S02.E06: A Moment of Doubt

[Guest]

Airs December 15, 2020

Quote

Ethan and Olivia plan to get couples tattoos, but Ethan isn't sure he's ready; Kim and Barry miss their son Joshua and hope to bridge the gap with the older kids; Max and Moriah hang out as just friends but can't deny their feelings for each other.

 

[Jeanne222]

On lordy.  Now Olivia is leading Ethan into a tattoo parlor!  If he wants one fine but to please her when he really doesn't want one is not fine.

Poor guy.  I think he fell in lust with Olivia and her worldly ways.  Second thoughts Ethan?

[Liamsmom617]

 Um..,,that scene with Max and Moriah was beyond cringeworthy and awkward. Yikes!

[PicnicLife77]

Oh man. So much to say. But as cringey as that scene was with Max, I cried, because I could tell Moriah was so genuine.

[Meowwww]

Ugh.  Ethan and Olivia.  I don’t know how she stays with this child.  He’s so oblivious. I can’t believe he’s not acting. He’s been out in the real world for a while.  How is he so oblivious.  

[Spencer Hastings]

Olivia and Ethan’s couples tattoo made me really uneasy.  I’m admittedly not a big fan of the idea in the first place because that’s almost a sure fire way to regret a tattoo in the future, but the idea of getting to one as an attempt to solidify an already broken relationship is insane to me.

Ethan seemed really uncomfortable about it to the point of near tears, but Olivia was so pushy and condescending when he expressed how he was feeling.  From that point it was almost like he had to go through with it, even with all of her “Are you suuurreee you want it?” We talk a lot about the patriarchy and how controlling the men are in these families, and that’s absolutely true, but I can’t imagine how much more outrageous this would seem if Ethan were as pushy as Olivia in this relationship.

I generally like Olivia but this was a lot. 

Edited December 16, 2020 by Spencer Hastings

[seasons]

43 minutes ago, Spencer Hastings said:

Olivia and Ethan’s couples tattoo made me really uneasy.  I’m admittedly not a big fan of the idea in the first place because that’s almost a sure fire way to regret a tattoo in the future, but the idea of getting to one as an attempt to solidify an already broken relationship is insane to me.

Ethan seemed really uncomfortable about it to the point of near tears, but Olivia was so pushy and condescending when he expressed how he was feeling.  From that point it was almost like he had to go through with it, even with all of her “Are you suuurreee you want it?” We talk a lot about the patriarchy and how controlling the men are in these families, and that’s absolutely true, but I can’t imagine how much more outrageous this would seem if Ethan were as pushy as Olivia in this relationship.

I generally like Olivia but this was a lot. 

Agree 1000%. She knows he doesn't want the tattoo, and she broke their deal about not possibly adding onto it in the future. She came across as sort of  haughty and very unlikable to me. And dismissive of his feelings. She signed up for this, she knows his limitations. Great to challenge him gradually, but a tattoo is a big thing for him. Even I can see it.

Edited December 16, 2020 by seasons

[gingerella]

I used to think Olivia was the aggrieved party in this story but she is a fucking piece of work. She only cares about herself, never takes Ethan’s feelings into account, and I’m pretty sure she only married him because it was exciting and felt dangerous to marry this man boy and take him away from his controlling psycho parents. Now she’s stuck with a man boy for a partner and she acts like she is his mommy now, it’s really gross. 

Moriah dresses and presents herself like a backwoods hillbilly slut, which is really sad because I think she’s the complete opposite of a slut. I want to take her aside and give her a make over and tell her that she doesn’t have to wear those clothes to be attractive, she’s pretty just being herself in jeans and a t shirt. She can lose the neon one sleeved spandex ‘Sparkle Baby’ costume tops and just wear normal clothing.  Max...he’s pretty dim witted but seems like he has a good heart so maybe they’re a match made in heaven. 

What I find chilling, is watching the lack of emotion and the smirk expression on both parents faces when they speak of their dead baby that she ran over herself. I mean what mother could ask about that with a smile on her face? What the ever-loving fuck is wrong with these two?!? 

Edited December 16, 2020 by gingerella

[Madding crowd]

I thought I saw a little emotion on Barry’s face but Kim didn’t even look sad talking about her dead son. I know it’s been years but I would never be able to talk about something like that without crying. And why in the world was a baby left by himself close to a road? I know it was their property but a 17 month old needs constant supervision.

I am beginning to think Ethan in more mature than Olivia. Many people don’t want a tattoo and I would get tired of having to prove myself over and over. I’m pretty sure Ethan is mostly supporting her and she doesn’t care about his feelings at all. I disagree that he is a man child. He owns a house and has a job. Running off to get piercings and tattoos does not make one an adult. 

[Spencer Hastings]

1 hour ago, Madding crowd said:

I thought I saw a little emotion on Barry’s face but Kim didn’t even look sad talking about her dead son. I know it’s been years but I would never be able to talk about something like that without crying.

I think that Kim has had to detach herself as much as she can from the situation and that includes masking facial expressions/voice/demeanor.   Disengagement is definitely a form of coping (or not coping) and this is probably the only way she can function.  It’s scary but understandable. 
 

Or there’s just something seriously wrong with her. There’s always that. 

Edited December 16, 2020 by Spencer Hastings

[bichonblitz]

Moriah is so strange. I kept yelling at the TV "Speak Uppppppp"! She needs to show more emotion. What the hell have those parents done to her? I thought she was such a free spirit but she seems locked in her own small world in Cairo, afraid of everything.  

Olivia traveling all over the country with her photography career. I want to know more about that. It doesn't seem like an easy field to get in to because aren't wedding photographers a dime a dozen? Who would want to hire her to travel across the country to photo/video their wedding when they could find someone local? Is she super successful, does she make a great living? Where did she get her training? I still don't like her or her stank attitude and I think her job is fake.  

How does one ever, ever get over running over and killing their own 17 month old baby in their own driveway? I can't even imagine. Talk about hell on earth. 

Edited December 16, 2020 by bichonblitz

[Adeejay]

I couldn't breathe when Kim was telling the story of "how they lost Joshua".  The pain!

Moriah dresses like a hillbilly slut, circa 1988.  

I cannot stand the way Olivia treats Ethan.  She is an annoying, know it all shrew.   I think she does things for attention and to provoke. I don't blame the parents for not wanting her around.   

[gingerella]

6 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

I disagree that he is a man child. He owns a house and has a job.

What is his job? I never see him going to a job, and I only hear them talking about her work as a wedding photographer

[readheaded]

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

What is his job? I never see him going to a job, and I only hear them talking about her work as a wedding photographer

He's a mechanic.  He had on a uniform shirt-I think it was when he came home from work before they went to get tattooed.

[Madding crowd]

2 hours ago, gingerella said:

What is his job? I never see him going to a job, and I only hear them talking about her work as a wedding photographer

He works as a mechanic. They have showed him at work before

[Twopper]

15 hours ago, gingerella said:

Moriah dresses and presents herself like a backwoods hillbilly slut, which is really sad because I think she’s the complete opposite of a slut. I want to take her aside and give her a make over and tell her that she doesn’t have to wear those clothes to be attractive, she’s pretty just being herself in jeans and a t shirt. She can lose the neon one sleeved spandex ‘Sparkle Baby’ costume tops and just wear normal clothing.

Can I help?  I want her to get a different shade of lipstick and lose a few of those eyelashes.  I kept pausing and rewinding but I couldn't quite make out what was written on the orange top she wore to string the lights.  Money? Honey?  And I am really over the off the shoulders and one shoulder look.    I nearly fell off the couch when she said she had to take ballroom and ballet classes with her mother and 60 year old women. 

 

7 hours ago, Spencer Hastings said:

I think that Kim has had to detach herself as much as she can from the situation and that includes masking facial expressions/voice/demeanor.   Disengagement is definitely a form of coping (or not coping) and this is probably the only way she can function.  It’s scary but understandable. 
 

Or there’s just something seriously wrong with her. There’s always that. 

I think it is both. 

 

3 hours ago, bichonblitz said:

How does one ever, ever get over running over and killing their own 17 month old baby in their own driveway? I can't even imagine. Talk about hell on earth. 

Seriously. I would be a total basket case for the rest of my life. 

 

9 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

I thought I saw a little emotion on Barry’s face but Kim didn’t even look sad talking about her dead son. I know it’s been years but I would never be able to talk about something like that without crying. And why in the world was a baby left by himself close to a road? I know it was their property but a 17 month old needs constant supervision.

I am beginning to think Ethan in more mature than Olivia. Many people don’t want a tattoo and I would get tired of having to prove myself over and over. I’m pretty sure Ethan is mostly supporting her and she doesn’t care about his feelings at all. I disagree that he is a man child. He owns a house and has a job. Running off to get piercings and tattoos does not make one an adult. 

Barry  was probably already strange  before the accident, but I really think all his emotional strength--however much he has--has gone into trying to keep Kim from becoming overwhelmed with guilt and maybe from keeping his mouth shut about someone not watching the child more closely.  I still cannot stand the woman.  I am glad she finally gave us dates about when it happened as her opening line "it's been probably ten years since we lost our son" really annoyed me.  If that had happened to me, the date would be etched into my head forever. 

The tattoo thing seemed more to me to be another way to annoy his parents even if he isn't seeing them.  I see it as another message Olivia is sending to his parents--especially Kim.  I think Ethan tends to go along to get along.  I do wonder about their finances, but as adults the get some money from tlc.  For a young couple, that is a nice starter home that is well furnished.  Baby grands are not cheap. 

[PicnicLife77]

While I'm glad they are addressing Joshua, I really hope they are sticking true to whatever would be "natural" to them, but it already feels exploitative. Would they have been wandering around in the forest smiling about organizing a visit to his gravesite if they weren't on TV?

[Twopper]

4 minutes ago, abracadabra said:

While I'm glad they are addressing Joshua, I really hope they are sticking true to whatever would be "natural" to them, but it already feels exploitative. Would they have been wandering around in the forest smiling about organizing a visit to his gravesite if they weren't on TV?

I had much rather they had a scene of the parents at the grave, followed by a brief explanation.  Between the conversation in the woods and the little girls bringing up the subject, it seemed painfully scripted.  and unnecessary. 

and if you really want Ethan and Olivia to come, have Micah or Moriah text them.  or get one of those friends who are spying on your older children to tell them.   This parental unit makes me stabby, stabby, stabby.

 

[b2H]

I am not a fan of tattoos for myself, but what they had chosen together to do was not all that ridiculous.  It was rather cute actually.  She gave Ethan more than half a dozen chances to back out.  He is an adult and can make his own decisions and usually does.  Ethan does need to get out of his bubble and he is doing a fine job of it, but won’t do it without a fair amount of convincing.

I am glad they are deciding to take the trip together.  She will be in her element and he will be there with her to see a whole different side of her.  Could be an interesting story.

I agree that Moriah could use an age-appropriate stylist.  But I am happy she and Max decided to give it another go.  Maybe he has a sister that could be helpful....

[Jeanne222]

Mariah definitely needs a makeover.  Her cloths look cheap and unfashionable.  I think all of that was a TLC moment.

I also think Moriah has bad skin and is trying to distract attention from it!

I thought Barry and Kim did ok with their conversations about their baby boy.  Pain never goes away but mentally healthy people find a way to carry on for their families and loved ones.  There are all kinds of pain in this world.

I never liked Olivia but she seemed to have a self reflecting moment in the kitchen during the tatoo conversation.

I can't imagine she makes enough on photography to afford those trips to CA. I suspect the show is paying for them because we can only handle so much Cairo!

[toomuchtv]

How many times can two people say “working on our marriage” during one show??? And Moriah needing to pray right after her first kiss? That poor girl needs some therapy and a wardrobe makeover. I guess the clothes are her “rebellion” but every outfit really doesn’t need to look 3 sizes too small on an already slim girl.

[VioletNevermind]

Whew, this show is a lot every single week.  Moriah absolutely screams daddy issues.  Well, parent issues.  I feel sorry for her.  I think she’s a nice girl who means well, but she needs some professional help to understand, process, and recover from her background.  It could be argued that this needs to happen way before she enters a serious romantic relationship, but I know that’s unrealistic.  It’s just sad to see such a young person in so much pain.

As for Kim’s attitude while discussing the poor little boy who died, wow.  This entire show is one big wow to me.  I wouldn’t choose to monetize my baby son’s death OR my other kids’ pain, but different strokes, I guess.  I understand that these terrible things happen and moms in general endure enough pain and blame without others adding even more to the pile, but I can’t imagine allowing my toddler to run around unsupervised anywhere near the huge vehicle that I’m operating.  Honestly, I’m not entirely sure that Kim is “okay” half the time.

Olivia is dead wrong for pressuring Ethan to get a couples tattoo with her.  A tattoo is an extremely personal choice/commitment and she shouldn’t make him feel bad for not wanting one.  Tattoos are not for everyone.  A simple “No, thank you” should be enough.  Olivia is stuck at around age 15, getting excited about “disobeying” parents.  Time to grow up, honey.  When you’re in your 20s and living on your own, you really can do what you want without asking your parents- but the consequences of those choices are yours to deal with as well.  

Edited December 17, 2020 by Suzy Rhapsody

[kylies-lips]

Please add me to Moriah's glam squad. She is a pretty young woman who has the worst possible taste in fashion. 

Alright, I'll say it. Something about Kim's description of Joshua's death doesn't sit right with me. I get being detached from an extremely traumatic event but she seems to have not processed his death at all. I would also bet that the family dynamic probably changed dramatically after his death and Kim turned into a major control freak at that point!

I was lowkey disappointed that Ethan got that tattoo! A couple that has mentioned several times they are "fighting" for their marriage should not be getting matching tattoos! Especially when one of them really doesn't want one. When Olivia eventually leaves Ethan it will be devastating for him. He wants to please her so much and I wonder what will be the thing that eventually takes him beyond his comfort zone with her?

Moriah and Max were incredibly cringeworthy. How old is Max he seems alot older than Mariah who is only 17 at the time this as filmed I believed. Also, does Moriah have any girlfriends? It just seems concerning to me that she meets Max at a party then immediately clings to him. The way she talks about him on social media is so intense. It's beyond puppy love!

[Madding crowd]

I don’t understand why a wedding photographer needs to go to California to shoot a video of herself as an ad for business. People getting married want to see examples of weddings you have photographed, not pictures of the photographer running around LA. I didn’t like the mom like way she told Ethan maybe he could go along. Then she said she will be super busy all week- doing what?

[CloseThisAccount]

I thought the scenes with Max & Moriah, from hanging the lights to waltzing to kissing, were lovely. Yes, she's dressed ridiculously & her make-up is a mess and she's emotionally unprepared for just about everything.  But she's a sweet girl who seems to be finding incredible strength to tear herself away from her toxic background & Max seems nice enough & smitten. I hope they're able to have fun & help each other mature safely away from Kim and Barry.  Is a girl's wardrobe and make-up really enough for us to wish unhappiness upon her or start calling her a slut? Do we really need to morally police girls' & women's appearances like that? Doesn't that sound like stuff Kim & Barry would do?

Edited December 23, 2020 by TakeAPinotGrigio

[CloseThisAccount]

On 12/16/2020 at 8:47 PM, Jeanne222 said:

I can't imagine she makes enough on photography to afford those trips to CA. I suspect the show is paying for them because we can only handle so much Cairo!

Talented Fundie wedding videographer/photographers can make good money.  Other fundamentalists won't use "worldly" photogs/videogs cos of the SIN & most fundie kids are educated like the Plath kids (picture a photography class akin to Kim's ballet class).  If Olivia knows what she's doing she's a giant fish in a small pond.

[emmawoodhouse]

What fundie would want Olivia shooting their wedding? She's made it pretty clear that she's left that world behind. I think this entire trip, as ill-advised as it is, is all about her branching out to non-fundie clientele.

[mittsigirl]

On 12/16/2020 at 6:17 PM, Twopper said:

Can I help?  I want her to get a different shade of lipstick and lose a few of those eyelashes.  I kept pausing and rewinding but I couldn't quite make out what was written on the orange top she wore to string the lights.  Money? Honey?  And I am really over the off the shoulders and one shoulder look.    I nearly fell off the couch when she said she had to take ballroom and ballet classes with her mother and 60 year old women. 

 

I think it is both. 

 

Seriously. I would be a total basket case for the rest of my life. 

 

Barry  was probably already strange  before the accident, but I really think all his emotional strength--however much he has--has gone into trying to keep Kim from becoming overwhelmed with guilt and maybe from keeping his mouth shut about someone not watching the child more closely.  I still cannot stand the woman.  I am glad she finally gave us dates about when it happened as her opening line "it's been probably ten years since we lost our son" really annoyed me.  If that had happened to me, the date would be etched into my head forever. 

The tattoo thing seemed more to me to be another way to annoy his parents even if he isn't seeing them.  I see it as another message Olivia is sending to his parents--especially Kim.  I think Ethan tends to go along to get along.  I do wonder about their finances, but as adults the get some money from tlc.  For a young couple, that is a nice starter home that is well furnished.  Baby grands are not cheap. 

I got very sick with a rare disease and was not expected to live, but fought so hard because I had small children at home still. 5 years later, I lost one of those children to a rare cancer. I remember every minute of being with her while she fought so hard to live, remember every detail of the funeral service that I planned by myself. I now, and forever will, live with 'survivors guilt', because I should have died and she should still be alive. I am surprised at the little amount of emotion that Kim has shown, because 18 years later, I can still cry over my daughter every single day. She just seems to be so cold and distant over it.

[the-grey-lady]

Kim: I want all my kids to be able to come to me and tell me about their lives.

Also Kim: I kicked my minor daughter out of the house, refuse to let my older kids see the younger ones without sulking in a corner, and have an army of spies who keep me apprised of the older kids' every move.

[emmawoodhouse]

39 minutes ago, the-grey-lady said:

Kim: I want all my kids to be able to come to me and tell me about their lives.

Also Kim: I kicked my minor daughter out of the house, refuse to let my older kids see the younger ones without sulking in a corner, and have an army of spies who keep me apprised of the older kids' every move.

She doesn't get it, does she? Everything she does pushes Ethan, Micah, and Moriah further away. 

[Ziggy]

2 hours ago, the-grey-lady said:

Kim: I want all my kids to be able to come to me and tell me about their lives.

Also Kim: I kicked my minor daughter out of the house, refuse to let my older kids see the younger ones without sulking in a corner, and have an army of spies who keep me apprised of the older kids' every move.

 

2 hours ago, emmawoodhouse said:

She doesn't get it, does she? Everything she does pushes Ethan, Micah, and Moriah further away. 

I still remember that superior look on her face when she told Micah and Moriah that she had people who told her things about them.  I thought Moriah looked like she was going to be sick.

[ethalfrida]

I hope they explored beautiful Joshua Tree. As far as Kim explaining LA to him how would she know? I just hate those blanket opinions on this area. 

Joshua Tree is an artist haven. We spent a weekend with artist Noah Purifoy before he passed, along with CAAM curators and admin. Got a chance to explore inside some of these magnificent structures created totally from desert found objects

 

[Quof]

On 12/16/2020 at 9:01 PM, abracadabra said:

While I'm glad they are addressing Joshua, I really hope they are sticking true to whatever would be "natural" to them, but it already feels exploitative

Yeah, because the younger children just randomly said "Mommy, tell us about Joshua". 

Scripting/prompting these children to say those lines is beyond horrible.  

[Back Atcha]

On 12/26/2020 at 2:43 PM, mittsigirl said:

I am surprised at the little amount of emotion that Kim has shown,

Something VERY BAD must have happened to Kim in her formative years.  Maybe someday she'll feel exploitive enough to write a memoir...with the truth.

 

[emmawoodhouse]

I don't think Kim knows the truth anymore.

[Bethanne]

For someone who is raising 8 children, Kim has absolutely zero parenting instincts. Woman, you have 20+ years on these young adults, AND you have actually lived in the outside world, unlike them. Quit "allowing" them to come to you on "their" terms. YOU are the parent, and you are the one who should be unconditionally loving them. They are still CHILDREN. Don't just say you're there for them, be a parent and BE there for them. Text them every single day how you love them and want them back, whoever they might be as people. God, I just weep for those poor young adult children and want to fly to Buttcrack, GA and just love and support them. I can't imagine anything worse than my older teens not knowing without a doubt that my home is a safe place for them to land. 

Regarding LA, the look of disgust that crossed Olivia's face when Ethan said he wanted to be a third wheel on her vapid California binge-drinking girls trip with Liv told me absolutely everything I need to know about how she percieves him and her marriage. She can up and move to the west coast and leave poor Ethan to his sweet little house and his his newsboy hat, jazz piano, and junk cars. He would be much better off in the long run. 

This episode alone showed me very clearly that selfish, control-freak Kim is a 45 year old version of Olivia and dorky and emotionally-unavailable Barry is a 45 year old version of Ethan. Honestly, poor sweet Issac and the youngest blonde girl with the twee name are the only likable people in that entire house. Don't even get me started on Lydia. "Mummy, Papa, after I churn the butter and highlight my bible, can we maybe talk about whether or not I can have contact with the outside world?" Please. It's been what, a year that your family has been TLC famewhores? Drop the act. 

Oh, and Kim, quit profiting off the story of your dead son. "Girls, earlier you were asking about the baby I ran over and killed. Let's talk about it right this minute, even though all you want to be doing is giggling and eating cheetos." Mmmmmkay, Kim and TLC. 

Edited February 1, 2021 by Bethanne