Predator and Prey: Assault, harassment, and other aggressions in the entertainment industry

[Mabinogia]

8 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I see this today, in very modern projects, projects actually being released in 2020/2021.

Curb your Enthusiasm had a scene very explicitly discussing consent between Larry David and Teri Polo.  Larry even filmed the entire thing on his phone with her permission.

I think the show Love Life, Season 2 starring William Jackson Harper deals with this.  Projects being released now are trying to deal with this, I think.

I love seeing that steps are being made towards making consent and discussions about consent the norm. 

[akg]

4 minutes ago, aradia22 said:

There has actually been a lot of progress with romance novels but they're not that mainstream.

Plus, this is mostly reaching women (yes, this is a stereotype) and we need to find a better way to reach men who can be less concerned with the kind of consent we're discussing here (another stereotype but I would guess there are numbers to support it).

[Guest]

35 minutes ago, aradia22 said:

There has actually been a lot of progress with romance novels but they're not that mainstream. (I'm not talking indie self-publishing. I just mean fewer people read the average romance novel than watch a blockbuster movie.) I didn't read Bridgerton past the first book but that one is obviously rape-y. Courtney Milan, Lisa Kleypas, etc. are much better than Julia Quinn in that generation of historical romance novelists. But like 50 Shades, it's never the good fiction that gets picked up for adaptation. 

Very true. Good authors also evolve with the times and are stepping back from the alphahole. 

32 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I actually like 50 Shades.  I see no way that Chris Noth can be blamed on 50 Shades considering Chris Noth is 70 and 50 Shades was made in 2011. 🙄

 

Of course not but that not what that post was saying. The cultural norms that resulted in 50 Shades are the same ones that result in people like Noth to be viewed as charming rather than a predator for decades. 

24 minutes ago, akg said:

Plus, this is mostly reaching women (yes, this is a stereotype) and we need to find a better way to reach men who can be less concerned with the kind of consent we're discussing here (another stereotype but I would guess there are numbers to support it).

Absolutely true. 

Edited December 23, 2021 by Guest

[theredhead77]

2 hours ago, aradia22 said:

There has actually been a lot of progress with romance novels but they're not that mainstream. (I'm not talking indie self-publishing. I just mean fewer people read the average romance novel than watch a blockbuster movie.) I didn't read Bridgerton past the first book but that one is obviously rape-y. Courtney Milan, Lisa Kleypas, etc. are much better than Julia Quinn in that generation of historical romance novelists. But like 50 Shades, it's never the good fiction that gets picked up for adaptation. 

 

2 hours ago, Dani said:

The cultural norms that resulted in 50 Shades are the same ones that result in people like Noth to be viewed as charming rather than a predator for decades. 

Absolutely true. 

If you go back even further, these cultural norms started by continued by** romanticising Edward Cullen's gaslighting, abusive and stalkerish behavior in Twilight. There is a whole generation of teen girls (and young women) who thought Edward was so romantic. They internalized it, it has been normalized, then 50 Shades came out, Edward Christian added physical abuse* to his repertoire and those same people internalized and normalized it. It's horrifying.

Meanwhile people like Noth, Lauer, [insert your predator of choice] have been getting away with it for years and our culture is both working to weed out the predators and promoting that sort of behavior as "romantic".

*I am not saying BDSM culture is physical abuse. I am saying the way it was portrayed in the books and movie was abusive and problematic, but that is something that has been discussed in-depth in the past and I'm just clarifying in case anyone thought I was saying BDSM culture is abusive.

**as pointed out below, Twilight didn't start this. Edited to correct my thought by strikethrough, nothing has been removed.

Edited December 23, 2021 by theredhead77

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, theredhead77 said:

If you go back even further, these cultural norms started by romanticising Edward Cullen's gaslighting, abusive and stalkerish behavior in Twilight. There is a whole generation of teen girls (and young women) who thought Edward was so romantic. They internalized it, it has been normalized, then 50 Shades came out, Edward Christian added physical abuse* to his repertoire and those same people internalized and normalized it. It's horrifying.

Edward Cullen didn’t start these norms. He is also the product of them. Sean Connery’s Bond is essentially a rapist as he throws Molly Peter’s character around and holds her down as she desperately tries to avoid his kiss. You look at any media going back to the earliest silent films and you will see variations of the same dynamics at play. 

[theredhead77]

8 minutes ago, Dani said:

Edward Cullen didn’t start these norms. He is also the product of them. Sean Connery’s Bond is essentially a rapist as he throws Molly Peter’s character around and holds her down as she desperately tries to avoid his kiss. You look at any media going back to the earliest silent films and you will see variations of the same dynamics at play. 

Very true. I should have worded my post differnetly.

[akg]

Another woman speaking out about an experience with Noth.

Quote

[...] singer-songwriter Lisa Gentile has claimed in a press conference with attorney Gloria Allred that she was “sexually victimized” by Noth in 2002 when he “forcibly pulled her, kissed her, and touched her breasts.” She also accused him of threatening her afterward, saying he told her she “would never sing again” and that he’d “blacklist” her if she “ever told a soul about what happened.”

 

[possibilities]

I watched a show where consent was an on-going feature of a long term relationship, and it was portrayed as being sexy as hell. But I can't remember the name of the show!

It started off pretty awful, with two high school kids who were very into each other but he was keeping her a secret. Even then, though, consent was a feature of the sex and they were very explicit about it.

As the show went on, the relationship was on and off over many years, but they were always shown to have a very strong sexual compatibility and consent at every turn was always very much part of it.

I can't even remember what streaming service I watched it on. Maybe Hulu? Could have been Netflix. Or somewhere else. I can't for the life of me remember the name of the show or any of its characters, even though I can remember a lot of the plot and settings and characterizations.

[Irlandesa]

12 minutes ago, possibilities said:

As the show went on, the relationship was on and off over many years, but they were always shown to have a very strong sexual compatibility and consent at every turn was always very much part of it.

I have so many thoughts on this that I'll come back to once I'm on a computer vs. phone but this sounds like Normal People which was on Hulu.  Is that it?

 

[akg]

5 hours ago, akg said:

Is there a topic somewhere here that goes into consent in tv and movies? I got curious about where else it's come up and tracked down some articles. Since this conversation is about real people, they don't seem to fit here.

Do we want something like this to separate fiction from reality? If so, I can ask for one but would need help with a good title. I am very bad at stuff like that.

 

[possibilities]

10 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

I have so many thoughts on this that I'll come back to once I'm on a computer vs. phone but this sounds like Normal People which was on Hulu.  Is that it?

Yes, that's it!

I have to say, even though consent was part of their sexual encounters, there was a lot else messed up in their overall relationship. 

Edited December 24, 2021 by possibilities

[Mabinogia]

2 hours ago, Dani said:

You look at any media going back to the earliest silent films and you will see variations of the same dynamics at play. 

That's the real problem. As far back as you can go, even in books, probably even in oral histories before writing, we, both men and women, have been conditioned to think that an aggressive man is desirable, that a man pinning you to a wall and forcing his tongue down your throat is hot. Now, it can be, if you are both into it but either men are ignoring the difference or can't tell the difference when a woman playfully say no, and when a woman very seriously says no. 

The irony is, BDSM couples are actually far more about consent than "vanilla" couples seem to be. In a BDSM interaction there is a lot of "no" and a lot of forcing oneself on the other person, but when that safe word is used, it stops. There is no grey area. Of course there are exceptions as with every rule, but in general, that is the way it works. 

Maybe we need to come up with a new universal safe word, since no doesn't seem to register with assholes.

[Zella]

One of the more interesting takedowns I read of 50 Shades of Grey was actually from a BDSM perspective, and the writer was really livid about the lack of consent and just the general toxicity and inaccuracy of the depiction. 

[aradia22]

Quote

If you go back even further, these cultural norms started by continued by** romanticising Edward Cullen's gaslighting, abusive and stalkerish behavior in Twilight. There is a whole generation of teen girls (and young women) who thought Edward was so romantic. They internalized it, it has been normalized, then 50 Shades came out, Edward Christian added physical abuse* to his repertoire and those same people internalized and normalized it. It's horrifying.

Quote

Edward Cullen didn’t start these norms. He is also the product of them. Sean Connery’s Bond is essentially a rapist as he throws Molly Peter’s character around and holds her down as she desperately tries to avoid his kiss. You look at any media going back to the earliest silent films and you will see variations of the same dynamics at play. 

 

I am a little wary of going all in on this line of thinking as it feels reminiscent of early novel stuff that was lampooned in Northanger Abbey. Most women aren't morons and they don't fully buy into this stuff in the same way men don't think Marvel movies and the Fast and the Furious franchise is realistic. I actually think romance encourages women to be more critical, especially because the focus is on relationship dynamics whereas in a movie geared towards men, you might question the stunts or the time travel and bypass analyzing the way characters behave towards one another. But, of course, some of it does seep in and there's no question that it affects society and the culture at large. So I don't know where you draw the line. 

Quote

The irony is, BDSM couples are actually far more about consent than "vanilla" couples seem to be. In a BDSM interaction there is a lot of "no" and a lot of forcing oneself on the other person, but when that safe word is used, it stops. There is no grey area. Of course there are exceptions as with every rule, but in general, that is the way it works. 

Dan Olson's critique of the 50 Shades of Grey series is my favorite analysis of that franchise and Kat Blaque makes great videos on how BDSM is abused (among other worthwhile topics). (Both on youtube)

Edited December 24, 2021 by aradia22
ETA links

[Zella]

2 minutes ago, aradia22 said:

Dan Olson's critique of the 50 Shades of Grey series is my favorite analysis of that franchise and Kat Blaque makes great videos on how BDSM is abused (among other worthwhile topics). (Both on youtube)

I'll have to check those out. The one I read was on Jenny Trout's blog. She did a chapter-by-chapter takedown that was as hilarious as it was informative. 

[Mabinogia]

1 hour ago, Zella said:

The one I read was on Jenny Trout's blog. She did a chapter-by-chapter takedown that was as hilarious as it was informative. 

I loved that. Not only was it a great critique of the dangers of thinking that 50 Shades depicts real a BDSM relationship as opposed to what it is, which is a controlling abuser pretending he's into BDSM so he can mistreat women but she also gave me a lot of great writing tips. 

 

 

 

[Zella]

6 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

I loved that. Not only was it a great critique of the dangers of thinking that 50 Shades depicts real a BDSM relationship as opposed to what it is, which is a controlling abuser pretending he's into BDSM so he can mistreat women but she also gave me a lot of great writing tips. 

 

 

 

Yeah it was such a great multi-faceted blog. My only real exposure to the original 50 Shades book was a friend of mine and I amusing ourselves by reading random terrible passages to each other when we were bored at work. Someone had contributed it as a white elephant gift (we were all a bunch of English majors in a writing center and much merriment was had at the bad writing), but I read every single entry on Trout's blog for the entire series. 

I just assumed that everyone treated 50 Shades as a joke like we did until a few years later when another friend of mine--an educated social worker whom I really would have thought knew better--was telling me how romantic she found the series. I was gobsmacked, but I used talking points from Trout's writing to add some nonjudgmental rebuttals. 

Edited December 24, 2021 by Zella

[DearEvette]

1 hour ago, Mabinogia said:

...both men and women, have been conditioned to think that an aggressive man is desirable, that a man pinning you to a wall and forcing his tongue down your throat is hot. Now, it can be, if you are both into it but either men are ignoring the difference or can't tell the difference when a woman playfully say no, and when a woman very seriously says no. 

This always brings me to mind of the Aziz Ansari situation where I always felt was a textbook scenario of how two people were coming at a sexual encounter with two very different perspectives and a lot of both of it had to do with just that type of internalized conditioning.  She never gave affirmative consent, but instead used 'verbal and non-verbal cues' to telegraph her discomfort.  He felt he was gonna get laid that night, after all she came to his place, and rather aggressively put the moves on her, and since she never definitively said 'no' he could not read, misinterpreted them as coy,  or either ignored her cues and kept on being aggressive as her discomfort mounted.  It is worth noting that when she finally did definitively say 'no' and that she wanted to leave he stopped and called her an Uber. 

It is maddening because it is her own story and in the telling so much of what is happening is going on in her head, and in her own head she is clearly not into him.  But extrapolating it seems like he has been indoctrinated into the 'no means no' school and since he didn't hear the 'no' the absence of it must mean yes.

[scarynikki12]

2 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

probably even in oral histories before writing,

In Greek Mythology the god Hades kidnaps and rapes his niece Kore/Persephone (name depends on the time the story was told). Her mother and his sister, Demeter, in her rage and grief goes scorched earth and makes the land barren as punishment. If the land is barren then the animals and humans will die. If the animals die then there's nothing to be sacrificed to the gods and if the humans die then there's no one to sacrifice to the gods so it was a pointed revenge. Zeus can't talk her down despite trying and it takes the literal earth goddess Gaia to get her to reverse it. Hades also ultimately wins because he gets to spend part of every year with his victim so the story doesn't have a happy ending but this goes to your point as it was being told literally thousands of years ago. Unfortunately humanity has been well conditioned to accept horrible behavior even if we succeed in making some changes.

On the Franco statement, I call bullshit and agree that he's hoping the Chris Noth horrors will overshadow him just enough that he can seem not as bad in comparison. He's probably really upset that he (adding spoilers just in case)

Spoiler

wasn't part of the Spider-Man movie 

and is trying to find the path that will lead him back to where he was before MeToo. 

[Trini]

8 hours ago, akg said:

...

Is there a topic somewhere here that goes into consent in tv and movies? I got curious about where else it's come up and tracked down some articles. Since this conversation is about real people, they don't seem to fit here.

 

2 hours ago, akg said:

Do we want something like this to separate fiction from reality? If so, I can ask for one but would need help with a good title. I am very bad at stuff like that.

 

 

Maybe the 'Gender on Television' topic, or the 'Issues with Romance' topic? If we don't want to start a new topic.

[andromeda331]

10 hours ago, akg said:

I am very disappointed in Michigan: Former Michigan State officials were cleared in Nassar sexual abuse investigation

 

Well, that's bullshit!

Regarding books and movies I really don't get why its so hard for them to show consent. Its 2021 show the woman wanting sex. Not too drunk or passed out. Rip off his pants or even a simple "you want to?" "Yes". Its not that hard. Or a nod.

[Irlandesa]

8 hours ago, aradia22 said:

I didn't read Bridgerton past the first book but that one is obviously rape-y. Courtney Milan, Lisa Kleypas, etc. are much better than Julia Quinn in that generation of historical romance novelists. But like 50 Shades, it's never the good fiction that gets picked up for adaptation. 

I think it's because Shonda is so steeped in that type of fiction--the relationship dynamics in all her shows are unhealthy--and she chose that series of novels to adapt because she fell in love with the series. 

I come from that same "generation" of romantic fiction so I don't necessarily blame her for not overthinking some of the rapey stuff.  I'm pretty good at overlooking it in old stuff I still enjoy.  It's just that the adaptation had zero need to keep that scene in Bridgerton. That's what irks me the most about the choice (even though there are better book series.) Hell, I think it was even worse than it was in the book.

But where I get uncomfortable is blaming fiction for views on sexual assault or relationship dynamics.  Ravishment (a.k.a. rape) fantasies got as big as they were because they were speaking directly to a fantasy reflective of societal restrictions or stereotypes about "good girls" and wanting sex.

And I think attitudes towards consent and predators are still steeped in those societal pressures. 

 

[Vermicious Knid]

There is a huge amount of rape in classical Greek mythology. Also Hera taking out her anger and jealousy on her husband's conquests, even the unwilling ones.

Remember, 50 Shades started as Twilight fanfiction. Before that, back in the 80s, was the Beauty trilogy written by R.N. Roquelaure. It was hardcore BDSM that kicks off with the legend of Sleeping Beauty and has various Princes and Princesses taken to a country to serve out a term as sex slaves. Roquelaure was a pen name for Anne Rice. I saw recently it was re-issued under her own name. Nobody was taking about this stuff then and pre-internet it was very underground. I heard about them from a friend and I think I read them through the school library. My university library had some very weird and wonderful things hanging out in the stacks. The opening scene is actually more true to the original Beauty legend, which is radically different from what people think it is. The story focuses on sex of course, but from what I remember without the kind of abuse and bordering-on-rape that EL James has popularized. Everyone enjoys themselves, no one is degraded and when their time is over they go back to their lives. She certainly is a better writer on every level than James. The fairy tale/fantasy setting puts it outside real life comparisons, so nobody was thinking of this as a way to live.

[aradia22]

Quote

Regarding books and movies I really don't get why its so hard for them to show consent. Its 2021 show the woman wanting sex. Not too drunk or passed out. Rip off his pants or even a simple "you want to?" "Yes". Its not that hard. Or a nod.

With movies, I wonder if it's still an MPAA thing. I don't think it was the only factor but it had a lot of sway in decades of filmmaking rejecting female pleasure or women desiring sex. But obviously there's also the whole anti-abortion apparatus. Misogyny is societally pervasive. I will circle back if I ever read those Kate Manne books but I haven't been ready to get real depressed yet. 

Quote

I think it's because Shonda is so steeped in that type of fiction--the relationship dynamics in all her shows are unhealthy

I've only seen How to Get Away with Murder where everyone is a mess but I believe you. 

Quote

Ravishment (a.k.a. rape) fantasies got as big as they were because they were speaking directly to a fantasy reflective of societal restrictions or stereotypes about "good girls" and wanting sex.

I always think of that scene in Gone with the Wind as a perfect example of this.

[merylinkid]

13 hours ago, akg said:

Another woman speaking out about an experience with Noth.

 

Oh goodie Gloria Allred has slithered her way into another case.   I do not understand why women keep going to her for representation.   She literally slithers into the case, gets some publicity, then slithers out.   You NEVER hear another word.   Not even "the client settled this matter and the terms are confidential."

[akg]

11 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

But where I get uncomfortable is blaming fiction for views on sexual assault or relationship dynamics.  Ravishment (a.k.a. rape) fantasies got as big as they were because they were speaking directly to a fantasy reflective of societal restrictions or stereotypes about "good girls" and wanting sex.

Unfortunately, I do think a lot of men learned the wrong lessons from these types of stories and haven't been taught (or been willing to be taught) any different. 

[Mabinogia]

11 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

But where I get uncomfortable is blaming fiction for views on sexual assault or relationship dynamics.  Ravishment (a.k.a. rape) fantasies got as big as they were because they were speaking directly to a fantasy reflective of societal restrictions or stereotypes about "good girls" and wanting sex.

Yes, fiction didn't make us this way, we made fiction this way because it's what "the people" (meaning the masses, not necessarily individuals (it is amazing how different an individual can be when thinking on their own rather than as a collective)) wanted. 

 

15 minutes ago, akg said:

Unfortunately, I do think a lot of men learned the wrong lessons from these types of stories and haven't been taught (or been willing to be taught) any different. 

I think the sad thing is, for centuries, the people who would be teaching these boys are people (men, really) who had a vested interest in perpetuating the concept that when a woman says no she means try harder, and worse, that if a man is sexually attracted to a woman then he should be entitled to have her regardless of what she wants.

Most law makers, leaders, writers, producers, etc were men for most of human existence and they were the ones making the rules and setting the norms and unfortunately most of them were perfectly happy with the idea that a woman just needed to be "broken down" because she was only saying no because she had never known the pleasure of his dick. 

I am in no way blaming all men or just men, this is more about having power corrupting people. People in power like to keep that power and the best way to do that is to make sure those without power stay powerless. 

Men like Noth and Franco and all the others got away with what they did because they were in positions of power and were able to make the women they preyed on feel powerless. Who would believe you didn't really want to have sex with a big famous movie/tv/music star? And of course Weinstein took it to a whole other level with actually using his power to make or break careers. 

Every time I come here and see that another predator is paying, even in a small way, for what they did I feel like the ship is being inched just a little bit more in the right direction. Eventually, the young boys growing up won't have these predatory men to look to as role models and then things will truly improve. 

I am also often afraid to come in this thread for fear someone I do admire will end up added to the list. So far most of them have been either men I didn't know anything about, didn't care for, or liked okay but didn't love. Chris Noth is probably the one so far that has hit the hardest because I loved Mr. Big and Mike Logan so much. Though his turn on Doctor Who as a character resembling a certain US leader was maybe closer to the real Noth. 

[akg]

James Franco accusers call him 'completely insensitive' after interview

Quote

A statement from two law firms added: "It is unbelievable that even after agreeing to a settlement he continues to downplay the survivors' experiences and ignore their pain, despite acknowledging he had no business starting such a school in the first place.

"In addition to being blind about power dynamics, Franco is completely insensitive to, and still apparently does not care about, the immense pain and suffering he put his victims through with this sham of an acting school."

They said his behaviour "wasn't a misunderstanding over a course name, it wasn't the result of him being overworked - it was, and is, despicable conduct".

They added that "nobody should confuse this interview with Franco taking accountability for his actions or expressing remorse over what happened", calling it a "transparent ducking of the real issues released just before a major holiday in hopes that he wouldn't face any scrutiny over his response".

I'm very glad they called him out.

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

Chris Noth is probably the one so far that has hit the hardest because I loved Mr. Big and Mike Logan so much. Though his turn on Doctor Who as a character resembling a certain US leader was maybe closer to the real Noth. 

Wow. Seriously. I haven't watched Doctor Who in quite a few years, but Noth's character of Robertson in the Whoverse seems ripped from the future headlines, albeit minus the sexual predator characterization, but Doctor Who is a veritable oasis from that plot device, and, anyway, it's really all about power:
wikipedia.org/wiki/Arachnids_in_the_UK#Plot
wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_the_Daleks#Plot

Edited December 24, 2021 by shapeshifter

[possibilities]

I think there's a feedback loop between fiction and real life. While it's true that stories are created and consumed based somewhat on demand, and thus are a reflection of what's already out there rather than the source of it, it's also true that stories can influence real life and change people's consciousness about various issues, for good or for ill.

 

[JustHereForFood]

22 hours ago, akg said:

Do we want something like this to separate fiction from reality? If so, I can ask for one but would need help with a good title. I am very bad at stuff like that.

 

If you decide to start one, I am all for it, but the only suggestion for title I have is "Yes or No? It's not that complicated." 

[Ms Blue Jay]

Adding to what I said earlier about consent in modern projects.

I'm watching "Don't Look Up" on Netflix and a boy says to Jennifer Lawrence (who plays a celebrity) "Can I touch your hair in a non sexual way?" 😄

There was also "Want to make out?" later in the movie which is definitely a thing I hear in movies and TV shows.  

Edited December 25, 2021 by Ms Blue Jay

[Vermicious Knid]

This woman was a stand-in for 4 years on SATC, she published an essay earlier this year about things she experienced on set that shocked her. Now it's been republished revealing it was Chris Noth's 'toxic behavior'.

Quote

Kristin writes, “The first time the ‘alpha male’ actor slid his hand down my back and over my butt, I flinched. I was in my mid-20s and had worked as an extra on movie sets for over a decade; I had never been manhandled. ‘That’s your spot, sweetie,’ Noth said, inching even closer.”

Kristin says she did her best to stay out of his path following the interaction: “My gut said to quit that first day. Instead, I stayed too long, like staying in a bad relationship for far too many years, hoping I’d persevere and land my big break.”

About a year later, Kristin alleges Noth pointed to the stand-in for Cynthia Nixon’s Miranda and said, “I want that one tied up, gagged and brought to my trailer,” She writes, “When he got near me, I balled up my fists, squared my shoulders and said, ‘This is my and her space.’ He backed up, dramatically putting his hands up in the air and said, ‘Whoa, there, little lady!’ He didn’t even know my name. I clenched my jaw and didn’t respond. The crew laughed. But I had had enough; I finally stood up for myself and for the other stand-in.”

 

[possibilities]

It's bad enough that he behaved that way, but that he did it openly and the rest of the people observing basically endorsed it, makes it that much more enraging.

[Zella]

16 minutes ago, possibilities said:

It's bad enough that he behaved that way, but that he did it openly and the rest of the people observing basically endorsed it, makes it that much more enraging.

I also found this detail interesting:

Quote

Kristin also claims that, following the publication of her original essay, she was met with silence by the And Just Like That casting director when she reached out about returning as a stand-in for the reboot. “I found myself wondering whether I was being blacklisted for speaking out,” she says, questioning Noth’s demise onscreen. “Was Big killed off in the first episode because the producers knew of his troubles?”

 

[aradia22]

Quote

I am in no way blaming all men or just men, this is more about having power corrupting people. People in power like to keep that power and the best way to do that is to make sure those without power stay powerless. 

I wonder sometimes how deep that understanding goes. Like, hey, it sure is easier to advance at work with someone else handling housework and childcare... better not let the little woman get any ideas about working herself or family planning. Or, if women have too much free time and start talking to each other, they might band together politically and start agitating for their rights... better bombard them with advertising and messaging about things they should feel insecure about and how women all hate each other so they won't form female relationships and will be focused on competing for male attention (whether or not they're straight). Hey, it sure is useful to have all these citizens to conscript into the fighting forces... better convince women their primary role is getting pregnant and raising children. 

[JustHereForFood]

On 12/25/2021 at 8:52 PM, aradia22 said:

I wonder sometimes how deep that understanding goes. Like, hey, it sure is easier to advance at work with someone else handling housework and childcare... better not let the little woman get any ideas about working herself or family planning. Or, if women have too much free time and start talking to each other, they might band together politically and start agitating for their rights... better bombard them with advertising and messaging about things they should feel insecure about and how women all hate each other so they won't form female relationships and will be focused on competing for male attention (whether or not they're straight). Hey, it sure is useful to have all these citizens to conscript into the fighting forces... better convince women their primary role is getting pregnant and raising children. 

Well, one of the greatest advancements in women's rights came after WW1, when men were away fighting and women had to band together and take care of things they would not have dreamed of before and realized they were good at it. So, there is definitely something to it.

[Luckylyn]

I wasn’t sure where to post about the question of whether or not family vloggers are predatory.   In professional acting there are laws to protect children that limit the amount of hours they have to work a day and a percentage if the income must be placed in a trust.   But with family vloggers there are no laws.  These families can film their kids 24/7 and don’t have to reserve any income for the children even though the children are the money makers drawing in views.  these family vloggers are very popular.  I definitely have gotten drawn into a view of kids being adorable or funny.   My little niece likes to watch family channels.  I’m sure there are wholesome families but it’s unregulated and abuse can so easily happen.

How do we know what’s happening behind the scenes?  Do these young children want or even comprehend being online? Will these kids get bullied at school because their parents shared personal videos of them online?  What happens to the family dynamic when home life is business?

There’s also the issue of predators watching and sharing clips from these channels for their own perverted use.  There was one Mommy vlogger who stopped using her kids in videos after she found out pedophiles were sharing clips on predatory websites.

The Dark Side of Family Vlogging

Family channels are actually terrible

Family Vloggers: Something needs to change

One upsetting video was of a Vlogger who mistakenly uploaded an unedited version of a video about the seriously ill family pet.  At the end of the video she pressures her child to cry for the picture she needs for the YouTube thumbnail. The child was already crying but it didn’t look the way she wanted.  It makes you wonder what ugliness that gets edited out of these channels.

One family vlog I like is the Holderness family because the kids aren’t heavily featured.  They are like guest stars who show up occasionally.  You could  go through tons of content that doesn’t have their kids in it.  I know they probably aren’t all bad but I have concerns.

Edited December 28, 2021 by Luckylyn

[Lugal]

On 12/23/2021 at 6:10 PM, Zella said:

One of the more interesting takedowns I read of 50 Shades of Grey was actually from a BDSM perspective, and the writer was really livid about the lack of consent and just the general toxicity and inaccuracy of the depiction.

It reminds me of the joke about 50 Shades (I forget who said it): the only reason it's considered romantic is because he's a billionaire.  If Christian Grey lived in a trailer park, it'd be a Criminal Minds episode.

On 12/24/2021 at 10:53 AM, Mabinogia said:

Men like Noth and Franco and all the others got away with what they did because they were in positions of power and were able to make the women they preyed on feel powerless.  Who would believe you didn't really want to have sex with a big famous movie/tv/music star? And of course Weinstein took it to a whole other level with actually using his power to make or break careers.

It's not just that they felt powerless, in many ways, they were.  The power dynamic is all too often unexamined.  Movie stars and moguls are held up to other men as paragons, regardless of behavior.  Men are told: if you have wealth and power, women will throw themselves at you.  In modern society men are judged by the quantity and quality of the women that they (for lack of a better phrase) can have, with a lot of contempt heaped on "losers" (Note this does not excuse any non-consentual behavior).  But the nature of such wealth and power is that most men will never even come close to attaining it.  And another thing to consider is that acquiring such astronomical levels of wealth and power require a certain psychopathy that often carries over into relationships.

[JustHereForFood]

7 hours ago, Luckylyn said:

How do we know what’s happening behind the scenes?  Do these young children want or even comprehend being online? Will these kids get bullied at school because their parents shared personal videos of them online?  What happens to the family dynamic when home life is business?

Wow, I didn't even now this was a thing. I already thought that people sharing photos of their children on social media, or celebrities sharing stories about their children without their consent was bad, but this is another level of creepy. It's not like filming your pets who couldn't care less, those children will grow up and see all that has been shared about them. I can't even begin to imagine the damage that this can do to someone's mental health.

[Annber03]

That's one reason I always find it odd when I hear people complain about kids today constantly being online and posting every aspect of their lives online and whatnot, and acting like it's some kind of sign of how "self-absorbed" today's generation is or whatever. Look at the culture these kids are being raised in. They've never had an opportunity to get to experience life offline - even before they learned to get online on their own, their parents were splashing every aspect of their time as babies and toddlers and such all over the internet via photos and videos and such. Should it really be that much of a surprise that the kids will follow suit, then, since they've been taught to believe that sharing everything about their lives online is normal? Why mock them for doing something that the adults in their lives do all the time? 

[merylinkid]

I can't find it, but there was one kid who got old enough to know what was going on and did not like it.   he bought a hoodie with the words "I do not consent to be photographed" on it.   Wore it all the time.   He got one for his little sister too.   His Mom who was one of those Influencer Moms on Instagram.   Of course, it wasn't HER that everyone was folllowing to see, it was the kids.   She was PISSED she couldn't post all over the place about her kids for money anymore because the hoodies showed clearly they did not want to be exploited like that.   She would try to use guilt on the kid too like "Hey this is how I make my money, you want those new sneakers you gotta go along with it."  Things like that.   The kid stood his ground and was all "guess I won't be getting the new sneakers then."   He refused to play in to her guilt trips.

It's only one kid,.   But that generation of kids are just now getting old enough to stand up for themselves.   Some will like the "fame" of course.   But most like, regular teenagers, will rebel.   Unfortunately, there will be a new generation always coming along with kids still young enough to not be able to stop it.  

[ifionlyknew]

33 minutes ago, merylinkid said:

 But that generation of kids are just now getting old enough to stand up for themselves. 

I wonder if these parents making money from exploiting their kids have any college funds or any sort of trust set up for when their kids are older.  Or are they just buying them new sneakers.  We heard  from at least one Duggar kid that they weren't getting a cut of the money the family made.  

I remember when Jon Benet Ramsey was murdered some people were horrified at seeing the videos of her performing in beauty pageants.  Now we have parents who show their kids performing in their living rooms to much bigger audiences.

 

My first grandbaby is going to be born in June and as a proud grandma I will not be showing that precious baby online.  I will show him/her to my real life friends via DMs but that is it.

[merylinkid]

2 minutes ago, ifionlyknew said:

wonder if these parents making money from exploiting their kids have any college funds or any sort of trust set up for when their kids are older.  Or are they just buying them new sneakers.

Bwahahahahahahaha.   Not laughing at you @ifionlyknew.   Laughing at the idea of these self-centered people saving for their kids' college.    They use the kids because they know no one is following them for THEIR lives.   People want to see cute kids, not suburban soccer moms doing suburban soccer mom things.   All that money goes to maintaining the "lifestyle" that their "fans" want.   (i.e., the lifestyle the moms think they deserve).   If tulips got as much attention as kids, these women would all become master gardeners and take their favorite plant to Disneyland instead.   Its about stroking their egos, not providing for their kids.

[ifionlyknew]

9 minutes ago, merylinkid said:

 Its about stroking their egos, not providing for their kids.

Yes.  Back in the day they were stage parents.  They pushed their kids to be famous behind the scenes.  But now they have found a way to be famous on camera.

[aradia22]

Quote

That's one reason I always find it odd when I hear people complain about kids today constantly being online and posting every aspect of their lives online and whatnot, and acting like it's some kind of sign of how "self-absorbed" today's generation is or whatever. Look at the culture these kids are being raised in. They've never had an opportunity to get to experience life offline - even before they learned to get online on their own, their parents were splashing every aspect of their time as babies and toddlers and such all over the internet via photos and videos and such. Should it really be that much of a surprise that the kids will follow suit, then, since they've been taught to believe that sharing everything about their lives online is normal? Why mock them for doing something that the adults in their lives do all the time? 

I think these are overlapping issues that don't always overlap. There was certainly a generation that found the internet for themselves and some of them did become self-absorbed in that way. The zines and blogs and myspace and thinking you were qualified to be a writer and had important things to say that everyone needed to hear. And for younger generations, there are many parents who raise them without or with limited access to social media and don't post their pictures or lives for public consumption... notably a lot of people in tech act like this when it comes to their own kids.

[andromeda331]

On 12/27/2021 at 6:15 PM, JustHereForFood said:

Well, one of the greatest advancements in women's rights came after WW1, when men were away fighting and women had to band together and take care of things they would not have dreamed of before and realized they were good at it. So, there is definitely something to it.

Women have always had to do that. Who was taking care of the businesses and farms while husbands, brothers and sons were off fighting in the Revolutionary and Civil Wars? While also raising their kids. Abigail Adams tried to get her husband to remember the women when forming a new government. That clearly didn't happen. Only after WW1 did women finally start getting rights. 

[GaT]

22 hours ago, Lugal said:

Men are told: if you have wealth and power, women will throw themselves at you. 

Unfortunately, this is not a lie. There are many, many, MANY women who are looking for a rich man to take care of them. 

22 hours ago, JustHereForFood said:

Wow, I didn't even now this was a thing. I already thought that people sharing photos of their children on social media, or celebrities sharing stories about their children without their consent was bad, but this is another level of creepy. It's not like filming your pets who couldn't care less, those children will grow up and see all that has been shared about them. I can't even begin to imagine the damage that this can do to someone's mental health.

I remember Gwyneth Paltrow posted a photo of her daughter Apple when they were on a skiing vacation, & Apple left a comment on the photo that said "Mom, we discussed this" & Gwyneth commented back "But you can't even see your face!", so obviously, Apple has told her she can't post photos of her.  & Gwyneth did it anyway. 

21 hours ago, Annber03 said:

That's one reason I always find it odd when I hear people complain about kids today constantly being online and posting every aspect of their lives online and whatnot, and acting like it's some kind of sign of how "self-absorbed" today's generation is or whatever. Look at the culture these kids are being raised in. They've never had an opportunity to get to experience life offline - even before they learned to get online on their own, their parents were splashing every aspect of their time as babies and toddlers and such all over the internet via photos and videos and such. Should it really be that much of a surprise that the kids will follow suit, then, since they've been taught to believe that sharing everything about their lives online is normal? Why mock them for doing something that the adults in their lives do all the time? 

This reminds me of all the Kardashian kids. Every second of their lives has been recorded & either used in the show or posted online, including their births. Now they're all getting their own online accounts. They have no idea how to live normal lives where a camera is not recording you 24/7.

Edited December 29, 2021 by GaT

[BetterButter]

 

[merylinkid]

Verdict in the Ghislaine Maxwell Case:

GUILTY on 5 of six counts.   Not guilty on transporting a minor for sex (I can see that.  It was Epstein's plane).   

 

The jury had been slowly going through all the evidence.   Then the judge told them they might have to come in even on New Year's Day and Sunday.    They  moved it along a bit.  

 

WHEW.   SOME justice for the victims.