S03.E12: There Is A Tide…

[paulvdb]

Quote

After capturing the U.S.S. Discovery, Osyraa seeks a meeting with Admiral Vance while Burnham and the crew must overcome unimaginable odds as they attempt to regain command of their ship.

 

[dwmarch]

Admiral Vance, diplomat: It's our shit, you know?

Well, I guess we know why people insist replicated food doesn't taste quite the same. What's worse than finding shit in your apple? An apple made of shit.

Why did the Emerald Chain enforcer get turned into icy chunks after being yeeted into space? Starfleet HQ couldn't grab them? The Emerald Chain invaders couldn't grab them? You must exit in Starfleet-issue bubble wrap or else you're instantly dead?

Some serious Die Hard vibes in this, particularly Burnham having to go barefoot at one point. At least she didn't have to walk across a bunch of broken glass.

You can get into the weapons locker on Disco just by shooting at it a few times? I think that would have worked better if the crew was scrambling to cover the hallways while someone tried to hack into the controls and then the DOT-27s came along to help.

There were a couple of "somekindas" in this episode and they bug the apples out of me. Don't say it's somekinda jammer, it's just a jammer!

 

[thuganomics85]

Should have known that Ryn was going to be bumped off in order to "raise the stakes" and show once again that Osyraa is ruthless and evil.  Too bad: I was really enjoying him and I would have like to have seen him continue on: maybe even join the crew somehow (hey, if Booker can do it!)

The previously segment easily gave it away that Zareh was going to come back.  I wonder how he did survive since it was suppose to be such a "death sentence" to be sent out in the cold like that.

So, Tilly's plan; the one that caused her to freak out at Booker for a bit; was to.... simply grab a bunch of weapons and storm the bridge?  I mean, that's not the worst plan ever, but not really the best either.

I'm sure they'll end up getting to Saru, Culber, and Adira in time (or they will figure something out on their own), but I guess Michael knocking Stamets out and sending him away is going to cause conflict between them, no matter the outcome.

Can't remember: is this the first time they established that the replicator uses, err, shit to operate?  Effective way to disgust Osyraa, at least.  I hope Vance sticks around after this.  Starting to like him and not just because he's Oded Fehr!

Michael losing her shoes was definitely a homage to Die Hard.

I liked that they took the time to establish that Grudge was secure.  They know who to prioritize here!

Pretty sure the Emerald Chain scientist was played by Kenneth Mitchell, which is cool since he was in previous episodes as various Klingons, I believe.

Finale next week.  Curious to see how this plays out and if there will be another massive shake-up for the next season.

[Stardancer Supreme]

I'm willing to let Ryn go as long as they don't kill Book.

I liked the action and that Tilly didn't just give up once Osyraa took over the ship.

Okay, who is the President of the Federation?

Loved Admiral Vance and his dance with Osyraa. 

Stamets broke my heart. But he was really unable to see the big picture.  He is the only thing that makes Discovery move and it is far better to take him out of the equation to regain control of the ship. Michael will do her thing and get his family back; he just might hate her for a while.

Quibbles:  If Michael was properly paying attention, she wouldn't have gotten stabbed.  How the hell was Grudge secure in a basket while crash landing back in Discovery?  Hopefully the queen has a forcefield around her...   The ship took her sweet time getting together enough to help the Bridge crew retake the ship. 

Will Ni'Var come into play since Michael called out to her mother? That might be awesome.

What was up with Osyraa's face?  Her makeup looked really blotchy this week.

[Chyromaniac]

13 hours ago, dwmarch said:

Why did the Emerald Chain enforcer get turned into icy chunks after being yeeted into space? Starfleet HQ couldn't grab them? The Emerald Chain invaders couldn't grab them? You must exit in Starfleet-issue bubble wrap or else you're instantly dead?

It’s still space out there, so yes.

“Regulatooooors!  Mount up!”  That’s probably not what they were going for when they chose that name for Osyrra’s goons- but I couldn’t help it, every single time...

Interesting discussion of food replication techniques.  If it makes anyone feel better, that’s kind of what “real” produce is made of too- we “fertilize” the ground, and then plants absorb the nutrients and turn them into food.  It just takes a few extra steps.  It may not always be literal s#!t that we use, but the concept is the same.

The Die Hard stuff was fun- although I’m pleased to see that it wasn’t just Book and Burnham to the rescue.  I hoped that Tilly would be working on a way to retake the ship as well, and it was nice to see the crew seemed to still be behind her.

1 hour ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

What was up with Osyraa's face?  Her makeup looked really blotchy this week.

It’s some kind of makeup effect, I presume to try and give her a more natural complexion.  Orion makeup has generally just felt like green grease paint- it looks like hers this week was more textured than a flat matte finish.  I don’t know which technique actually works better, honestly.

[Chit Chat]

Would someone kindly refresh my memory about the ending with the Sphere Data (?) showing up.  I couldn't quite catch what they said, and close-captioning wasn't an option.  I missed several episodes and haven't fully caught up.  Were they mentioned a long time ago?  Thanks. 

[Maverick]

 The Next Generation Technical Manual established that the replicators used a stockpile of matter--including waste matter--as the source for replicated products.  Given the way replicators are supposed to work, it's not that bad.  They're supposed be able to break down matter to it's component atoms and then rebuild atom by atom into the desired product.   The water we drink today is waste water that has been filtered and chemically treated.   Frankly, I'd rather have the hydrogen and oxygen extracted and rebuilt as new 100% pure water molecules.   

 In Enterprise and TOS, they had "protein resequencers".  Those are the ones you had to worry about.  Like, where did that "protein" come from?    Whatever you do, don't show Soylent Green on Movie Night. 

[Chit Chat]

Never mind.  I found the answer in a search.  Droids

 

Edited January 1, 2021 by ChitChat

[Cthulhudrew]

Yippee kai yay, alien mofos?

[Chyromaniac]

Another thought - I know there's obviously a lot that happens on the show that we don't see - but I certainly hope that Stamets has had a discussion with Adira about how he considers them part of his family (Hugh should probably be in on this as well).  Because otherwise it feels awfully presumptuous for him to be going around talking about Adira in that way, both to Aurelio and Michael.  Up until now it's felt like their relationship has been both friendly and a kind of mentorship, which is good.  But literally describing a teenager you've known for a matter of weeks (maybe months?) as your "child"?  That's kinda weird.

Edited January 1, 2021 by Chyromaniac
Fixed punctuation

[Cthulhudrew]

2 hours ago, Chyromaniac said:

“Regulatooooors!  Mount up!”  That’s probably not what they were going for when they chose that name for Osyrra’s goons- but I couldn’t help it, every single time...

You're not the only one.

[wanderingstar]

Aw man, did they have to kill Ryn? I felt so bad for Book.

TIL the replicated food is made of recycled shit. Thanks, Admiral Vance. Osyraa removing the apple from her mouth upon hearing that was pretty funny.

I kind of dig the sphere data.

I loved the bridge crew teaming up with Booker to break out of the cell.

Quote

“Regulatooooors!  Mount up!”  That’s probably not what they were going for when they chose that name for Osyrra’s goons- but I couldn’t help it, every single time...

Ha! I thought of that as well. Glad I wasn't alone in that.

Quote

Michael will do her thing and get his family back; he just might hate her for a while.

Yeah, I predict a lot of tension between them.

[paigow]

Why is Book needed to find the planet?

• His nav computer should already have the co-ordinates

New Year Resolution for Stamets

• Stop listening to Burnham

[Llywela]

Fun episode! All the pieces are now in position for a rollicking season finale.

18 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

The previously segment easily gave it away that Zareh was going to come back.  I wonder how he did survive since it was suppose to be such a "death sentence" to be sent out in the cold like that.

I'm more interested in knowing how he got to this quadrant of space. Because...wasn't that planet where he was abandoned way out at the other end of the galaxy, cut off from contact with the Federation? Beyond easy travelling distance?

Then again, he works for the Emerald Chain, so probably got from A to B via one of those dodgy transwarp corridors they keep talking about.

12 hours ago, ChitChat said:

Would someone kindly refresh my memory about the ending with the Sphere Data (?) showing up.  I couldn't quite catch what they said, and close-captioning wasn't an option.  I missed several episodes and haven't fully caught up.  Were they mentioned a long time ago?  Thanks. 

The sphere data was part of the season 2 plot - this vast collection of knowledge that was integrated with Discovery's computer and was the reason they jumped into the future in the first place. It has cropped up a couple of times this season, with the implication that the data, having merged with the ship's computer, was developing into a sentient artificial intelligence. Here, since Osyraa was trying to purge Discovery's computers, that AI personality concealed itself within the DOT repair droids that we've seen hanging around a few times but as far as I recall have never been a plot point before, just a background detail. I thought they were cute! 

11 hours ago, Chyromaniac said:

Another thought - I know there's obviously a lot that happens on the show that we don't see - but I certainly hope that Stamets has had a discussion with Adira about how he considers them part of his family (Hugh should probably be in on this as well).  Because otherwise it feels awfully presumptuous for him to be going around talking about Adira in that way, both to Aurelio and Michael.  Up until now it's felt like their relationship has been both friendly and a kind of mentorship, which is good.  But literally describing a teenager you've known for a matter of weeks (maybe months?) as your "child"?  That's kinda weird.

I agree. But then again, we've seen the relationship developing all season, Adira has very much seemed to like being looked after and given counsel. So I liked that Stamets was willing to verbalise that connection and give it a name, when faced with the loss of the two individuals who mean most to him on the entire ship.

[Ely]

15 hours ago, Chyromaniac said:

Another thought - I know there's obviously a lot that happens on the show that we don't see - but I certainly hope that Stamets has had a discussion with Adira about how he considers them part of his family (Hugh should probably be in on this as well).  Because otherwise it feels awfully presumptuous for him to be going around talking about Adira in that way, both to Aurelio and Michael.  Up until now it's felt like their relationship has been both friendly and a kind of mentorship, which is good.  But literally describing a teenager you've known for a matter of weeks (maybe months?) as your "child"?  That's kinda weird.

Thank you for saying this, I felt exactly the same. I know the seasons now are shorter than back then, and I do acknowledge that Stamets seems to be her mentor of some sort - though even that for me is a stretch - but calling them their child is over the top for me. The show just did not have room nor time to establish this. I felt like Anthony Rapp really did phenomenal work here but to me this is more a case of telling rather than showing.

Another reason for me to be frustrated with the latest developments. This season is such a mess.

Also, I cannot imagine anything more gruesome than being blown into space with just a protective shield.

[starri]

7 minutes ago, Ely said:

Thank you for saying this, I felt exactly the same. I know the seasons now are shorter than back then, and I do acknowledge that Stamets seems to be her mentor of some sort - though even that for me is a stretch - but calling them their child is over the top for me. The show just did not have room nor time to establish this. I felt like Anthony Rapp really did phenomenal work here but to me this is more a case of telling rather than showing.

I honestly had no problems with that.  At some point during one of the prior episodes, I did give a thought to "Oh, this is the Starfleet Guide to Parenting Your Non-Binary Child."  

I haven't felt Ossyra was that great in her scenes in command of her troops, but I thought she was great in her one-on-one with Vance.

I also loved that they were able to bring Kenneth Mitchell back, even with his health problems.  He was great with both Ossyra and Paul.

[paigow]

1 hour ago, starri said:

I did give a thought to "Oh, this is the Starfleet Guide to Parenting Your Non-Binary Child." 

Surprised that Bad Guy Scientist passed up a chance to play Grammar Nazi..."Your child is they???" "How many do you have???"

Is Adira an adult / age of consent? Vance must have fast-tracked the adoption...

[ottoDbusdriver]

Just what this series needed -- a 2-parter followed by a 3-parter to end the season.

The one thing missing all along in this show has been protracted diplomatic discussions.  #sarcasm
It really killed the flow of the episode.

I have to say I wasn't buying Stamets' "we all came to the future so you wouldn't be alone, Michael" nonsense.

[paigow]

28 minutes ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

The one thing missing all along in this show has been protracted diplomatic discussions.  #sarcasm
It really killed the flow of the episode.

Vance playing the non-negotiable "war criminal" card at the very end was dumb... immunity for additional concessions 

[starri]

42 minutes ago, paigow said:

Is Adira an adult / age of consent? Vance must have fast-tracked the adoption...

They're supposed to be 16, I believe.

But Star Trek, at its best, has always been about Chosen Family, so I didn't have a problem with it.

[Chyromaniac]

41 minutes ago, starri said:

But Star Trek, at its best, has always been about Chosen Family, so I didn't have a problem with it.

To be clear, I don't have any problem at all with found families, fictional or otherwise.  And as you say, Star Trek is chock full of them - one of my favorite moments in Season 2 is when the bridge crew basically "adopts" Wesley.  I guess what I am missing is a scene like that here for Paul and Adira (and again, Hugh as well).   If Paul wants them all to be a chosen family, that's great - but it's something that they all need to choose.  And if the series is going to treat them all that way, then it should show us that choice.

Even if Adira was only a teenager, they have the right to that conversation - let alone the fact that they're also an alien with seven previous lifetimes.  Until they all have that moment, Adira can be "like a child" to Paul.  Otherwise, it feels as though he's overstepping the trust that Adira has placed in him to just assume one of the most personal relationships one person can have for another.  It's also putting Hugh in a position that he is may not want or expect.

I get that it's really tricky to write scenes like what I'm suggesting without becoming didactic - and that it may be easier to just let their relationship grow through moments in other story arcs.  But this is one situation that I feel needs to be stated explicitly - both for the characters, and the audience.

[UnknownK]

21 hours ago, Maverick said:

 The Next Generation Technical Manual established that the replicators used a stockpile of matter--including waste matter--as the source for replicated products.  Given the way replicators are supposed to work, it's not that bad.  They're supposed be able to break down matter to it's component atoms and then rebuild atom by atom into the desired product.   The water we drink today is waste water that has been filtered and chemically treated.   Frankly, I'd rather have the hydrogen and oxygen extracted and rebuilt as new 100% pure water molecules.   

 In Enterprise and TOS, they had "protein resequencers".  Those are the ones you had to worry about.  Like, where did that "protein" come from?    Whatever you do, don't show Soylent Green on Movie Night. 

I could be wrong but the water we drink today (city water) either comes from a river, spring, or lake and while it is treated and filtered before it gets to us I would not call it waste water. The waste from processing plants is just dumped into rivers that end up watering farms or goes down rivers to the sea where it evaporates and comes back to the land as rain or snow. Our water is billions of years old (except what gets created when things burn) so it has seen millions of dead animals and animal waste over the years.

We don't drink pure water, it would kill you. The purified water you get in a bottle has either been distilled or run through reverse osmosis and then minerals are added for taste or it would taste like nothing but plastic.

There would have to be more then just crap used in a replicator because there are little to no nutrients left in human waste to live off of. The food we eat is not just the atoms that make it up, you have the smell, textures, and taste that make us want to eat it and enjoy it. If you can fake those 3 then the material we are actually eating could just be textured tofu with flavoring and the appropriate smell at the correct temperatures. It would be very hard to actually make food instantly with the correct atoms and at the correct temperature. Also good luck replicating feta cheese because I never had the real thing taste the same every time I get it.

[Joimiaroxeu]

Looking at Osyraa, I'm constantly waiting for the flying monkeys to show up. Sorry not sorry. 😏

Quote

“Regulatooooors!  Mount up!”  That’s probably not what they were going for when they chose that name for Osyrra’s goons- but I couldn’t help it, every single time...

Oh I bet they tongue-in-cheek did have that in mind. Also "I keep forgetting..."

Quote

The waste from processing plants is just dumped into rivers that end up watering farms or goes down rivers to the sea where it evaporates and comes back to the land as rain or snow.

In some municipalities it's also used for golf courses and public parks. I've seen signs warning people that the water coming out of the sprinkler systems is non-potable.

Edited January 1, 2021 by Joimiaroxeu

[paigow]

Was Picard actually drinking "Pee, Earl Grey. Hot" ???

[KimberStormer]

Oy I dunno I'm not super feeling it, although it may just be that this has been a kind of bad day for me and not a great way to start the new year so I'm in kind of a mood.  The Die Hard reference was too on the nose for me, I can't take Tilly bossing people around seriously, etc etc.  There was just too much going on all at once.  This last minute attempt to make Osyraa (or however it's spelled) "complex" was weird, the Admiral's deciding her going to jail was more important than peace was weird, the fact that this negotiation is going on while everything is going bananas back on the ship was weird. 

Weirdest of all is that there's a replacement Replacement Airiam!  WTF!

Andorian dude was indeed the dead man he's always seemed to be -- idk if it's the actor or just the way they wrote him, but it was written all over his face.  Sudden sympathetic scientist should have been introduced a long time ago, unless he was and I just didn't notice.  I did think Anthony Rapp did great work here.  Someone will have to explain to me why the fuck Michael (who was like "WE HAVE TO GET BACK TO THEM!" last episode) thinks they have to blow Stamets out the airlock instead of jumping to the nebula to save the day, leaving Osyraa at Starfleet's mercy and just a handful of sorry clowns on Discovery...I continue to think the reason they had to have the Goodbye Georgiou episode before these is because she would have made mincemeat of these fools.  The whole thing made no sense and I think, against all of you guys apparently, Stamets was totally right here.  Even if somehow she thinks Osyraa will DESTROY THE FEDERATION or whatever the fuck, that kid on the planet there is about to make another Burn, right?  Surely that outranks the Federation in the game of "There's a Bigger Picture"?

But then, I am in a very bad mood.

10 hours ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

I have to say I wasn't buying Stamets' "we all came to the future so you wouldn't be alone, Michael" nonsense.

But they literally did.  It was a transparent ploy to get them all into this season but the plan was originally to send just Michael into the future in the Red Angel suit and an empty Discovery.  They just were like "we won't leave you Michael!" because, as everyone in the Disco Universe knows, Michael is the most important person in the world.

[catsitter]

I guess if Emperor Georgiou could be rehabilitated, so could Osyraa. Maybe in a year or two she will be loved by the whole crew?

[paigow]

2 hours ago, catsitter said:

I guess if Emperor Georgiou could be rehabilitated, so could Osyraa. Maybe in a year or two she will be loved by the whole crew?

If they want to go full Voyager, Saru would make her Number One

[Ely]

2 hours ago, paigow said:

If they want to go full Voyager, Saru would make her Number One

She certainly has more command presence and knowledge than Tilly. But  don't forget how Chakotay was always lobotomized in the process.

16 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Looking at Osyraa, I'm constantly waiting for the flying monkeys to show up. Sorry not sorry.

 

Don't be. Emerald Chain on top of it... there is so much lazy writing this season. 

[Quark]

Superb episode, looking forward to the finale.

I hope that there will be conflict between Stamets and Michael next season and it won't all just be brushed under the carpet when Michael inevitably saves his partner.

[marinw]

Scientist guy looked a lot like Will Wheaton.

Loved Vance and Osyraa's conversation. Some of the best dialouge of the series IMO.

[huahaha]

On 12/31/2020 at 3:32 AM, dwmarch said:

Admiral Vance, diplomat: It's our shit, you know?

Well, I guess we know why people insist replicated food doesn't taste quite the same. What's worse than finding shit in your apple? An apple made of shit.

This explains why the coffee on Voyager tasted like shit.

[Luckylyn]

I think Ossyra is an interesting villain but the actress and her changing accent (British one second, American the next) aren’t working for me.   It’s intriguing that she is willing to make changes but only if she’s allowed to stay in the driver’s seat.  Ultimately she’s only negotiating out of desperation due to running out of dilithium not because of a true desire for peace.  The fact is no one will take a Federation /Emerald Chain alliance seriously if there’s any appearance of Ossyra puppeteering behind the scenes.  Ossyra can have peace or control.  She can’t have both.  She’s do whatever necessary to survive and work behind the scenes scenes to gain control.  She didn’t even offer a compromise like going into exile.  She must have a seat at the table or else.

It occurs to me that parent/child relationships have been a particular theme this season.  Family is a the key to The Burn and resolving the current conflict.

[paigow]

2 hours ago, Luckylyn said:

Ultimately she’s only negotiating out of desperation due to running out of dilithium not because of a true desire for peace.  The fact is no one will take a Federation /Emerald Chain alliance seriously if there’s any appearance of Ossyra puppeteering behind the scenes

Vance promised her a fair trial before convicting her... if he led off with that, the episode would have been 15 minutes shorter..

[staphdude]

A complex, far-reaching interstellar treaty negotiated in half a day while people are held under duress...sounds logical.

Stamets is ridiculous, stern Tilly is ridiculous and Michael Burnam is no John McClane.

Replicators may use shit but ultimately we're all recycling lots of stuff that may best be left to the imagination...or we can all just think of how we are made of stardust!

Edited January 4, 2021 by staphdude

[KimberStormer]

8 hours ago, staphdude said:

A complex, far-reaching interstellar treaty negotiated in half a day while people are held under duress...sounds logical.

It's pretty amazing that they have holo-lie-detector guy (bizarre idea even if he isn't, as it sure seemed, only lie-detecting one side of the negotiations) but no lawyers/diplomats to read over the treaty, just one guy who does everything.

[buttercupia]

On 12/31/2020 at 5:20 PM, Stardancer Supreme said:

What was up with Osyraa's face?  Her makeup looked really blotchy this week.

It's not easy being green.

[paigow]

3 hours ago, buttercupia said:

It's not easy being green.

She might find a Rainbow Connection in the nebula...

[buttercupia]

4 minutes ago, paigow said:

3 hours ago, buttercupia said:

It's not easy being green.

She might find a Rainbow Connection in the nebula...

at any rate, it's time to face the music.

[Zonk]

On 1/1/2021 at 12:47 AM, Chyromaniac said:

It’s still space out there, so yes.

Space doesn't work like that.

 

[starri]

On 12/31/2020 at 5:20 PM, Stardancer Supreme said:

What was up with Osyraa's face?  Her makeup looked really blotchy this week.

I'm not 100% sure, but I think they may have been using painted latex prosthetics instead of makeup directly onto her skin. 

I learned that the actress is Margot Kidder's niece.  There's a resemblance. 

[TAG42481]

I REALLY want to like Disco.  I do like Disco.  But it seems like every episode the writers put one thing that is unforgivably stupid.

 

They made ENSIGN Tilly the acting first officer.  I could care less that she didn't complete what the training program was, every single other member of the bridge crew is a higher rank, and they went with her.  That being said, I realize that Burnham/Saru/Tilly/Stamets are the only regulars in the credits, so of course it was going to be Tilly.  Then again, you COULD always decide somebody on the bridge was worthy of the main credits.

Last episode the Discovery still had shields up (at some weakened percentage) and Osyraa was able to beam through.  You can't beam through shields.

This episode Michael pulls a dagger out of her leg.  If you have a puncture wound, you always keep what caused the puncture in the wound so you don't have a ton of blood loss (and yes, I acknowledge that she WAS bleeding, so they didn't fake that).

 

Why do the writers keep adding STUPID STUFF like this in the episodes?  Some might argue that I'm being too nit-picky and that it's only one thing per episode, but I feel like each gaffe is a pretty major one.

[TAG42481]

And for all of the people who felt that it was inappropriate for Stamets to characterize Adira as his child, I assume Adira would understand Stamet's intent to humanize himself to the invaders and pass himself off as a parent in the middle of a hostage situation.  I don't think Stamets is going around the ship trying to pass himself off as Adira's father to the rest of the crew under normal circumstances.