S07.E05: Monumental Challenge

[PrincessPurrsALot]

Quote

The past two months have seen so many changes, not just in Charleston but around the world. A global pandemic. Schools, restaurants, and other public spaces closed. Residents asked to quarantine at home. Not to mention, political rallies and other protests. 

Things to expect: Monuments coming down in Charleston, cast members going out the second restrictions are lifted, and a discussion of Kathryn's social media racism. 

Site rules to remember:

• We can discuss social hot topic issues that are raised on the show.  As always, all discussion must be civil toward your fellow posters.
• We do not discuss political parties, politicians or their supporters.  This includes veiled comments using nicknames. It is off-topic and leads us down a bad path.  Let's try to enjoy this show for what it is, reality TV.

Questions? PM @PrincessPurrsALot. We do not discuss mod actions or debate mod directives in the forums. Thanks, my wee Charmers! 

Original air date 2020.12.03

[LibertarianSlut]

Craig’s new girlfriend seems pretty.  My only question is whether Craig and Shep get a discount by only hiring one babysitter for both girls when they leave them home alone.  

[bosawks]

Were Austen’s sister’s facial  expressions always this entertaining?

[FlyingEgret]

2 minutes ago, bosawks said:

Were Austen’s sister’s facial  expressions always this entertaining?

Love that she stuck up for the single mom to his face, stopped him in his tracks

[jaybird2]

i know most of y'all don't like madison but i love her

[rideashire]

As someone who spent nearly the whole year in her house because of rona it's wild to see people planning parties and going out to eat (with their older parents, too?!) like there's no pandemic, when I'm pretty sure it wasn't over in June....I knew it happened but seeing it with my own delicate eyeballs, and how they just assume it's fine to have a party is baffling. I shouldn't be shocked though since I live in SC and know damn well what happens here.

 

Edited December 4, 2020 by rideashire

[LibertarianSlut]

I have to disagree with Leva and Danni—I find nothing racist about the monkey emoji.  I do think it’s incredibly racist to look at that emoji and equate it with a certain race of people though.  

[bosawks]

6 minutes ago, jaybird2 said:

i know most of y'all don't like madison but i love her

I would like to watch Madison suck out all of Pringle’s soul, if that counts....

Edited December 4, 2020 by bosawks

[LibertarianSlut]

What I find interesting is that this episode shows that none of the cast—those who quarantined and those who didn’t—got the virus by the time this was filmed in June.  

ETA:  Approximately three months passed, and one cast member got it 

Edited December 4, 2020 by LibertarianSlut

[SunnyBeBe]

11 minutes ago, rideashire said:

As someone who spent nearly the whole year in her house because of rona it's wild to see people planning parties and going out to eat (with their older parents, too?!) like there's no pandemic, when I'm pretty sure it wasn't over in June....I knew it happened but seeing it with my own delicate eyeballs, and how they just assume it's fine to have a party is baffling. I shouldn't be shocked though since I live in SC and know damn well what happens here.

 

Right. I tuned in late, but wasn’t that Madison on the phone with Kathryn? She was talking about a birthday party for Austen....Omg! My response would have been WTF?  We’re in a pandemic. A birthday party is crazy. Do it next year. 

[jaybird2]

3 minutes ago, rideashire said:

As someone who spent nearly the whole year in her house because of rona it's wild to see people planning parties and going out to eat (with their older parents, too?!) like there's no pandemic, when I'm pretty sure it was still happening in June....I knew it happened but seeing it with my own delicate eyeballs, and how they just assume it's fine to have a party is baffling. I shouldn't be shocked though since I live in SC and know damn well what happens here.

5

well i live in ny state, 2 hrs from the city.  we're having increases in covid cases, over 50 a day in my community.  we are  higher now than we were at the worst in the spring.  people have become lax.  we also have an influx of people from the city which doesn't help.

[Neurochick]

Ugh, why is this useless idiot still on the show?  If Thomas isn’t a main character, then Kathryn shouldn’t be either.  She’s always been useless.

BTW, COVID is everywhere, not just NYC.

Edited December 4, 2020 by Neurochick

[rideashire]

1 minute ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Right. I tuned in late, but wasn’t that Madison on the phone with Kathryn? She was talking about a birthday party for Austen....Omg! My response would have been WTF?  We’re in a pandemic. A birthday party is crazy. Do it next year. 

Yep, having a birthday party for austin "just an excuse to all get together" and "on a private island only reachable by boat" as if that's somehow safer. No, Madison. The safe way would be to not have a party at all. 

[chenoa333]

I could do without the gaggle of kids becoming regulars on this already failing franchise. 

[bosawks]

If your expectation is that Katherine be a bigger person you are destined for disappointment.

I’m beginning to think that Madison is organizing this party for Austen on the off chance that he gets “the corona” and dies.

I think we’re watching a murder about to take place.

[RedDelicious]

Austen is a f’n douchebag nightmare.

ETA: Continuing my thought here - Austen was smirking and it seemed like he was visibly trying to control his own laughter from the outset of the call. That in and of itself was infuriating and insulting, regardless of the fact that he seemed completely oblivious to the gravity of telling his girlfriend who has a small child that he caught the virus. AND THEN he had the ordacity (tm: R. Singer) to turn it around on Madison, saying he could have caught it from her because she owns a salon. He's a total DICK, especially trying to gaslight Madison in that manner. I want to wipe that smirk right off his face and knock his ass into next week.

My jury is still out on John Pringle, but at least he seems to be a somewhat responsible person and in my opinion a far better option than Austen.

Edited December 4, 2020 by RedDelicious

[rideashire]

Shep negative and "everybody else is positive", well imagine that. Listen, I'm not cheering that anyone got sick, but this whole episode was like a what not to do during a pandemic tutorial. We got shep at the gym, everyone eating out like restaurants were going out of style, not a mask in sight, parties planned, apparently craig and austin at the bar everynight if we go by madison....yeah I'm not shocked. Only surprised Shep somehow got lucky.

Edited December 4, 2020 by rideashire

[LibertarianSlut]

I object to this show’s intellectual dishonesty vis a vis the Calhoun statue.  Sure, show the meeting about whether to take it down if that is what is going on in Charleston at the time.  If the citizens get together and agree to move a statue to a museum, I could see the argument in favor of that, even though I think it should stay up, whether one agrees with the man or not.  Maybe especially if one disagrees with the man.

One of the things that I realized when studying for my BA in History, is that history is there.  It can’t be changed.  We can learn from it. 

When my husband and I went to the other Charleston—Charleston, WV—we sought out the statue at the capitol of a famous Confederate general, as well as African Zion Baptist Church, the church of one of the earliest black leaders in the US.  If either of them had been taken away, I would be less educated.  And I believe in education.

Presenting just one side of this subject matter is so objectionable to me.  I see exactly what Bravo is up to.  Giving us the Reader’s Digest version and only one side so that our minds are made up for us.  I certainly don’t tune in to get schooled...by Andy Cohen and his proxy, Whitney Sudler-Smith.

That lunch was appalling to me.  Everyone at the table was so self-righteous about Kathryn’s great-great-(however many greats) grandfather.  How do they know what their ancestors have done and what they have stood for?  Kathryn is no more responsible for people who said and did things before she was born than they are.  I learned this from the law:  judge the act, not the man.  

And I think it’s absurd to equate 170 year old stances with today’s.  If we go back 500 years, there was slavery on the Barbary Coast.  Thousands of years ago, the Jews were enslaved.  Why aren’t they talking about that?  It’s insulting and rather pointless to me to boil civil rights and slavery down to not just one episode of a reality show, but a few minutes of one.  

[LibertarianSlut]

It’s interesting the amount of coverage that went toward the protesting and rioting that happened in Charleston.

[nexxie]

Wow, it’s so strange to look back at people thinking covid was pretty much over back in June. Sigh...

[Lassus]

I do like the fact that Craig has to be spoken to like he's 7 years old by the actual adults he works with.

[Lassus]

I'm liking Austen's sister.

[nexxie]

Interesting to meet Madison’s mom and sister - that scene showed a different side of her.

[goofygirl]

Yep, you know it's over when you FALL ASLEEP  10 minutes into the episode.  I did wake up for a minute wondering why they were planning a birthday party in the middle of a pandemic.  But hey, I just  work in healthcare. What do I know?

[Lassus]

 

8 hours ago, LibertarianSlut said:

When my husband and I went to the other Charleston—Charleston, WV—we sought out the statue at the capitol of a famous Confederate general, as well as African Zion Baptist Church, the church of one of the earliest black leaders in the US.  If either of them had been taken away, I would be less educated.

There is a difference between education and honor.  The former does not require the latter.

Edited December 4, 2020 by Lassus

[Lassus]

Madison, if you KNOW what Austen has been doing risky COVID-wise, and still hang out with him, that's on you.  

[LakeGal]

I found it hard to believe that Danni knew absolutely nothing about Kathryn's Calhoun past.  I thought the whole Thomas wanting to breed with her because of her name was a big storyline.

[Axie]

56 minutes ago, LibertarianSlut said:

I object to this show’s intellectual dishonesty vis a vis the Calhoun statue.  Sure, show the meeting about whether to take it down if that is what is going on in Charleston at the time.  If the citizens get together and agree to move a statue to a museum, I could see the argument in favor of that, even though I think it should stay up, whether one agrees with the man or not.  Maybe especially if one disagrees with the man.

One of the things that I realized when studying for my BA in History, is that history is there.  It can’t be changed.  We can learn from it. 

When my husband and I went to the other Charleston—Charleston, WV—we sought out the statue at the capitol of a famous Confederate general, as well as African Zion Baptist Church, the church of one of the earliest black leaders in the US.  If either of them had been taken away, I would be less educated.  And I believe in education.

Presenting just one side of this subject matter is so objectionable to me.  I see exactly what Bravo is up to.  Giving us the Reader’s Digest version and only one side so that our minds are made up for us.  I certainly don’t tune in to get schooled...by Andy Cohen and his proxy, Whitney Sudler-Smith.

That lunch was appalling to me.  Everyone at the table was so self-righteous about Kathryn’s great-great-(however many greats) grandfather.  How do they know what their ancestors have done and what they have stood for?  Kathryn is no more responsible for people who said and did things before she was born than they are.  I learned this from the law:  judge the act, not the man.  

And I think it’s absurd to equate 170 year old stances with today’s.  If we go back 500 years, there was slavery on the Barbary Coast.  Thousands of years ago, the Jews were enslaved.  Why aren’t they talking about that?  It’s insulting and rather pointless to me to boil civil rights and slavery down to not just one episode of a reality show, but a few minutes of one.  

Excellent post!  Couldn't agree more!

[SunnyBeBe]

I’m not sure how much I can say about the civil war statues and racism and stay within the confines of the rules of the board, so, I’ll just be succinct and say that the show was easy on the impact that systemic racism has had in the south. (I’m in NC)

Edited December 4, 2020 by SunnyBeBe

[eleanorofaquitaine]

I'm glad that the show didn't whitewash or downplay the horrors of the nation's slaveowning past. It was good to hear the words of both a descendent of enslaved people and a descendent of a slave owner - and that both had reached a consensus that such individuals do not need to occupy places of honor in Charleston's public spaces.

Most of these guys are such man-children. I don't really love Madison but Austen's complaints about her wanting to take control of her life were silly. His sister was right to give him a hard time.

[For Cereals]

3 hours ago, LibertarianSlut said:

I have to disagree with Leva and Danni—I find nothing racist about the monkey emoji.  I do think it’s incredibly racist to look at that emoji and equate it with a certain race of people though.  

Except it’s not about the emoji.  Kathryn probably didn’t have bad intentions because she’s just clueless and yeah, she doesn’t have to ever think about such things, but given the context of the conversation, it was not wise and I’m really trying hard to keep it to the episode.  

I’m also good with any and every monument to slavery and the confederacy coming down and I’ll leave it at that.

 

 

[aghst]

4 hours ago, LibertarianSlut said:

I have to disagree with Leva and Danni—I find nothing racist about the monkey emoji.  I do think it’s incredibly racist to look at that emoji and equate it with a certain race of people though.  

Because it's a common racist trope, to compare black people to monkeys or gorillas.  It's completely disingenuous for Kathryn to say that she used that emoji because it had a cute pose or whatever.  If she's claiming ignorance about the racist associations of that emoji, how is that any better than admitting she knew it was racist or interpreted by many people as racist?

In Europe, people who own their racism toss bananas onto the soccer pitch when there are black players.

But the Gwynn's manager said she let Kathryn go because there was a lot more objectionable thing Kathryn said in the chats than just that emoji.

[aghst]

4 hours ago, rideashire said:

Yep, having a birthday party for austin "just an excuse to all get together" and "on a private island only reachable by boat" as if that's somehow safer. No, Madison. The safe way would be to not have a party at all. 

Well that's what this show is largely about and these social gatherings are organized just for the purpose of creating content or scenes for the show.

A few of the cast members may go out all the time but they make it appear like everyone in the cast is either going out or going over to other cast members, virtually every day.

If Austen didn't test positive, they probably would have gone through with the party, largely instigated by the show.

And in real life, by June and July, people who had quarantined for 3-4 weeks in April and May were ready to go back out there.  So there have been weddings, church choir events, large parties, bar hopping, etc. in places where these public venues were open including for indoor dining and drinking, which probably included South Carolina.

So they do probably reflect what the summer was like in Charleston and if not, I wouldn't put it beneath Bravo to urge them on to mingle.  They weren't going to show the cast zooming each other all the time.

I guess they were allowed to film during the summer in Charleston whereas in many jurisdictions, I don't think TV and movie production had resumed.  Many shows were going to resume in the fall and around now but with the current surge, maybe productions have paused again.

 

 

[aghst]

That scene at the park, beneath the statue, it seem they were just having a discussion there.  Maybe a couple of local politicians who would have a vote but they were having an argument about what the statue meant to them.

It's interesting that the only regular cast members who were there were Danni and Leva, who's new to the show and Madyson, who's appeared a few times on the show but isn't really a regular.  But Danni is a minor cast member and Leva may become a major character but is new.

And two of the people who spoke at length about the statue were the two black women who've never been on the show and for all we know, never will be again.

Around this time, because of the protests, there was a lot of momentum about taking down statues all over the country but there was also pushback too.  Did the absence of the other cast members indicate that they didn't agree the statue should be taken down or just wanted to avoid what could have been a controversial scene?

[bosawks]

NBCUniversal owns BRAVO so why was the news clip they showed from Fox News?

That seemed odd to me.

[LibertarianSlut]

 

6 hours ago, Adgirl said:

There are no statues in Benedict Arnold's honor.  There are no monuments to traitors to the republic in any country. Sherman burned Atlanta 

I felt the show did a poor job of explaining the outcry against John C Calhoun.  I’m not sure what the evidence is that he was a traitor with regard to the Civil War.  He died over a decade before it began.  I got the feeling the network wasn’t even concerned with that part, which is troubling.  

I think my point stands about honoring the potential good done by those who have also committed bad acts, though I will be the first to admit the area is not black and white, but instead fraught with idiosyncrasies that can become learning opportunities.  The fact that there is a monument for Benedict Arnold in New York speaks to that notion.  

Maybe this sounds naive, but I want to learn everything I can firsthand—not through someone else’s lens—and make my mind up when all the facts are in.  I’ve been very surprised as to where I came out on issues in the past after getting the full story.  

Edited December 4, 2020 by LibertarianSlut

[LibertarianSlut]

4 hours ago, aghst said:

Around this time, because of the protests, there was a lot of momentum about taking down statues all over the country but there was also pushback too.  Did the absence of the other cast members indicate that they didn't agree the statue should be taken down or just wanted to avoid what could have been a controversial scene?

I think this is a good question, and at the heart of the problem with the way this issue presented.

I think it is more likely than not that at least one regular cast member was not adverse to taking down the statue of Calhoun.  I think attitudes could have manifested across the spectrum from apathy to “leave it up” or some offshoot of the famous “I’m not going to waste my time worrying about these...statues,” but Bravo only included the opinions that fit their narrative, even if they had to go outside the pool of cast members to obtain views that were in lockstep with one another.  

It’s curious to me that over half of the cast did not give so much as a talking head regarding their opinion on a matter that dominated the episode.

[DrSparkles]

Um, they need to add the women at Neva’s lunch to the show stat! + Austen’s sister.

Edited December 4, 2020 by DrSparkles

[Lassus]

1 hour ago, LibertarianSlut said:

There is a monument for Benedict Arnold though, in New York.

Equalizing this to a Calhoun statue is really pushing it.

Quote

The Boot Monument is an American Revolutionary War memorial located in Saratoga National Historical Park, New York. It commemorates Major General Benedict Arnold's service at the Battles of Saratoga in the Continental Army, but does not name him.

 

Edited December 4, 2020 by Lassus

[Lassus]

8 hours ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

Most of these guys are such man-children. I don't really love Madison but Austen's complaints about her wanting to take control of her life were silly. His sister was right to give him a hard time.

I feel like I often try and defend Austen out of some form of misplaced pity, but that exchange was just incredibly pathetic at best and actually evil at worst on his part.

[Lassus]

50 minutes ago, LibertarianSlut said:

It’s curious to me that over half of the cast did not give so much as a talking head regarding their opinion on a matter that dominated the episode.

I agree this was curious; but it was - I'm sure - simply brand protection on BRAVO's part, a money decision based on the current market.  

[bosawks]

12 minutes ago, Lassus said:

I agree this was curious; but it was - I'm sure - simply brand protection on BRAVO's part, a money decision based on the current market.  

Maybe they were on quarantine?

I mean, probably not, this show and sewers run in the same general direction.....

Edited December 4, 2020 by bosawks

[LibertarianSlut]

1 minute ago, Lassus said:

I agree this was curious; but it was - I'm sure - simply brand protection on BRAVO's part, a money decision based on the current market.  

I’m quite sure you’re right.  And that’s where we lose the honesty of a candid reality show, which I find unappealing. 

17 minutes ago, Lassus said:

Equalizing this to a Calhoun statue is really pushing it.

I’m not trying to equalize a Calhoun statue with anything.  This was a radical, unique guy.  He was rare.  I’m not going to touch that.  

I’m only advancing the idea that it is a fact that there are statues and monuments to all kinds of people—not just the “good” (whoever they are, and whatever that means)—a fact which was in dispute.  Leva said that the issue was black and white and I think she’s wrong.  

I think this is important with regard to whether to remove a statue of a man who may not have come out on “the right side of history,” as was debated on the show.  At that lunch they filmed on the show, the women were agreeing we need to be more like Germany, where German citizens are not allowed to fly certain flags.  My opinion is that would be a huge step backwards to ban certain symbols, as I value freedom of expression and speech.  

And I think I’ll leave it there.  I think this is a show that is sort of collapsing in on itself, and just as a slight uptick occurred, it went downhill.  I’m not that interested in these people, I think I said all I need to say on the topic, I’m not going to “watch what happens” with them, I’ve opined, and it’s all good.  

[Lassus]

17 minutes ago, LibertarianSlut said:

At that lunch they filmed on the show, the women were agreeing we need to be more like Germany, where German citizens are not allowed to fly certain flags.  My opinion is that would be a huge step backwards to ban certain symbols, as I value freedom of expression and speech.

However, the Confederate vs. Nazi flag thing wasn't really the main point of this episode, and doesn't actually address the honoring historical figures that were a massive part of the history with public statues.  Which Germany ain't doing.  Is it just different?

 

Edited December 4, 2020 by Lassus

[divsc]

15 hours ago, rideashire said:

Shep negative and "everybody else is positive", well imagine that. Listen, I'm not cheering that anyone got sick, but this whole episode was like a what not to do during a pandemic tutorial. We got shep at the gym, everyone eating out like restaurants were going out of style, not a mask in sight, parties planned, apparently craig and austin at the bar everynight if we go by madison....yeah I'm not shocked. Only surprised Shep somehow got lucky.

Yea, I hate to say it but I'm in Charleston and the episode accurately shows how the pandemic has been treated here. It's like there is no covid. Even though our number of positive cases is really high. Gyms have been open for months, bars, restaurants, no social distancing. Most of us are back at work, not working remotely, and it's terrifying. Coworkers come to work with no mask on all casual, "Oh I went to a wedding last weekend and the whole wedding party now has covid" and no one even sends them home. What was depicted on the episode is shockingly and scary all too real. No one even acts like it's bad. (And I say this as a former New Yorker where many things are still in lock down mode.) Very, very different governors and leadership.

Edited December 4, 2020 by divsc
typo

[bichonblitz]

Ugh, Danni is so weird.  When Leva was on the phone saying she was in regular contact with Kathryn Danni was near tears. WTF? She acts like a jealous scorned lover. If Kathryn hasn't texted back or called Danni back after her messages for months then she doesn't give a damn about you, Danni. Get a life!

 

[RedDelicious]

2 hours ago, LibertarianSlut said:

Maybe this sounds naive, but I want to learn everything I can firsthand—not through someone else’s lens—and make my mind up when all the facts are in.  I’ve been very surprised as to where I came out on issues in the past after getting the full story.  

Agree. I think we need to honor history in order to educate ourselves for the future. Revisionist history and cancel culture does us no favors.

8 hours ago, Adgirl said:

I think Kathryn is a perfect representation of what those statues represent in the 21st century...ignorance, racism, unearned wealth.

Judging by the broken shutters on Kathryn's family home in S1, I don't believe she is a product of unearned wealth. I think she is an ignorant fool, but I don't know if Kathryn Dennis is racist. To me the little monkey meant monkey business. It wasn't the best choice and I think it was completely blown out of proportion for the narrative, which even that didn't seem to phase her.

16 minutes ago, Lassus said:

However, the Confederate vs. Nazi flag thing wasn't really the main point of this episode, and doesn't actually address the honoring historical figures that were a massive part of the history with public statues.  Which Germany ain't doing.  Is it just different?

Germany (and most of Europe) ain't doing it because as a designated unconstitutional organization, it is a criminal offense to display Nazi symbolism. This isn't that.

12 minutes ago, divsc said:

What was depicted on the episode is shockingly and scary all too real. No one even acts like it's bad. (And I say this as a former New Yorker where many things are still in lock down mode.) Very, very different governors and leadership.

It has nothing to do with governors and leadership and everything to do with personal responsibility. New York was a massive, massive hot zone regardless of lockdowns and mandates. I saw it firsthand. I was there and I've worked in healthcare my entire career. The people on the show clearly didn't give a shit. Not even the self-righteous lunch ladies wore masks.

[Lassus]

1 minute ago, RedDelicious said:

Germany (and most of Europe) ain't doing it because as a designated unconstitutional organization, it is a criminal offense to display Nazi symbolism. This isn't that.

So, it's just different.  Pedantically.

[RedDelicious]

56 minutes ago, LibertarianSlut said:

I’m only advancing the idea that it is a fact that there are statues and monuments to all kinds of people—not just the “good” (whoever they are, and whatever that means)—a fact which was in dispute.  Leva said that the issue was black and white and I think she’s wrong.  

For example, there is a bust of Margaret Sanger, a known racist and eugenicist, at the Smithsonian.

[RedDelicious]

Just now, Lassus said:

So, it's just different.  Pedantically.

It's different because the Confederate States of America, or the Confederacy as it were, are not a designated unconstitutional organization.