren't supposed to drink.

And there it is. The billionaire was only using Wackner as a puppet judge. If Wackner doesn't do what he wants he gets himself a new Wackner who'll be more compliant. I was surprised he admitted it.

Holy crap, that court scene between Rivi and his wife was intense. Emmys for both of them.

Okay, Diane saw the light about her supposed racial privilege and agreed to step down as a named partner. Seemed too easy to me. She basically got shamed by CCH Pounder's character because she's rich enough to wear designer shoes and take vacations in Lake Como. Liz also wears designer shoes and could afford to vacation in Italy if she wanted to. No reason for Diane to feel she has undue entitlement IMO.

Yep, what's to stop everyone from making their own courts and enforcing their own laws against other people who haven't consented to it? It would be complete anarchy. And Cord just shrugged and walked away like, "Not my problem anymore." He threw gasoline on the idea of a community court operating outside of the legal justice system and then got surprised when the fire eventually got out of control.

I liked this season though at times it was extremely difficult to watch. Again, I think the producers have been largely preaching to choir but the point was made: all this could happen if people let it and didn't act on the warning signs quickly and strongly enough. Still, maybe the Kings should develop a science fiction series if they want to delve into the development of a dystopia in the US.

Quote

What was with Carmen’s yelling something about being a black woman when she was told to “shut up” in court? What the f**k did that have to do with it?

From where she was standing the prosecutor was exercising his White Male Privilege in a way that he might not have if she weren't being an Uppity Black Woman. It was a heat of the moment reaction to his behavior.

[Ms Blue Jay]

On 8/27/2021 at 10:00 AM, ferjy said:

Agree that Carmen was a disappointment. If she was brought in to replace Lucca, the actress’s acting skills are nowhere near the calibre of Cush Jumbo’s.

Wow, I feel the complete opposite.  I thought the actor that played Carmen was fantastic.

[ferjy]

4 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Wow, I feel the complete opposite.  I thought the actor that played Carmen was fantastic.

Of course we all have our own perceptions. 🙂 To me, I could see her “acting”. 

 

[gesundheit]

On 8/27/2021 at 2:16 PM, TimWil said:

What was with Carmen’s yelling something about being a black woman when she was told to “shut up” in court? What the f**k did that have to do with it? 

It was a courtroom strategy, it wasn't sincere. A distraction so Rivi could silently communicate with his wife. I thought it was pretty funny in a sea of tedium.

2 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Wow, I feel the complete opposite.  I thought the actor that played Carmen was fantastic.

Agreed. I don't think they gave her very good material, but she showed a lot of potential and I'd like to see more.

[cardigirl]

On 8/28/2021 at 6:50 PM, Joimiaroxeu said:

I liked this season though at times it was extremely difficult to watch. Again, I think the producers have been largely preaching to choir but the point was made: all this could happen if people let it and didn't act on the warning signs quickly and strongly enough. Still, maybe the Kings should develop a science fiction series if they want to delve into the development of a dystopia in the US.

They did, it was called BrainDead and it was perfection, but it came on in the summer of 2016, and people wanted a Good Wife replica, and didn't watch it. I LOVED IT!  Aliens controlling both sides of the senate in Washington?  As political satire and science fiction, it was a masterpiece. 

[akr]

3 hours ago, cardigirl said:

They did, it was called BrainDead and it was perfection, but it came on in the summer of 2016, and people wanted a Good Wife replica, and didn't watch it. I LOVED IT!  Aliens controlling both sides of the senate in Washington?  As political satire and science fiction, it was a masterpiece. 

I agree - it was great! It's also on Paramount+ so if you've paid for that to watch The Good Fight and still have some time on your subscription, you might enjoy it as a binge watch.  

[Joimiaroxeu]

Quote

They did, it was called BrainDead and it was perfection, but it came on in the summer of 2016, and people wanted a Good Wife replica, and didn't watch it. I LOVED IT!  Aliens controlling both sides of the senate in Washington?  As political satire and science fiction, it was a masterpiece. 

Oh yes, it was great and I remember being so mad that it had such a short run. It was very satirical though and I'm thinking the Kings might want do a mostly serious take on political/dystopian science fiction but perhaps that isn't their thing.

[love2lovebadtv]

On 8/27/2021 at 1:02 AM, bobbyjoe said:

I feel like I know next-to-nothing about Carmen which is really damning about the direction this show has taken in recent seasons.   The Good Wife/early Good Fight would have been all over making her a compelling character throughout the season— instead, we got lots of a pointless fantasyland where people just make their own courts and nothing vaguely realistic happens.

And, really, show, you’re going to end on a dumb montage that literally juxtaposes torch carrying white supremacists with people portrayed as picky about pronouns like this is at all comparable?  That’s the worst kind of stupid bothsiderism and another symptom of how the show went from giving us genuinely thoughtful, complicated and nuanced court cases to this kind of lazy nonsense.

Kurt and Diane were charming, and if we join the showrunners in ignoring everything that happened between them all the rest of the season to get here, their scenes were the most enjoyable part of the episode.

Here’s a short list of some of the storylines that dead-ended or basically went nowhere this season: Wackner’s court,  Jay’s visions, Carmen having any real details or backstory, the conflicts we saw between Kurt and Diane, pretty much anything having to do with ST Laurie, Marissa actually becoming a real rather than a pretend lawyer, etc.  Lately this show feels like it’s being written by people with the attention span of a gnat.

I would have loved to know more about Carmen. She didn't look or act like someone right out of law school. I wondered if she had another career first. We got to see a glimpse of her tiny apartment and that was it. 

Also wondered about Marissa's path to becoming a lawyer. Who is supposedly supervising her if she spends so much time at the fake court? Carmen was right about that but she doesn't have a relationship with Marissa like Maia and Lucca did so it felt more like an insult than advice or a warning from a friend.

On 8/27/2021 at 8:41 AM, ifionlyknew said:

One of the policemen said the not a Koch brother alerted them. Said CCH Pounder was stealing intellectual property by having a court similar to Judge Wackner's court.   Earlier CCH Pounder's character told Diane Wackner stole her idea.  I think the writers were showing us how many things are routinely taken from African Americans without them receiving credit.

Setting aside how unrealistic these courts are, Vinetta seemed sincere about keeping her neighborhood safe and had a valid reason for starting the court, so I think she was telling the truth about Wackner using her courtroom idea. I wanted to see more of Vinetta's side of the story. Intellectual property is not usually a police matter but it could have made an interesting case for the firm to work on - especially since they like to think of themselves as a Black firm, yet Wackner is their client and not the Black woman who seems to just want justice for lives lost and for her community. Missed opportunity, in my opinion. 

On 8/27/2021 at 2:15 PM, stonehaven said:

One other thing, when Marissa and Wackner were barracaded in the room, she talked about her father and used past tense once. Are we to infer that Eli Gold is dead? When did that happen?

 

On 8/27/2021 at 4:11 PM, stonehaven said:

Wayne Brady is a talent to be sure. I used to love him on Whose Line. Yet, his actual acting is not great. His ego has turned him into a smarmy, sleazy persona that he would have mocked in the early days of Whose Line. 

 

[Milburn Stone]

On 8/27/2021 at 9:54 PM, Milburn Stone said:

I think [the point of the second half of the season] that once we start splitting apart, there'll be no end to the splitting.

Unfortunately, that's also a totally obvious point that doesn't require a TV episode to make, let alone a TV season. 

I'm reconsidering this, a little. I still thoroughly not-enjoyed the second half of the season. But maybe the point was a little different than I thought it was. It was not a warning, not a cautionary tale. It was saying, guys, forget about it, it's already too late.

I'm in a class that studies the Hebrew Prophets. They basically fall into two categories. Some of them say, "if you don't change your ways, you'll be destroyed." But some of them say, "welp, you didn't change your ways, you're going to be destroyed, and there's not a thing you can do to stop it now." I think the Kings are in the second category of prophet.

Why that might be useful is, there are plenty of folks (including me) who go around thinking, "We've really got to get over our divisions as a country, when are we going to realize we're one country and go back to the values we have in common, yada yada yada." We're kind of like the first category of prophet. The Kings are showing us, through dramatization, their conviction that it's already too late. They're the second kind of prophet.

[love2lovebadtv]

On 8/28/2021 at 6:50 PM, Joimiaroxeu said:

Man, I was almost having an anxiety attack before the opening credits!

Lol, Kurt saved Diane's firm by getting drunk with those STR Laurie guys. But I thought people from the UAE weren't supposed to drink.

And there it is. The billionaire was only using Wackner as a puppet judge. If Wackner doesn't do what he wants he gets himself a new Wackner who'll be more compliant. I was surprised he admitted it.

Holy crap, that court scene between Rivi and his wife was intense. Emmys for both of them.

Okay, Diane saw the light about her supposed racial privilege and agreed to step down as a named partner. Seemed too easy to me. She basically got shamed by CCH Pounder's character because she's rich enough to wear designer shoes and take vacations in Lake Como. Liz also wears designer shoes and could afford to vacation in Italy if she wanted to. No reason for Diane to feel she has undue entitlement IMO.

From where she was standing the prosecutor was exercising his White Male Privilege in a way that he might not have if she weren't being an Uppity Black Woman. It was a heat of the moment reaction to his behavior.

I'm going to have to rewatch the interaction between Diane and Vinetta again because Vinetta shaming Vinetta for anything except telling Mateo to lie and not recognizing the legitimacy of her court. But this is the second comment I've seen about her shaming Diane. I must have missed something. I can't see Diane basing her partnership decision on someone's comments about her shoes or vacation. Especially when she walked past the woman as the police held her up against the wall.

I honestly would have preferred that Diane keep the name partnership and bring on another name partner. 

Originally, I thought Carmen's response was a legal tactic, as it seemed out of character for the Carmen we've seen so far.  But you bring up a point that perhaps it was simply a heat of the moment reaction.

On 8/28/2021 at 1:04 PM, Medicine Crow said:

When he's in a scene, I just can't get past the fact that it's HIM.  Not a good actor .. sleazy is an apt description!!

I think Wayne Brady is incredibly talented who looks and acts cheesy. It works in some roles. BUT his character didn't have any chemistry with Liz and I didn't buy them being together. 

On 8/27/2021 at 2:15 PM, stonehaven said:

One other thing, when Marissa and Wackner were barracaded in the room, she talked about her father and used past tense once. Are we to infer that Eli Gold is dead? When did that happen?

I hope not. I'm still hoping for a guest appearance. 

[Joimiaroxeu]

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I can't see Diane basing her partnership decision on someone's comments about her shoes or vacation

I don't think it was the total basis for her decision but I think it triggered her realizing how some Black people might view things about her and her life that she didn't think were a big deal. And they weren't necessarily a big deal or due to her being White but she was momentarily made to feel guilty about them anyway. Seeing Vinetta getting arrested under iffy circumstances just added to it. I saw Diane's decision to step down as coming from that guilt. The difference was it was brought about by someone less socioeconomically advantaged than she, unlike Liz or the other lawyers at the firm.

I definitely saw Vinetta's comments to Diane as lowkey shaming, because I recognized the behavior from personal experience. Church ladies of a certain age and tradition are particularly good at it.

Quote

Originally, I thought Carmen's response was a legal tactic, as it seemed out of character for the Carmen we've seen so far.  But you bring up a point that perhaps it was simply a heat of the moment reaction.

Maybe it was a bit of both.

[TimWil]

I received a highly detailed survey from Paramount + earlier this week asking me many questions about The Good Fight. Any of you get it? I thought maybe they checked in here-my screen name is similar to my email address.

Anyway I was more than happy to express my displeasure with this season, particularly Wackner’s court, Rivi, Jay’s hallucinations, Carmen and Kurt/Diane.

It would seem Paramount +/CBS are well aware that Season 5 was a f**k-up.

[Roseanna]

On 9/3/2021 at 9:32 PM, love2lovebadtv said:

I'm going to have to rewatch the interaction between Diane and Vinetta again because Vinetta shaming Vinetta for anything except telling Mateo to lie and not recognizing the legitimacy of her court. But this is the second comment I've seen about her shaming Diane. I must have missed something. I can't see Diane basing her partnership decision on someone's comments about her shoes or vacation. Especially when she walked past the woman as the police held her up against the wall.

I don't think it was that at all. Instead, as Diane said, you can't lead if the others don't follow you. Plus, she likes best in struggling to reach the top. That is, being on the top doesn't feel as good to her.

Her options were: either leave the firm and become the name partner in another firm or stay in the firm but give up the name partnership and try to win the confidence  - or to help younger women to become good layers and get successful career (in some point your own success isn't the most import thing).

[Medicine Crow]

So, is the show finished???

 

[Cranberry]

2 hours ago, Medicine Crow said:

So, is the show finished???

 

Nope.

[Haleth]

I’ve finally finished catching up with this show. While I enjoy it mostly, I hope next season doesn’t have a wacky character like those played by Michael Sheen and Mandy P. Both were over the top (no fault with the superb actors). I hope next season is more realistic.

Also unbelievable?  That Melissa would have time to play attorney in Wacker’s court. In addition to her real job, when does she study?  As the mom of a law student I could see there is hardly any free time for one job let alone two. And my student was told if he gave anyone legal advice while in school he’d be in big trouble. 

[SomeTameGazelle]

On 10/25/2021 at 5:28 PM, Haleth said:

Also unbelievable?  That Melissa would have time to play attorney in Wacker’s court. In addition to her real job, when does she study?  As the mom of a law student I could see there is hardly any free time for one job let alone two. And my student was told if he gave anyone legal advice while in school he’d be in big trouble. 

Wasn't Marissa somehow supposed to be stuck with the Wackner court duty because Wackner or at least the guy bankrolling him were demanding her time and threatening to take their business elsewhere? Similar to how Carmen got her high profile client.