Predator and Prey: Assault, harassment, and other aggressions in the entertainment industry

[Zella]

I'm kind of shocked by the sheer level of the malignant hubris and self-righteousness on display in that interview. I shouldn't be but yikes. And I'm not coming at this as a Whedon fan who is disappointed in him.

But those excuses and defenses from an adult who has a writing background (so presumably understands the use and power of words), has extensive experience with being interviewed by the media (so presumably well understands how to tailor a message for the media), and has actively cultivated a pro-feminist persona in the past (so presumably is aware of how certain narratives come across) are just laughably and offensively bad.

I really don't think he feels sorry for anything he did. And he apparently lacks not only the self-reflection skills to really ponder what he's done but also even the basic self-awareness to recognize that there are some thoughts you just really should not say out loud. Even if he legitimately feels wronged (he wasn't), he apparently has no awareness of what a jackass he sounds like. 

Edited January 18, 2022 by Zella

[Vermicious Knid]

And he found another woman willing to marry him. The three much younger women the article interviewed illustrate how bad an idea that is.

[Zella]

2 minutes ago, Vermicious Knid said:

And he found another woman willing to marry him. The three much younger women the article interviewed illustrate how bad an idea that is.

I just morphed into a brunette female version of the Blinking White Guy meme while trying to process that. I don't have words. 

[Hiyo]

Quote

Regardless of anyone's opinions of Ms. Berry's acting abilities, the line is objectively stupid and just plain bad. You could combine the dramatic gifts of the greatest actresses who ever lived, and that dumbass line still would have fallen flat. 

Meryl Streep and Viola Davis could tag team that line and it would still suck (and I say this as an X-men fan who enjoyed that movie overall).

I never bought Whedon's brand of bullshit. I enjoyed Buffy (didn't love it overall but I did really like the first 3 seasons), am kind of meh on some of his other projects like Firefly and Dollhouse, so for me finding out he is a real life asshole wasn't all that disappointing the way it has been for some of his fans. It does suck for his victims, and I hope they get all the help they can in dealing with all of this.

[Guest]

I’m reading everyone’s posts and nodding along in agreement but, truthfully, my brain wasn’t able to move past the story of the 4 year old who drowned. The way that is thrown out there and becomes about how his parents are awful was bizarre. I honestly feel like reading that broke my brain. 

I’m so impressed by everyone else being eloquent when this is me:

[Vermicious Knid]

I'm going to say this is probably not true, but the possibility is tantalizing. Former Buckingham Palace royal protection officer says he suspected Ghislaine Maxwell and Prince Andrew had an 'intimate relationship,' according to a new documentary.

Quote

"From the way she was allowed to enter and exit the palace, at will, we realised… suspected, that she may have had an intimate relationship with Prince Andrew," Page claimed the new iTV documentary, "Ghislaine, Prince Andrew and the Paedophile." "A colleague of mine remembered her coming in four times in one day from the morning till the evening – she kept coming in and out, in and out…"

I'm sure this will be a well researched, serious program. *cough*

[Zella]

3 minutes ago, Vermicious Knid said:

I'm going to say this is probably not true, but the possibility is tantalizing.

OK so I have to confess that when Maxwell was refusing to disclose who her husband was, there was a paranoid part of me that was like "IS IT ANDREW?!" And of course it wasn't, but at this point, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that they'd slept together. 

Edited January 18, 2022 by Zella

[CrazyInAlabama]

I find it interesting that Maxwell's husband apparently dumped her for another woman after she was arrested.    It was reported that her millions were transferred to the now ex-husband to protect the money from civil damages from the court cases.     

https://www.businessinsider.com/ghislaine-maxwell-husband-scott-borgerson-moved-on-jail-end-marriage-2022-1

Edited January 18, 2022 by CrazyInAlabama

[merylinkid]

17 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

And the part at the end where he argues that he was “too nice.” TOO NICE. ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?!

Didn't Prince Andrew say that in his interview about his friendship with Epstein?

Whedon got a pass for YEARS because he allegedly wrote "strong" women characters so how could he be a mysognist?    Well thankfully someone finally pulled back the curtain.   The "I had to sleep with them for my own sake" shows he really will never get it.   But that's straight out of the predator playbook too.   Nothing is ever their fault, they just can't control themselves (newsflash, they can if they so choose).   Everyone else is to blame or is "Out to get me" because they "are jealous of my success."   It's never I'm a terrible person and I chose to behave that way.

[ifionlyknew]

7 hours ago, Zella said:

I wouldn't be surprised to find out that they'd slept together. 

I've read more than a few books about Epstein and Maxwell and Prince Andrew being sexually involved was mentioned in at least two of them.  It was Maxwell that introduced PA and JE if I'm not mistaken. Also Maxwell grew up very rich and ran in the same social circle as some of the Royals.  Their sleeping together would not be shocking.

[Ms Blue Jay]

Ah, I see the Joss Whedon article has been shared  !  Grabbing popcorn!

Edited January 18, 2022 by Ms Blue Jay

[cleo]

No Whedon isn't sorry for anything. He o ly did the interview bc work opportunities have dried up and it's step one of the standard comeback tour. 

Disappear for a while, then make a lame non apology apology. There was an article or something setting out the steps but I can't remember the rest. 

Edited January 18, 2022 by cleo

[BlackberryJam]

Joss Whedon. Okay…I never watched Buffy. I saw like 10 minutes, hated it, turned it off. I loved Firefly, but the female characters were Prostitute, Manic Pixie Dream Girl, Badass Ballerina and Fantasy Warrior, I never, ever got Whedon as a writer to be held up as a feminist. I mean, I loved the show, but he wasn’t covering any new ground there. 

I soldiered through Dollhouse because Tahmoh Penikett, but the women in that show were actual fantasy dolls with interchangeable personalities designed solely for the pleasure of men. 

How in the world did the man get held up as a champion of female characters? HOW? 

Rarely am I surprised when a powerful white male in Hollywood is outed as a creeper, but Joss Whedon was telling people his thoughts on women from early on. Reading that article though? Did he take an idiot pill before hand? Was he snorting coke in the bathroom during his pee breaks? 

[Kel Varnsen]

3 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

Joss Whedon. Okay…I never watched Buffy. I saw like 10 minutes, hated it, turned it off. I loved Firefly, but the female characters were Prostitute, Manic Pixie Dream Girl, Badass Ballerina and Fantasy Warrior, I never, ever got Whedon as a writer to be held up as a feminist. I mean, I loved the show, but he wasn’t covering any new ground there. 

I am kind of the opposite. I loved Buffy when it was on. Gave Firefly a bit of a chance and thought it was stupid, gave Dollhouse a way bigger chance and thought it was dumb too. Avengers is a great movie but Age of Ultron was probably the biggest letdown of any MCU movie since I was so excited to see it. So at this point the stuff he has put out is more bad than good so it's not like the kind of thing where an awesome output of great stuff might make me overlook bad behavior.

 

15 minutes ago, cleo said:

Disappear for a while, then make a lame non apology apology. There was an article or something setting out the steps but I can't remember the rest. 

I guess the next step would be super cheap indie movie that he would hope be critically acclaimed and get a bunch of attention. Although speaking of critically acclaimed, I can't believe the article used that phrase to describe the Snyder version of justice league. I mean I haven't seen it, but even based on the coverage I saw that seems like a bit of a stretch.

[BlackberryJam]

2 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I am kind of the opposite. I loved Buffy when it was on. Gave Firefly a bit of a chance and thought it was stupid, gave Dollhouse a way bigger chance and thought it was dumb too. Avengers is a great movie but Age of Ultron was probably the biggest letdown of any MCU movie since I was so excited to see it. So at this point the stuff he has put out is more bad than good so it's not like the kind of thing where an awesome output of great stuff might make me overlook bad behavior.

I acknowledge that my first exposure to Sarah Michelle Gellar was my mother making me watch All My Children and UGH. So I was predisposed to be annoyed with the actress. Also, no particularly hot guys in the show, so I couldn’t find it in me to invest. 

I also have almost no interest in movies based on comic books. I hated comic books as a child and seeing them on big screen holds no interest. 

Whedon can fall in a hole any day now. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

18 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I guess the next step would be super cheap indie movie that he would hope be critically acclaimed and get a bunch of attention. Although speaking of critically acclaimed, I can't believe the article used that phrase to describe the Snyder version of justice league. I mean I haven't seen it, but even based on the coverage I saw that seems like a bit of a stretch.

I don't know anything about this , but here's the RT scores for comparison 🤷‍♀️
Though I think the fans were always going to like the latter.

[DearEvette]

27 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

Joss Whedon. Okay…I never watched Buffy. I saw like 10 minutes, hated it, turned it off. I loved Firefly, but the female characters were Prostitute, Manic Pixie Dream Girl, Badass Ballerina and Fantasy Warrior, I never, ever got Whedon as a writer to be held up as a feminist. I mean, I loved the show, but he wasn’t covering any new ground there. 

What is worse, the show made pains to have Mal often disdainfully refer to Inara, whose profession as a Companion was supposedly a respectable one in that time, as a whore.  So not only did he have a female character being disparaged on the regular, he undermined his own world building to do so.

20 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Although speaking of critically acclaimed, I can't believe the article used that phrase to describe the Snyder version of justice league. I mean I haven't seen it, but even based on the coverage I saw that seems like a bit of a stretch.

well, I mean a 71% fresh rating on Rotten Tomatoes is critically acclaimed compared to the abysmal 40% Whedon's cut got.  LOL.

 

44 minutes ago, cleo said:

Disappear for a while, then make a lame non apology apology. There was an article or something setting out the steps but I can't remember the rest.

The thing is, as much as he is finding himself with some closed doors now, he is 100% assured he'll get work again in Hollywood.  He is in the precious demographic that is allowed to fail and bounce back.  He may no longer get the swathes of adoring fans who hang on his every utterance, but he will get more work.  And he probably won't have to do much to achieve it.  And some of those fans (not all) will come back

He had a deal with HBO for The Nevers even after a lot of stuff about his inappropriate behavior with women had already been revealed.  He had already been poised to ride above already bad publicity.  They only took The Nevers away from him after the Warner Media investigation that was precipitated by Ray Fischer and included damning statements from Charisma Carpenter and Gal Gadot that were going to be made public.

[BlackberryJam]

3 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

What is worse, the show made pains to have Mal often disdainfully refer to Inara, whose profession as a Companion was supposedly a respectable one in that time, as a whore.  So not only did he have a female character being disparaged on the regular, he undermined his own world building to do so.

Yeah, I was being nice about it, but Mal hated himself for being attracted to a dirty whore, which is how he categorized her in his mind. There was nothing about the show that screamed feminist. Any time I rewatch, I just fastforward through those parts. 

I wish there were a nice "registry of jackasses" so that I could keep track of who is awful.

Speaking of awful, Death on the Nile is getting released next month. I know many actors and actresses can't always choose their co-stars, but Branagh chose Armie Hammer. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

1 minute ago, BlackberryJam said:

Speaking of awful, Death on the Nile is getting released next month. I know many actors and actresses can't always choose their co-stars, but Branagh chose Armie Hammer. 

Someone had a hilarious tweet about this.

Something about how they had to cut the trailers around this problematic cast.

Armie Hammer, Letitia Wright (anti vaccine and halting production on Black Panther 2), Gal Gadot (some have issues with her past/politics), etc.

[Hiyo]

Quote

I acknowledge that my first exposure to Sarah Michelle Gellar was my mother making me watch All My Children and UGH. So I was predisposed to be annoyed with the actress

Side track, but aw, I loved 90s era AMC, and I liked Gellar on the show. AMC was my # 3 soap in the 90s, after Bold and the Beautiful and General Hospital.

Edited January 18, 2022 by Hiyo

[Annber03]

I remember Gellar on "All My Children", too :D. 

I think the only thing I've ever seen that had Whedon's name associated with it were the episodes of the original "Roseanne" that he wrote. Obviously have heard of a lot of the shows and movies he's been involved with since then, but for whatever reason, I've just never seen any of them. Sometimes, I think it can be a little easier to do the whole "separate the art from the artist" thing with a creator, since they're often not actually on the screen...but if their voice and vision runs through the entire show or movie, as seems to have been the case with Whedon's work, from what I've heard about it...yeah. It would be a lot tougher to make that separation. Fans of book authors with questionable/awful behavior and views would have that same issue. 

[BlackberryJam]

6 minutes ago, Hiyo said:

Side track, but aw, I loved 90s era AMC, and I liked Gellar on the show. AMC was my # 3 soap in the 90s, after Bold and the Beautiful and General Hospital.

I was a big OLTL fan, and talk about problematic, but I loved 1990s Todd Manning and Blair Cramer. That's also where I developed my crush on Nathan Fillion, who was Joey Buchanan on OLTL. He did a May/December romance storyline with Robin Strasser, who played Dorian Lord, who is 26 years his senior. 

I look back on those shows and what was normalized, and think, "No wonder I've gone decades without calling men out on predation. My entertainment made it seem expected and not a big deal."

[angora]

51 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Someone had a hilarious tweet about this.

Something about how they had to cut the trailers around this problematic cast.

Armie Hammer, Letitia Wright (anti vaccine and halting production on Black Panther 2), Gal Gadot (some have issues with her past/politics), etc.

Out of curiosity, I just searched for Death on the Nile on Twitter, but I didn't last long due to all the Armie Hammer apologists dragging Disney for cutting the newest trailer around him. I saw someone post a photo of Hammer alongside a quote from "Still I Rise," and I had to leave before I did myself an injury.

Yikes, that Whedon interview. In a shallow way, I DO understand why he was touted for his feminism back in the day. The late '90s/early 2000s was a pretty different landscape for pop-culture discourse, and you could go a long way with showing that women could kick ass (Buffy, River, Zoe, etc.,) showing that girls could like "girly" things and still have a rich inner life (Buffy, Cordelia,) and showing that women who aren't stick-thin could still be sexy/desirable (Kaylee.) But for every moment of Buffy slaying a demon, Cordy showing that she's not just a ditz, or Kaylee enjoying shame-free sweets, there's another moment of a dude getting all in his feelings because he can't bear the fact that his hot/personable friend won't go out with him (Xander,) he can't handle his girlfriend being stronger than he is (Riley,) or he can't deal with the fact that the woman he likes is a high-class sex worker who isn't ashamed of that (Mal.)

Also, Whedon identifying with Richard III makes me roll my eyes and say, "OF COURSE he does!" almost as much as Whedon identifying with Topher from Dollhouse.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, DearEvette said:

The thing is, as much as he is finding himself with some closed doors now, he is 100% assured he'll get work again in Hollywood.  He is in the precious demographic that is allowed to fail and bounce back.  He may no longer get the swathes of adoring fans who hang on his every utterance, but he will get more work.  And he probably won't have to do much to achieve it.  And some of those fans (not all) will come back

I’m actually not so sure that he will work in any significant capacity again. Not because of any accountability but because his more recent stuff sucks. He was successful in large part because he had this image of being progressive even though is projects have never brought in huge ratings.  

Hollywood is about making money and prestige. He can’t give studios either anymore. He worked in a pretty niche market to begin with. Buffy and Angel were always on the verge of being cancelled. Firefly and Dollhouse were ratings failures. Marvel and DC were his opportunity to be marketable and he blew that spectacularly. 

Edited January 18, 2022 by Guest

[Hiyo]

Quote

I was a big OLTL fan, and talk about problematic, but I loved 1990s Todd Manning and Blair Cramer. That's also where I developed my crush on Nathan Fillion, who was Joey Buchanan on OLTL. He did a May/December romance storyline with Robin Strasser, who played Dorian Lord, who is 26 years his senior. 

Oh, I'm aware of that...OLTL was my # 4 show ;)

Yeah, looking back, there is quite a bit from soaps of that era that are problematic by today's standards, but then again, you could say that about most pop culture from that era, no? And to be fair, there was some balance as those shows did tackle many topical stories like sexual assault, AIDs, homophobia, ageism, racism, drug addiction, etc. Even if the results were sometimes mixed, they at lest brought the topic to the audience's attention, which wasn't a bad thing.

And yes, Fillion's Joey and Strasser's Dorian were HAWT together, and are exhibit A for anyone who says an older woman/younger man dynamic won't have much or any chemistry together.

[BlackberryJam]

24 minutes ago, Hiyo said:

Oh, I'm aware of that...OLTL was my # 4 show ;)

Yeah, looking back, there is quite a bit from soaps of that era that are problematic by today's standards, but then again, you could say that about most pop culture from that era, no? And to be fair, there was some balance as those shows did tackle many topical stories like sexual assault, AIDs, homophobia, ageism, racism, drug addiction, etc. Even if the results were sometimes mixed, they at lest brought the topic to the audience's attention, which wasn't a bad thing.

And yes, Fillion's Joey and Strasser's Dorian were HAWT together, and are exhibit A for anyone who says an older woman/younger man dynamic won't have much or any chemistry together.

Oh thank the Seven, it wasn't just me! I know, age difference/problematic/power dynamic, but damn they were hot. 

Looking at those soaps through a 2022 lens is like brushing your teeth and then chewing one of those red plaque tablets they made chew in school. You think it's all good and fun and your mouth is clean, but then it's all covered in inappropriate stories and predation and pink residue on your teeth. 

Soaps were telling women's stories, using more female POV, and yes, attempting to tackle social issues. I can't regret my years of soap watching. 

[GaT]

Joss Whedon's interview gives off the same vibes as Prince Andrew's interview, & will probably do him as much damage.

[DearEvette]

Ha!  Charisma Carpenter is NOT feeling this latest Joss mess.  She is Savage!

She and Ray Fisher are supporting each other fiercely in a bunch of tweets:

LOL

[Spartan Girl]

1 hour ago, angora said:

Also, Whedon identifying with Richard III makes me roll my eyes and say, "OF COURSE he does!" almost as much as Whedon identifying with Topher from Dollhouse.

Don’t forget Xander. In any other show, a character as whiny, self-righteous and useless as he was would have been killed off back in season two at the latest. But because he was Whedon’s self-insert, we had to endure him for the entire run.

8 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

Ha!  Charisma Carpenter is NOT feeling this latest Joss mess.  She is Savage!

She and Ray Fisher are supporting each other fiercely in a bunch of tweets:

LOL

Cordelia Chase still takes crap from no one. Good for both of them! And good for Gal Gadot for standing her ground and shooting down that bullshit claim that she somehow “misunderstood”.

[Mabinogia]

2 hours ago, Hiyo said:

Side track, but aw, I loved 90s era AMC, and I liked Gellar on the show

I loved Kendall! I thought SMG was great as Erica's daughter. I loved her first though in Swans Crossing and I am pretty sure she is the main reason I stuck with Buffy. Her and Spike, though oddly, watching it back recently, I don't care for Spike any more. And the less said about Xander the better. I think Xander was 100% Whedon's insert character, which really should have been a HUGE flashing sign of who he really is. 

I do think that about 98% of his "feminist hero" label is from Buffy. The refreshing thing about Buffy was that she was a girly girl but also tough. Most "badass" women at the time were either oozing sex all over the place, or they were basically male characters with an actress playing them. Buffy was a girl who liked cheerleading and makeup but also could kick a demon's ass. 

Sadly, I don't think he ever did anything else that qualifies as feminist after that. He just coasted on his new title to make a space whore (Firefly) and brainwashed sex dolls (Dollhouse). 

The worst think about Firefly was that Mal was supposedly the hero of the show yet he constantly put Inara down for being a "whore". Disgusting. I really couldn't get into Firefly, but from what I've seen of it, and what I've heard of it, that, too, is very telling of Joss's real personality. 

[aradia22]

Quote

I soldiered through Dollhouse because Tahmoh Penikett, but the women in that show were actual fantasy dolls with interchangeable personalities designed solely for the pleasure of men. [...] Rarely am I surprised when a powerful white male in Hollywood is outed as a creeper, but Joss Whedon was telling people his thoughts on women from early on. 

Victor and Sierra were the only good characters on Dollhouse. Yes, in hindsight Adelle and Boyd were also terrible. No one else escaped that show looking like a competent actor because the writing was so bad. Maybe it's because Dollhouse was the only show I watched from beginning to end (it helped that it was so short) and because the other things I watched were Dr. Horrible's Sing Along Blog (classic toxic nice guy) and the musical episode of Buffy but I was always skeptical of people who championed Whedon. THAT'S your feminist hero? I liked Dr. Horrible. I didn't think he was untalented. But the red flags were all over the place. 

Quote

Out of curiosity, I just searched for Death on the Nile on Twitter, but I didn't last long due to all the Armie Hammer apologists dragging Disney for cutting the newest trailer around him. I saw someone post a photo of Hammer alongside a quote from "Still I Rise," and I had to leave before I did myself an injury.

I just find it funny that now there are suddenly Armie Hammer fans. Where were they every time he had a lead role in a movie?

[Mabinogia]

10 minutes ago, aradia22 said:

Victor and Sierra were the only good characters on Dollhouse. Yes, in hindsight Adelle and Boyd were also terrible

There were only two things I liked about Dollhouse. The ep where Adelle and Topher were drugged or something and reverted to almost children, or stoners. I just remember Adelle trying to climb the railing and Topher being all "you're my superior in every way". And the time Enver Gjokaj (Victor) was Topher, along with a bunch of other characters. Enver was really the highlight of that show for me. Another show that I only watched because of the actors, not because Joss is some brilliant genius...cause he's really not, at least not outside his own mind. 

[cleo]

I always wished that guy Enver got more work. He was amazing.

[aradia22]

Quote

I always wished that guy Enver got more work. He was amazing.

I saw him in a play here in NY. It was just okay. And he was good in Agent Carter. He's working but hopefully he'll find a solid TV gig or break into movies eventually.

[Lugal]

22 hours ago, DearEvette said:

What is worse, the show made pains to have Mal often disdainfully refer to Inara, whose profession as a Companion was supposedly a respectable one in that time, as a whore.  So not only did he have a female character being disparaged on the regular, he undermined his own world building to do so.

The Companions were supposedly based off historical analogs like the Japanese Geisha, Korean Kisaeng and Ancient Greek Hetairai, who were highly educated, regarded by society, and selective of their clientele.  It seems like calling a Companion a common whore would be like referring to an A-list actress as a street performer.  If this was Mal's own issues/insecurity that would be one thing (and an interesting dynamic to explore) but hearing Whedon's plans for future stories around Inara, it's clear that was Whedon's feelings on the character.

19 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

I do think that about 98% of his "feminist hero" label is from Buffy. The refreshing thing about Buffy was that she was a girly girl but also tough. Most "badass" women at the time were either oozing sex all over the place, or they were basically male characters with an actress playing them. Buffy was a girl who liked cheerleading and makeup but also could kick a demon's ass.

Whedon was lucky enough to catch the zeitgeist of kick-ass women in the late 90's (Xena was on TV around the same time).  And I think that much of the feminism (and even success) of Buffy was due to the other people working on the show like Jane Espenson who later went on the Battlestar Galactica, Once Upon A Time, Gilmore Girls and Jessica Jones.

[Hiyo]

And also to Dana Scully from the X-Files.

[Kel Varnsen]

22 hours ago, Dani said:

Marvel and DC were his opportunity to be marketable and he blew that spectacularly. 

It still blows my mind a bit that he spent a lot of time on the Age of Ultron press tour trashing the experience and saying how bad it was working for Marvel instead of actually promoting the movie. And then after that they give him the director's chair for another big super hero movie. I mean it is pretty clear (but unfortunate) that you can treat your employees badly, but trashing your bosses and the product they expect to make money off of and you get away with it is surprising.

42 minutes ago, Lugal said:

Whedon was lucky enough to catch the zeitgeist of kick-ass women in the late 90's (Xena was on TV around the same time).  And I think that much of the feminism (and even success) of Buffy was due to the other people working on the show like Jane Espenson who later went on the Battlestar Galactica, Once Upon A Time, Gilmore Girls and Jessica Jones.

I am not someone who would call myself an expert in feminism, but I was always surprised that in the finale of Buffy (a show that was supposed to be about female empowerment) it wasn't Buffy who saved the world, or any of the other women she was fighting with, but the guy who had tried to rape her.

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

It still blows my mind a bit that he spent a lot of time on the Age of Ultron press tour trashing the experience and saying how bad it was working for Marvel instead of actually promoting the movie. And then after that they give him the director's chair for another big super hero movie. I mean it is pretty clear (but unfortunate) that you can treat your employees badly, but trashing your bosses and the product they expect to make money off of and you get away with it is surprising.

Yep. That’s exactly what makes me think his dysfunction has reached the point he can’t continue to work.

It’s a relatively small thing but what surprised me the most in his interview was how bad he now is at playing the game. Like when he kept excusing himself to go to restroom but later confides in the reporter that someone had told him to do that when he is uncomfortable with a question. He keeps telling on himself without even realizing which makes him unemployable. 

[Jack Shaftoe]

22 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Don’t forget Xander. In any other show, a character as whiny, self-righteous and useless as he was would have been killed off back in season two at the latest. But because he was Whedon’s self-insert, we had to endure him for the entire run.

Xander was far more useful when it came to fighting and saving Buffy's life than anyone not called Buffy in the first two seasons. And in any event, characters who are not particularly useful and are seen as annoying by many fans tend to survive in most shows as comic relief or damsel in distress or whatever. If anything, in many, if not most other shows Xander would have gotten cool superpowers and Buffy would have returned his feelings.

And Joss did marginalise his self-insert later on. Personally, I think this was because Spike became his self-insert - again a Nice Guy but this time he was actually a serial killer and rapist other than merely a teenager who could hurt little more than people's feelings. I really don't think this was an improvement.

1 hour ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I am not someone who would call myself an expert in feminism, but I was always surprised that in the finale of Buffy (a show that was supposed to be about female empowerment) it wasn't Buffy who saved the world, or any of the other women she was fighting with, but the guy who had tried to rape her.

Don't forget that they only won because Ex-Boyfriend Number One gave them a convenient deus ex machina artifact which allowed Ex-Boyfriend Number Two to have his moment of heroic sacrifice.  And that the whole plan was absolutely moronic and only worked because of two deus ex machinas and the bad guys becoming weaker for no reason.

Speaking of feminism, the message of that season was that everyone without superpowers was completely useless, so I have never understood what was so empowering about the finale either.

Edited January 19, 2022 by Jack Shaftoe

[Anduin]

1 minute ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

And Joss did marginalise his self-insert later on. Personally, I think this was because Spike became his self-insert - again a Nice Guy but this time he was actually a serial killer and rapist other than merely a teenager who could hurt little more than people's feelings. I really don't think this was an improvement.

It was because Nick Brendon had substance abuse problems. Joss didn't want to cut him loose, but couldn't trust him with proper material either.

[wendyg]

I get the sense that Whedon has never changed his view of himself as the powerless nerdy guy women reject...while nonetheless believing his own press. It's a weird mix.

[ifionlyknew]

3 minutes ago, wendyg said:

I get the sense that Whedon has never changed his view of himself as the powerless nerdy guy women reject...while nonetheless believing his own press. It's a weird mix.

Silicon Valley is filled with guys like that.  Guys who never got the girls when they were younger now have the money and power to get the girls and then treat them like shit.

[JustHereForFood]

2 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I am not someone who would call myself an expert in feminism, but I was always surprised that in the finale of Buffy (a show that was supposed to be about female empowerment) it wasn't Buffy who saved the world, or any of the other women she was fighting with, but the guy who had tried to rape her.

Oh God yes. And Buffy and Willow give the power of the slayer to all of those girls around the world, without their consent, who will have no explanation for why they suddenly have them. The less said about season 7, the better.

[BlackberryJam]

Something that always bothered me about TV shows and writer. Women aren't sex vending machines. Male characters who put in enough "nice guy" to the relationship aren't entitled to sex out.

Whedon views himself as an incel who has just gotten lucky so he's going to grab all the sex he can before it gets cut off. 

[Spartan Girl]

48 minutes ago, Anduin said:

It was because Nick Brendon had substance abuse problems. Joss didn't want to cut him loose, but couldn't trust him with proper material either.

Of course. He’s fine with bullying women even if they’re teenagers or pregnant, and belittling a Black actor is no big deal. But when it comes to firing a drug addict who allegedly beats his wife, then he’s got scruples! 🙄

[Lugal]

3 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

It still blows my mind a bit that he spent a lot of time on the Age of Ultron press tour trashing the experience and saying how bad it was working for Marvel instead of actually promoting the movie. And then after that they give him the director's chair for another big super hero movie. I mean it is pretty clear (but unfortunate) that you can treat your employees badly, but trashing your bosses and the product they expect to make money off of and you get away with it is surprising.

Did he?  What did he direct for Marvel after Age of Ultron?  Pretty sure they either dropped him like a hot rock after that or he jumped ship to DC or both.  He had his Wonder Woman script, which seemed to be all about Steve Trevor, and he was supposedly writing for/in talks to direct Batgirl at one point, but that was dropped too.  All he did was the reshoots on Justice League which pretty much assured he won't direct any big superhero movies again.

3 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

it wasn't Buffy who saved the world, or any of the other women she was fighting with, but the guy who had tried to rape her.

Didn't know that.  Wow.

59 minutes ago, wendyg said:

I get the sense that Whedon has never changed his view of himself as the powerless nerdy guy women reject...while nonetheless believing his own press. It's a weird mix.

Whedon's ego is his own worst enemy at this point.  I think he does see himself as that nerdy guy.  Girls rejected him back in the day, but then he got money and power and could have whatever woman he wanted, and he had legions of adoring fans who would hang on his every word.  He defined his image for the world.  But as things come out and the culture shifts that's not the case anymore and he can't adjust, his ego won't let ask himself: "Am I one if the bad ones?"  Or if he does, his answer is always the same: "No.  It's someone else's fault."

Edited January 19, 2022 by Lugal
Discovered he was supposed to Batgirl

[Kel Varnsen]

1 hour ago, Lugal said:

Did he?  What did he direct for Marvel after Age of Ultron?  Pretty sure they either dropped him like a hot rock after that or he jumped ship to DC or both.  He had his Wonder Woman script, which seemed to be all about Steve Trevor, and he was supposedly writing for/in talks to direct Batgirl at one point, but that was dropped too.  All he did was the reshoots on Justice League which pretty much assured he won't direct any big superhero movies again.

I meant Justice League. I know they were for different companies, but if you spend a bunch of time saying that filming one huge super hero movie was the worst experience of your life instead of talking about how good it is,  it's surprising to me that you get hired to direct another one. Like if you are a manager at McDonald's and you stand up on the counter one day and start telling about how terrible the place is, you probably aren't going to get hired at Wendy's. Because if you do it for one boss there is definitely a risk you do it for the other.

Edited January 19, 2022 by Kel Varnsen

[Bort]

13 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I meant Justice League. I know they were for different companies, but if you spend a bunch of time saying that filming one huge super hero movie was the worst experience of your life instead of talking about how good it is,  it's surprising to me that you get hired to direct another one. Like if you are a manager at McDonald's and you stand up on the counter one day and start telling about how terrible the place is, you probably aren't going to get hired at Wendy's. Because if you do it for one boss there is definitely a risk you do it for the other.

Didn’t Whedon get dumped by Marvel for pissing off Scarlett Johansson and Robert Downey Jr? I could’ve sworn it was Whedon pulling the same stunt on ScarJo that he did with Charisma Carpenter vis a vis pregnancy, only instead of being like Charisma with no power, ScarJo had tons and he was out.

[Guest]

56 minutes ago, kariyaki said:

Didn’t Whedon get dumped by Marvel for pissing off Scarlett Johansson and Robert Downey Jr? I could’ve sworn it was Whedon pulling the same stunt on ScarJo that he did with Charisma Carpenter vis a vis pregnancy, only instead of being like Charisma with no power, ScarJo had tons and he was out.

No. In press for Endgame, Scarlett credits Whedon for fleshing out Natasha and making her interesting to play in comparison to the “sexy secretary” of Iron Man 2. She called him a believer in “strong female characters and story lines”. 

There really hasn’t been any suggestion that Whedon was out of line of the Avengers cast. Most speculation that I’ve seen is that he was on his best behavior because they did have power and Marvel holding tighter control of the reigns.

He was out because he was a pain in the ass to deal with creatively while the Russos are more talented and apparently very easy to work with.  

Edited January 20, 2022 by Guest

[DearEvette]

20 hours ago, Lugal said:

The Companions were supposedly based off historical analogs like the Japanese Geisha, Korean Kisaeng and Ancient Greek Hetairai, who were highly educated, regarded by society, and selective of their clientele.  It seems like calling a Companion a common whore would be like referring to an A-list actress as a street performer.  If this was Mal's own issues/insecurity that would be one thing (and an interesting dynamic to explore) but hearing Whedon's plans for future stories around Inara, it's clear that was Whedon's feelings on the character.

Yeah, that is what I meant by undermining his own world-building.  Why create a entire ass fantasy galaxy world and system where you could literally make up any rules about your own society so you  include sex work as a respectable profession only to barely pay it lip service?  Why apply our own real world morality issues when you have a golden opportunity to reframe sex work as something akin to what a therapist or, hell, a chef does?  If he were really the  feminist and 'rah woman power' dude he routinely dined out on, that is exactly what he would have done with Inara's character. And Mal's world view would have never even included the word 'whore.'  Heck that would have been an obsolete word that didn't enter into anyone's view in this made up fantasy world.

As much as I liked Firefly early on, that element always, always nagged at me.  It really is the mark of a mind that is not as creative as people like to hype up.