S01.E01: New World Order

[Abra]

49 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I think it's perfectly logical to believe that they have just dressed up a nobody to play a role, and he can't actually do anything or save anyone.  Maybe I'll be proven wrong later, but that's what I thought at first.  Once Sam turned in Steve's shield, they were able to just give it to an actor that is going to try to be a moral boost, but he's really just like a figurehead.

Based on one or two articles I probably skimmed, I was under the impression that he

Spoiler

is/was a member of the military. So he's like Sam in that respect - military/former military, not enhanced, not an actor.

Now why he thinks he's cool to carry the shield and be called Captain America and not Sam? He's got some explaining to do. 

52 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

It's also only been a few months (2 months?) since the snap and Tony died, right? There's no way anyone recreated Steve in only 2 months; they had to have been working on it for years prior to these events, and I feel like that would have been mentioned in a movie if so.

It's been 6 months. But if it does turn out the US government has been working on their own version of Steve's serum, I agree they've been working on it for a long time. I don't feel like it would have been mentioned in previous MCU outings, however.

[bethy]

4 hours ago, RollTheHardSix said:

There has to be some type of independent thought/personality to function independently if needed. You cannot plan for every contingency - the protocol cannot contain every possible scenario and he still needs to make some decisions independently and on the fly if needed. I would imagine that a lot can go wrong during high-stakes missions and he would have to react to that on his own.

I think this can also account for the pause - the WS weighing his options given that something did go wrong on the op. There was a witness.

[blackwing]

Liked the show, these are familiar characters and we got to see more of their lives when they aren't in battle as Avengers.  Sam's story sounds like a common one... I have no idea how he didn't qualify for a loan, particularly since banks should be used to dealing with people coming back from The Blip.  As an Avenger, he would have to get some kind of salary.  Some Stark fund or government fund has to be paying for his housing, food, and giving him some kind of salary.  That same fund has to be responsible for maintaining his suit and Redwing and all the technology etc needed.

Liked Bucky's story as well.  He mentioned that he is 102 years old, but that includes the 70+ years he was frozen, the time he was under in Wakanda, and the 5 years of the blip.  

Is this series supposed to be taking place just after Endgame?  Is Steve actually dead or does the general public just assume he died?  Was there an explanation to the public of what happened to him?  He decided to return to the 40s to live life with Peggy, then we see him as an old man giving over the shield.  Does the Super Soldier serum slow down his aging?  I think it might?  I know Natasha has some version of the serum in her (I recall some comic from years ago where Cap, Widow and Wolverine were fighting together and I thought it mentioned they were all about the same age).  Because if his aging didn't get slowed down then I think he would have been about 97 in that last scene in Endgame?

The new Captain America... did they purposely give him a mask that made his face look very squashed, and his jaw look very square and wide?  Was the actor told to make his lips as thin as possible?  Just not a good look at all.  I wonder if in the MCU/this series the guy is going to be enhanced with some sort of strength formula, if he's actually supposed to be Cap and fight crime or if he's just a symbol, like a guy who puts on a suit and walks around town for appearances.

9 hours ago, Butless said:

I was less enthused with Bucky's date. The actor playing Bucky looks his age (38), actually even older.  But he's lusting after someone 10 years younger (who looks younger than her age)?  Ok, I thought we were moving away from these kinds of gross portrayals, as if  there could be no attractive women his age that could also have worked at a sushi restaurant that he frequented?

Everything about that date was weird.  Bucky had so many red flags... in the real world, this is how you get murdered. By locking yourself in a small room with a stranger who: lied about his age (only we and he knows he didn't); always wears gloves -like a strangler;  has a smile that looks like he's being stabbed and a penetrating stare; and claims to have "poor circulation" (screams erectile dysfunction). She should count herself lucky he just (rudely) split on her.

She should not come back, but I bet she does somehow, as part of his redemption arc; possibly along with Yori. I don't even understand wtf Bucky is doing befriending the father of one of his victims. There is no restitution that can be made for taking a life. It also is cruel to tell the old man that his son was murdered, so I hope there's no going there.  Bucky's got a list of these victims, so is his plan just to befriend all of their next of kin? That's creepy, voyeuristic and invasive. Boundaries, Bucky; observe them.  That should be his Rule #4.

Perhaps I have completely misinterpreted Bucky's story, but I don't think he was just starting to befriend Yori? It seemed they had been friends for some time before this series started.  Bucky watches out for him, tells him not to get into arguments with neighbors, much like a grandson taking care of his eldrely grandfather.  They regularly meet for lunch or dinner.  I thought Bucky didn't seem to make the connection that the Yori's son was one of his victims until we saw it in the episode.  That's why he suddenly got up and left the restaurant.  I do think that was kind of weird and he didn't even apologise to her.

I also don't think he was lusting after the waitress and I think you might be reading too much into that.  It's not like the two of them were complete strangers.  I thought the restaurant was their regular lunch spot.  The waitress clearly knows Yori well (she referred to him by name and talked to Bucky about him) and I get the sense that she knows who Bucky is even if she doesn't "know" know him.  He's a regular at her restaurant.

And he clearly had to be coerced onto the date.  Yori was playing matchmaker using his "I'm an old man who just wants to see his friend happy" card, Bucky was embarrassed, and the waitress said she was open to the idea.  We know that he has nightmares about the time he was brainwashed and we know he was a cold blooded killer, but from her perspective, he is a regular customer, vaguely attractive, unattached, and friends with someone that she clearly has endearing feelings towards.  

[FnkyChkn34]

1 hour ago, blackwing said:

Perhaps I have completely misinterpreted Bucky's story, but I don't think he was just starting to befriend Yori? It seemed they had been friends for some time before this series started.  Bucky watches out for him, tells him not to get into arguments with neighbors, much like a grandson taking care of his eldrely grandfather.  They regularly meet for lunch or dinner.  I thought Bucky didn't seem to make the connection that the Yori's son was one of his victims until we saw it in the episode.  That's why he suddenly got up and left the restaurant.  I do think that was kind of weird and he didn't even apologise to her.

I can see why you thought that, but I interpreted this storyline differently...  I thought that Bucky knew all along who he was befriending, and it was only for the benefit of the audience that we got to see Yori's son's name in Bucky's book, so that we, the audience, now knew too.  It was at the top of the list so it made sense to me that he started there, and that's why they'd already been friends for awhile.  I thought he ran out on his date because he couldn't bear to hear her talk about what he'd done - what he knew he did but what no one else knows he did.  

Now I'm curious which one of us is correct! 🙂  

[shoetingstar]

About the flowers and the waitress (I think I have a fanfic title already lol). Did she own the bar or was maybe the manager? Was she Izzy?

Also:

7 hours ago, RollTheHardSix said:

Overall, it was a nice set-up episode for me.

Bartender girl - I didn't mind her so much. Thinking about it now, I would think the flowers were a bit much. I would've considered that a super-casual date at her workplace which was jokingly set up by someone else - no need for flowers. But hey, it always kinda depends on who brings them, theoretically it's a nice gesture but very unusual. I've never even heard of the games he/the old guy were proposing, so I was guessing that they were old-people-games. To be honest, I didn't really even think about the age gap between them, it didn't seem gross to me - visually. However, I have difficulties guessing people's ages unless it's totally obvious - which it wasn't to me here.

 

7 hours ago, swanpride said:

Regarding the flowers: Bringing them to a first date is not only old fashioned, it isn't necessarily considered a nice gesture anymore. Might be different in the US, but from the perspective of a German women, "first dates" are usual very casual affairs, where both participants pay for themselves, and nothing is expected. Bringing flowers to such an occasion put pressure on the women that she has to do something in return. Hence flowers are cute if you already know each other longer (like: We have our first months anniversary or something like that) or a special occasion, or as a casual present when you are already meeting each other for a while in a "I just thought you might like them" way, but they are usually not a feature of the first date for the above mentioned reason (unless it is a "he takes her out to dinner affair" that would be different, but that's not what was shown in the show, where it was clearly a more casual date). But again, German perspective, I know that dating in the US works very different with all kind of (from a foreigner's perspective) weird rules.

1-I could see someone feeling flowers meant the person wanted something return. However, he had known her for some amount of time, but had not had the courage to as her out. It was not like they had just met that day. He and Yori went to the restaurant every Wednesday. They all seemed familiar enough with each other. 

2-I take the flowers to mean that he was marking the occasion. "I'm not just grabbing a meal where you serve me." Similar to acquaintances/friends deciding to go on a date, especially if you are usually in a group, etc. You do something different to make memories for just you two. Or a hey, I appreciate you spending time with me. Flower can mean many different things, depending on the person and type of flower. It was a nice gesture to me. 

3-I'm sure Yori advised him to do it! 😄 So age or generational-factors are in play here as well. I'm in my 40s and a date bringing flowers would be a nice gesture to me. I do agree, red roses on a first date with no history would not be as welcomed. Do guys (or persons) still bring their date a corsage for Prom? 

So technically the are "old fashioned" in the sense, opening doors for your date has become less utilized, or even know, by younger people in the online dating age. 

Now this conversation has been picturing Bucky figuring out what kind of flowers to get. Did he just know or did he do research online? lol I really need a day in the life tv series of Bucky making decisions in this modern world. 

10 hours ago, swanpride said:

AO3. It's an older series, which might explain why you missed it. But it is easily one of the "big" Bucky fics.

Thanks!

Edited March 22, 2021 by shoetingstar

[FnkyChkn34]

10 minutes ago, shoetingstar said:

3-I'm sure Yori advised him to do it! 😄 So age or generational-factors are in play here as well. I'm in my 40s and a date bringing flowers would be a nice gesture to me. I do agree, red roses on a first date with no history would not be as welcomed. Do guys (or persons) still bring their date a corsage for Prom? 

So technically the are "old fashioned" in the sense, opening doors for your date has become less utilized, or even know, by younger people in the online dating age. 

Now this conversation has been picturing Bucky figuring out what kind of flowers to get. Did he just know or did he do research online? lol I really need a day in the life tv series of Bucky making decisions in this modern world. 

Remember, Bucky is 106 years old, and he hasn't dated since the 1930s.  Back then, guys probably did bring their dates flowers on the first date.  Often, they were picking the girl up at her house, where her parents also live, so it was probably more of a sign of respect and a gift to the mother as much as anything else.  I'm not sure Yuri coached him or told him what to do; they appeared to live in a big city where there are probably flower stands on every corner.  It's not hard to grab a bouquet of mixed flowers, good for any occasion.  Bucky is old-fashioned because he is... old.  😉  But also remember that Bucky was a ladies' man in the 30s.  He had no trouble in that department; now he's absolutely a different person and completely unsure of himself.

[Bruinsfan]

I don't think the US military/govt. would have needed Steve's actual vibranium shield if this new Captain America were just going to be posing for pictures with it. My bet is on him being enhanced somehow, and a field operative that will try to put a popular face on whatever sketchy uses of force they think are called for in the post-Blip world.

[Butless]

7 hours ago, bethy said:

In hindsight I think the pause before killing the witness was for the audience. I was trying to figure out where we were time-wise during that scene until Bucky pulled the trigger and woke up. Like, was this a new mission he was working for the government except he was wearing the mask? There was tension for me when Bucky seemed to hesitate, knowing that present-Bucky wouldn’t shoot, but recognizing that WS-Buck likely would.

I forgot it was a dream sequence, because it had a lead in where the guy walks in and tells his coworkers he can't meet up with them... presumably this is something that WS did not witness, in reality, but dreamed. He could have french kissed him; anything goes in a dream. I guess I was taken aback at how nasty it was to make the  guy squirm, but he was probably just processing him, because he had befriended his father and was feeling all the guilt.

[Starry-Eyed]

6 minutes ago, Butless said:

I forgot it was a dream sequence, because it had a lead in where the guy walks in and tells his coworkers he can't meet up with them... presumably this is something that WS did not witness, in reality, but dreamed. He could have french kissed him; anything goes in a dream. I guess I was taken aback at how nasty it was to make the  guy squirm, but he was probably just processing him, because he had befriended his father and was feeling all the guilt.

I think it's one of those flashbacks that blurs the line between dream/not-dream. I would interpret everything we saw in the scene as a factually accurate depiction of what happened AND that Bucky woke up screaming remembering killing that guy. I wouldn't even necessarily say that Bucky's dream was the same as what we saw.

[Butless]

8 hours ago, Starry-Eyed said:

I think it's one of those flashbacks that blurs the line between dream/not-dream. I would interpret everything we saw in the scene as a factually accurate depiction of what happened AND that Bucky woke up screaming remembering killing that guy. I wouldn't even necessarily say that Bucky's dream was the same as what we saw.

Thats also true. Because writers write these scenes as flashbacks, and not dreams. When they do write them as dreams, there is usually something surreal in them, to let us know. In this case, it could have been him taking his time and making the man squirm, to accentuate and exaggerate the guilt he feels.  Except... him bursting through a wall sized painting. That totally could have not happened, and it was just some surreal bit of his dream.  But I don't buy that. I think it was too cool to be a dream, and written as what actually happened. And if thats real, then I'm taking him making an innocent bystander squirm as real, too.

If they follow this thing up with a redemption arc on him, I hope they don't do it on a false note. I actually hope that they don't give him a solid redemption, actually. Most of these superheroes are tortured about some things. 
Sam's an open book, but Bucky's more murky. He gives his therapist the pat answer that he's looking for "peace." Is he? Does he think that he'll find it by intruding into the lives of the survivors of his victims? Or is it to wallow in his guilt? As a selfpunishment?

If he readily teams up with Sam, it's probably the latter 😜

18 hours ago, paigow said:

The older women could be "attached", then he would be a "wrecking ball" / "cad"

I'm not sure what you mean? A younger woman could have easily been "attached," too. Age has nothing to do with it. 

[shoetingstar]

1 hour ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Remember, Bucky is 106 years old, and he hasn't dated since the 1930s.  Back then, guys probably did bring their dates flowers on the first date.  Often, they were picking the girl up at her house, where her parents also live, so it was probably more of a sign of respect and a gift to the mother as much as anything else.  I'm not sure Yuri coached him or told him what to do; they appeared to live in a big city where there are probably flower stands on every corner.  It's not hard to grab a bouquet of mixed flowers, good for any occasion.  Bucky is old-fashioned because he is... old.  😉  But also remember that Bucky was a ladies' man in the 30s.  He had no trouble in that department; now he's absolutely a different person and completely unsure of himself.

Agreed. However, Bucky IS rusty and I suspect he probably would not have asked her out on his own (His personal insecurity. Also, less baggage when he finally told Yori the truth.). Yori is like his cheerleader, his hype-man, reminding him who he used to be. It is just heartbreaking from every angle. Not as dramatic as his story, but as someone who was married for 9 years and now divorced, I actually relate a little. Dating was very different when I dipped my toe in the dating pool. Not to mention I had to figure out who I was or who I wanted to be. I had forgotten things about myself, and that was only 9 years, etc.

Dammit, Poor Bucky (sorry, I can't resist!)

(Either way, he could test his ladies man skills on me. Ahem.)

[FnkyChkn34]

2 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

I don't think the US military/govt. would have needed Steve's actual vibranium shield if this new Captain America were just going to be posing for pictures with it. My bet is on him being enhanced somehow, and a field operative that will try to put a popular face on whatever sketchy uses of force they think are called for in the post-Blip world.

I think they did need an Avenger to acknowledge that Steve is gone and produce his real shield.  Until Sam turned it over, they (the government and the general public) didn't know where it was.  I forget who mentioned it, but there are those conspiracy theories about where Steve went, like the moon.  So The Falcon brought it public, and made a big show about turning it over.  If the government tried to release the imposter before there was the shield, Sam (or Bucky or even Banner) could have produced the shield and said "hey, wait a minute..."  I think that they needed Sam's confirmation that Steve is gone before they could introduce faux-Steve.

[tv echo]

Here's a link to Marvel.com's recap of Episode 1...
https://www.marvel.com/articles/tv-shows/falcon-winter-soldier-episode-101-intel-report-recap

Marvel's recap also includes a full body pic of the new Captain America:
 

Edited March 22, 2021 by tv echo

[Chicago Redshirt]

I am assuming that Falcon never did sign the Sokovia Accords. Isn't his working for the U.S., particularly in sketchy mcsketherson ways as he was in the opening, a pretty blatant violation of them both by Sam and the U.S.?

[Starry-Eyed]

28 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I am assuming that Falcon never did sign the Sokovia Accords. Isn't his working for the U.S., particularly in sketchy mcsketherson ways as he was in the opening, a pretty blatant violation of them both by Sam and the U.S.?

I kinda assumed he had to have signed the Accords, or possibly some version of them that got amended during the Blip, to be able to operate as Falcon at all. I had a hard time following exactly what the issue was, but possibly he had permission in one country and not the other, which is why which airspace he was in was so important?

[Kel Varnsen]

11 hours ago, tv echo said:

Natasha: "Most of the intelligence community doesn't believe he exists. The ones that do call him the Winter Soldier. He's credited with over two dozen assassinations in the last 50 years."

Steve: "So he's a ghost story."

I always wondered if the Winter Soldier is such an awesome ghost, then how did the intelligence community figure out his actual name?

5 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Remember, Bucky is 106 years old, and he hasn't dated since the 1930s.  Back then, guys probably did bring their dates flowers on the first date.  

Well Bucky is a bit better than that since he actually had at least one date in the 40's as in First Avenger he brought 2 girls to the 1943 Stark Expo.

[silverstream]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I am assuming that Falcon never did sign the Sokovia Accords. Isn't his working for the U.S., particularly in sketchy mcsketherson ways as he was in the opening, a pretty blatant violation of them both by Sam and the U.S.?

 

31 minutes ago, Starry-Eyed said:

I kinda assumed he had to have signed the Accords, or possibly some version of them that got amended during the Blip, to be able to operate as Falcon at all.

It's been a while since I saw CA:CW, but would Sam/Falcon even fall under the Sokovia Accords at all? He's neither got actual superpowers nor is he in any other way "exceptional" (for example, the way Tony is for being super smart). When it comes down to it, he's just a guy with a suit he didn't build himself and that (in theory) anyone could wear. If he has to sign them, doesn't that mean anyone who is given / buys a sufficiently advanced weapon woud have to? Especially since as far as we he's know only using the suit for missions for the US atm, which would probably already count as "oversight" in regards to the Sokovia Accords.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Butless said:

Sam's an open book, but Bucky's more murky. He gives his therapist the pat answer that he's looking for "peace." Is he? Does he think that he'll find it by intruding into the lives of the survivors of his victims? Or is it to wallow in his guilt? As a selfpunishment?

He’s making amends which is what his therapist wants him to do. My guess his that he chickened out when he met Yori and couldn’t bring himself to reveal the truth.

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I am assuming that Falcon never did sign the Sokovia Accords. Isn't his working for the U.S., particularly in sketchy mcsketherson ways as he was in the opening, a pretty blatant violation of them both by Sam and the U.S.?

Or the Sokovia Accords have the revoked or amended. The other Avengers were not hiding in Endgame so it seems likely that there were substantial changes in the 5 year time jump. 

18 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I always wondered if the Winter Soldier is such an awesome ghost, then how did the intelligence community figure out his actual name?

I don’t think that him being referred to has a ghost had anything to do with his stealth ability but was him being a ghost story. He operated over 

[Bruinsfan]

It's murky where exactly that line is drawn. I mean, obviously Iron Man and War Machine would have been covered by the Sokovia Accords; each of them is wearing a highly versatile WMD. But Hawkeye also fell afoul of them, and I'd put "shoots trick arrows" a lot lower on the super-powered totem pole than "flies and uses a missile-firing drone."

[Guest]

14 hours ago, swanpride said:

Regarding the flowers: Bringing them to a first date is not only old fashioned, it isn't necessarily considered a nice gesture anymore. Might be different in the US, but from the perspective of a German women, "first dates" are usual very casual affairs, where both participants pay for themselves, and nothing is expected. Bringing flowers to such an occasion put pressure on the women that she has to do something in return. Hence flowers are cute if you already know each other longer (like: We have our first months anniversary or something like that) or a special occasion, or as a casual present when you are already meeting each other for a while in a "I just thought you might like them" way, but they are usually not a feature of the first date for the above mentioned reason (unless it is a "he takes her out to dinner affair" that would be different, but that's not what was shown in the show, where it was clearly a more casual date). But again, German perspective, I know that dating in the US works very different with all kind of (from a foreigner's perspective) weird rules.

It’s the same in the US. Plus, flowers just aren’t practical in a meet at a public place world. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, Starry-Eyed said:

I kinda assumed he had to have signed the Accords, or possibly some version of them that got amended during the Blip, to be able to operate as Falcon at all. I had a hard time following exactly what the issue was, but possibly he had permission in one country and not the other, which is why which airspace he was in was so important?

Batroc and company were in Tunisia (friendly to the U.S.) and trying to fly their prisoner to Libya (hostile to the U.S.). To rescue the prisoner, Sam had to act before Batroc and co got into Libyan airspace, where there would have been an incident having an American operative violate their airspace.

Admittedly, the Sokovia Accords were never fully fleshed out, but the idea was that countries had to place limits on when people with advanced abilities or super tech could operate, and the people who had those abilities or tech also had to agree to abide by limitations. So I would think that the U.S. as a signatory to the accords would not be able to engage in one-sided activities with enhanced/super-tech people.  

38 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I always wondered if the Winter Soldier is such an awesome ghost, then how did the intelligence community figure out his actual name?

The intelligence community never figured out his name. aka James Buchanan Barnes Some of them just gave him the nickname of the Winter Soldier, and most of them, at least according to Widow, disbelieved in the notion that one guy had done all the things that were attributed to him.

22 minutes ago, silverstream said:

 

It's been a while since I saw CA:CW, but would Sam/Falcon even fall under the Sokovia Accords at all? He's neither got actual superpowers nor is he in any other way "exceptional" (for example, the way Tony is for being super smart). When it comes down to it, he's just a guy with a suit he didn't build himself and that (in theory) anyone could wear. If he has to sign them, doesn't that mean anyone who is given / buys a sufficiently advanced weapon woud have to? Especially since as far as we he's know only using the suit for missions for the US atm, which would probably already count as "oversight" in regards to the Sokovia Accords.

Everyone with out of the ordinary tech apparently needs to sign them, according to the premise of Civil War and what followed. Ant-Man is  an example of someone with no independent powers but because of his suit was supposed to sign and limit his activity. Because he aided Cap, he got sentenced to house arrest even though he falsely claimed to have destroyed the suit that was the only thing that made him special. 

18 minutes ago, Dani said:

Or the Sokovia Accords have the revoked or amended. The other Avengers were not hiding in Endgame so it seems likely that there were substantial changes in the 5 year time jump. 

That would make sense, but...

In Wandavision, one of the characters references the Sokovia Accords, in a way that made it sound that they were still active.

Edited March 23, 2021 by Chicago Redshirt

[Kel Varnsen]

2 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

The intelligence community never figured out his name. aka James Buchanan Barnes Some of them just gave him the nickname of the Winter Soldier, and most of them, at least according to Widow, disbelieved in the notion that one guy had done all the things that were attributed to him.

But it wasn't just a nickname given to him by people like Natasha. It was his actual code name that Hydra called him. So it is like some how he is so stealthy that most of the intelligence community doesn't even think he exists, but there are others that have figured out his actual code name (like did he drop his wallet at a murder or something), and that isn't good enough for the doubters. 

[Abra]

2 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

But it wasn't just a nickname given to him by people like Natasha. It was his actual code name that Hydra called him.

Didn't the Russians/Hydra just call him Soldier (Soldat)? Not specifically The Winter Soldier.

[bethy]

On the Sokovia Accords, it's also been said that there's been chaos in the wake of the Blip. Rhodey said something about alliances shifting and allies changing, so I would guess when four billion people first disappeared, those sorts of agreements fell completely by the wayside or were revoked or altered as the world readjusted. Then when those four billion reappeared five years later the same thing happened again. I doubt there's enough stability in the world for anyone to be enforcing much of anything on the international stage. 

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

That would make sense, but...

  Hide contents

In Wandavision, one of the characters references the Sokovia Accords, in a way that made it sound that they were still active.

 

That doesn’t mean they haven’t been substantially changed or that they are still being enforced. Something had definitely changed by Endgame. 

Edited March 23, 2021 by Guest

[silverstream]

30 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Everyone with out of the ordinary tech apparently needs to sign them, according to the premise of Civil War and what followed. Ant-Man is  an example of someone with no independent powers but because of his suit was supposed to sign and limit his activity.

Ah, fair enough. I never did think they made much sense as presented.

[FnkyChkn34]

2 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I always wondered if the Winter Soldier is such an awesome ghost, then how did the intelligence community figure out his actual name?

Well Bucky is a bit better than that since he actually had at least one date in the 40's as in First Avenger he brought 2 girls to the 1943 Stark Expo.

Is that his actual name or is that what the intelligence community called him so it stuck?  I can't remember.  (Like the Unabomber.  That's not his name, but everyone knows who you are talking about when you say that.)  

Ah yes, you are right - that was set in the early 40s.  My bad.  I think my point still stands though. 😉 

[Chicago Redshirt]

4 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

But it wasn't just a nickname given to him by people like Natasha. It was his actual code name that Hydra called him. So it is like some how he is so stealthy that most of the intelligence community doesn't even think he exists, but there are others that have figured out his actual code name (like did he drop his wallet at a murder or something), and that isn't good enough for the doubters. 

We don't really know enough about the backstory of how he became known as the Winter Soldier. I don't think anyone from Hydra was shown referring to Bucky as "the Winter Soldier." 

But let's say for discussion's sake that it's true that a minority in the spy community heard about the label of the Winter Soldier and that "Winter Soldier" is in fact the code name that Hydra used for him. 

Two possibilities come to mind for me.

Possibility 1: Bucky had been called the Winter Soldier by Hydra before he was publicly recognized as such. A Hydra person slips up and lets a few others in the intelligence community learn that Bucky's the Winter Soldier (or even deliberately lets them know for some reason)

Possibility 2: Bucky had no particular code name or a different code name with Hydra. The intelligence community pieces together some of his work and dubs him the Winter Soldier. Hydra learns that Bucky has been given this nickname and adopts it for whatever reason.

[arc]

19 hours ago, bethy said:

I was trying to figure out where we were time-wise during that scene until Bucky pulled the trigger and woke up.

I assumed the long hair immediately meant it was in the past. Mostly because I’ve been mainlining official promos and trailers so I was already expecting the shorter hair.

15 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

It's also only been a few months (2 months?) since the snap and Tony died, right?  There's no way anyone recreated Steve in only 2 months; they had to have been working on it for years prior to these events, and I feel like that would have been mentioned in a movie if so.

In the Ultimate Comics line that the MCU originally derived a lot from, the US (and others) basically attempted to re-create the super-soldier process as soon as Erskine died. That’s how Bucky got his own enhancements from Hydra (remember, he was running faster than cars in Civil War, and that has nothing to do with his robot arm). Hulk himself (both in the MCU (I gather) and in the Ultimate comics) was from a subsequent American project to make a new super-soldier. While Cap himself only disappeared a few months ago in this timeline, and thus the US government would only have started to need or want a new Cap, the MCU’s US has long, long wanted new super-soldiers.

[swanpride]

I think it is pretty clear that Bucky befriended the old man deliberately...he is making amends by looking out for him. Hence Stan's guilty look when he talks about his son. He run away from the date because he realised that what hits the old man the worst is not knowing what happened to his son, so he wanted to tell him, but then he saw the altar for the son and chickened out.

[Butless]

22 hours ago, RollTheHardSix said:

Bartender girl - I didn't mind her so much. Thinking about it now, I would think the flowers were a bit much. I would've considered that a super-casual date at her workplace which was jokingly set up by someone else - no need for flowers. But hey, it always kinda depends on who brings them, theoretically it's a nice gesture but very unusual. I've never even heard of the games he/the old guy were proposing, so I was guessing that they were old-people-games. To be honest, I didn't really even think about the age gap between them, it didn't seem gross to me - visually. However, I have difficulties guessing people's ages unless it's totally obvious - which it wasn't to me here.

Bucky's guilt - understandable I think. He was brainwashed, but some people make him out to basically be totally non-functioning when he was the Winter Soldier. You can't be operational if you cannot tie your own shoelaces. He's also needed to adapt to situations and make mission-critical decisions so he must have been processing things like thoughts / speech / interactions. 

I also agree with the person above who wrote that his handling of the witness was sadistic - he did take his time and seemed to be savouring it.

The board games she pulled out for them to play are also old games.

The age gap isn't outrageous, but frankly I'm sick of seeing it onscreen. This has been a longstanding thing in the entertainment industry, pairing up older actors with  much younger women, and I'm looking at it from that angle. I'm not even sure how old Bucky is supposed to be at this point. But the actor playing him actually looks at least around 40yo. It's pretty funny that everyone is whining about having 'representation' of themselves onscreen, but they still have trouble presenting women closer to 40yo as worth any male character's time. Not Marvel, from what I saw of the movies, but in general.

Giving flowers, to a date or anyone, has always been -and still is- a token of appreciation or gratitude.  I have no idea why a woman would feel "pressured" to do anything, other than finding a vase to put them in.  They seemed to at least be familiar with each other, he was picking her up at the restaurant, and I thought they were in NYC, or some bustling town, so I assumed there would be flowers you could pick up  on the way there.  I though it was also mentioned that they would be going dancing; Bucky mentions something to Yori that he felt like he hadn't danced since '43.

Anyway, that was mentioned because the character was badly written. After looking back and seeing that the 3 main female characters were caricatures (strong black single mother, harpy therapist and sassy young woman),  I'm a little worried about how Sharon was written. I guess we'll find out, soon.

The scene where Winter Soldier kills the innocent bystander just took me by surprise. It could be that it was just directed badly. They kept cutting back to WS's face, which made you think he was being deliberately mean to the man by dragging out the execution. Or maybe that was just meant to spook us, the audience. It worked.

Also, who dreams of themselves from another person's POV? Like you wouldn't be looking into  your face in your dreams; that would be freaky.

21 hours ago, tv echo said:

I think that Leah's dialogue was written to highlight how out of time Bucky is in today's world and how out of sync he is with current dating norms, regardless of how bad it made Leah look as a person.

I didn't notice the age gap between Bucky and Leah. He's 30-something and she appears to be 20-something, but that's typical Hollywood casting (I mean, look at 32-year-old Elizabeth Olsen and 49-year-old Paul Bettany in WandaVision). It's also not the 20-year age gap that we often see in movies starring Tom Cruise or Liam Neeson nowadays. Also, Bucky is a 30-something from the 1940's. Moreover, the date was arranged by Yori.*

... my head canon agrees with above comments that the delay was due to inner Bucky trying to resist the brainwashing (that forces him to eliminate all eyewitnesses), but ultimately failing.

Paul Bettany was cast because he resembled a synthetic person, basically, who is ageless since he is not human.

Yes it is obvious that they were trying to highlight all of that about Bucky. My point was, I wish they wouldn't write caricatures of women or have middle-aged male actors dating much younger women and not someone their own age. I don't find that an unreasonable request. Both Steve and Bucky were aging in the movies, because the actors who played them were, too.

Everybody's got their own idea of what they saw. To me, your head cannon doesn't match to the performance, or maybe the directing/editing, because I saw no proof of WS resisting the brainwashing; none showing on his face, at least.

21 hours ago, swanpride said:

The thing is the Winter Soldier CAN'T act sadistic because he doesn't have enough of an agency to do so. He is like a machine. And Bucky wouldn't act sadistic, because he is simply not a sadistic person. Hence the only logical Conclusion for the pause (other than the dramatic effect) is that even in Winter Soldier mode there is a part of Bucky which barks against killing innocent bystanders.

The WS had been killing  a lot of people, for 70 years. You don't think that, or the abuse and neglect that he experienced, could change a person? Now add to that, that killing people might have been his one way to release tension in 70 years, and Bam!, you just made a sadist.

But you'd only think that if you thought that was a flashback he had, and not a dream.

20 hours ago, RollTheHardSix said:

I get what you are saying and maybe my interpretation was just wrong, I'm not that convinced of it anyway.

But I have my issues with the "machine" interpretations. Yeah, he was conditioned, but there must be a limit to that. There has to be some type of independent thought/personality to function independently if needed. You cannot plan for every contingency - the protocol cannot contain every possible scenario and he still needs to make some decisions independently and on the fly if needed. I would imagine that a lot can go wrong during high-stakes missions and he would have to react to that on his own.

But maybe I am just trying to come at it too much with real-world-thinking...

Also - this x100 😄

His kill count must be through the roof if that's a regular mission. His middle name must be have been "Collateral Damage"...

That was about as sublte as the Falcon's "subtle" mission at the start. No one's gonna notice that plane coming done, I'm sure.

Exactly. Why was he known as a "ghost" when he 1) crashed through a wall sized painting to get his target (when he could have hid out in plenty of places to ambush him, in a museum); and 2) fired off shots from a noisy gun (as opposed to a silencer) in a museum filled with people (and security) ?

But again, you  would have to believe this was a flashback of something that happened in reality, and not something made up by Buckys unconscious mind, to come to that conclusion.

Natasha says he killed about 2 dozen people in 70 years, but this suggests a ton more were "collateral damage."

I never gave much thought to the idea of whether or not WS had any degree of free will, because when he first pops up on that highway in CA:WS, he gets pissed off that Nastasha clipped his goggles and instead of seeking out his mission (Steve), he goes after her. That's an example where you can actually see that he's not a machine, that he has emotions, and that they can prompt him to change his course, temporarily. You can see it in the character's behavior, the actor's performance, and in how it was edited (and presumably directed).

8 hours ago, Dani said:

He’s making amends which is what his therapist wants him to do. My guess his that he chickened out when he met Yori and couldn’t bring himself to reveal the truth.

Or the Sokovia Accords have the revoked or amended. The other Avengers were not hiding in Endgame so it seems likely that there were substantial changes in the 5 year time jump. 

I don’t think that him being referred to has a ghost had anything to do with his stealth ability but was him being a ghost story. He operated over 

No therapist would tell anyone, let alone an ex-assassin, to make amends with his victim's family.

That list was of his own making. The list of 'amends' that the therapist mentions  (and that we see Zemo is on) is for Hydra operatives that he knew of or worked with; turning them in, seems to be part of the deal with him getting pardoned.

Edited March 23, 2021 by Butless

[swanpride]

It is difficult to tell how old Bucky actually is. I mean, he was around 27 when he ended up in the hands of Hydra, and minus the snap and perhaps one year on ice in Wakanda, we need to add roughly four or five years. So based on "free mind", he is only in his early to mid thirties. Naturally there is also his time as the Winter Soldier, but we have no idea how often they took him out of the ice and for how long. Considering his enhancements, though, I am quite comfortable to consider Bucky being in his mid-thirties. (Since the Winter Soldier time didn't really allow much mental development and his enhancements delay his aging).

Quote

Natasha says he killed about 2 dozen people in 70 years, but this suggests a ton more were "collateral damage."

Or this was the one mission which went wrong and was part of the reason why the notion of the Winter Soldier became more believable. Maybe that particular attack wasn't even considered to be done by him, exactly because it was so messy compared to his usual missions. (Also, there might be more missions which Natasha knew nothing about...I mean, when she said that Howard and Maria dying was still widely considered an accident, and I doubt that anyone considered him being the killer of Kennedy).

[Crs97]

 

2 hours ago, Butless said:

But you'd only think that if you thought that was a flashback he had, and not a dream.

I thought it was definitely a flashback and the bystander Bucky killed was Yori’s son.      Wasn’t the picture in his shrine the same guy we saw earlier?

[tv echo]

3 hours ago, swanpride said:

It is difficult to tell how old Bucky actually is. I mean, he was around 27 when he ended up in the hands of Hydra, and minus the snap and perhaps one year on ice in Wakanda, we need to add roughly four or five years. So based on "free mind", he is only in his early to mid thirties. Naturally there is also his time as the Winter Soldier, but we have no idea how often they took him out of the ice and for how long. Considering his enhancements, though, I am quite comfortable to consider Bucky being in his mid-thirties. (Since the Winter Soldier time didn't really allow much mental development and his enhancements delay his aging).

FWIW, according to Marvel's primer on Bucky: "Following his fall from the train during World War II, Bucky, still clinging to life, was captured by Hydra scientists, who replaced his destroyed arm with a cybernetic replacement. They also injected him with an off-shoot of the Super Soldier Serum and kept him in stasis, and only activated throughout the decades when a high-level target needed taking out. During their brainwashing and reprogramming, any memories of his past were buried deep within his mind."
https://www.marvel.com/articles/tv-shows/falcon-winter-soldier-primer-bucky-barnes 

[blackwing]

12 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

It's murky where exactly that line is drawn. I mean, obviously Iron Man and War Machine would have been covered by the Sokovia Accords; each of them is wearing a highly versatile WMD. But Hawkeye also fell afoul of them, and I'd put "shoots trick arrows" a lot lower on the super-powered totem pole than "flies and uses a missile-firing drone."

What about Widow?  Does she qualify?  I guess we will find out at some point, but have they definitively established whether she is enhanced or not?  Does she have some kind of serum that enhances her reflexes, etc?  Or is she just be a highly trained agent with electrical battle staves or other weaponry.  If she is just a human with skills honed by years of training, and then given some weapon, does she fall under the Accords?

4 hours ago, Butless said:

The age gap isn't outrageous, but frankly I'm sick of seeing it onscreen. This has been a longstanding thing in the entertainment industry, pairing up older actors with  much younger women, and I'm looking at it from that angle. I'm not even sure how old Bucky is supposed to be at this point. But the actor playing him actually looks at least around 40yo. It's pretty funny that everyone is whining about having 'representation' of themselves onscreen, but they still have trouble presenting women closer to 40yo as worth any male character's time. Not Marvel, from what I saw of the movies, but in general.

 

4 hours ago, swanpride said:

It is difficult to tell how old Bucky actually is. I mean, he was around 27 when he ended up in the hands of Hydra, and minus the snap and perhaps one year on ice in Wakanda, we need to add roughly four or five years. So based on "free mind", he is only in his early to mid thirties. Naturally there is also his time as the Winter Soldier, but we have no idea how often they took him out of the ice and for how long. Considering his enhancements, though, I am quite comfortable to consider Bucky being in his mid-thirties. (Since the Winter Soldier time didn't really allow much mental development and his enhancements delay his aging).

I agree with the second point, I thought Bucky was physically about mid-30s as well.  I'm not seeing the huge age gap of older man / younger woman that is being discussed.  Even if he was 40, the waitress could easily be 30, and I'm not sure why a 10 year age gap is that objectionable?  I know more than a few real-life couples amongst my friends and acquaintances who have 8 or 10 year age gaps.

I guess I am not seeing why this potential relationship is offensive.  It's not like we had really old looking guy with significantly younger looking woman like Sean Connery / The Zeta in "Entrapment", Harrison Ford / Anne Heche in "Six Days Seven Nights", Jack Nicholson / Helen Hunt in "As Good as It Gets", Al Pacino / Gabrielle Anwar in "Scent of a Woman".

[FnkyChkn34]

In real life, Sebastian Stan is 38, and the actress who plays Leah, Miki Ishikawa, is 29.  But Bucky is 106 and we honestly have no idea how old he is "supposed to be" and we don't know how old the character of Leah is either.  But I see nothing wrong here.

[Chicago Redshirt]

17 minutes ago, blackwing said:

What about Widow?  Does she qualify?  I guess we will find out at some point, but have they definitively established whether she is enhanced or not?  Does she have some kind of serum that enhances her reflexes, etc?  Or is she just be a highly trained agent with electrical battle staves or other weaponry.  If she is just a human with skills honed by years of training, and then given some weapon, does she fall under the Accords?

From what we've been shown, Widow has no superhuman abilities, and really does not have any advanced tech beyond her staves and an electrical discharge deal. Yet, it's all but explicitly stated that she signed the Accords to be part of Team Iron Man in Civil War. Why she should have to sign and not, say, every SHIELD agent or what not, is unclear. Maybe every SHIELD agent does have to sign; Or maybe there is a distinction between those who have access to advanced tech who are freelancers versus those who work for an official agency, which would make sense because the idea behind the accords is about people going rogue. If a SHIELD agent goes rogue, the world can hold SHIELD accountable. If random freelance operative goes rogue, less so?

[Kel Varnsen]

1 hour ago, tv echo said:

FWIW, according to Marvel's primer on Bucky: "Following his fall from the train during World War II, Bucky, still clinging to life, was captured by Hydra scientists, who replaced his destroyed arm with a cybernetic replacement. They also injected him with an off-shoot of the Super Soldier Serum and kept him in stasis, and only activated throughout the decades when a high-level target needed taking out. During their brainwashing and reprogramming, any memories of his past were buried deep within his mind."
https://www.marvel.com/articles/tv-shows/falcon-winter-soldier-primer-bucky-barnes 

Wow Marvel's website actually contradicts what is said in the movies. In Captain America Winter Soldier Steve said that Bucky's unit was captured in '43 and the experiments Zola did on him helped him survive the fall. So did he get the serum the first time he was captured or the second?

[paigow]

6 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Wow Marvel's website actually contradicts what is said in the movies. In Captain America Winter Soldier Steve said that Bucky's unit was captured in '43 and the experiments Zola did on him helped him survive the fall. So did he get the serum the first time he was captured or the second?

Bucky got something during the first time he was captured. He was the only survivor of experimentation when Cap rescued him. The website is wrong.

[Chicago Redshirt]

It could be that Bucky was experimented on before Cap rescued him as seen in Cap 1, and then experimented on some more after he was recovered after the fall. Whether he got knock-off super-soldier serum the first time, the second time or both times or what the experimentation consisted of, is not too relevant. 

[swanpride]

He got it the first time already, otherwise he wouldn't have survived the fall. But they clearly Experimented more on him the second time around, also in order to control him.

Anyway, up to 10 years age difference is okay in my book. 16 years between a certain other Marvel couple bothered me, but 10 years is well in what is okay in both directions once we are talking about two adults.

[Danny Franks]

11 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

In real life, Sebastian Stan is 38, and the actress who plays Leah, Miki Ishikawa, is 29.  But Bucky is 106 and we honestly have no idea how old he is "supposed to be" and we don't know how old the character of Leah is either.  But I see nothing wrong here.

For whatever it's worth, the comic book Bucky was said to have aged about eight years in the seventy since his 'death.' In other words, his collective time out of stasis was eight years, which included a couple of long deployments as personal guard for some Soviet bigwigs. They started taking him out for shorter and shorter periods as it became clear his conditioning could begin to fracture the longer he was awake.

I prefer to think of it in those terms rather than just saying, 'he was born in 1917 so he's 106 in 2023' because his body and mind are not those of a 106 year old. He was literally frozen, experiencing nothing and not aging. To me he's a guy in his 30s, physiologically, and completely impossible to describe mentally, thanks to everything his mind has been through.

[calliope1975]

5 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

I prefer to think of it in those terms rather than just saying, 'he was born in 1917 so he's 106 in 2023' because his body and mind are not those of a 106 year old. He was literally frozen, experiencing nothing and not aging. To me he's a guy in his 30s, physiologically, and completely impossible to describe mentally, thanks to everything his mind has been through.

I agree. I never really liked the Cap's an old man jokes, but I got it, because I always thought, other than the world being radically different, Cap and Bucky should still feel the age they were when frozen. It makes sense that Steve/Bucky would have the social cues of the 40s but not oh he'll like hanging with old people simply because he's been alive 100 years.

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, calliope1975 said:

I agree. I never really liked the Cap's an old man jokes, but I got it, because I always thought, other than the world being radically different, Cap and Bucky should still feel the age they were when frozen. It makes sense that Steve/Bucky would have the social cues of the 40s but not oh he'll like hanging with old people simply because he's been alive 100 years.

I agree about Steve.  When he went into the ice, Steve Rogers basically "time traveled" from 1943 to 2011.  He lost his "life" due to the passage of time but it was revealed to him with one quick rip of the band-aid.  In the end, like a real time traveler, he got to use another time machine to go back to his "home time."

Bucky wasn't so lucky.  He got to wake up a lot more.  He got to see the world getting stranger and darker over the years.  So I can see him feeling more comfortable with an older guy like Yori who has also taken the "slow route" to "time traveling."

 

[FnkyChkn34]

Exactly, Bucky is not *actually* 106 years old.  I'm sorry if anyone took me literally (but if he ever did want to celebrate his birthday, that's what he technically is). 

Based on him going "under" in 1943 and being awake for a collective of 8 years, he was 34 when he was woken up "for good."  Let's just say that was in 2014 when Captain America: Winter Soldier happened.  So if he's 34 in 2014, and it's now 2024... he's 44.  Did he agree to go back under for a period of time in between movies?  But he was living in Wakanda for a long period of time too, and then he was snapped...  So he's about 38ish.   

I think it's safe to say that Bucky is actually Sebastian Stan's real age at this point.

Edited March 24, 2021 by FnkyChkn34
Forgot he was snapped...

[swanpride]

If you ignore the fact that he has an enhanced body and that he didn't have much mental development in the maybe 8 years he was The Winter Soldier. I mean, he naturally experienced stuff, but he wasn't really alive in that period if you get my drift.  

[Llywela]

To be honest, I imagine it's so complicated for Bucky to even try to figure out how old his physical body is at this point, between all the enhancements, time spent on ice, and time spent Snapped, it's probably much easier for him to just go by his birthdate and say he's 106, rather than attempt to work it out!

[Morrigan2575]

1 hour ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

So if he's 34 in 2014, and it's now 2024... he's 44. 

He was blipped for 5 years, so Bucky is 39 not 44 (mentally and physically), just like Peter Parker and, pretty much all the Spider-Man kids are still in HS even though they're are technically 20-21.

Minor point but, if we're looking age (year born) vs life I'd say 39 is more accurate.

Edited March 24, 2021 by Morrigan2575

[swanpride]

Let's say he is somewhere in his thirties. And the waitress was something around 30, based on how she looks (she certainly doesn't look like a teen or young student or anything like that). So they are in a fitting age range.

[FnkyChkn34]

38 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

He was blipped for 5 years, so Bucky is 39 not 44 (mentally and physically), just like Peter Parker and, pretty much all the Spider-Man kids are still in HS even though they're are technically 20-21.

Minor point but, if we're looking age (year born) vs life I'd say 39 is more accurate.

Sorry, but I said that - I said he's 38, because he was frozen again for a time in between Civil War and Black Panther.  I don't think you finished reading my whole post. 😉