S07.E09: Treehouse of Cards Pt. 1

[Kiss my mutt]

I thought we were heading into political talk here!

[MrsWitter]

Just as a point of reference, there is a much larger debate regarding whether people from the Middle East and North Africa are “White” or whether they are “people of color.” Since race is a social construct and definitions of Whiteness change over time, it’s (IMO) a reasonable and necessary discussion. Currently, the census doesn’t have a separate “MENA” category, despite dedicated lobbying efforts and some consideration on the federal level to adjust the census to better account for MENA people as non-White or a specialized subsection. So, while I’m not making a larger argument about Leva and her approach, there is certainly precedent in her claiming person of color status and she’s far from alone in not identifying as White (irrespective of her husband and child). Now, importantly, as some others have pointed out, being non-White or a person of color isn’t the same as experiencing Blackness either historically or presently. There’s a lot of articles out there about this and I am far from an expert, but I do think it’s important to consider when trying to understand how Leva might identify. The LA Times did a story in 2019 that discusses some of these debates and the census categories:

https://www.latimes.com/projects/la-me-census-middle-east-north-africa-race/

Edited January 18, 2021 by MrsWitter
Typos galore

[RedHawk]

On 1/16/2021 at 6:56 PM, gingerella said:

What does he have to offer, you say? According to sources (Madison) he brings the Big Dick Energy, that's what he has to offer! The dude always looks like he smells of dick cheese. Sorry to be so graphic but there it is. He just looks gross, like, all the time.

As for Leva, did I miss something or is she not actually a bipoc? Isn't she Iranian? How does that make her a person of color having anything to do with the Black American experience? She seems to be tied up in identifying with her husband's black ethnicity and her child's half-black ethnicity, which is fine. But she acts like she herself is a bipoc and that seems off to me, unless I missed the part where she's part Black. Is she?

As for Katherine, bless her heart but isn't she just dumber than a box of rocks? She cannot process anything because she is so far up her own ass that she can't see how fucking offensive she is to pretty much everyone. You could blame it on perhaps inbreeding in her family tree, or being of hillbilly descent or something, but at the end of the day, I just think she is what White Privilege looks like in the deep South. It's fucking sad, and even worst that Bravo considers this entertainment.

This show is sinking into the Mississippi mud flats, and the only thing that would bring it back to an interesting level is to get rid of everyone right now, and start over with a cast of ethnic diversity, and see what their life is really like in fairytale Charleston, I'd bet it wasn't all cotillions and cocktails at Patricia's...

 

For educational purposes: “Hillbilly” is a term of denigration used toward the (mostly white) people of Appalachia. Kathryn and her family are from the Lowcountry of South Carolina and seem to have been there for generations. AFAIK, she doesn’t have Appalachian ancestors, or at least they have not been discussed on this show. 

Using the word “hillbilly”, and especially connecting it with “inbreeding”, is a slur. Same with the words “redneck” and “cracker”. Since we’re discussing these issues, can we discuss dropping these ugly labels as well?

Added: It is not my intention to target any poster specifically as I have seen “hillbilly“ used other times on these boards. I do want to point out how it is often casually used as an apparently “acceptable“ slur. We should consider the use of all such terms as unacceptable.

Edited January 18, 2021 by RedHawk
Highlighted text

[Colfrmb]

I’m sick of Shep and his entitled attitude, the fact is that age appropriate women are not good enough for him, he throws dumb parties with stupid themes  (I took out white trash) mostly because he’s lazy, calls his young GF, on camera, to tell her that he took some kind of pill and he will be there shortly - and he purposely sets up situations to start fights.  I feel like his little GF is determined to stick it out with him because she has her eye on the prize, $$.  Whatever works, I guess.   If Shep was short, fat, not rich, he would have been on the show for one season.  Then there is that witch, Madison.  Yes, she is so nasty and mean.  If she didn’t have dimples, a great body and long blond hair, she’d be gone just like Austen’s last GF.  Why are her goals any more legitimate than anybody else’s?  I never liked Katherine but I felt sorry for her.  I feel sorry for her that her baby daddy went on to inseminate another woman so quickly.  Nobody seems to care about that.  (Every time I see her, I think of “condoms are for slut people” from 90 days). I think it’s interesting that Patricia and Whitney have very little story line these days.

Edited January 18, 2021 by Colfrmb

[RedHawk]

31 minutes ago, Colfrmb said:

I’m sick of Shep and his entitled attitude, the fact is that age appropriate women are not good enough for him, he throws dumb parties with stupid themes  (I took out white trash) mostly because he’s lazy, calls his young GF, on camera, to tell her that he took some kind of pill and he will be there shortly - and he purposely sets up situations to start fights.  I feel like his little GF is determined to stick it out with him because she has her eye on the prize, $$.  Whatever works, I guess.   If Shep was short, fat, not rich, he would have been on the show for one season.  Then there is that witch, Madison.  Yes, she is so nasty and mean.  If she didn’t have dimples, a great body and long blond hair, she’d be gone just like Austen’s last GF.  Why are her goals any more legitimate than anybody else’s?  I never liked Katherine but I felt sorry for her.  I feel sorry for her that her baby daddy went on to inseminate another woman so quickly.  Nobody seems to care about that.  (Every time I see her, I think of “condoms are for slut people” from 90 days). I think it’s interesting that Patricia and Whitney have very little story line these days.

Basically none of these people are likeable and most misrepresent themselves in order to be on reality TV and make money.

We might take a step back and think that these individuals really don’t represent “the South” or, specifically, Charleston. They are just somewhat photogenic people who were willing to let TV cameras into their lives, and then learned that they needed to play up their “character” (meaning: exaggerate traits, reveal secrets, participate in arguments and fights, etc.) in order to get an offer to return for the next season. 

I think the need to “play a character” is why Dani struggles so much. It’s obvious that she has issues and for many reasons isn’t comfortable participating in the group scenes. I still remember in the first season how impressed I was with her self-respect and ability to communicate with Thomas that she would not date him due to his felony drug conviction and being fired as state treasurer. Talk about holding someone accountable! Dani may have more true character and moral fiber than most of these other people. Thomas was this rich older guy looking for a wife and thinking he was such a catch. She turned him down politely and firmly. Maybe I dreamed this but I recall that in one interview he said something about how Dani’s rejection embarrassed him so much that he grabbed onto the next girl who came along: Kathryn. 

 Perhaps her reason for being on the show is to make enough money to pursue her art without having to work full-time. Unfortunately, she seems too emotionally fragile at this time to be letting cameras into her life, and it’s not pleasant to watch her.

Edited January 18, 2021 by RedHawk

[LakeGal]

Dani really seems miserable.  I think she misses being friends with Kathryn.  Leva and the new women used Dani to get at Kathryn.  But they hurt Dani in the process.  They convinced her that she should not hang with Kathryn.  If they had left her alone I think her and Kathryn would have figured it out and went on with their odd friendship.  I do not think Leva is treating Dani any better than Kathryn did.  

[larapu2000]

If there is going to be a discussion about the types of people that should be on our television screens, I think Madison should absolutely be one of them.  I think a woman that is beautiful and KNOWS and LIKES that she is beautiful is really terrifying to a lot of people.  Sure, she's super vain, but vanity itself isn't a bad thing if other women see her confidence and emulate it.  We need more of that, not less.  Austen can miss me with his "attention" comment.  I'm 100% willing to bet the farm that he absolutely adored the attention and the envy that HE attracted with Madison on his arm from other men and women when they were out together.  Fuck you, dude.  I also didn't have a problem with Madison not telling Austen she was okay with him dating other people.  It was honest.  It's absolutely none of her business and not her place as a gatekeeper, but it's not a crime to tell someone that you wouldn't be okay with them moving on quickly from your relationship.

I think Madison's issue with Austen is that she actually does love him and care about him, and then she will be reminded of the fact that he has no ambition or drive while she is busting her ass at building up her own small business, and then she hates HERSELF for loving him, which she then takes out on Austen.  At least that's my theory.  Which she should, because she can definitely do better.  In the time that Austen has been on the show, he could have gotten a master brewing certification (around $30k and 9-12 months) and invested in the equipment to start a small brewery and then he could make his own shitty Trop Hop and not be reliant on the brewers copacking for him, and also make more per case/can/keg sold of his product.  The guy is so lazy that it hurts.  

I like Leva.  I like watching people who work for their success.  I also dislike Kathryn enough that anyone who wants to take her to the cleaners about her shitty, entitled behavior all day every day is welcome on my screen.  She's a terrible person. 

[Back Atcha]

2 hours ago, Colfrmb said:

 I feel like his little GF is determined to stick it out with him because she has her eye on the prize, $$.  Whatever works, I guess.

There is that TLC money...probably not much, but what kind of $$$ does her profession (whatever it is) bring?

2 hours ago, Colfrmb said:

I think it’s interesting that Patricia and Whitney have very little story line these days.

Especially since Whitney is a "the creator and Executive Producer" of Southern Charm.   Have they finally bored themselves?

[mytmo]

As with any of these "reality" shows I take them all with a huge grain of salt.  IMHO they are all manufactured drama and these are all characters playing parts.  These chucklefucks are no examples one should aspire to and are in fact examples of what not to do but they sure can be aggravating at times.  The hypocrisy shown by Leva with her Chiquita Banana "joke" in regard to a style of dress is standard fodder against other racial groups.  As a person that is Native American (card carrying) I do know comments and/or depictions of Native Americans tend to be overlooked and often dismissed when it comes to being racist.  I don't know where I fall on the person of color chart as I am Irish as well.  I am just Mytmo.  

[itsadryheat]

3 hours ago, RedHawk said:

I think the need to “play a character” is why Dani struggles so much. It’s obvious that she has issues and for many reasons isn’t comfortable participating in the group scenes.

My guess about Dani. Being an artist she may be some degree of an introvert.

I consider myself a social introvert. My past work environments include marketing, events, promotions, etc. Exciting, motivating but extremely draining. Personally, I loathe groups. Especially ones prone to negativity, gossip, one upmanship, judging and people telling me what to do. No way in hell could I portray a character, even if the character was me.

Maybe she thought this was a good idea to promote her art, the money was good and it was with people she knew. This season she let Katherine's crazy get to her and Leva appears to be using her (shopping scene) while weaponizing her to attack Katherine. I couldn't do this for any amount of money.

If I was Dani, I'd be running for the hills or have a full bottle of tequila glued to my mouth.

[Jobiska]

In a talking head Madison said some criticism (I don't remember what, but probably about Austen) and there was an infinitesimal pause and then she made a smug little titter and it was for all the world just like Patricia ends a lot of her talking heads.

[chlban]

While I think it's clear that Leva's instructions from the producers was pre-determined, she doesn't bother me as much as she does others. I cannot stand Austen so telling him to STFU was fine with me. I am sick of the way the guys always come to Kayhryn's defense. I have watched since day one and Kathryn is a vile, self centered narcissist. She has been since the beginning. The fact that she is also a racist doesn't surprise me. She has no real friends, she has people she uses.Madison is, IMO, bu far the prettiest girl that has been on this show, and the others have been very pretty, but she us one nasty piece of work. I think I get why Craig and Shep were so invested in "saving" Austen, although I personally think they deserve each other. I am sad that this show has fallen so far. It was my favorite BRAVO show for a while there.

 

[Legalbeagle421]

On 1/19/2021 at 1:31 PM, chlban said:

While I think it's clear that Leva's instructions from the producers was pre-determined, she doesn't bother me as much as she does others. I cannot stand Austen so telling him to STFU was fine with me. I am sick of the way the guys always come to Kayhryn's defense. I have watched since day one and Kathryn is a vile, self centered narcissist. She has been since the beginning. The fact that she is also a racist doesn't surprise me. She has no real friends, she has people she uses.Madison is, IMO, bu far the prettiest girl that has been on this show, and the others have been very pretty, but she us one nasty piece of work. I think I get why Craig and Shep were so invested in "saving" Austen, although I personally think they deserve each other. I am sad that this show has fallen so far. It was my favorite BRAVO show for a while there.

 

I like what you said here. I don't agree with her method of going about the Kathryn issue, but I like Leva too. I don't like for one person to feel ganged up on, so I don't mind the guys caring about Kathryn, but she needs to take ownership for her behavior. It is not brand new information (thank you, Phoebe Buffay 😜) that Black people have been historically compared to monkeys. Also, she just has a history of being an asshole to people, regardless of race lol. Own up to that and grow up.

I know some people don't follow the Bravolebs outside of their shows, but I tend to enjoy lurking on their social media from time to time and I really enjoy Leva (and Venita--she's the person everyone doesn't know the name of lol) on Instagram. I find them both very interesting. But to each their own, of course. 😊

[Back Atcha]

On 1/19/2021 at 11:31 AM, chlban said:

I am sad that this show has fallen so far. It was my favorite BRAVO show for a while there.

Sometimes I can't "heart" a post if I don't agree with all parts.  I LOVE this part of CHLBAN's comments

[heatherchandler]

17 minutes ago, Legalbeagle421 said:

I like what you said here. I don't agree with her method of going about the Kathryn issue, but I like Leva too. I don't like for one person to feel ganged up on, so I don't mind the guys caring about Kathryn, but she needs to take ownership for her behavior. It is not brand new information (thank you, Phoebe Buffay 😜) that Black people have been historically compared to monkeys. Also, she just has a history of being an asshole to people, regardless of race lol. Own up to that and grow up.

 

I don't understand this.  If someone is not sorry, and Kathryn is not - why try to insist that she apologize, or make it right, or "take ownership?"  She doesn't care.  I don't care if she does care or not, why does anyone care?  What is it people want to get from an apology?  It will be fake.  

 

On 1/19/2021 at 12:31 PM, chlban said:

While I think it's clear that Leva's instructions from the producers was pre-determined, she doesn't bother me as much as she does others. I cannot stand Austen so telling him to STFU was fine with me. I am sick of the way the guys always come to Kayhryn's defense. I have watched since day one and Kathryn is a vile, self centered narcissist. She has been since the beginning. The fact that she is also a racist doesn't surprise me. She has no real friends, she has people she uses.Madison is, IMO, bu far the prettiest girl that has been on this show, and the others have been very pretty, but she us one nasty piece of work. I think I get why Craig and Shep were so invested in "saving" Austen, although I personally think they deserve each other. I am sad that this show has fallen so far. It was my favorite BRAVO show for a while there.

 

I actually think she went about the "takedown of Kathryn" all on her own.  Maybe they encouraged it, but Leva definitely came on the show with an agenda.

I agree, Kathryn is vile.  She has never been anything BUT vile.  I still don't find Leva's constant sanctimony entertaining, no matter how awful her target.

 

[aghst]

3 hours ago, heatherchandler said:

I actually think she went about the "takedown of Kathryn" all on her own.  Maybe they encouraged it, but Leva definitely came on the show with an agenda.

 

 

Even if this was purely her idea, the producers chose to air all of it and then in the various gatherings, they set up convos involving the both of them.

If they didn't want anything to do with Leva's supposed agenda, they could have chosen not to film it and they could have chosen to edit it out and feature some other scenes instead.

[Vivigirl10]

Quote

Sooo Leva and her husband talking about her looking like Chiquita Banana (Carmen Miranda, who was Portuguese) in bright ruffled dresses and making fun of it is somehow okay?

I'm so glad this was one of the first comments as it was a stand-out moment for me too. 

Leva:  "I'm so offended by their chauvinistic crap!"

Also Leva:  "Act like gentleman and come take my bags!!"

Leva needs to get her stories straight in her own mind before she opens up her ginormous yapper.

Next up, Bravo needs to welcome a new trans member to the group who can immediately begin a hate campaign against Leva's seemingly overused need to divide everyone and everything up into the "girls" and "boys" group.  

Did anyone see me waving from the tarmac as Pringle's brat kids flew off into the sunset?  Hope you never grace another t.v. screen again! 

[MyrnaMinkoff]

On 1/16/2021 at 12:08 PM, LibertarianSlut said:

I don’t think it’s “whataboutism” to call Leva out on falling short of her own standard.  That’s calling out hypocrisy.  If Leva wants Kathryn to dance on the head of a pin because of who her ancestors were—something Kathryn can’t control—but Leva, a Caucasian woman, is perpetuating stereotypes about Chiquita Banana, a woman/figurehead who more than likely had the blood of indigenous people of the Americas running through her literal or figurative veins, that’s fair game.  

This is my problem with Leva:  I can’t understand why Leva, who is Caucasian by race, but has dark hair and eyes and a darker complexion than some others (not unlike many Italians) gets an audience to speak on behalf of black people.  Since society has rejected the idea that someone can refute allegations of racism by saying, “I have black friends,” then Leva doesn’t get to sit in a position of unique authority because “[she] has black family.”  I find no internal logic in the idea that non-black people who associate with black people or study black history should refrain from offering an opinion on black issues, but Leva believes it is encouraged for non-black people who have black people in their families to sound off on black issues, and that anyone who doesn’t listen and agree with her is running the risk of being labeled a racist.  Huh?  Someone needs to articulate a coherent standard, because the rules seem like they were made up by Dr. Seuss.  I’ll take a shot—each one of us is empowered to be non-racist.  It’s almost crazy enough to work.  

I respect your opinion to draw any line with which you feel comfortable.  My opinion is that drawing a line between “people of color” and “white” for purposes of arriving at a judgment is just as arbitrary as drawing a line or no line between black Americans and Caucasian people of Iranian descent (ie Leva).  Speaking of Leva, I don’t see any evidence that Kathryn’s ancestors were even preoccupied by Leva’s ancestors, let alone had enough ethnic beef with them to alter the course of their society in any fundamental way from thousands of miles and continents away.  I would be interested in what Leva’s claims, if any, are how Leva’s ancestors suffered under Kathryn’s.  

I also need to unpack this “person of color” thing a little bit, because I’m not sure what it means, but it comes up a lot on this show.  Every person who has melanin in their skin is a person of color, so we’re all “people of color” (except some albinos), so clearly this term doesn’t have a genetic basis, it has a cultural one.  I haven’t seen evidence that the term “person of color” is anything but a phrase that attempts to lump all non-white people into a group, even when they have nothing in common except for the fact that their skin often (but not always) has a darker—in some cases, very slightly darker—hue to it.  

There is no good argument that I’ve heard to advance that a Hungarian in the Steppes, a Japanese girl living in Tokyo and a black American living in Seattle have compelling common interests, priorities or goals that a Belorussian-American and a black American who are both in tech don’t share because the Belorussian is considered by most not to be a “person of color”.  It’s my opinion that it’s counterproductive to humankind to group people by immutable characteristics, as opposed to shared values.  I mean, isn’t that exactly what Leva is proclaiming to rail against?  Does she not see that the notion that one person meeting a certain threshold of natural melanin in their skin, should get “x” treatment from society, but if another person has to sit in the sun for a bunch of hours to get their skin that color, should get “y” treatment from society flies in the face of everything she purports to stand for?  That is one of the strangest set of standards I’ve ever heard, especially in a place where I thought the goal was to seek equal treatment, regardless of race.

The Sami people—the aborigines of Scandinavia who are extremely pale with blonde/white hair and blue eyes—have been marginalized and have said to have been the victims of “racism” in Scandinavia, and they generally have as close to no “color” as albinos.  If the Sami have been mistreated—and they have—is there no call to action, because they ostensibly have no color?  That is how the logic of Leva’s argument flows if I follow it through to its conclusion.

Here’s an elephant in the room:  it’s ironic where folks like Leva want to draw the timeline.  Two centuries ago, international slave trade was banned in the US. A century and a half ago some white Americans (and some black Americans) held black people in slavery in certain parts of the US.  Less than two centuries ago, Iranians were still “importing” white slaves.  Slavery wasn’t banned in Iran until 1929!  Does Leva wish to speak to this? [edited to add—given there is at least as much evidence that Leva’s ancestors committed violence against Kathryn’s ancestors as there is the reverse, by Leva’s standard—not mine—Leva owes Kathryn a major apology, and Kathryn should feel free to use public and social tyranny against Leva repeatedly and indefinitely until Kathryn is satisfied with Leva’s apology].

 I have wracked my brain, but I can’t come up with a good reason why slavery in the Americas is Leva’s cause celebre, when she is silent on the matter that de jure—not de facto, de jure—slavery (of whites and blacks) was occurring in her home country, until the Great Depression, except that one buys her TV time on Bravo, and the other might only get her a segment on PBS.  One allows her entree into Charleston high society and publicity for her businesses, and the other doesn’t.  If that is not cynicism and hypocrisy of the highest order, I do not know what is.  

The thing I find most disappointing is that it took me an entire season—only about half of which I watched—to realize just how absurd Leva’s entire raisin d’etre on this show is.  I mean, I’ve taken a stab at it a few times, but now that I’ve really thought about it, I have to question why I didn’t realize any of this earlier.  I simply wasn’t paying enough attention to this hoax she was running, and I think I have some thought exercises to do.

Well, I got to hand it to Leva for something—if she hadn’t been so deeply offensive, intellectually bankrupt, ambitious to get her name in lights, obtuse and shallow, I may not have quit watching this horror show several episodes back.  

This is so brilliant. I’m a woman “of color” and this speaks so much more for me than the solemn, reductive declarations that I am constantly oppressed and - even worse- that everyone is inherently racist and we all have to “do the work” (how tiresome that phrase is!) to overcome it.  It’s patronizing and harmful and people like Leva are just capitalizing on it.

[Sweet-tea]

On 1/15/2021 at 10:11 AM, christmaslights said:

leva is the type of person you eventually agree with, just to get her shut up. any apologies she gets are forced and meaningless.  she thinks she wins.

poor Danny went from being Kathryn's bitch to being leva's. watching them shop together was painful. it is sad, she seems to be on the edge of a mental/physical breakdown and shouldn't be on television.

Quote

But the emoji and the text messages and comments weren't sent to Leva. They weren't sent to her husband or child either. By dragging it out across every event throughout the entire season, pulling everyone else into it and not consistently dealing directly with Kathryn 1:1, she's making it about herself. Besides that she can sit right down because she's a hypocrite about her own racist comments. Chiquita Banana is every bit a racist mascot as Aunt Jemima, Uncle Ben and the Land 'O Lakes Maiden. The character as drawn just happens to be Latin American instead of Black or Native American (which is an appropriate term, I checked).

ITA! I do not like Leva and wouldn't want to be anywhere near her. I think she's mostly after screen time and listening to her harping on people is hard on the ears. 

I am concerned about Dani. She doesn't look good and seems emotionally fragile. 

Madison is not coming off well at all. I hope Austen stays away from her. 

Assuming Cialis is a prescription medication, his trainer should not have given it to Shep (unless the trainer is a physician).

Was Austen drinking and driving? It looked like he had an open can of beer in the car with him when he got out of the car. Not sure though. Maybe it was unopened. 

 

Edited February 2, 2021 by Sweet-tea

[izabella]

On 1/18/2021 at 12:55 PM, larapu2000 said:

If there is going to be a discussion about the types of people that should be on our television screens, I think Madison should absolutely be one of them.  I think a woman that is beautiful and KNOWS and LIKES that she is beautiful is really terrifying to a lot of people.  Sure, she's super vain, but vanity itself isn't a bad thing if other women see her confidence and emulate it.  We need more of that, not less.

If it is confidence, unfortunately, her confidence has turned her into a vicious bully.  Calling Austen names - muppet mouth, beta, pussy - is mean and does not come across as confidence.  It comes across as abusive cruelty.

[Kiss my mutt]

 Bullies and bitches usually aren’t particularly confident in my experience. Madison is vile. 

[MyrnaMinkoff]

Yeah I agree confidence is good, but beauty just should not be the basis for it, in any capacity. It’s absolutely unearned and it has no bearing on your character or how hard you’ve worked. I don’t think, respectfully, that people are frightened by a person who is openly proud of their beauty as much as they are more repelled: the last thing people should be celebrated for is the features conferred them by the accident of birth.  And certainly people should not celebrate themselves for it - that’s just gross!

(I should add, I enjoy good looking people as much as anyone. Why else am I watching bravo?!)

Edited February 3, 2021 by MyrnaMinkoff

[larapu2000]

On 2/2/2021 at 8:12 PM, izabella said:

If it is confidence, unfortunately, her confidence has turned her into a vicious bully.  Calling Austen names - muppet mouth, beta, pussy - is mean and does not come across as confidence.  It comes across as abusive cruelty.

I think bullying and cruel come across as bullying and cruel.  I think confidence comes across as confidence, no matter how misplaced you might think it is.  My point was simply that we already have plenty of insecure women on our television screens who get cosmetic procedure after procedure to make themselves feel more beautiful, and there is an empty pit that they are trying to fill and the looks aren't the problem.  I think Madison is one of the few women that got cosmetic surgery and was like "yep, I'm a babe now, look out, world!" and it's a nice change of pace, honestly.  

16 hours ago, MyrnaMinkoff said:

Yeah I agree confidence is good, but beauty just should not be the basis for it, in any capacity. It’s absolutely unearned and it has no bearing on your character or how hard you’ve worked. I don’t think, respectfully, that people are frightened by a person who is openly proud of their beauty as much as they are more repelled: the last thing people should be celebrated for is the features conferred them by the accident of birth.  And certainly people should not celebrate themselves for it - that’s just gross!

(I should add, I enjoy good looking people as much as anyone. Why else am I watching bravo?!)

I was overweight for a number of years but still had (in my opinion) a beautiful face.  I absolutely celebrated that because I felt so uncomfortable in my body.  Someone feeling themselves and thinking they're beautiful is far from the worst crime, especially on a show which has featured rapists, drug users, absentee parents, and people with annoying dolphin laughs.

[MyrnaMinkoff]

50 minutes ago, larapu2000 said:

I think bullying and cruel come across as bullying and cruel.  I think confidence comes across as confidence, no matter how misplaced you might think it is.  My point was simply that we already have plenty of insecure women on our television screens who get cosmetic procedure after procedure to make themselves feel more beautiful, and there is an empty pit that they are trying to fill and the looks aren't the problem.  I think Madison is one of the few women that got cosmetic surgery and was like "yep, I'm a babe now, look out, world!" and it's a nice change of pace, honestly.  

I was overweight for a number of years but still had (in my opinion) a beautiful face.  I absolutely celebrated that because I felt so uncomfortable in my body.  Someone feeling themselves and thinking they're beautiful is far from the worst crime, especially on a show which has featured rapists, drug users, absentee parents, and people with annoying dolphin laughs.

That’s fair. But also you sound like a nice person who didn’t lord your beauty over other people.:)   Confidence- good. Vanity making you mean - bad!

[eleanorofaquitaine]

Madison strikes me as the very opposite of "confident."