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S19.E20: Quentin Tarantino; Max Brooks; Dan Carlin

PrincessPurrsALot
PrincessPurrsALot
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As always, stick to the topics discussed.  No personal politics. 

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letter8358

letter8358

(edited)

I still feel Max Brooks is a combination of both his father Mel and his late mother Anne Bancroft. I swear, he inherited their humor gene. Oh, my God! Bill Maher looked like Ed Sheeran in that high school photo.

Edited by letter8358
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arachne

arachne

"Top of [your] game," Bill? That's up for dispute!

Why do I have the feeling Bill brought Quentin Tarantino on because Tarantino lives in Tel Aviv now, and can gush about how great the place is (except when it's being bombed by bad terrorists)? 

Bill had a decent point with his final New Rule -- there probably is more frequent alcohol consumption these days, brought on by our general isolation (whether self-enforced or not.) But I waited for him to make some suggestion about a solution, and he never did.

Ah well, I'm glad the show is on break now. I'm as exhausted with it as Bill must be. 

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izabella

izabella

(edited)
1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

Nobody is running on a "defund the police" platform. Criminy. I'm so disappointed in Max Brooks. I've come to expect this sort of idiocy from Bill but apparently Max doesn't pay much attention to politics either, except for the blurbs he sees on Twitter and Facebook. "Defund the police" Is something you see on picket signs at protests. It is not something anyone - ever - has run on as a campaign slogan, despite what this panel seemed to think. It's another stupid reason to say "this is why people hate Democrats" and it isn't even true. It's what you hear about Democrats on Fox News and  OAN. 

I'm so sick of Bill actually repeating right wing talking points. If he's this ill-informed he has no business even discussing these issues. 

Max even kicked off that discussion with a lie about "people who want to abolish prisons."  What people?  No people want to abolish prisons.  Maybe they want to abolish prison abuses, like no a/c in Arizona prisons in 100+ degree heat, which John Oliver highlighted recently. 

Max then called Bernie Sanders a "Jewish Communist" who is anti-Israel.  I guess that's why Bill agreed with everything Max said.

Edited by izabella
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RealHousewife

RealHousewife

I almost feel like I'm watching Fox with some of the stuff Bill and his guests have been saying. That's not a compliment. I don't care about being politically correct or what their politics are, but seriously, stick with the facts. 

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DoctorAtomic

DoctorAtomic

2 hours ago, arachne said:

Bill had a decent point with his final New Rule -- there probably is more frequent alcohol consumption these days, brought on by our general isolation (whether self-enforced or not.) But I waited for him to make some suggestion about a solution, and he never did.

I think his point was basically, cut back. Don't drink at 2 pm. I think if people went back to work, it would likely go down. However, on the show they were talking about people working from home more. I don't know how that's going to work then. 

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deirdra

deirdra

(edited)
1 hour ago, izabella said:

Max even kicked off that discussion with a lie about "people who want to abolish prisons."  What people?  No people want to abolish prisons.  Maybe they want to abolish prison abuses, like no a/c in Arizona prisons in 100+ degree heat, which John Oliver highlighted recently. 

Max then called Bernie Sanders a "Jewish Communist" who is anti-Israel.  I guess that's why Bill agreed with everything Max said.

Actually there are are people who want to defund the police and abolish prisons.  They tend to be idealistic university students who think we should all just love each other and sing kumbaya.  Trevor Noah interviewed some of them last summer; at first he assumed that they knew slogans were meant to be catcy, not literal plans, but they didn't. He was shocked. I was not shocked because some of my nephew's college friends are on the same page.

Edited by deirdra
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deirdra

deirdra

(edited)
15 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I think his point was basically, cut back. Don't drink at 2 pm. I think if people went back to work, it would likely go down. However, on the show they were talking about people working from home more. I don't know how that's going to work then. 

I can easily imagine Bill lighting up a joint first thing in the morning.  When he was "working from home", wearing a suit in his back yard, he sounded very stuffed up, as if he had been partaking all day long. He probably thinks it improves his humour.

Edited by deirdra
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BrownBear2012

BrownBear2012

2 hours ago, arachne said:

"Top of [your] game," Bill? That's up for dispute!

Why do I have the feeling Bill brought Quentin Tarantino on because Tarantino lives in Tel Aviv now, and can gush about how great the place is (except when it's being bombed by bad terrorists)? 

Bill had a decent point with his final New Rule -- there probably is more frequent alcohol consumption these days, brought on by our general isolation (whether self-enforced or not.) But I waited for him to make some suggestion about a solution, and he never did.

Ah well, I'm glad the show is on break now. I'm as exhausted with it as Bill must be. 

It should take a permanent break.

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DXD526

DXD526

Idealistic college kids aren't in my social sphere, so I don't know anyone who supports abolishing prisons. I'd never even heard of the concept before Brooks brought it up. Twice. And neither time did he bother to follow up with any facts. Why did he avoid naming these people he spoke of? Twice? It reminded me of 45's tactic he was so fond of, throwing off "People are saying...", whenever he wanted to advance a certain agenda, without ever saying who these people were. It just speaks of total self-serving dishonesty, something I'd never heard from Brooks before. Disappointing. 

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iMonrey

iMonrey

Quote

Why do I have the feeling Bill brought Quentin Tarantino on because Tarantino lives in Tel Aviv now, and can gush about how great the place is (except when it's being bombed by bad terrorists)?

Same. Of course I can only speak for myself but I'd never want to live someplace where you needed a bomb shelter on the regular.

Quote

Actually there are are people who want to defund the police and abolish prisons.  They tend to be idealistic university students who think we should all just love each other and sing kumbaya.

Yes but they aren't running for office. The premise here is that Democrats were running on a platform of defunding the police. Dan Carlin  even said something to the effect of "worst platform ever." That's a huge misconception, and one that right wing pundits gleefully push on cable news and elsewhere, and now Bill and his panel are pushing the same misconception! It actually galls me. Bill is so far gone at this point he actually seems to believe the bullshit you hear from these pundits on the right because he's so caught up in the idea that Democrats are a lost cause. I don't even know what the point of this show is anymore. It might as well be on Fox.

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ahpny

ahpny

Quote

Actually there are are people who want to defund the police and abolish prisons.  They tend to be idealistic university students who think we should all just love each other and sing kumbaya.  Trevor Noah interviewed some of them last summer; at first he assumed that they knew slogans were meant to be catcy, not literal plans, but they didn't

Some are elected officials as well. https://www.newsweek.com/which-lawmakers-support-defunding-police-1510556

They are few and sparse, but the Republicans have been "swift boating" Democrats for decades now, and a fair characterizations of the positions of most Democrats matters not at all. 

I found the Tarantino interview interesting despite my inability to keep with some of their movie history citations. I didn't know the name of that movie producer Bill cited as continuing on when Bill attempted to persuade Tarantino to make more than one additional movie. Bill wants Tarantino to soldier on until .... Tarantino drops dead just so Bill can watch more movies he likes? To me, this was another aspect of Bill failing to comprehend the life choices of others that are too different from his own. Bill seemingly abhors the idea of retirement. Nothing wrong with that, many others do too. But Tarantino, having already made many well-respected movies, apparently feels he's done enough and either doesn't want to do risk putting out lesser movies that would taint his legacy, or just doesn't have ideas that motivate him beyond his "one" next movie, or maybe he just wants to be around when his 15 month old son grows up. This exchange reminded me of Bill's discussion with Howard Stern about marriage.  Bill just seems incapable of understanding why people would make certain life-style decisions that he chooses not to make.

But I would push back a bit on Tarantino's decade-spanning movie theory that "they come in waves" and that ideology should be ignored when assessing movies and only talent matters. While I might lament, as they did, that many great movies of the past simply wouldn't get made today, I'm not sure erasing all ideological concerns is the solution. Triumph of the Will was critically acclaimed in its day before WW II and few would doubt that Leni Riefenstahl knew how to make impressive movies that were more than just technically proficient. She was famously shunned after WWII and made relatively few movies because of "ideology." Was that wrong too?

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RealHousewife

RealHousewife

(edited)
On 6/26/2021 at 3:50 PM, iMonrey said:

Same. Of course I can only speak for myself but I'd never want to live someplace where you needed a bomb shelter on the regular.

Yes but they aren't running for office. The premise here is that Democrats were running on a platform of defunding the police. Dan Carlin  even said something to the effect of "worst platform ever." That's a huge misconception, and one that right wing pundits gleefully push on cable news and elsewhere, and now Bill and his panel are pushing the same misconception! It actually galls me. Bill is so far gone at this point he actually seems to believe the bullshit you hear from these pundits on the right because he's so caught up in the idea that Democrats are a lost cause. I don't even know what the point of this show is anymore. It might as well be on Fox.

Thank you! Bill being politically incorrect never bothered me. He's always said things I disagreed with. I don't expect a perfect person. He didn't lose me when he made mistakes. I like hearing all viewpoints. I don't mind if he has guests I don't personally love. I like someone who truly speaks his mind, I like someone who holds everyone accountable, whether they share the same politics or not. What's changed imo is him constantly shitting on democrats in a way that's not fair based on facts and whining all the time about cancel culture. While I don't need for anyone to pander left or right and want honest opinions, I do wonder wtf the point of his show is too. What audience does he want? Right-wingers aren't going to love him anytime soon even if he talks like them. They've heard him say too many things they hate for decades. Progressives definitely aren't going to love him either. He's not even close to being one. Then those in the middle/those who don't care what his politics are but want someone who's got worthwhile, intelligent things to say are out too. As a fan of him for many years, it's honestly kind of embarrassing I liked him for so long. I think it's why I had a hard time seeing the negativity you all have been pointing out until more recently. His schtick is basically a democrat who likes to shit on all democrats based on a few and whine about the woke. The only things I still enjoy about the show is the fact there is a panel discussion, and Bill does still have good jokes here and there. I just wish we could get a different host to do a show with a similar vibe.

Edited by RealHousewife
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BrownBear2012

BrownBear2012

10 hours ago, RealHousewife said:

I almost feel like I'm watching Fox with some of the stuff Bill and his guests have been saying. That's not a compliment. I don't care about being politically correct or what their politics are, but seriously, stick with the facts. 

I've been saying that for a couple of years. Bill has morphed into some sort of quasi Libertarian/neoconservative. He's hard to watch these days...some of his language seems to be straight the mouths of Fox hosts. His dislike for "liberals" is visceral...wasn't he a liberal once upon a time? I don't know when or why his association with Democrats went off the rails but it is almost pathological at this point. I threw in the towel with this show almost two years ago. From what I gather reading posts on here about the show, it appears it has taken a steady slide downhill. It's too bad. At one time this was the show to beat...it was witty, informative, great conversation and healthy debate. Now it sounds like Bill ranting about the same things over and over and doing very little fact checking before he starts a rant. 

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iMonrey

iMonrey

Quote

 I don't know when or why his association with Democrats went off the rails but it is almost pathological at this point.

I think it can be traced back to his snub at Berkley, His obsession with liberals being snowflakes has only snowballed since then.

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RealHousewife

RealHousewife

41 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I think it can be traced back to his snub at Berkley, His obsession with liberals being snowflakes has only snowballed since then.

Bill seems to be looking more and more for things to be outraged about. That would make him the snowflake in my book. 

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letter8358

letter8358

Why does Bill Maher want Tarantino to direct more films? It's his choice. He did say he was doing one more film.

However, I can't imagine myself living in Israel. He seemed pretty uncomfortable when discussing it with Bill. That's just my take.

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benteen

benteen

On 6/26/2021 at 11:58 AM, iMonrey said:

Nobody is running on a "defund the police" platform. Criminy. I'm so disappointed in Max Brooks. I've come to expect this sort of idiocy from Bill but apparently Max doesn't pay much attention to politics either, except for the blurbs he sees on Twitter and Facebook. "Defund the police" Is something you see on picket signs at protests. It is not something anyone - ever - has run on as a campaign slogan, despite what this panel seemed to think. It's another stupid reason to say "this is why people hate Democrats" and it isn't even true. It's what you hear about Democrats on Fox News and  OAN. 

Speaking as someone who has actually met Max Brooks and read some of his work, I've always found him to be a thoughtful and well-informed individual.  He's certainly not someone who gets his news from Facebook and Twitter.  He's also not promoting a right-wing agenda and very much identifies as a Democrat. Last year for example he shared a video where he and his father endorsed Joe Biden for president.  Also that same year, Max and Mel appeared in a video encouraging people to wear masks and practice social distancing.  He's the last person who should be accused of delivering Fox News talking points.

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ebk57

ebk57

1 hour ago, BrownBear2012 said:

Tiffany Cross on Bill Maher…just go to MSNBC.com and navigate to Tiffany Cross, The Cross Connection and scroll down to her segment on Bill Maher.

Or, just go to the Media thread right here in this forum.  It's posted. 

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Avaleigh

Avaleigh

On 6/26/2021 at 11:58 AM, iMonrey said:

"Defund the police" Is something you see on picket signs at protests. It is not something anyone - ever - has run on as a campaign slogan, despite what this panel seemed to think. It's another stupid reason to say "this is why people hate Democrats" and it isn't even true. It's what you hear about Democrats on Fox News and  OAN. 

I'm so sick of Bill actually repeating right wing talking points. If he's this ill-informed he has no business even discussing these issues. 

There are politicians who have come out in support of defunding the police. No, they aren't using "Defund the police" as their personal campaign slogans, but there are politicians and liberal activists who are supportive of the idea of defunding the police. It got enough attention for Obama to go on record saying that using a slogan like "Defund the police" is a quick way to lose potential voters who might otherwise have listened to what a person who is in favor of police reform might actually have to say. Max Brooks was simply pointing out that the "Defund the police" slogan is obviously bad PR and of no help to the Democrats with regard to elections. 

The reason I think it makes sense that Bill continues to bring up these so called "right wing talking points" (cancel culture, wokeness, a slogan like defunding the police, etc) is because some of these mostly minor issues are actually going to sway certain voters. (Not just voters who are GOP for life.) I feel like Bill's show has a better sense of this than a lot of other media outlets right now. The right seems to know that they aren't going to win if they focus on real political issues so they're pushing the one thing they know can get people who are outside of their base fired up. I think it's easy to forget that there are a lot of people who vote based on superficial issues and these include the issues that fall under so-called cancel/consequence culture.

I feel like Bill is one of the few loud voices on the left who isn't afraid to be critical of something that could end up costing the Democrats next year and in 2024. IMO it's precisely because he identifies as a liberal that he isn't letting these subjects drop; he's concerned that this won't be beneficial to the party in the long run. 

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sistermagpie

sistermagpie

1 hour ago, Avaleigh said:

There are politicians who have come out in support of defunding the police. No, they aren't using "Defund the police" as their personal campaign slogans, but there are politicians and liberal activists who are supportive of the idea of defunding the police. It got enough attention for Obama to go on record saying that using a slogan like "Defund the police" is a quick way to lose potential voters who might otherwise have listened to what a person who is in favor of police reform might actually have to say. Max Brooks was simply pointing out that the "Defund the police" slogan is obviously bad PR and of no help to the Democrats with regard to elections. 

The reason I think it makes sense that Bill continues to bring up these so called "right wing talking points" (cancel culture, wokeness, a slogan like defunding the police, etc) is because some of these mostly minor issues are actually going to sway certain voters. (Not just voters who are GOP for life.) I feel like Bill's show has a better sense of this than a lot of other media outlets right now. The right seems to know that they aren't going to win if they focus on real political issues so they're pushing the one thing they know can get people who are outside of their base fired up. I think it's easy to forget that there are a lot of people who vote based on superficial issues and these include the issues that fall under so-called cancel/consequence culture.

I feel like Bill is one of the few loud voices on the left who isn't afraid to be critical of something that could end up costing the Democrats next year and in 2024. IMO it's precisely because he identifies as a liberal that he isn't letting these subjects drop; he's concerned that this won't be beneficial to the party in the long run. 

Always seems ironic, though, that when it comes to a topic he agrees with he admires the Republican plan of simply saying something and making everyone believe it. On Defund the Police, for instance, R's have been claiming city streets are dangerous war zones for years. Now they're claiming the spike in crime is due to BLM protests cowing police into being afraid to do their jobs and police departments being defunded, neither of which is true. But it's become an accepted reality.

Not that I think the left could have just done the same, because I think "urban (you know what that means) criminals are coming to kill you unless you support the police" is something people just really like to believe. They don't follow along as enthusiastically to Civil Rights movements. But it's just imo dishonest for Bill to pretend he's just a great political stratagist and bridge-builder when he talks about what the Dems should and shouldn't care about. It seems like he really does think that the grievances of his convervative, even white supremecist guests--should be respected and taken seriously even if they just come down to people not laughing at your jokes about trans people anymore, while the issues that don't affect him much (like being in constant danger from police harassment) are designer issues that affect no one and have driven nice people into the arms of Fascism.

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Avaleigh

Avaleigh

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

It seems like he really does think that the grievances of his convervative, even white supremecist guests--should be respected and taken seriously even if they just come down to people not laughing at your jokes about trans people anymore, while the issues that don't affect him much (like being in constant danger from police harassment) are designer issues that affect no one and have driven nice people into the arms of Fascism.

I'll address the bit in bold in the Small Talk thread.

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iMonrey

iMonrey

Quote

He's the last person who should be accused of delivering Fox News talking points.

And yet he is. Or to be fair, he is at the very least carrying their water for them. 

Quote

There are politicians who have come out in support of defunding the police. No, they aren't using "Defund the police" as their personal campaign slogans, but there are politicians and liberal activists who are supportive of the idea of defunding the police. 

Yes, and those are two different things. Saying you are in favor of reforming police departments is not "running on a Defund The Police platform." And that's what Max, Bill and Dan were actually saying, without nuance. That Democrats - as a whole or in general - have "Defund the Police" as a platform. They do not. That is, however, a misconception the right has been pushing. So great job giving it more air time.

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heatherchandler

heatherchandler

On 6/27/2021 at 8:00 PM, sistermagpie said:

Always seems ironic, though, that when it comes to a topic he agrees with he admires the Republican plan of simply saying something and making everyone believe it. On Defund the Police, for instance, R's have been claiming city streets are dangerous war zones for years. Now they're claiming the spike in crime is due to BLM protests cowing police into being afraid to do their jobs and police departments being defunded, neither of which is true. But it's become an accepted reality.

 

He is saying that the Republican party has a way with marketing.  That's really the crux of that argument.  I will take the other issue to small talk...

 

19 hours ago, iMonrey said:

And yet he is. Or to be fair, he is at the very least carrying their water for them. 

Yes, and those are two different things. Saying you are in favor of reforming police departments is not "running on a Defund The Police platform." And that's what Max, Bill and Dan were actually saying, without nuance. That Democrats - as a whole or in general - have "Defund the Police" as a platform. They do not. That is, however, a misconception the right has been pushing. So great job giving it more air time.

I think what the panel was saying, which is correct is that there ARE politicians saying, "yes, we DO mean that we want to defund the police."  If they are currently running for a seat this year or won't be running again until next year, that is a position some are taking.  

 

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sistermagpie

sistermagpie

1 minute ago, heatherchandler said:

He is saying that the Republican party has a way with marketing.  That's really the crux of that argument.  I will take the other issue to small talk...

 

But that's the opposite of what he's saying about the Dems. He doesn't think, for instance, that they should support trans rights and keep saying that's right until people see it as right or paint their opponents as coming to get you because they don't agree, he thinks they need to be quiet about any support they have for trans people for fear of scaring people away. 

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heatherchandler

heatherchandler

25 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

But that's the opposite of what he's saying about the Dems. He doesn't think, for instance, that they should support trans rights and keep saying that's right until people see it as right or paint their opponents as coming to get you because they don't agree, he thinks they need to be quiet about any support they have for trans people for fear of scaring people away. 

Marketing yourself is kind of all about keeping "popular" things in front of everyone's face, and hiding whatever may lose you a vote, whatever the issue is.  Once in the job, you can maybe do some good for trans people, but you have to get the job first.  

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BK1978

BK1978

On 6/26/2021 at 1:22 PM, izabella said:

Max even kicked off that discussion with a lie about "people who want to abolish prisons."  What people?  No people want to abolish prisons.  Maybe they want to abolish prison abuses, like no a/c in Arizona prisons in 100+ degree heat, which John Oliver highlighted recently. 

Max then called Bernie Sanders a "Jewish Communist" who is anti-Israel.  I guess that's why Bill agreed with everything Max said.

Nick Cannon has this whole "intellectual" discussion with a professor where he talks about wanting to abolish prisons.

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