S01.E10: Hostile Witness

[CrazyDog]

5 hours ago, Cranberry said:

The showrunner discussed Mallory and Kate here:

She also said in that interview that she doesn't think Jeanette is a bad person, just misguided. Not sure I agree...

And this is where the writers failed. That ending scene went beyond "misguided" IMO. They could have left Jeannette more option to interpretation by ending with the interview.

I think the scene with her emulating the court lady on the TV was the most damning, but other scenes didn't show her as someone with no empathy or guilt. Even her last convo with Kate she was showing some emotion, and at least to me, it read genuine.

But yeah, if they meant to show Jeannette as merely misguided and "not a bad person", they completely boffed it with the final scene and that unforgivable decision by Jeannette. She may as well have been twirling a mustache.

This is just an odd take, from the article and showrunner:

"I think Jeanette never felt like enough. She had a mother who pushed her to always try to be better. But again, like Cindy (Sarah Drew) says, she never showed her how. Jeanette had no blueprint, so I think that was internalized as beg, borrow, and steal or do whatever you have to. I don’t think Jeanette’s a bad person. I really don’t. I think she’s misguided. What will be next for that character in the world and in her mind is perhaps to be decided."

Also in the interview, a little irony talking about how society pits women again against each other, but minimized by the choice to make Jeannette another villain, IMO. 

"Yeah, that idea was always there. Someone asked me what we could take away from the show overall, and there are many things. One of them is listen to women. We as a society and we in the show pit people, and especially women, against each other. This idea that if these two girls just got to talking, maybe they figure it out. So the essence of that was always a component of the show and of the finale."

Edited June 17, 2021 by CrazyDog

[calliope1975]

I have a smidge of free time right now so I just watched the scene with Kate and Jeanette.

K: "In the morning, I called the cops."

J: "The news said he died in a shootout."

K: "They assumed that, I guess, because he died of a gunshot wound."

Scene of Jeanette and Jamie hearing the gunshot. J asking "What was that?" twice.

K: "I think I might have internalized that, too, after a while. My therapist says that can happen."

Now, if they're trying to say small town cops in Texas are bad at their jobs, well, having spent my childhood through my late 20's in TX, um, yeah, I'd believe that. 

Edited June 17, 2021 by calliope1975

[CarpeFelis]

19 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

That last bit where he  was telling Kate to "live her life" did feel a bit like "see, his love is real and pure deep down."

That felt manipulative on the part of the writers. OTOH, I think he did have some feelings for her (inappropriate and creepy, but feelings nonetheless). I don’t think Martin had planned all along to keep Kate as a prisoner in the basement. We were shown how he was becoming increasingly paranoid about being caught. I think when she sneaked out he realized he had no other choice if he didn’t want to land in prison. The only part of this that makes little sense is the “playing house” period that went on for months. Was he seriously so deluded as to believe that could just continue until she turned 18?

[peachmangosteen]

45 minutes ago, CrazyDog said:

And this is where the writers failed. That ending scene went beyond "misguided" IMO. They could have left Jeannette more option to interpretation by ending with the interview.

They could have even had the scene with Jeanette hearing Kate and just ended the episode without the smile imo. Then it would be easier to believe she perhaps left but then ended up sending in an anonymous tip. But that smile really keeps me from believing she did.

Do we know whether the writers always intended that Jeanette had heard Kate and they just simply weren’t going to point blank show it initially or did they actually come up with the idea of her having heard Kate late in the process of filming?

[CrazyDog]

13 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

They could have even had the scene with Jeanette hearing Kate and just ended the episode without the smile imo. Then it would be easier to believe she perhaps left but then ended up sending in an anonymous tip. But that smile really keeps me from believing she did.

Do we know whether the writers always intended that Jeanette had heard Kate and they just simply weren’t going to point blank show it initially or did they actually come up with the idea of her having heard Kate late in the process of filming?

Later in filming, as in this interview:

https://www.refinery29.com/amp/en-us/2021/06/10527906/cruel-summer-episode-10-jeanette-

A few more takes here from the showrunner about Jeannette is good person making a bad decision, and how she (and Kate) are better, stronger people in 95. Kate, yes, absolutely.

But I don't know if they're seeing the "Jeanette is a sociopath" takes or what, and are trying to backtrack, but they certainly have a different view of how they presented Jeannette than how the audience has seen her with that ending.

Edited June 17, 2021 by CrazyDog

[Ambrosefolly]

11 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

They could have even had the scene with Jeanette hearing Kate and just ended the episode without the smile imo. Then it would be easier to believe she perhaps left but then ended up sending in an anonymous tip. But that smile really keeps me from believing she did.

Do we know whether the writers always intended that Jeanette had heard Kate and they just simply weren’t going to point blank show it initially or did they actually come up with the idea of her having heard Kate late in the process of filming?

Interview from Business Insider

Quote

It’s a wild last-minute twist. And for the record, Napolitano knows it.

“This was not the plan from the beginning,” she told Insider in a phone interview. “When the idea first came up, we thought, ‘Oh that’s crazy, we can’t do that.’ And then the more we thought about it, crazy felt like the right fit for our fans, to give us that one final twist.”

There was another interview where Napolitano said they wanted to basically up the crazy at the very last minute. I can't find it at the moment. 

Edited June 17, 2021 by Ambrosefolly

[TattleTeeny]

Quote

They could have even had the scene with Jeanette hearing Kate and just ended the episode without the smile imo. Then it would be easier to believe she perhaps left but then ended up sending in an anonymous tip. But that smile really keeps me from believing she did.

Yeah! It could have worked with Jeanette hearing a voice and running out of there to avoid getting caught,* and then realizing later -- hopefully horrified! -- that the voice had been Kate's.

*But instead of "help," maybe just "Hello?" Otherwise, Jeanette would still be a bad person.

EDIT: Actually, this may be dumb; now that I think about it, it would be too similar to what happened with Mallory. Sorry! I just liked the idea of none of the chicks turning out to be a bad guy.

Edited June 17, 2021 by TattleTeeny

[RachelKM]

2 hours ago, Ambrosefolly said:

Interview from Business Insider

There was another interview where Napolitano said they wanted to basically up the crazy at the very last minute. I can't find it at the moment. 

I really think this woman might be at least as unclear about how humans work as Janette is if she believes that what they did leaves ambiguity as to Jeanette as a villain.

Napolitano literally said in this interview that they didn't want to show anyone as all "villains, victims, or heroes" and then created a twist that absolutely did the opposite. Prior to the tacked on scene you had:

Kate: Victim of Martin, falsely maligned and caused harm to Jeanette

Jeanette: Liar, thief, manipulative, innocent of causing any real harm and falsely accused resulting vastly disproportionate consequences for her actions.

Mallory: Bossy and vindictive toward Jeanette, genuinely kind and supportive friend to Kate

After the twist:

Kate: Victim of Martin, wrong about what she said, but manipulated into publicly defending a person who in fact wronged her. 

Jeanette: Liar, thief, manipulative, falsely accused, but accurately maligned and also actually willing to allow a young girl to  remain trapped in a basement allowing her continued abuse and potential death.  

As someone else said in response to Napolitano's other interview, that is WAAAAAAYYY past misguided.

Also, Jeanette's mom pushed her without giving her tools so she felt she had to beg, borrow, and steal?  Not having a road map to achieving goals and believing going full Talented Mr. Ripley is a an option are not similar.  Are we sure Napolitano isn't a sociopath?    

Edited June 17, 2021 by RachelKM

[waving feather]

I liked the show better before reading the showrunner or writers' takes. LOL. Unfortunately, they don't seem to know what they are doing fully. They should have either embraced Jeanette being psycho or not go there at all.

[RachelKM]

4 hours ago, waving feather said:

I liked the show better before reading the showrunner or writers' takes. LOL. Unfortunately, they don't seem to know what they are doing fully. They should have either embraced Jeanette being psycho or not go there at all.

Right?  I didn't love the twist at the end because I preferred Jeanette being sort of a terrible person but also not a villain.  I accepted, however, that it was within the bounds of the character we'd been shown. 

But now that I know the show runners were under the impression that this twist left ambiguity as to Jeanette's nature and that she was merely "misguided," I'm now not only unnerved by the choice but also by the writers' understanding of how to human. 

Edited June 17, 2021 by RachelKM

[peachmangosteen]

4 hours ago, waving feather said:

I liked the show better before reading the showrunner or writers' takes. 

Words to fucking live by and yet every time I read interviews with showrunners. I will never learn dammit!

Honestly, it seems to me that there are virtually no showrunners/writers who seem to fully understand what the audience is seeing versus what they think they are showing.

[Mabinogia]

6 hours ago, RachelKM said:

I really think this woman might be at least as unclear about how humans work as Janette is if she believes that what they did leaves ambiguity as to Jeanette as a villain.

I think they could have pulled it off, having Jeannette hear Kate but then just leave if not for the smile. Making her smile just makes her seem like a sociopath while having her make a terrible, split second decision not to help when she heard the cries for help makes her what they seem to think she was, someone who made a really bad choice that changed the direction of her and Kate's lives. Even without her phoning in a tip I would be willing to give her a chance of redemption if she had just had a selfish teenager moment. Having her smile though makes it seem like she was happy Kate was a prisoner and having her assume they found Kate dead just...yeah, there is no redemption from that. It's a very odd choice and does sound like they just threw it in for the sake of a twist, which is one of the things I hate more than anything. 

I don't mind Jeanette being a sociopath, I think that has potential for an interesting story. what worries me is that the writers don't realize they made her a sociopath all for the sake of a "big!shocking!twist!!!!" BOOOOO

[Irlandesa]

1 hour ago, peachmangosteen said:

Words to fucking live by and yet every time I read interviews with showrunners. I will never learn dammit!

Ha! Vince Gilligan is probably the only show runner who does a great job of being descriptive without being prescriptive and understands that the audience will sometimes experience the show in ways he didn't anticipate.  I can only think of one time he started to push back. 

I don't think admitting it was a last minute decision makes them look all that good. It basically admits that the sole purpose in that ending was for the cheap and shocking thrill. And cheap thrills will definitely get them ink but it undermines everything that came before it that hinted there was more to the story.  I guess the complexity of Jeanette is all down to the actress. 

Honestly, If they're going for a cheap thrill, fine--but man, don't admit that out loud.

[waving feather]

5 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

Honestly, If they're going for a cheap thrill, fine--but man, don't admit that out loud.

Yeah it's dumb of them to admit it. Also dumb to admit that they have not considered anything for season 2 and is just starting to brainstorm now since it got renewed. This showrunner may be too "honest", lol. Just say you are working on it and it's gonna exciting and go.

[Eliot]

On 6/16/2021 at 11:43 PM, ZeeEnnui said:

At first, I couldn't believe how quickly Kate forgave Mallory (I'm Irish and we hold a helluva a grudge) but then the more I thought about it, I realized it made sense. Mallory honestly didn't know that it was Kate, she thought it was a girlfriend, and at this point she had no reason to think it could possibly her missing classmate. After realizing who she saw after Kate was rescued, Mallory kept quiet about what she'd seen to protect Kate. I didn't see it as malicious. Just a messy situation. I still may have been slow to forgive, but for Kate I think she was just so relieved for things to be over. Of course, poor Kate didn't realize that she got played by a Scrunchie Sociopath. 

What I’m struggling to understand is why Kate would not apply that same logic to Jeanette when she thought that Jeanette was the one who had seen her. Again, Kate was not being held prisoner at the time she thought Jeanette had seen her. So I don’t understand her anger, and I don’t understand why she would reveal it on national TV when anyone digging into the question would have immediately learned the truth.

Edited June 18, 2021 by Eliot

[peachmangosteen]

3 hours ago, Eliot said:

What I’m struggling to understand is why Kate would not apply that same logic to Jeanette when she thought that Jeanette was the one who had seen her. Again, Kate was not being held prisoner at the time she thought Jeanette had seen her. So I don’t understand her anger, and I don’t understand why she would reveal it on national TV when anyone digging into the question would have immediately learned the truth.

I think it's because Kate was jealous/upset that Jeanette took over her life. Plus, she didn't even really know Jeanette beforehand while she had become very close to Mallory so she was more willing to try to understand/believe Mallory.

[mandymax]

Don't forget, Jeannette's own father commented to his girlfriend something along the lines of "My daughter is a sociopath."  And this was maybe halfway through the season.  So there are indications that Jeannette is, in fact, a bit more complicated than "misguided."

[peachmangosteen]

10 minutes ago, mandymax said:

So there are indications that Jeannette is, in fact, a bit more complicated than "misguided."

Exactly, but the people who wrote that are out here trying to tell us she's just misguided. Like, the writers are idiots lol.

They also apparently said Martin really did intend to kill himself but then just couldn't bring himself to do it. I get that the writers wanna see people as multi-dimensional but Martin was a fucking monster and I hate that they didn't just present him as that full stop. 

[Irlandesa]

4 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

I get that the writers wanna see people as flawed but Martin was a fucking monster and I hate that they didn't just present him as that full stop. 

I think showing Martin as human was an important way to tell the story while he was grooming Kate.  It's important to show that she chose to be with him because she was connecting to a human as opposed to an obvious monster.  

But I really didn't understand what the narrative point was to make it seem like he was making a sacrifice at this point of the story even if it might happen in real life.  Show it? Maybe. But to end on it?

[TattleTeeny]

Yeah, if they presented Martin as anything more than a subtle creep (maybe noticeable only to grownup ladies, as opposed to teenaged girls), viewers would think Kate was a stupid idiot. And if the show was intended to be more about the whole grooming process than about "madman steals local girl," it would not work with Martin shown as an obvious monster. 

Quote

Don't forget, Jeannette's own father commented to his girlfriend something along the lines of "My daughter is a sociopath."  And this was maybe halfway through the season.  So there are indications that Jeannette is, in fact, a bit more complicated than "misguided."

I didn't take Jeanette's dad's use of the term literally. He was angry and beat down and out of work and in debt--not to mention probably not familiar with the DSM, haha! He probably over- and misuses the word like tons of other people do.

Edited June 18, 2021 by TattleTeeny

[peachmangosteen]

Quote

But I really didn't understand what the narrative point was to make it seem like he was making a sacrifice at this point of the story even if it might happen in real life.  Show it? Maybe. But to end on it?

Because they romanticized him imo. I think they did that more because they wanted to present all the characters in sympathetic ways but I fucking hate that they even gave Martin that treatment. Let him look like the monster he is for fuck’s sake!

[TattleTeeny]

I think (hope?) that the “romantization” of him was done deliberately to make a point about how this can happen to an otherwise intelligent and astute girl. We all know he’s a creep regardless of what Kate initially thought, so it feels to me like it worked. 

[Ambrosefolly]

2 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

I think showing Martin as human was an important way to tell the story while he was grooming Kate.  It's important to show that she chose to be with him because she was connecting to a human as opposed to an obvious monster.  

But I really didn't understand what the narrative point was to make it seem like he was making a sacrifice at this point of the story even if it might happen in real life.  Show it? Maybe. But to end on it?

I think in a lot of ways, this show was a little sister companion to other "teacher grooms student" miniseries, A Teacher (also on Hulu and debuted within a year of Cruel Summer). They never made Kate Mara's character an almost Machiavellian, Lifetime television villain, which made the entire grooming process of Eric even more horrifying, because it could and has happened. Neither Martin nor Claire explicit planned out how to get those teens into sexual relationships, but when chances to be closer to Kate and Eric arose, they took it. Even did a bit of a push pull, where they verbally reject both of them, but those teens came back and apologized, making them almost willing victims.

Edited June 18, 2021 by Ambrosefolly

[TattleTeeny]

I think one part of the grooming routine is generally manipulating situations to make it appear that whatever happens is the victim's idea. Obviously, Martin couldn't have known that Kate would show up at his place, but then there's the "oh drat, my mistake--by no means should you drink that booze," etc...

Edited June 18, 2021 by TattleTeeny

[mandymax]

2 hours ago, TattleTeeny said:

I didn't take Jeanette's dad's use of the term literally. He was angry and beat down and out of work and in debt--not to mention probably not familiar with the DSM, haha! He probably over- and misuses the word like tons of other people do.

I would agree, if it weren't for all the other little things we saw where Jeannette was concerned - the obsession with the scrunchy, the smile at the news Kate was missing, the smile when she realized Kate was locked in the basement, even the constant coming and going from Martin's house anytime she pleased.  Maybe the writers didn't want to come out and say the word, but I do think they were implying an awful lot for a purpose, and they gave the character of Jeannette's dad the onus of calling her what they were getting at.

That's just how I see it, though.

[TattleTeeny]

Oh, yeah -- the smiles definitely mean something. But her dad didn't see them or anything else that would scream sociopathy. 

[tennisgurl]

I don't know if Jeanette is actually a clinical sociopath, in that she was born with a mental disorder that makes it almost impossible for her to feel empathy for other people, or if she is just a terrifyingly selfish and manipulative person. I think she is capable of caring about people like Vince and her family in a way that feels real and not a manipulation or a performance, just that empathy only goes so far when it comes to her becoming the person she wants to be. In a way, saying that Jeanette is a sociopath almost takes some responsibility off of her and what she did. A sociopath is born the way that they are, Jeanette was just horribly selfish and did an unforgivable thing so that she wouldn't have any competition for her It Girl status. 

Looking at the list of the most common traits sociopaths have, Jeanette does have quite a lot of them though. She manipulates, lies, engages in thrill seeking behavior, has narcissistic tendencies, and certainly shows a lack of empathy, although I still don't know if I would call her an actual sociopath. 

3 hours ago, Ambrosefolly said:

think in a lot of ways, this show was a little sister companion to other "teacher grooms student" miniseries, A Teacher (also on Hulu and debuted within a year of Cruel Summer).

I was thinking of the same thing, Martin's constant refrain of "My life would be ruined if we got caught!" was very similar to what Claire always said when she wanted to guilt trip the teenager she was abusing into keeping everything a secret, much like the way that Martin would always manipulate Kate into staying at his house. Its a clear manipulation, making it sound like its the abusers who are the ones with the most to lose, guilting their victims into staying quiet out their feelings for the abusers. Both shows do a really good job at showing how predators are often not these obviously sleazy and evil villains who lurk in parking garages and pray on innocent kids walking home, but can be attractive, charming, seemingly trustworthy authority figures who use that power to manipulate and abuse vulnerable kids. Its telling that the story Kate told, that Martin lured her into his car and offered her a drugged drink and she woke up locked up, seems like the more "obvious" story of a kidnapper and abuser, while the actual story is much more complex to explain but just as tragic. 

I for one don't believe for a second that Martin ever really planned to kill himself to "free" Kate, that was all just theatrics so that Kate would keep feeling guilty that she was "hurting" him by being there and would be less likely to make trouble. If he really wanted to die, he would have let Kate shoot him and not try to get the gun away from her. 

[Mabinogia]

32 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I for one don't believe for a second that Martin ever really planned to kill himself to "free" Kate

If he was really thinking of killing himself I think it was more because he was concerned he was going to get caught/found out and end up in jail, not because he's such a great, loving guy he wants his prisoner to be "free" cause, you know, he could have just let her leave if he was concerned about her.

[DoubleUTeeEff]

As long as we're talking about it, I think Jeanette has more traits of a malignant narcissist than a sociopath, especially considering her preoccupation with image. These are from https://www.healthline.com/health/malignant-narcissism#traits

My comments in italics.

NPD

Like other personality disorders, NPD occurs on a spectrum and involves a range of symptoms. The DSM-5 lists nine traits that help identify NPD, but only five are needed for diagnosis.

Common symptoms of NPD include:

grandiose fantasies and behavior, such as a preoccupation with thoughts of personal success, power, and attractiveness or sex appeal -she definitely has this

little or no empathy for other people’s emotions or feelings - yes

a significant need for attention, admiration, and recognition -yes

an inflated sense of self-importance, such as a tendency to exaggerate personal talent or achievements - not sure there was any evidence of this

a belief in personal specialness and superiority - ?

a sense of entitlement - I think so

a tendency to take advantage of others or exploit people for personal gain -absolutely

arrogant or conceited behavior and attitudes - not really

a tendency to envy others and believe others envy them - definitely envied others

People with NPD often have trouble dealing with change. They may feel depressed or humiliated when they feel slighted, have a hard time with insecurity and vulnerability, and react angrily when others don’t seem to regard them with the admiration they need and feel they deserve. - Very much so. She went to the extreme of suing Kate when her image was tarnished.

On the other hand here are the traits for sociopaths or antisocial personality disorder:

APD

The primary features of this condition are consistent disregard for other people’s feelings. This can include manipulation and deceit as well as physical or emotional abuse. Another key component is a lack of remorse for wrongdoing.

Violent or aggressive behavior can be a sign of this condition, but some people living with APD never behave violently.

People living with APD typically show symptoms of conduct disorder in childhood. This may include violence toward other people and animals, vandalism, or theft. They generally don’t consider or care about the consequences of their actions.

Only adults are diagnosed with APD. A diagnosis requires at least three of the following symptoms:

disdain for authority and social norms, shown by continued illegal or lawbreaking behavior -she did break into Martin's place a bunch but beyond that not so much

a pattern of deceit, including exploitation and manipulation of other people - yes

reckless, impulsive, or risky behavior that shows disregard for personal safety or the safety of other people -no

little or no remorse for harmful or illegal actions - yes

a generally hostile, irritable, aggressive, restless, or agitated mood - only after she lost her popularity, otherwise she was fairly pleasant

a pattern of irresponsible, arrogant, or disrespectful behavior - no

difficulty planning ahead - not at all!

[KaveDweller]

3 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

If he was really thinking of killing himself I think it was more because he was concerned he was going to get caught/found out and end up in jail, not because he's such a great, loving guy he wants his prisoner to be "free" cause, you know, he could have just let her leave if he was concerned about her.

Yeah, I think he did want to kill himself, but only because he was afraid of getting caught and going to jail. He didn't see any way out and realized he couldn't keep her hidden for ever.

It wasn't about helping her, that was just to keep making himself look good.

[peachmangosteen]

3 hours ago, mandymax said:

That's just how I see it, though.

I think many of us see it that way. The problem is, the writers don't lol.

9 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

If he was really thinking of killing himself I think it was more because he was concerned he was going to get caught/found out and end up in jail, not because he's such a great, loving guy he wants his prisoner to be "free" cause, you know, he could have just let her leave if he was concerned about her.

True. I'm sure the writers have other ideas though since they don't seem to have any clue how their show actually came off.

They should have just took the win with how popular this show was and kept their mouths shut on their own intentions lol.

[Mabinogia]

1 minute ago, KaveDweller said:

Yeah, I think he did want to kill himself, but only because he was afraid of getting caught and going to jail. He didn't see any way out and realized he couldn't keep her hidden for ever.

It wasn't about helping her, that was just to keep making himself look good.

I guess we're supposed to think "good guy, he didn't want to let her die once he killed himself but...nope. He was a selfish, predatory asshole who didn't want to be locked. Ironic considering he had no issue locking someone else up." 

I am terribly disappointed in hearing that the writers don't think Jeanette is bad, just "misguided" because that's not what they filmed. They directed, filmed and edited a story about a young woman who may have started out misguided, started out without the strongest moral compass, but who, through a series of small acts that slowly escalated, became, if not a clinical sociopath, pretty damned close to one, and that's actually a fascinating story, but they screwed it up in the end by saying they had no clue what they were doing and clearly didn't mean to tell that story. 

[Cinnabon]

18 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

If he was really thinking of killing himself I think it was more because he was concerned he was going to get caught/found out and end up in jail, not because he's such a great, loving guy he wants his prisoner to be "free" cause, you know, he could have just let her leave if he was concerned about her.

Yes, I do think he wanted to poll himself for exactly these reasons but was too cowardly to do it. 

14 minutes ago, KaveDweller said:

Yeah, I think he did want to kill himself, but only because he was afraid of getting caught and going to jail. He didn't see any way out and realized he couldn't keep her hidden for ever.

It wasn't about helping her, that was just to keep making himself look good.

While that is a possibility, I think we should get away from trying to give clinical diagnoses. I actually have a masters degree in mental health, and it’s a lot more difficult and nuanced to assign a clinical diagnosis than simply googling. 🤷‍♀️

Edited June 18, 2021 by Cinnabon

[marlor]

I don't know if I'm reading too much into it, but wasn't that the pearl necklace Martin gave to Kate for Christmas that Jeannette wore in the TV interview?

[KaveDweller]

1 hour ago, Cinnabon said:

While that is a possibility, I think we should get away from trying to give clinical diagnoses. I actually have a masters degree in mental health, and it’s a lot more difficult and nuanced to assign a clinical diagnosis than simply googling. 🤷‍♀️

I don't think speculating about why Martin killed himself is trying to give a clinical diagnoses. He's just a fictional character and it's just part of the fun of this board. 

Because yes, I agree, assigning an actual diagnosis is more difficult and not something most of us are trained to do.

[LuvMyShows]

 

23 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Well I guess Jeanette did say she never saw Kate....

I am confused about something.  Prior to the show revealing that it was Mallory that night on the bike, they kept showing a hooded person on their bike looking back and it was implied that that's when the person locked eyes with Kate, and we thought all along that it was Jeanette.  Then after it's revealed that it was Mallory, we see that Mallory saw a blond from the back (when Kate was on the phone), and Mallory thought it was just some woman.  Then we see Kate go upstairs when Jeanette comes in, and then after Jeanette leaves we see Kate come back down to the window and knock over whatever it was that made the noise, causing whoever was in the hood to look at the window.  But....at that point, Kate was forward-facing to the window, so Mallory would have seen Kate from the front and know that it was her.  I don't recall that point being addressed.

22 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

She basically repeated Kate's big interview in her victory interview, right down to wearing almost the same outfit and pearls and doing the "I forgive you" ending call back. 

The thing that clued me in was Jeanette was wearing a black headband in that interview.  We saw Kate throw hers in the trash can after her interview, so it probably wasn't the exact same headband (like with the scrunchie), but still the same type.

 

14 hours ago, waving feather said:

Jeanette was telling Kate the truth when she told Kate that all she ever wanted was to know how it felt like to be in the spotlight/popular like Kate. 

So what confused me about that, is that IIRC, Kate asked Jeanette why she sued her, and Jeanette replied that she wanted to experience being in the "sunlight" like Kate...but by instigating the lawsuit, she was not in the sunlight at all, but hated.  The sunlight answer would have made sense if Kate had asked Jeanette why she basically stole Kate's identity.  It's also interesting that Jeanette was asked the same question in the interview -- why she filed the lawsuit -- and she said she wanted the truth, but ironically the real truth was what she had told Kate.

12 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

Yeah I tried to defend Mallory a few times and I got outright flamed.  Someone actually called me a horrible person for thinking Mallory wasn’t the villain of the story equal to Martin and I should be arrested myself,   I kinda stopped after that.   

This is sooo disappointing to hear about Twitter, and really, really makes me appreciate the reasonableness/politeness of these forums!!

8 hours ago, CrazyDog said:

The Martin shootout story made zero sense. Are we supposed to assume the family and police kept Kate killing Martin from being leaked to the media?

And that no reporters asked anything like, "Which officers were involved in the shootout?  Were any of them injured?  Where in the house did the shootout take place?  Where was Kate while the shootout was taking place?  What brought the police to the house in the first place?"

[Ambrosefolly]

On 6/16/2021 at 10:09 AM, Chaos Theory said:

Yeah I tried to defend Mallory a few times and I got outright flamed.  Someone actually called me a horrible person for thinking Mallory wasn’t the villain of the story equal to Martin and I should be arrested myself,   I kinda stopped after that.   People are weird.  My point has always been their was no actual evidence of Mallory doing anything wrong except maybe being a bit of a bully to Jeanette in 93.  Jeanette on the other hand was perfectly willing to drop Mallory at the first opportunity and looking back she was already stalking both Kate and Martin at this point at least passively.    And yeah now we know Jeanette did know Kate was in the basement later.  People are making excuses for her.  Jamie gets to have his moment.     Heck even Martin has his defenders.    But Mallory it’s all hate all the time.

The worst things about Mallory is that she is obsessive, bossy and awkward, but she can be loyal and likes to push people out of their comfort zones. She never came across as a evil person. If anything she seemed to be overly sensitive, which is a typical teenage trait. HQS isn't the best actress, but I was touched at her reaction when Mallory realized that she was the only person Kate invited on her birthday. Again, I am not a fan of the potential of Mallory and Kate being a couple, but with both of their personalities, it made sense on a level.

Edited June 19, 2021 by Ambrosefolly

[KaveDweller]

1 hour ago, LuvMyShows said:

I am confused about something.  Prior to the show revealing that it was Mallory that night on the bike, they kept showing a hooded person on their bike looking back and it was implied that that's when the person locked eyes with Kate, and we thought all along that it was Jeanette.  Then after it's revealed that it was Mallory, we see that Mallory saw a blond from the back (when Kate was on the phone), and Mallory thought it was just some woman.  Then we see Kate go upstairs when Jeanette comes in, and then after Jeanette leaves we see Kate come back down to the window and knock over whatever it was that made the noise, causing whoever was in the hood to look at the window.  But....at that point, Kate was forward-facing to the window, so Mallory would have seen Kate from the front and know that it was her.  I don't recall that point being addressed.

It looked like they showed Mallory's point of view looking back at the house, and she just saw a dark window with a shadow in it. Kate had turned all the lights off before looking out the window, probably to avoid being seen. And it seems it worked.

I don't know how Kate thought anyone could have recognized her looking from a dark street into a dark window 

[Ambrosefolly]

39 minutes ago, KaveDweller said:

It looked like they showed Mallory's point of view looking back at the house, and she just saw a dark window with a shadow in it. Kate had turned all the lights off before looking out the window, probably to avoid being seen. And it seems it worked.

I don't know how Kate thought anyone could have recognized her looking from a dark street into a dark window 

At a distance as well. Someone speculated Jeanette not wearing glasses would play a role into seeing her but not seeing her.

Edited June 19, 2021 by Ambrosefolly

[LangeFan]

5 hours ago, LuvMyShows said:

So what confused me about that, is that IIRC, Kate asked Jeanette why she sued her, and Jeanette replied that she wanted to experience being in the "sunlight" like Kate...but by instigating the lawsuit, she was not in the sunlight at all, but hated.  The sunlight answer would have made sense if Kate had asked Jeanette why she basically stole Kate's identity.  It's also interesting that Jeanette was asked the same question in the interview -- why she filed the lawsuit -- and she said she wanted the truth, but ironically the real truth was what she had told Kate.

IIRC Jeanette's explanation about why she sued and why she supposedly assumed Kate's life were separate in that scene?

Jeanette sued because Kate basically ruined Jeanette's life by outing her as someone who saw her in the house but didn't go to the cops about it. In the back and forth shouting over this, Kate then admitted that she was angry about her life being stolen while she was locked up in Martin's basement. Jeanette then elaborates on that saying, as you wrote, that she wanted to experience being in the 'sunlight'.

This reasoning was only about why she assumed Kate's life and not why she sued her. Naturally she did lose all the perks of being "New Kate" once actual Kate returned, and this probably did make Jeanette angry, but, for all outward appearances, the law suit was based on the character defamation brought about by Kate's interview.

 

[peachmangosteen]

12 hours ago, LuvMyShows said:

But....at that point, Kate was forward-facing to the window, so Mallory would have seen Kate from the front and know that it was her.  I don't recall that point being addressed.

Just want to echo what someone else said about them showing Mallory's POV of the window and she could not see inside, she could only see the lights of the house across the street reflecting in the window.

11 hours ago, KaveDweller said:

I don't know how Kate thought anyone could have recognized her looking from a dark street into a dark window 

I don't think she really did tbh. I just think she was upset that Jeanette took over her life and she remembered that moment and (more understandable reason) talked herself into believing Jeanette saw her or (more dickish reason) just wanted to punish Jeanette so she fibbed again, like she did with how she ended up at Martin's.

[LuvMyShows]

15 hours ago, LangeFan said:

IIRC Jeanette's explanation about why she sued and why she supposedly assumed Kate's life were separate in that scene?

Jeanette sued because Kate basically ruined Jeanette's life by outing her as someone who saw her in the house but didn't go to the cops about it. In the back and forth shouting over this, Kate then admitted that she was angry about her life being stolen while she was locked up in Martin's basement. Jeanette then elaborates on that saying, as you wrote, that she wanted to experience being in the 'sunlight'.

This reasoning was only about why she assumed Kate's life and not why she sued her. Naturally she did lose all the perks of being "New Kate" once actual Kate returned, and this probably did make Jeanette angry, but, for all outward appearances, the law suit was based on the character defamation brought about by Kate's interview.

 

So I got curious and went to re-watch.  Here's the dialogue:

Kate - Jeanette, you should sue me.  You didn't deserve any of this.  You should go, take the money.

Jeanette - It was never about the money.

K - Then what was it about?

J - All I ever wanted was to maybe feel what it was like to be like you.  Not to actually be you, just, I never felt like I was popular or beautiful or enough.  I just wanted to know what that felt like. To just once have the sun shining on me.

Sooo, what's unclear is what the "it" is referring to in Kate's question.  It seems like in terms of how it was written in the script, it has to be the money and the lawsuit, since that's what they were talking about.  But Jeanette's answer, as has been mentioned, doesn't seem to have anything to do with a desired outcome from the lawsuit but rather a desired outcome from taking over Kate's life.  

[Jess14]

I binged the show over the last few days, and I liked the finale. However, after reading comments from the writer, I’m very disappointed in the twist. I thought that Jeanette exhibited sociopathic behavior throughout, so the ending scene was believable to me. I thought they could go either way with her. However, knowing that it was just a twist for the sake of a twist, and we’re just supposed to see Jeanette as misguided……. That really annoys me.

If they wanted to go the misguided route, it would’ve made more sense for Jeanette to have seen Kate on another occasion in the house (before Martin locked her in the basement). However, she heard her crying for help from a locked basement, and as far as Jeanette knew, she had been down there the whole time! For her to do nothing in that instance takes her behavior waaaaay past “misguided.” They should’ve thought about that a lot more before adding it. 

Edited June 20, 2021 by Jess14
Typo

[TattleTeeny]

Man, a “twist for the sake of a twist” almost always annoys me! And it’s what ruins so many otherwise good horror movies!

[RachelKM]

16 hours ago, LuvMyShows said:

Sooo, what's unclear is what the "it" is referring to in Kate's question.  It seems like in terms of how it was written in the script, it has to be the money and the lawsuit, since that's what they were talking about.  But Jeanette's answer, as has been mentioned, doesn't seem to have anything to do with a desired outcome from the lawsuit but rather a desired outcome from taking over Kate's life.  

I thought it made sense as an explanation related to the lawsuit.  Jeanette is addressing the fact that money is not and was not ever her goal or what motivates her. Being liked and respected was her goal. Her motivation for pursuing it was to restore her standing in public, to at least her pre It girl status. 

Filing the lawsuit and losing would have made Jeanette more hated (if possible), but winning would vindicate her in at least some people's minds even if it condemned her further in others.  And, to the extent that she would still be somewhat hated, well she would at least have some money.

However, being fully vindicated by Kate herself was the best possible outcome and dropping the suit without gaining any money furthered her redemption as the victim/innocent girl wronged. For Jeanette, the vindication coupled with the celebrity and near saint image was better than money.

Jeanette's speech about feeling the sun took place in the basement.  The "You stole my life!" "You didn't even want it!" exchange happened on the ground floor before they actually started talking about what happened on Christmas Eve. 

[Soobs]

I found Jeanette's whole family creepy. The overly permissive father, the brother stealing private information from a woman he just had sex with, let alone the family thinking it's totally fine to bankrupt a traumatized, kidnap victim's family by any means necessary. The mom who took off to be a flight attendant had the right idea. Run!

[BigDfromLA]

I hope the second season continues with the same cast. Both Olivia and Chiara were spectacular throughout season one. The show just can't lose such amazing actresses and retain quality. I think the story can be picked up in the summer of '96. After a quiet few months we can revisit the characters that summer, maybe both would have slipped even further into the abyss they were at in '95. Unresolved issues from season one could hit everyone and create an intriguing story. What was so great about Olivia and Chiara was not only how different each looked in all three years ('93,'94 and'95), but how they acted their characters so differently in all three. It was like seeing six different girls with distinct personalities and experiences as each young lady performed their character in those three years. For either to be missing from season two as a major character would created a huge void that would ruin the show.

[Misty79]

What a wonderful use of the song “Creep” and one of the best endings to a series I’ve seen in a very long time. Tight writing. 

[Ambrosefolly]

4 hours ago, Misty79 said:

What a wonderful use of the song “Creep” and one of the best endings to a series I’ve seen in a very long time. Tight writing. 

Disagree, I hated the ending with Jeanette in Martin's home. Looked totally tacked on (even before the producers commentary and the show lost the moral ambiguity it had, which was enjoyable. 

16 hours ago, Soobs said:

I found Jeanette's whole family creepy. The overly permissive father, the brother stealing private information from a woman he just had sex with, let alone the family thinking it's totally fine to bankrupt a traumatized, kidnap victim's family by any means necessary. The mom who took off to be a flight attendant had the right idea. Run!

The mom could be just as weird as the rest of her family with her fixation on status and the Wallis (calling Vince's and Mallory's well meaning birthday present cheap). She helped cultivate Jeanette's obsession with Kate's life. Then she takes off. Cindy tried to deal with the fallout, but Jeanette resented the heck out of her. 

[CrystalBlue]

4 hours ago, Ambrosefolly said:

Disagree, I hated the ending with Jeanette in Martin's home. Looked totally tacked on (even before the producers commentary and the show lost the moral ambiguity it had, which was enjoyable. 

The mom could be just as weird as the rest of her family with her fixation on status and the Wallis (calling Vince's and Mallory's well meaning birthday present cheap). She helped cultivate Jeanette's obsession with Kate's life. Then she takes off. Cindy tried to deal with the fallout, but Jeanette resented the heck out of her. 

I forgot about Cindy calling the gift from Vince and Mallory cheap so I rescind my agreement that Cindy should run because she's the only normal one or deserves better.  Both Cindy and Joy were status obsessed.