S01.E05: Truth

[Angeleyes]

This article covers some of the fandom reaction to this episode, but also problematic issues in the writing and fan response of the MCU in general.  
 

What Fandom in “Falcon and the Winter Soldier” Teaches Us About Misogynoir

[paigow]

17 hours ago, MochaJay said:

Zemo served a number of functions:-

Character-wise: He's a 'villain', 

guilty of dance crimes

[wmdekooning]

18 hours ago, Silver-hyren said:

Cap's shield is like Xena's chakram: it's only razor sharp/deadly when the writers need it to be for dramatic effect.

I’ve been wondering the last week how Zeno managed to not have a massive concussion or failing that a massive contusion on his face where John Walker smacked him in the head with said shield...

[Cobalt Stargazer]

He did get knocked out, though. And later while he and Sam were having the conversation about whether or not Sam would take the serum, Zemo was lying on the couch with a wet washcloth on his forehead and over his eyes. No black eye or anything like that, but maybe it was because John hadn't yet taken the super juice? I don't know.

[kay1864]

16 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

putting Captain America on trial is not in the military's best interest, or the country's

 Except that this isn’t the real Captain America in the eyes of many. Not to mention that all of those videos have already gone viral, losing whatever public acclaim he might have had. Third, a court martial is not the same as a public trial. It’s conducted in private.

 I still don’t see how the military, or a Senator, can choose not to give him a court-martial. A court-martial seems almost mandatory to me, given the circumstances.  You can’t avoid it, just because certain government officials made a bad decision (in retrospect) to give him the shield.

Edited April 18, 2021 by kay1864

[Chicago Redshirt]

5 minutes ago, kay1864 said:

 Except that this isn’t the real Captain America in the eyes of many. Not to mention that all of those videos have already gone viral, losing whatever public acclaim he might have had. Third, a court martial is not the same as a public trial. It’s conducted in private.

 I still don’t see how the military, or a Senator, can choose not to give him a court-martial. A court-martial seems almost mandatory to me, given the circumstances.  You can’t avoid it, just because certain government officials made a bad decision (in retrospect) to give him the shield.

First of all, we don't know if Walker was not accepted as Cap by many, or really any. Heck, even Bucky and Sam didn't question out loud Walker's right to go around calling himself Cap or the government's right to set himself up as Cap, they just didn't like that he had Cap's shield. So I don't think we have one on-screen example of anybody saying that Walker isn't the "real" Captain America.

But even accepting it as true for discussion's sake that there is in the MCU a widespread #notmycap sentiment out there, it's mostly irrelevant. The government put Walker out as a valid Cap replacement, created what has to be a major publicity push of him as  Cap, including a splashy production and Good Morning America interview. It seems reasonable that the government would want to move on in as quick and efficient a manner as possible. 

There is a possibility that if you put Walker on trial, he wins. There are almost certainly people who would say that Walker was justified in killing Nico despite the optics, as Val alludes to. What do you do then, if you're the government, if he gets a jury of such people and they acquit him? Keep him on as Cap even though many people think he is a murderer? Indeed, there are twin risks here -- that you alienate people who think that the killing was justified and you offer proof to those who might say that the government is running wild and doesn't care what Walker did. 

Even if you could guarantee a conviction, there are probably some messy details about Walker that you might not want out in the open.

That the actual trial is conducted in private would not stop there from being extensive coverage about it, leakage of testimony, and either the wrong result or messy results. 

Prosecutors have wide discretion to bring charges or not bring charges generally. So it's certainly plausible that they could look at this not as cold-blooded murder, but a combatant death or that they could just let political considerations take precedence.

[paigow]

32 minutes ago, kay1864 said:

 I still don’t see how the military, or a Senator, can choose not to give him a court-martial.

MCU does not recognize any CBS jurisdiction from JAG or NCIS: Riga

[kay1864]

54 minutes ago, paigow said:

MCU does not recognize any CBS jurisdiction from JAG or NCIS: Riga

 

[paigow]

Giving Jack Bauer the serum would be pointless, probably make him weaker...

Edited April 19, 2021 by paigow

[Smad]

6 hours ago, Ailianna said:

I would have hated the idea of Sharon playing mommy to Sam and Bucky

I would have hated that too but I wouldn't have been surprised if it happened considering that Gamora and Black Widow were the mother figures in their respective teams so MCU has a track record for that demeaning nonsense.

 

This show suffers from the same problem with it's 'villains' that WandaVision did. FlagSmashers and GRC are as ill defined as SWORD and Agatha. The main problem here is that Marvel should have done a whole series or a movie in between IW/Endgame to show us the world during those 5 years. But they seem to be determined to be as vague about it as they can which is a major mistake IMO.

[Spartan Girl]

31 minutes ago, Smad said:

7 hours ago, Ailianna said:

I would have hated the idea of Sharon playing mommy to Sam and Bucky

I would have hated that too but I wouldn't have been surprised if it happened considering that Gamora and Black Widow were the mother figures in their respective teams so MCU has a track record for that demeaning nonsense.

The show turning her into a villain (if that’s really what they’re doing) would be just as demeaning because it would invalidate her legitimate anger at Steve and the Avengers for not clearing her name or checking up on her post Civil War into the Scorned Woman trope.

Maybe I chose the wrong phrase in my original post, but my point is I would have liked to be an actual member of the Bucky and Sam team instead of what the writers gave us. Of course there's still one episode left and anything could happen.

[bethy]

7 hours ago, Smad said:

I would have hated that too but I wouldn't have been surprised if it happened considering that Gamora and Black Widow were the mother figures in their respective teams so MCU has a track record for that demeaning nonsense.

I'm unclear on how being a mother figure is "demeaning nonsense." Both women were smart, physically capable, valued members of their teams. Where were they demeaned by also being portrayed as compassionate and supportive? I'm assuming that's what is meant by mothering behavior, at least. 

ETA: I'm taking this to the MCU thread.

Edited April 19, 2021 by bethy
Wrong thread

[magdalene]

On 4/17/2021 at 12:18 PM, ursula said:

 

Different take here... I don't think it matters that Nico wasn't the hand that pulled the trigger, in the metaphorical sense. All the Flag Smashers wanted to kill Walker, and they used Lemar as bait. That Nico wasn't the specific person that murdered Lemar is inconsequential. All the Flag Smashers are guilty of Lemar's death.

Exactly.  Isn't that even a legal standard? Like if you are a crew robbing a bank and one of you   kills a customer or a bank teller while robbing the bank the whole crew may be charged with murder, not just the one who pulled the trigger.

Look at the force with which Karli killed poor Lemar.  He had no chance.  That was no accident as claimed by the Karli apologists.  I know that character looks like an innocent little snowflake but she crossed the line to terrorist and killer a while ago.

To me it looked like most of Lemars family believed Walker, or wanted to believe their son's murderer was punished.

Edited April 18, 2021 by magdalene

[oliverwendell]

12 minutes ago, magdalene said:

Exactly.  Isn't that even a legal standard? Like if you are a crew robbing a bank and one of you   kills a customer or a bank teller while robbing the bank the whole crew may be charged with murder, not just the one who pulled the trigger.

Look at the force with which Karli killed poor Lemar.  He had no chance.  That was no accident as claimed by the Karli apologists.  I know that character looks like an innocent little snowflake but she crossed the line to terrorist and killer a while ago.

I thought it was interesting that Walker pulled the exact same move on Bucky that Karli pulled on Lemar, throwing him all the way across the room and into a pillar. Bucky has the super soldier serum, so it didn't kill him, but it's just one more thing that shows Walker has lost whatever moral high ground he had.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

3 minutes ago, magdalene said:

Exactly.  Isn't that even a legal standard? Like if you are a crew robbing a bank and one of you   kills a customer or a bank teller while robbing the bank the whole crew may be charged with murder, not just the one who pulled the trigger.

Look at the force with which Karli killed poor Lemar.  He had no chance.  That was no accident as claimed by the Karli apologists.  I know that character looks like an innocent little snowflake but she crossed the line to terrorist and killer a while ago.

Not for nothing, but there are people defending Walker just as vigorously for concaving Niko's chest when he was A) unarmed, B) running away, and C) either trying to surrender or asking for mercy or both. What standard are we using to decide that it's totally acceptable for Captain America to be judge, jury and executioner because his friend was killed? The one that says vigilantism is bad unless an American icon is doing it? The one that says it would have been fine for Bucky to be killed in Siberia because Tony watched the tape of his parents being murdered? "He just snapped!" Uh huh. Not like he'd been tweaking all damn episode, or feeling humiliated because he got in a fight with non-powered Ayo and she didn't even leave a mark on him. There are also people calling the Dora Milaje arrogant and too aggressive because John got his little feelings hurt, even though he was being condescending and presumptuous in not even knowing (or caring) that they are elite warriors who had a legitimate issue with Zemo. If that's not apologia, I don't know what the word means.

Karli, for all that she's a terrible person, is only worse than Walker in the sense that her government didn't hand her an object rich in history and say, "You're our hero and we're really proud of you." Her violence was never sanctioned, and the only reason the government stepped in at all is because they fucked up in the first place and were embarrassed. If the incident hadn't gone viral, who knows if anything at all would have happened, and John is still lying about what really happened. Even if he's delusional enough at this point to believe that only Niko was responsible and he meted out justice, Lemar's sister looked very suspicious even as he was talking to her parents.

[ursula]

14 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Not for nothing, but there are people defending Walker just as vigorously for concaving Niko's chest when he was A) unarmed, B) running away, and C) either trying to surrender or asking for mercy or both.

The optics are bad. Some guy squealing for mercy as Captain America rams his shield in his chest. But Niko was far from the innocent, defenceless victim that he tried to pass himself off in his last moments of life. He was a super-soldier. He was never unarmed. He ran away because what he planned as an easy assassination went side ways when their intended victim ended up being just as powerful as they were. He wants to surrender, he's asking for mercy? Where was his mercy for Lemar, or even Walker? 

Quote

What standard are we using to decide that it's totally acceptable for Captain America to be judge, jury and executioner because his friend was killed? 

There was definitely a better way. But if the show wanted me to think that Walker was a monster because he killed someone that caused his friend's death, something that happened because Niko was willing to kill him (Walker) and chickened out when he realised that Walker had levelled the playing field... then the show failed. 

 

Walker didn't do the right thing. But he did something that was too understandable, sympathetic even, for me to condemn him for it. 

[magdalene]

I am sorry Cobalt Stargazer I was trying to reply  toand quoting your excellent post but somehow my reply got eaten and only the quote posted.

I was trying to say that I don't condone what Walker did but the show and the actor have done a good job showing us why Walker ended up rage killing Niko. 

I do think there is a difference between Walker killing Niko and Niko and Carli being terrorists who have killed innocent people in cold blood for their cause.

 

[wanderingstar]

I like seeing Carl Lumbly in this show. The scene between Isaiah and Sam was the best part of this episode.

Bucky flirting with Sarah was fun, though Sam clearly didn't think so.

Edited April 19, 2021 by Gillian Rosh

[paigow]

42 minutes ago, magdalene said:

I do think there is a difference between Walker killing Niko and Niko and Carli being terrorists who have killed innocent people in cold blood for their cause.

Jumping networks again, HBO Perry Mason probably could get Zemo acquitted if Cap had killed Stark, but not for killing the shrink or all the people at the U.N. meeting in Austria. Karli moved up to felony murder by blowing up those GRC dudes after stealing the supplies. Her crew would be- at the least- accessories. 

Edited April 19, 2021 by paigow

[Kel Varnsen]

38 minutes ago, Gillian Rosh said:

I like seeing Carl Lumbly in this show. The scene between Isaiah and Sam was the best part of this episode.

Carl Lumbly is pretty great. At first I wondered why they cast someone so young to play Isaiah when the character is probably in his 90's. Then I looked it up and was shocked to find out that Carl Lumbly is nearly 70 so not that young.

[Cthulhudrew]

On 4/17/2021 at 7:41 AM, Sakura12 said:

So is Elaine the powerbroker or working for the powerbroker?

All I know is that purple/pink streak in her hair makes her look more like Victoria Hand than the Contessa (who traditionally has a white streak). 

Just saying.

Edited April 19, 2021 by Cthulhudrew

[Guest]

6 hours ago, ursula said:

The optics are bad. Some guy squealing for mercy as Captain America rams his shield in his chest. But Niko was far from the innocent, defenceless victim that he tried to pass himself off in his last moments of life. He was a super-soldier. He was never unarmed. He ran away because what he planned as an easy assassination went side ways when their intended victim ended up being just as powerful as they were. He wants to surrender, he's asking for mercy? Where was his mercy for Lemar, or even Walker? 

People who are given authority like cops and the military are held to a higher standard than everyone else. They have to have mercy and enough control to not take vengeance or use unnecessary force. Those that can’t do not belong on that job. 

6 hours ago, ursula said:

There was definitely a better way. But if the show wanted me to think that Walker was a monster because he killed someone that caused his friend's death, something that happened because Niko was willing to kill him (Walker) and chickened out when he realised that Walker had levelled the playing field... then the show failed. 

I thought the show did an amazing job of creating a complex situation that mirrors real life despite the fantasy aspects. I feel like that was the goal and the reactions have been remarkable accurate. 

[swanpride]

7 hours ago, ursula said:

The optics are bad.

It's not the optics which are bad, it's Walker's actions. This guy could have been Hannibal Lektor, that doesn't give Walker the right to just kill him. Btw, Thor didn't have the right to just kill Thanos either, but for one, Thor operates under different rules, being an alien an all, and two Thanos was just too dangerous to live. Still, there is a REASON the other avengers are so shocked about Thor's actions, even if they are understandable in this very, very specific context. But in Walker's case, we are talking about him killing someone, who could have been easily detained and put on trial. And that is before we even get to the fact that Walker has no jurisdiction whatsoever in Latvia. 

[vb68]

On 4/17/2021 at 6:27 PM, wmdekooning said:

I was thinking as Bucky walked away  they ought to have played the sad "Bruce Banner tinkly piano as he walks to the next town for adventures" theme...

 

Yes! That's exactly what I thought of as Bucky said his goodbye to Sam and started walking away. I thought that visual was sorta an indirect callback to the Incredible Hulk tv series from the late 70s for old nerds like me who would remember that.

I have to admit I was thinking, "Gee Sam, it's really too much trouble offer your new bestie a lift to the airport?"  Sure Bucky is likely to say no, he's good. "Long walks is what I do." But after all the help with the boat and bro bonding, you insist and drive him." I'm sure Sarah would have offered to drive him. Lol

On 4/17/2021 at 6:41 PM, kay1864 said:

How does a civilian Senator get to decide that a military officer doesn’t get a court martial? And how does that officer even evade court-martial for murder? No Captain America gets to be judge, jury, and executioner.

That senator has been set up as the point person for everything about the decision for Walker to be the dollar store, fake Cap since the first episode. He thanked Sam for turning over The Shield (secretly rubbing his shady hands with glee) and personally introduced Walker as the new Cap. I have no idea why he has such outsized influence. (I guess he's probably the chairman of whatever the relevant committee is?) But it came across to me like he was the one who pushed Walker for this more than anyone, so he would be the one besides Walker who got the most heat from the brutal murder and fallout.    

Quote

 I don't even think anyone outside of Bucky and Sam know that he took the last vial of serum, since now that Zemo's out of the picture that plot line seems to have been resolved.

Well Countess Val and her purple streak knew, and she rather pointedly told him that taking the serum made him very valuable to "certain people". So it sounds like the info is out there, wherever "certain people" discuss wanting an angry, disgraced super soldier as a puppet. I definitely got the impression she was jumping the line to get there first.  

Edited April 19, 2021 by vb68

[Ohiopirate02]

17 hours ago, Smad said:

 

This show suffers from the same problem with it's 'villains' that WandaVision did. FlagSmashers and GRC are as ill defined as SWORD and Agatha. The main problem here is that Marvel should have done a whole series or a movie in between IW/Endgame to show us the world during those 5 years. But they seem to be determined to be as vague about it as they can which is a major mistake IMO.

For me, the show has done enough with the GRC and the Flag Smashers.  I know the aims of each group, and can see some parallels between each and things that have happened in the 20th century. For example, the United States did mass deportations of Hispanics out west back in the 30s.  These were people who were invited into states like California in the previous decade who as soon as the Depression happened TPTB decided we don't need these people anymore.  And the GRC reads a lot like what the Brits did to Palestine after WWII.  The Flag Smashers are giving me IRA vibes--people who have legitimate complaints who have chosen to resort to violence in order to achieve their goals.  The only thing missing from the show is the GRC being just as bad as the Flag Smashers.

I think it depends upon how much you know about these things to be satisfied with what we have seen.  

[benteen]

Best episode yet.  It did a great job putting the focus on Sam and Bucky.  It's great to see Sam finally training for his role as Captain America.  Excellent performances by Sebastian Stan, Anthony Mackie, Wyatt Russell, Carl Lumbly and Daniel Bruhl.  

Definitely did not know Julia Louis-Dreyfuss would be popping up in this series.

[Vanderboom]

On 4/16/2021 at 9:34 PM, calliope1975 said:

In gif form

 

And just for fun, because I was appreciating the Wakanda arm upgrade during the boat scenes. (I was appreciating a lot of Sam and Bucky this episode.)

This was my favorite scene in Civil War just because of Sam's admonishment that "there [shouldn't be] this much talking" during a fight.

 

On 4/17/2021 at 12:11 AM, Afwife1992 said:

The mantle *should* be held by those who know suffering or discrimination.

I think this series is doing a good job of making that argument. I felt as if the MCU moved away from this theme after the first Captain America movie. It's as if they got so caught up in Steve Roger's goodness and worthiness that they skimmed over what made him good and worthy. Sam, as a counselor and soldier, hits many of the same notes, with the added factor of America's attitude toward race. I'd argue that Sam has additional burdens with fewer resources (no serum, cultural discrimination, a "rival" Captain America, a more broken world, etc) yet he bravely goes into this with both eyes open.

[paigow]

6 hours ago, swanpride said:

Thor didn't have the right to just kill Thanos either, but for one, Thor operates under different rules, being an alien an all, and two Thanos was just too dangerous to live. Still, there is a REASON the other avengers are so shocked about Thor's actions, even if they are understandable in this very, very specific context. But in Walker's case, we are talking about him killing someone, who could have been easily detained and put on trial.

The cases are almost identical. Thanos was no longer a threat at that point. Putting him on trial would take centuries because his crimes were against the Universe, not just Earth, But only the scale of his crime differentiates him from Nico.

[tv echo]

As previously noted....

Wyatt Russell as John Walker at his hearing in this episode:

(pic source)

Kurt Russell as Jack O'Neill in the 1994 film, Stargate:  

(pic source)

Edited April 19, 2021 by tv echo

[benteen]

I have no sympathy for Nico.  He wasn't as bad as Karli but he still went along with her after she bombed that building.  He was a terrorist and an accessory to murder while Karli is a terrorist and a murderer.

[TV Diva Queen]

I am so new to the Marvel Universe (well, not that new but nothing compared to you all)  that I'm embarrassed reading this thread knowing that I'm missing so much.  Ugh. 

So that silver box that Sam opened at the end was his new wings or the new Captain uniform?  and it came from Wakanda right?  

Edited April 19, 2021 by TV Diva Queen

[Chicago Redshirt]

6 minutes ago, TV Diva Queen said:

I am so new to the Marvel Universe (well, not that new but nothing compared to you all)  that I'm embarrassed reading this thread knowing that I'm missing so much.  Ugh. 

So that silver box that Sam opened at the end was his new wings or the new Captain uniform?  and it came from Wakanda right?  

No worries about missing things! As long as you're having fun.

And yes, the box is from Wakanda.

It almost certainly is a Captain America uniform that includes a new set of wings. But we'll presumably see that borne out (or rejected) in the finale.

[Kel Varnsen]

6 hours ago, tv echo said:

As previously noted....

Wyatt Russell as John Walker at his hearing in this episode:

(pic source)

Kurt Russell as Jack O'Neill in the 1994 film, Stargate:  

(pic source)

Is this the first case of parent and child both appearing in the MCU?

[TV Diva Queen]

31 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

No worries about missing things! As long as you're having fun.

And yes, the box is from Wakanda.

It almost certainly is a Captain America uniform that includes a new set of wings. But we'll presumably see that borne out (or rejected) in the finale.

awww that's so nice of you.  I've seen all the movies but tend not to retain details.  I'm in the moment with those movies and I love the shit out of them.....

[catrice2]

The man said his serum was more refined (and that was his opinion, no evidence)and would not require equipment. No where have I heard it necessarily makes people stronger than Steve or Bucky unless I missed something?

[blackwing]

I laughed when Sam asked Bucky why he didn't just use his arm, and Bucky responded "I'm right handed".  I would have thought by now he would get used to using his left.  That made me wonder why in all the fight sequences he is often using his right hand or his feet which are not enhanced.

It seems obvious that Bucky and Sarah are going to get together.  Maybe they already have!

33 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Is this the first case of parent and child both appearing in the MCU?

I think it depends on what you think qualifies, whether the role has to be a "major" role or not or whether the actors have to be "name" actors or not.  Because I believe the actor who played T'Chaka in "Black Panther", his real-life son portrayed the younger T'Chaka in the flashback.

As far as other familial relations both being in the MCU... Paul Bettany is the Vision as well the voice of Jarvis.  And Jennifer Connelly was the voice of Peter's Stark-designed suit (he called her "Suit Lady") in Spider-Man: Homecoming.  (She was also in the Eric Bana Hulk which isn't considered part of the MCU.)

 

[tv echo]

FYI...

The Falcon and The Winter Soldier: Episode 5 Intel Report
BY CHRISTINE DINH    April 19, 2021
https://www.marvel.com/articles/tv-shows/falcon-winter-soldier-disney-plus-episode-5-intel-report-recap

Edited April 19, 2021 by tv echo

[Cthulhudrew]

5 hours ago, TV Diva Queen said:

So that silver box that Sam opened at the end was his new wings or the new Captain uniform?  and it came from Wakanda right?  

I suspect one from column A and one from Column B.

I'm hoping the wings will be made of "hard-light" like the ones he had for a period of time in the comics that came from Wakanda.

[paigow]

4 hours ago, catrice2 said:

The man said his serum was more refined (and that was his opinion, no evidence)and would not require equipment. No where have I heard it necessarily makes people stronger than Steve or Bucky unless I missed something?

The serum gives super strength without major growth in bone and muscle. Steve Rogers added at least 100 lbs of body mass. 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

4 hours ago, paigow said:

The serum gives super strength without major growth in bone and muscle. Steve Rogers added at least 100 lbs of body mass. 

I would think that non-sickly candidates wouldn't gain body mass, with or without the refinements of the new serum. Given Steve's list of illnesses and ailments at the time Erskine chose him, it might have been a case of his body finally catching up to what it could have been if he didn't have so many health issues. Healthy recipients like Bucky, Karli and John wouldn't have those physical impairments.

[swanpride]

The fact that Steve was the only one who didn't get a knock off version might also play a role, but yeah, the serum is designed to turn you "peak human". It would do little for someone like Walker who is already pretty close to peak human physically, other than giving him a better healing factor.  (And this episode played that aspect down a little bit by showing him scratched up with his arm in a sling...but maybe he was using the sling partly to hide what he did. Doesn't explain the not-healed scratches, though. 

[Abra]

20 hours ago, swanpride said:

Doesn't explain the not-healed scratches, though. 

Maybe it's because he was fighting Bucky, someone else with the serum. At the end of The Winter Soldier, Steve ended up in the hospital after their fight. Those kind of hits probably just take a little longer to heal.

Time for my bullet points reaction post:

• I would not have walked off at the end of the opening fight if I were Bucky. Like Walker is right there next to Sam, he could go apeshit again with some serum surge or whatever.
   
• Torres I love you. We see you fixing those wings when you get home.
   
• Honestly, I don't hate John Walker, I feel for this guy. They did make him, not just the super special Captain America deciding council, but the military. This is what they do to their soldiers, they reel them in with propaganda (and/or money), use them as tools in war, and then discard them when the results of the trauma that they refuse to treat make them look bad to the public. And then they took away his benefits so he can't afford therapy.
   
• Okay, JLD was too...much. It's another scene where the humor just felt wrong in the moment. Not a fan. (My guess had been someone on the Denzel level for a cameo, but she's fine, I guess. And not a cameo, probably?)
   
• It is just like Zemo to El Chapo himself only to go visit the Sokovia memorial to then get caught.
   
• Bucky is such a little shit to "Hey!" Ayo, oh my god. And then to ask a favor...I have to think part of it is that Ayo has to like Sam (who doesn't?) for what the favor has no doubt turned out to be.
   
• It's probably just a throwaway part of Isaiah's story, but I'm really curious about the nurse who forged papers and had him declared dead. Like, that's a whole ass process to do that, plus she had access to the letters his wife sent that they were keeping from him? I feel like she had to have had some level of importance. Or not, and had to get the hell out herself after he did. (And how did that escape even happen?). And then at what point did Isaiah go to his family after escaping? If we're going to assume that Eli is his biological grandson, I'd think whoever was keeping him prisoner would first go looking to see if he went back to his family. The nurse can't have convinced everyone that he had died with some forged papers.
   
• Sam has his nephews as the wallpaper on his phone <3
   
• I love seeing scenes of a community coming together to help each other out. I live in an area with a lot of people who transition in and out (and moved around myself as a kid), so it's nice to see that really is a thing. Warm fuzzies.
   
• Sam has to sign for his Falcon!Cap suit like Bucky works for FedEx? Heh.
   
• I think John told Lemar's family that Nico is the one who killed him so that they could have immediate peace (in that regard). I don't think he wanted them to suffer any more than they already were. I can't tell if Lemar's sister doesn't buy it, or if the actress just isn't very good (suspect it's the latter).
   
• Sharon's not a bad guy. She's got Batroc there to sabotage the Flag Smashers, or at least prevent deaths, is my guess.
   
• Saying that Steve is "gone" instead of dead is a way for Feige et. al. to leave the door open to future Steve, or they already have planned exactly how we're going to find out what happened to him (I doubt in the last episode, however).
   
• Yay Sarah's keeping the boat!
   
• Oh I just like Karli less and less. Dovich hasn't completely lost it, yet (I won't forget that as far as we know, he was okay with murdering Walker). I wonder if he'll turn on her in the next episode.
   
• Most of the people standing up and converging on the same spot in Bryant Park isn't suspicious at all, way to be stealthy guys.
   
• So it feels like it would be too much, but could Torres show up in New York next episode wearing the wings? Like he shows up with them because he knows Sam is going, and when Sam is all good with the shield and what has to be a Wakandan cap suit (no spoilers, I just act like I know what's going on), so he puts on the wings himself to help?
   
• Uh yes you do need a vote, Senator Dickweed! I do not like you sir.
   
• One World, One People spoken like Hail Hydra, that's just great.
   
• Ah, Mackie played that last scene so well without a word spoken.

[Chicago Redshirt]

One thing that I don't think people commented on previously (or if I missed it, apologies, but it deserves being said again):

Isaiah's backstory about some of his colleagues being captured and the Army writing them off is a parallel to what happened in Cap: The First Avenger. (except even worse because instead of just writing them off, the Army was getting ready to kill them). 

Steve and Isaiah both went rogue and both launched a successful rescue mission. But instead of fame and flirtation, Isaiah got screwed over. imprisoned,, experimented on, etc.

[MochaJay]

32 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

One thing that I don't think people commented on previously (or if I missed it, apologies, but it deserves being said again):

Isaiah's backstory about some of his colleagues being captured and the Army writing them off is a parallel to what happened in Cap: The First Avenger. (except even worse because instead of just writing them off, the Army was getting ready to kill them). 

Steve and Isaiah both went rogue and both launched a successful rescue mission. But instead of fame and flirtation, Isaiah got screwed over. imprisoned,, experimented on, etc.

I've been thinking on this, and though I think the parallel is important, the roots of the difference also go back further to the original ethics.

Erskine's experiment was a wartime secret, but all volunteer, nobody was doing anything of which they were ashamed. When Erskine was killed they made Steve a propoganda figure, so when he rocked up at militarily camp with a few hundred freed POWs and a photographer started taking photos, the military rewarded him in part to control the narrative.

Isaiah and his comrades where subjected to unethical experimentation, down to not even knowing what they were being given. There was always going to be a cover-up, especially as most of the subjects died. Isaiah going AWOL to rescue the POWs wasn't the reason he was imprisoned - it was the excuse.

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 hours ago, MochaJay said:

I've been thinking on this, and though I think the parallel is important, the roots of the difference also go back further to the original ethics.

Erskine's experiment was a wartime secret, but all volunteer, nobody was doing anything of which they were ashamed. When Erskine was killed they made Steve a propoganda figure, so when he rocked up at militarily camp with a few hundred freed POWs and a photographer started taking photos, the military rewarded him in part to control the narrative.

Isaiah and his comrades where subjected to unethical experimentation, down to not even knowing what they were being given. There was always going to be a cover-up, especially as most of the subjects died. Isaiah going AWOL to rescue the POWs wasn't the reason he was imprisoned - it was the excuse.

Very true.

I wish Marvel would make a one-shot or an animated movie/mini-series -- something -- showing Isaiah in his prime. We already have quite a few plot points that seem like they would be interesting to flesh out -- his origin, his fight with Bucky, his rescue of his fellow POWs, his being framed, the experiments and ultimately his escape. Animated movies are one of the places where Marvel has traditionally been behind DC, and this might be a good place to try to catch up. 

[Kel Varnsen]

2 hours ago, MochaJay said:

I've been thinking on this, and though I think the parallel is important, the roots of the difference also go back further to the original ethics.

Erskine's experiment was a wartime secret, but all volunteer, nobody was doing anything of which they were ashamed. When Erskine was killed they made Steve a propoganda figure, so when he rocked up at militarily camp with a few hundred freed POWs and a photographer started taking photos, the military rewarded him in part to control the narrative.

Isaiah and his comrades where subjected to unethical experimentation, down to not even knowing what they were being given. There was always going to be a cover-up, especially as most of the subjects died. Isaiah going AWOL to rescue the POWs wasn't the reason he was imprisoned - it was the excuse.

On a much more simple level too, Steve Rogers was the hero of World War II, which was a true battle between good and evil, the war everyone knows about that led to countless movies and other such things. Isaiah was the hero of the Korean War, a war that by comparison was kind of forgotten. The only pop culture stuff I know about that war is Mad Men and MASH.

[Perfect Xero]

On 4/17/2021 at 3:18 PM, ursula said:

Different take here... I don't think it matters that Nico wasn't the hand that pulled the trigger, in the metaphorical sense. All the Flag Smashers wanted to kill Walker, and they used Lemar as bait. That Nico wasn't the specific person that murdered Lemar is inconsequential. All the Flag Smashers are guilty of Lemar's death.

I agree, and am honestly confused that the show doesn't seem to be aware of the reality of the things they actually showed on screen last week,

Walker was clearly wrong for continuing his attack once Nico was unconscious, but that would have been just as true if Karli was the one he caught.

Nico, did kill Lemar though, just as much as Karli did. John shouldn't be portrayed as lying/wrong/delusional when he says the man who was part of a murder plot that resulted in a death is responsible for that death. The Flag Smashers weren't stealing supplies and using nonlethal restraints when Karli went rogue on them this time.

[paigow]

5 hours ago, Perfect Xero said:

Nico, did kill Lemar though, just as much as Karli did. John shouldn't be portrayed as lying/wrong/delusional when he says the man who was part of a murder plot that resulted in a death is responsible for that death.

Walker: I would never let the person who did that get away.

Walker failed his Law & Order conspiracy training modules at boot camp...

He should be promising the Hoskins family to kill all the Flag Smashers... 

[swanpride]

I guess we have a different understanding of this matter. It does make a difference if you are the one pulling the trigger or the one standing beside the person. Also, Walker doesn't say "he was guilty because he was part of the group who did the killing", he claims that this guy killed Lemar. Exactly because he knows that most people would judge the situation differently if they knew that Lemar was killed during a fight with someone else. 

[Perfect Xero]

8 hours ago, swanpride said:

I guess we have a different understanding of this matter. It does make a difference if you are the one pulling the trigger or the one standing beside the person. Also, Walker doesn't say "he was guilty because he was part of the group who did the killing", he claims that this guy killed Lemar. Exactly because he knows that most people would judge the situation differently if they knew that Lemar was killed during a fight with someone else. 

There's a huge difference between standing beside someone who commits a crime you couldn't have foreseen as a probable outcome of your actions and what Nico and the Flag Smashers were doing.

If Lemar hadn't got back in time and Karli had succeeded in killing Walker, would the rest of the Flag Smashers be innocent of murder because they were just standing there when Karli killed him? Would Sam and Bucky be saying: "Well I guess that Karli is a bad egg after all, but poor Nico here should be free to go, he was just holding John's arms when Karli killed him. Is that even a crime?"

The Flag Smashers weren't walking down the street to go see a movie when Karli randomly killed Lemar, they were engaged in attempting to lure a man into a 7 on 1 fight and murder that man as a group. They were armed with knives, their intent is very clear. Karli killed the friend of their target because he jumped in to literally save the life of his friend from the Flag Smashers's attempting to murder him. If Nico isn't trying to kill Walker then Lemar doesn't die. Therefore Nico is responsible for the murder of Lemar just as much as Karli. If you commit a crime as a group, everyone in that group is responsible for the consequences.

The intent of the show is pretty clearly that John is lying or delusional since Bucky and Sam disagree with him, but that doesn't support the reality of what they showed Nico and the Flag Smashers doing. Lemar was not murdered by one person, he was murdered by all the Flag Smashers because they were acting as a group.