S15.E20: Carry On (Series Finale)

[ahrtee]

2 minutes ago, Terese said:

Most negative reactions I have are more about the season than the finale. The finale simply fit the final piece into a very uninspired, rather vindictive story.

My principal problem was with recreating Heaven as this perfect place without want or cares. An eternity without struggles or accomplishments, sadness or joy and little do but visit others. How does this literal eternal peace satisfy anyone, especially Sam and Dean. Or Bobby, who feared a rocking chair, is now content with sitting on a stoop drinking a beer for ETERNITY. It's a child's understanding on Heaven.

Looks fine on the surface, perhaps; but like everything else with this season, you barely scratch beneath the surface and it falls apart. An eternity of meaningless, quasi-existence where you get everything you want sounds like Hell. 

That was actually what Dean and Sam were fighting against in the Apocalypse.  Remember that it promised eternal peace and happiness for everyone (and I would assume even the half the earth that was killed--because they'd wind up in heaven and happy).  That was even Cas's final line to Dean in Swan Song, when Dean was angry that his reward for saving the earth was "my brother in a hole."  

CASTIEL: You got what you asked for, Dean. No paradise. No hell. Just more of the same. I mean it, Dean. What would you rather have? Peace or freedom?
 

[Terese]

12 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

That was actually what Dean and Sam were fighting against in the Apocalypse.  Remember that it promised eternal peace and happiness for everyone (and I would assume even the half the earth that was killed--because they'd wind up in heaven and happy).  That was even Cas's final line to Dean in Swan Song, when Dean was angry that his reward for saving the earth was "my brother in a hole."  

CASTIEL: You got what you asked for, Dean. No paradise. No hell. Just more of the same. I mean it, Dean. What would you rather have? Peace or freedom?
 

Yes, I remember, which is why this new brand of Heaven reminds me more of standing in line in Hell.

[Samwise979]

I didn't hate it (that award goes to The 100) but I also wish last week with the boys driving off to enjoy their lives with their free will was the finale. What ever happened to a good old fashioned happily ever after?

[Pondlass1]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

It was also kind of annoying that that they had no budget for fake blood,because Dean should have been coughing it up

I agree. His lungs would be filled with blood and he’d be choking on it with every breath. But the shallow person inside me is glad Dean remained beautifully tragic to the end. 

[KayCordingly]

24 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I agree. His lungs would be filled with blood and he’d be choking on it with every breath. But the shallow person inside me is glad Dean remained beautifully tragic to the end. 

This may have been part of why that scene didn't work for me, now that you guys mention it. Dean went from "I think there's something stuck in my back" to "Nope, there's no use getting help, I'm dead" in a matter of like 5 seconds, and nothing changed. Just one sputter of blood would have gone a long way.

[tessathereaper]

2 hours ago, Terese said:

Most negative reactions I have are more about the season than the finale. The finale simply fit the final piece into a very uninspired, rather vindictive story.

My principal problem was with recreating Heaven as this perfect place without want or cares. An eternity without struggles or accomplishments, sadness or joy and little do but visit others. How does this literal eternal peace satisfy anyone, especially Sam and Dean. Or Bobby, who feared a rocking chair, is now content with sitting on a stoop drinking a beer for ETERNITY. It's a child's understanding on Heaven.

Looks fine on the surface, perhaps; but like everything else with this season, you barely scratch beneath the surface and it falls apart. An eternity of meaningless, quasi-existence where you get everything you want sounds like Hell. 

I agree, I don't see Dean having peace.  Heaven has no growth, no change.  Sure the walls are down, you can see people but its not a place of LIVING, not really, it's still a place of memory.  Dean got there, and because he was no allowed to enjoy his freedom and create his own new life, he literally has nothing do but wait for Sam to show up.  He only has the past and nothing more.  Dean did not get peace, he got stagnation.  He never got to live life or enjoy his freedom. 

That thing on the desk, was apparently a job application so anyone who thinks Dean had no plans and no hopes for the future is wrong, I don't see it as a win that a character who believed he was worthless and was going to die and just had to make sure his brother was safe, was shown that is all he was good for, because he never got to enjoy any of the life he fought for and he got to go to heaven and wait while Sam got to live.  I'm not particularly interested in the "its like real life", this is a fictional story and lots of things that happen in real life are not at all satisfying as stories if they are told exactly as they happen.  That's one of the reasons why even "true stories" get tweaked a bit because hey it may be life, but really kind of sucks as part of a story.

[gonzosgirrl]

I think he knew the rebar was basically plugging the hole. He was still bleeding, but much slower than if Sam pulled him off. It didn't necessarily puncture a lung. Did you notice how quiet his voice was though? He's so good at dying. Damnit.

[spadada]

Like so many of you, I expected it to be so much worse so I was fine with it. It is forgettable which is good because then I can continue to watch old favorites without thinking about how it ends. 

@Slovenly Muse, your last post summed up how I feel. 

Someone asked upthread why the Purge masks on the vamps. Was thinking maybe Covid. An added layer of just in case protection. 

Like Dean, and probably Jensen, I’m just so glad this show is over so I can be done.

Can someone link me to the interview where the boys talk about their feelings on the finale?

Edited November 21, 2020 by spadada

[Myrelle]

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I think he knew the rebar was basically plugging the hole. He was still bleeding, but much slower than if Sam pulled him off. It didn't necessarily puncture a lung. Did you notice how quiet his voice was though? He's so good at dying. Damnit.

He's The Best at dying AFAIC. 

I know that sounds messed up, but it's true, IMO. 

[ukgirl71]

Just as an aside, and excuse my stupidity if I’ve got it wrong, but isn’t rebar used for supporting masonry/concrete structures?  That  barn looked to be all wood to me, so it, in theory, shouldn’t even have been there,  Is that a sign of how sloppy the writing is?

[Castiels Cat]

4 hours ago, ukgirl71 said:

Just as an aside, and excuse my stupidity if I’ve got it wrong, but isn’t rebar used for supporting masonry/concrete structures?  That  barn looked to be all wood to me, so it, in theory, shouldn’t even have been there,  Is that a sign of how sloppy the writing is?

That's exactly what rebar is for.

[Castiels Cat]

22 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I don't have a problem with Dean dying.  Deans' story having a tragic ending almost seemed inevitable.    My problem was this hunt and in this way.

It was the FIRST hunt after God supposedly stopped writing their story.   What kind of message does that send about Dean and his legacy as a hunter? 

To make matter worse the show reduced hunting to an after school special that parents can let their teens participate in.   Newbies who never hunted before lasted longer than Dean, supposedly.

And why vamps.  Even more reduced to milk run hunts for newbies.  Why not put a little bit of effort into find a monster the guys never heard of before and didn't have all knowledge.  That way if its a tragic accident it doesn't' stick out like a sore thumb. 

Jensen nailed Dean's death scene, but the length bugged a bit.  It reminds me when during s9 when he was stabbed and Jensen shortened the speech.  It was also kind of annoying that that they had no budget for fake blood,because Dean should have been coughing it up.  But aside from that I didn't like that Sam couldn't see past his own pain long enough to see how much physical pain Dean was in, and Dean should never had to tell Sam to tell him it was okay to let go.  Sam should have done that on his own.  Sam never had to tell his son that.  His son just knew. 

I know that Dean's hunter funeral was probably one of the things we lost because of Covid, but there were ways to work around it. Give Sam some dialogue before the music cue.   Have Sam put a a stack of thick papers on Dean's body and say that was  list off all the people they saved.  (F Dabb, and his it was all Chuck).  Have Jody and Donna on zoom saying they were sorry they were stuck in whereever and they were sorry about Dean.  Have Garth call Sam.  We've seen Jensen do ADR from Austin.  I think Brianna lives in Vancouver so she wouln't have had to quarantine.  Heck, hire a local Vancouver actor to play random Dean hunter friend number 1.  Or when Sam was with his son, instead of them studying so Sam with a photo album and articles about the people they saved so little Dean knows why he was named after his uncle.

Or even have Jared to the voice over for the ep and we find out in the end he's telling his son about his amazing uncle.

I agree with @Bergamot  It seems like Dean was forgotten by everyone but Sam. 

 

The final episode was Sam pimping. Dabb took everything that seasons before had built up about Dean and tried to destroy the character and the icon.He hid behind Chuck all season except  in this episode so it is especially shameful.

 

Edited November 21, 2020 by Castiels Cat

[BoxManLocke]

5 hours ago, ukgirl71 said:

Just as an aside, and excuse my stupidity if I’ve got it wrong, but isn’t rebar used for supporting masonry/concrete structures?  That  barn looked to be all wood to me, so it, in theory, shouldn’t even have been there,  Is that a sign of how sloppy the writing is?

 

Isn't this the director's job ? I'm not sure the term "rebar" would necessarily be on the script.

 

You know, Singer, the guy who decided to film Jared up close knowing his old guy make up looked like utter trash. Director Singer who hasn't been able to direct a decent fight scene for like a decade.

[Castiels Cat]

15 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

I thought that was to remind us of the tattoo because Sam's son had one on his arm.  Is Dean.2 a hunter?

I remember around s 5 there were rumors that Jared pitched a fit that Sam wasn't going to be the hero and this partially led to lopsided SS. Jared was technically the "star". IDK what his contract still says or if he would still pitch a fit like that... the Sam pimping was heavy.

Maybe it was just to promote Walker.

Short sighted when you think of syndication  and the possibility for films. Dean is the iconic character... 

But that shirtless shit was weird.

Walker looks like it will be bad. His acting has really fallen off...

It's so weird because the media has been giving Jensen star treatment. It's probably the Boys casting.

Edited November 21, 2020 by Castiels Cat

[Casseiopeia]

14 hours ago, catrox14 said:

It's seems weird that the wildly loyal audience needs a reminder that Sam  has anti possession tattoo to realize that is what was on Nephew Dean.

That was one of the theories I read. Plus I think Dabb was trying to include iconic symbols and scenes in the episode. The initials, the pie, the bridge, Dead mans blood (they only had the one bullet?), the license plate, etc.

[bethy]

Is there significance to that particular bridge? It’s not the bridge from the Pilot, at least. That would’ve been cool.

[Wynne88]

4 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

Walker looks like it will be bad. His acting has really fallen off...

I thought Jared did a super job with this episode.  I think they both did.  I'm speaking specifically and solely about the acting; what was in the script and how the director chose to shoot it is a different topic, although I don't have as many problems with it as most.  Why they chose to do a shirtless scene, I have no idea, but I seriously doubt that it was something Jared lobbied for.  Casseiopeia is probably right when she said: 

 

3 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

I think Dabb was trying to include iconic symbols and scenes in the episode.

In regard to Castiels Cat's comment above, I don't think I ever heard the 'rumors' about Jared complaining about not being the star.  Since I don't see Jensen as a doormat for Jared to walk all over, I doubt their friendship would have survived this.  I do agree that Dean's story lines were shortchanged in recent years; I just don't see him as 'poor Jensen'.  He is a great actor and a savvy businessman; he could have ended the show a lot earlier than this if it bothered him enough.  

I'm personally looking forward to Walker.   I expect that Jared will enjoy developing an entirely new character, just as Jensen will in his new role on The Boys.  It's got to be nice to do something entirely new.

Bringing it back to the episode, I really liked the early parts showing them at home in the bunker.  Loved Miracle the dog; casting (?) did a great job there.  I would have personally preferred it if nobody had died; if at the end, they had just shut the trunk with the standard 'We've got work to do" and driven off into the sunset.   Since for whatever possibly nefarious reason, the decision was made to put a definitive end to the series, it made sense to me that it was Dean who died since I think he would have had a harder time giving up hunting and might not have leaned on his self-preservation instincts the way he should have.   I could just as easily argue that it should have been Sam, though.   I don't think it mattered; one had to go and one had to stay given the storyline.  As far as the manner of death, I'm glad that it was simple chance that killed him instead of some monster out-fighting him; I wouldn't have wanted him to go out as a loser.  They've done a lot of dying lying down; I guess this provided a different visual aspect.  I was glad they just glossed over Sam's life afterwards since it wasn't what the episode was supposed to be about, but I'll admit it bugged me when his grown son just walked over to the bed and told him it was okay to go, and then just sat there when he did.  It seemed so emotionless, but maybe that was part of the glossing.  Agree with everyone about the awful old man makeup.  Last of all, I'm really glad that Dean didn't have to wait long for Sam to join him.  It was a nice reunion.

I've spent 15 years with this show, and I will miss it . . . but I'm glad it's done.  

Edited November 21, 2020 by Wynne88
To correctly attribute a comment.

[companionenvy]

7 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Otherwise what's to stop you from having the annoying neighbour you couldn't stand on Earth move in  next door again in Heaven? 

I get that even a better version of the finale wouldn't have had time to address this, but that is one of the central questions about how any version of heaven really works. Like, even if you eradicate disease and death and material want, one of the things that stops us from being totally happy on Earth is the fact that people who are not-us have desires and can exercise those desires in ways that we might not like. So if you want total happiness, you are stuck with Chuck's original-recipe memorex heaven, where all of the other "people" are actually manifestations of your own ego, but you are apparently anesthetized enough not to really notice or mind.

If you instead want free will and some variety of authentic experience, on the other hand, you no longer have total happiness precisely for the reason Gonzogirl articulated: if the neighbor wants to live next to you, and you don't want to live next to the neighbor--or, to use a weightier example, if Jessica came over wanting to live with Sam, but Sam is no longer in love with her after his years with maybe!Eileen--, someone gets hurt.

[Dobian]

15 hours ago, Slovenly Muse said:

Regardless of the exact manner of his death, I just keep thinking about the hole that Dean has left in the world: A young man named after him, who was surely raised on the the stories of Dean's feats, and is now the sole bearer of that enormous legacy. A bunker left dark and shuttered, just waiting for a new generation of hunters to stumble across it, wonder at the lives of the people who used to live there, try on Dean's robe and call it "the dead guy robe." The community of hunters who saw the Winchesters as legends, and will certainly be telling wilder and wilder stories about Dean after his death (it's my head canon that Jody, Donna, and all their other living hunter friends threw a massive wake for Dean, which Sam politely declined to attend). A black '67 Chevy Impala likely now owned and maintained by a new Dean Winchester, possibly still hunting the way she should be... Even though it was unsaid, or not shown, it's all undeniably there in the fabric of this universe, and the more I think about it, the more stuff emerges, the more I realize Dean has left behind. It comes over me in waves, breaking my heart all over again, when I think back on the complex history of this show. And even though they may not have had the budget, or the Covid safety measures, or the creative capacity to put it all on the screen, for me it is no less present or powerful. This episode sucked, but, it was really just a formality anyway. We know what Dean and Sam meant to us and to their world. We understand what it means for them to finally be at peace together, and what it means for those (of us) left behind to live in a world without them. It was so poorly executed, but fuck, I'll take it. The legacy of these characters was always going to be bigger than the show would be able to do justice to.

People also kind of forget that Chuck wrote a series of best selling books that told every one of Sam and Dean's adventures in detail, so it's not even like people would be going on vague and shadowy legends about vampires, wendigos, demons and angels.  All they need is some evidence that Sam and Dean were in fact real and they will be reading and dissecting all those books in droves.  The internet would explode with forensic evidence and eyewitness accounts of many of their deeds.  Sam and Dean will not go unsung.

[Commando Cody]

Oddly enough, the only thing that came to mind, while I was watching, was - don’t put your kid’s name on his clothing. I understand it was a montage, with no narration, but for safety reasons, don’t do it.

I was very neutral on this episode. I went in expecting nothing from it. Dean gets killed on a nail after fighting mime-pires. For some reason I started thinking about the baseball gang in the movie ‘The Warriors’.  

Sam goes on to have a son, with no further explanation. The mother wasn’t at his deathbed. The only thing we know about Dean.2 is he that he had a tattoo.

The final wasn’t  how I thought it should end. We can’t blame Covid for everything. If this show still had good writers who cared about this series, we would have had more of an ending - actually more of a 15th season. Instead it was just dreck. It deserved much, much better.

[gonzosgirrl]

I keep hearing Dean's voice getting softer and softer. Whether or not I can invest in this as a show ending, I sure as hell invest in Dean's ending. I think in all of the times he's died, this is the only time he ever said good-bye.

 

Edited November 21, 2020 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

Here's why I think Dean's death was shitty. It wasn't an accident. I think the vampire knew it was there. A vampire did kill Dean, by intentionally slamming Dean onto giant nail/hook thing. I hate it.

[Katy M]

11 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Here's why I think Dean's death was shitty. It wasn't an accident. I think the vampire knew it was there. A vampire did kill Dean, by intentionally slamming Dean onto giant nail/hook thing. I hate it.

I'm not sure why that makes it worse.  Of course the vampire was trying to kill him.  That's what vampires do.

[gonzosgirrl]

8 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I'm not sure why that makes it worse.  Of course the vampire was trying to kill him.  That's what vampires do.

I do think it was bad luck that the spike was there. But yeah, even if the vamp knew, it doesn't really change it. Either way he was killed by a vampire during a hunt. They've made hunting them a 'cake walk' over the years, but they are still supernaturally strong monsters - he is not the first hunter to be killed by them - Daniel Elkins (original owner of the Colt, whose specialty was vamps) comes to mind. I know, he survived God and Death and more. Guess that's what happens when supervillains monologue and toy with their victims, instead of killing them outright. Or when the plot-armor falls off.

Edited November 21, 2020 by gonzosgirrl

[Pondlass1]

Had Sam died on that prong I wonder what Dean would’ve done. I don’t think Sam would’ve argued to die and even if he did, Dean wouldn’t have let him. Dean’s codependence has always been steadfast and unhealthy. Dad did a number on him and it stuck.  And if it did come to a hunter’s pyre and Sam drifted up to heaven, Dean would’ve become John, a hothead hunter bent on revenge and retribution. Wildly killing every son of a bitch monster he could find. No picket fence and son named Sam for him. Dean goes down swinging and although heaven would welcome his soul.. remember he described  purgatory as ‘pure’ and after forty years in hell he confessed to Sam that he ‘liked it’

The formative years can really mess up a kid.😊

[Casseiopeia]

3 hours ago, Wynne88 said:

I don't think I ever heard the 'rumors' about Jared complaining about not being the star

I didn't post that Castiel's Cat did. I don't agree with that opinion at all.

[Wynne88]

7 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

3 hours ago, Wynne88 said:

I don't think I ever heard the 'rumors' about Jared complaining about not being the star

I didn't post that Castiel's Cat did. I don't agree with that opinion at all.

I know, it was unfortunate placing of the comment on my part. I'll go back and see if it will let me fix it. Apologies!

[Casseiopeia]

1 minute ago, Wynne88 said:

I know, it was unfortunate placing of the comment on my part. I'll go back and see if it will let me fix it. Apologies!

No worries

[ahrtee]

I guess if they could have gotten JDM, they could have had John deliver the "welcome to heaven," speech instead of Bobby.   John could tell  Dean he did a wonderful job with Sam and now he can "stand down", and could end by saying "Mom's got dinner waiting.  Come on," and Dean, looking either dismayed or happy, asking "Winchester Surprise?"  Then they both get into the Impala and drive away. 

The ending on the bridge would be the same, of course, though Dean might tell Sam, "c'mon.  Mom and Dad are waiting for us."  

 

[Bergamot]

42 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Had Sam died on that prong I wonder what Dean would’ve done.

I don't know, but I don't think he would have turned into John. For one thing, we have seen what Dean did when Sam was gone before. He did his best to live up to what Sam wanted. For another thing, Dean was never John, obsessed with hunting for revenge.

46 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I don’t think Sam would’ve argued to die and even if he did, Dean wouldn’t have let him.

Maybe this is just a matter of how you phrased it, but Dean was not "arguing to die". He knew that he was dying, that nothing could be done to stop it. Nothing natural, anyway. And I don't think that either of them would have been willing to let the other one try something supernatural to save them, not anymore. As Dean said, they both knew how that would end, that it always ended badly.

I thought Jensen was just incredible in this scene. One thing about his acting that is so amazing is the way that you can always SEE what his character is thinking. And when he starts out by saying "I don't think I'm going anywhere", and as he explains to Sam what has happened, you can see the realization dawning on him that he is going to die. And you can see him admit this to himself when he asks Sam to stay with him. And then you can see him shifting gears and trying to think of what he needs to do next, before the end -- first, instruct Sam to make sure that the boys are safe, because that is the most important thing, and then second, help Sam accept what is going to happen and try to make sure he will be okay.

And as he is doing that, all the while growing weaker and fading away, he is also trying to accept what is happening for himself. "It's okay, it's okay" he tells Sam, but he also telling himself this. "It's good." And then at the end he says, "I did not think this would be the day. But it is. It is, and that's -- that's okay." He does not want to die, but he knows that it is going to happen, and he accepts it so bravely! 😢 He just needs Sam to tell him that it is okay to let go, because Dean was never able to stop fighting, even when he knew that he couldn't win.

 

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, companionenvy said:

I get that even a better version of the finale wouldn't have had time to address this, but that is one of the central questions about how any version of heaven really works. Like, even if you eradicate disease and death and material want, one of the things that stops us from being totally happy on Earth is the fact that people who are not-us have desires and can exercise those desires in ways that we might not like. So if you want total happiness, you are stuck with Chuck's original-recipe memorex heaven, where all of the other "people" are actually manifestations of your own ego, but you are apparently anesthetized enough not to really notice or mind.

If you instead want free will and some variety of authentic experience, on the other hand, you no longer have total happiness precisely for the reason Gonzogirl articulated: if the neighbor wants to live next to you, and you don't want to live next to the neighbor--or, to use a weightier example, if Jessica came over wanting to live with Sam, but Sam is no longer in love with her after his years with maybe!Eileen--, someone gets hurt.

Okay, I guess there will be things to dissect and speculate on forever now, but I am still not convinced that there is one zen heaven for everyone. I think it's still your personal heaven, but rather than Memorex memories, the people and things you want and love are 'alive' in yours, and simultaneously, in their own.

To wit, Bobby says this to Dean:

Quote

And then he -- Well, he set some things right. Tore down all the walls up here. Heaven ain't just reliving your golden oldies anymore. It's what it always should've been. Everyone happy. Everyone together. Rufus lives about five miles that way -- with Aretha. Thought she'd have better taste. And your mom and dad... they got a place over yonder. It ain't just Heaven, Dean. It's the Heaven you deserve. And we've been waiting for you.

Now, we never knew Rufus's wife's name, but if it was Aretha, then why would he joke she would have better taste than to spend Heaven with Rufus? Implies a choice. Or, is the joke supposed to be he's with Aretha Franklin, because that would be his heaven. If so, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be hers.

And Bobby specifically says you get the Heaven you deserve. For me, this means it's personalized. I don't think I can be swayed from this.

 

 

[Castiels Cat]

https://www.salon.com/2020/11/19/supernatural-finale-america-monsters/

Television critic reviewed the show.

Embarrassing myself on FB. Now everyone knows that I care too much about Dean Winchester. Arguing with people that tell me that he died because Chuck was not making him special anymore. I cannot help but notice the fight featured superspeshul Sam.

It did an extreme disservice to Dean who was the standout iconic character. 

F them.

Rebar in a wooden barn is the dumbest thing ever. That in itself is enough to justify a THIS IS ALL A BAD DREAM reboot.

And Dean, must save Sammy, Winchester doesn't even go down saving his brother. That is the biggest F You Dabb could have done.

I hope his show is canceled after one season. My guess is it will be. They want the Supernatural fans. How many will watch. The majority are Deangirls and Cas fans. No.

Sam fans will go to Walker. How many Jack fans are there...

Edited November 21, 2020 by Castiels Cat

[companionenvy]

8 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Okay, I guess there will be things to dissect and speculate on forever now, but I am still not convinced that there is one zen heaven for everyone. I think it's still your personal heaven, but rather than Memorex memories, the people and things you want and love are 'alive' in yours, and simultaneously, in their own.

To wit, Bobby says this to Dean:

Now, we never knew Rufus's wife's name, but if it was Aretha, then why would he joke she would have better taste than to spend Heaven with Rufus? Implies a choice. Or, is the joke supposed to be he's with Aretha Franklin, because that would be his heaven. If so, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be hers.

And Bobby specifically says you get the Heaven you deserve. For me, this means it's personalized. I don't think I can be swayed from this.

 

 

That's definitely possible, but I just assumed that the joke was that Rufus and Aretha Franklin met in heaven, and that she, improbably, fell for him. 

My interpretation was that you did have a default, personal heaven, in terms of appearance, but that any people within it were real, either because they were visiting you from another heaven, or because portions of their heaven coincided with yours. So, the Roadhouse could be part of the heaven of a number of people, and because of the magic of heaven, if you stop in the roadhouse in your heaven, anyone whose heaven includes it might be there. But even if the architecture of two people's heavens are completely different, you can choose to visit the heaven of another. So I think the personal heaven concept still exists, but without Memorex people.

[gonzosgirrl]

I don't have a problem with the existence of the steel spike in the barn. It's clearly supposed to be a hook for something - probably something heavy. Hooks and anchors are generally made of steel. Notice there is another on the pillar behind him, with a length of chain on it. It definitely shouldn't have been left pointed and sharp like that, but it's not out of place in and of itself.

Edited November 21, 2020 by gonzosgirrl

[Binns]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't have a problem with the existence of the steel spike in the barn. It's clearly supposed to be a hook for something - probably something heavy. Notice there is another on the pillar behind him, with a length of chain on it. It definitely shouldn't have been left pointed and sharp like that, but it's not out of place in and of itself.

Maybe people will stop with the “rusty nail and tetanus” baloney now. Speaking as a nurse, getting impaled on that at the location on his body it hit- that would be fatal but not necessarily fast. I think it was medically realistic and JA did a great job “fading” Dean away. I think there would have been blood coming out of his mouth but I understand stylistically not showing that. 

[gonzosgirrl]

3 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

That's definitely possible, but I just assumed that the joke was that Rufus and Aretha Franklin met in heaven, and that she, improbably, fell for him. 

My interpretation was that you did have a default, personal heaven, in terms of appearance, but that any people within it were real, either because they were visiting you from another heaven, or because portions of their heaven coincided with yours. So, the Roadhouse could be part of the heaven of a number of people, and because of the magic of heaven, if you stop in the roadhouse in your heaven, anyone whose heaven includes it might be there. But even if the architecture of two people's heavens are completely different, you can choose to visit the heaven of another. So I think the personal heaven concept still exists, but without Memorex people.

I don't think they are Memorex people, they are your real people. I just conceive of them existing in more than one 'reality'. The Heaven you deserve is not necessarily the heaven others deserve.

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, Wynne88 said:

I know, it was unfortunate placing of the comment on my part. I'll go back and see if it will let me fix it. Apologies!

I was discussed on a Deancentric board years ago. I  didn't used to buy into this bias against Dean/Jensen. That was then. This is now.

 

Season 4 and part of season 5 had a great story arc for Dean and then there was an abrupt direction change. Then in season 6 he was denigrated and there was Sam pimping and shirtless Sam who suddenly was the better hunter...

The similarities to now are striking except that we had Jack pimping too and an extra special helping of Sam pimping after shirtless Sam.

How many close-ups of Sam masterfully beheading vampires didxwe get? Come on. It was ridiculous.

I think Jensen let's a lot go.

It won't matter because he will soar.

 

[gonzosgirrl]

3 minutes ago, Binns said:

Maybe people will stop with the “rusty nail and tetanus” baloney now. Speaking as a nurse, getting impaled on that at the location on his body it hit- that would be fatal but not necessarily fast. I think it was medically realistic and JA did a great job “fading” Dean away. I think there would have been blood coming out of his mouth but I understand stylistically not showing that. 

There doesn't have to be blood in his mouth though - depending on what it damaged. I am actually pretty surprised they managed to resist a trope like that.

[bethy]

48 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Now, we never knew Rufus's wife's name, but if it was Aretha, then why would he joke she would have better taste than to spend Heaven with Rufus? Implies a choice. Or, is the joke supposed to be he's with Aretha Franklin, because that would be his heaven. If so, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be hers.

My assumption was that he meant Aretha Franklin. And Rufus was awesome. So it could be her choice, in my mind. 🙂

Edited November 21, 2020 by bethy

[Bergamot]

30 minutes ago, Binns said:

Maybe people will stop with the “rusty nail and tetanus” baloney now. Speaking as a nurse, getting impaled on that at the location on his body it hit- that would be fatal but not necessarily fast. I think it was medically realistic and JA did a great job “fading” Dean away. I think there would have been blood coming out of his mouth but I understand stylistically not showing that. 

Thanks Binns! I was wondering about the medical realism part of it. Dramatically, I think it was well thought out, and gave them a way to have Dean dying, and know he was dying, but still give him time to talk with Sam.

[BabySpinach]

Overall, I was okay with the broad strokes of Dean dying on a hunt and reuniting with Sam in heaven. It's just that Dean dying so young and so soon after their final victory, without having had the opportunity to make anything new or significant of his freedom (or even just enjoy it for a few years at least), broke my heart.

I do think it's very likely that Dean would have continued hunting until he was eventually taken out, as it's long been established that saving people has always been his choice of pursuit. He'd made what John pushed onto him into something more beautiful and selfless, something that was his own. Still, Dean deserved to find something in addition to that, so that it wasn't such a frustrating cut-and-dry regression back to the show's basic tagline/premise/character summary. I think this is what will always grate at me. 

[Bergamot]

51 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Or, is the joke supposed to be he's with Aretha Franklin, because that would be his heaven. If so, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be hers.

LOL! Hey now, don't you go dissing Rufus! That scowl of his is pretty sexy! 😉

[companionenvy]

31 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't think they are Memorex people, they are your real people. I just conceive of them existing in more than one 'reality'. The Heaven you deserve is not necessarily the heaven others deserve.

I guess for me, those two things are in conflict. Maybe I can imagine a scenario in which multiple versions of a person can live out multiple desirable outcomes, without having to choose. So there can be both a version of Sam with Dean, and a version hanging out with his wife, and a version hanging out with Jess or Amelia or whoever, all at the same time and with some property that allows all of the individual Sams to feel that they are experiencing all of the various things they want.

But if Becky the Samfan gets her own personal Sam to spend eternity with, just because that is what some part of her wants, that's no longer Sam she's interacting with, it is a puppet. Maybe a puppet that otherwise acts very realistic, but one that isn't much different, in terms of authenticity or free will, from the Sam that married Becky only because he was under a spell.

 

38 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

I was discussed on a Deancentric board years ago. I  didn't used to buy into this bias against Dean/Jensen. That was then. This is now.

 

Can you and others who want to discuss an overall bias against Dean please take it to B/J where it belongs? I stopped posting on the SPN boards because of B/J migrating to other threads, but would like to discuss the finale in peace.

[Binns]

37 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

There doesn't have to be blood in his mouth though - depending on what it damaged. I am actually pretty surprised they managed to resist a trope like that.

I was thinking pulmonary artery, but you are right. I’m glad they resisted that too. For one, his speech wouldn’t have been as clear, and we deserved to hear every word. 

[gonzosgirrl]

8 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I guess for me, those two things are in conflict. Maybe I can imagine a scenario in which multiple versions of a person can live out multiple desirable outcomes, without having to choose. So there can be both a version of Sam with Dean, and a version hanging out with his wife, and a version hanging out with Jess or Amelia or whoever, all at the same time and with some property that allows all of the individual Sams to feel that they are experiencing all of the various things they want.

But if Becky the Samfan gets her own personal Sam to spend eternity with, just because that is what some part of her wants, that's no longer Sam she's interacting with, it is a puppet. Maybe a puppet that otherwise acts very realistic, but one that isn't much different, in terms of authenticity or free will, from the Sam that married Becky only because he was under a spell.

This is the problem with the whole idea of the afterlife, and eternal rewards, and the Heaven you deserve. If there is only one, then somebody is not getting theirs.

4 minutes ago, Binns said:

I was thinking pulmonary artery, but you are right. I’m glad they resisted that too. For one, his speech wouldn’t have been as clear, and we deserved to hear every word. 

If it missed his lungs but punctured his heart/aorta (and plugged the hole to slow the bleeding, which is what is implied), then there wouldn't be blood in the mouth, right? It would have to either be in his airway or his GI tract to come out his mouth?

(TMI, but my ex had a triple-A and there was no bleeding from the mouth, but he was literally moments away from bleeding out internally)

Edited November 21, 2020 by gonzosgirrl

[Binns]

31 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

This is the problem with the whole idea of the afterlife, and eternal rewards, and the Heaven you deserve. If there is only one, then somebody is not getting theirs.

If it missed his lungs but punctured his heart/aorta (and plugged the hole to slow the bleeding, which is what is implied), then there wouldn't be blood in the mouth, right? It would have to either be in his airway or his GI tract to come out his mouth?

(TMI, but my ex had a triple-A and there was no bleeding from the mouth, but he was literally moments away from bleeding out internally)

Right, so if they wanted to show him coughing and struggling, he would have had blood. Aorta is probably a better guess. He was very smart to tell Sam not to move him. 
 

Unrelated but I’m baking today and listening to my Spotify Time Capsule and it feels like every other song is melancholy and making me sad all over again. Stop it, Spotify! I was feeling ok for a while. 
 

ETA come on. Knockin’ on Heaven’s Door. 

Edited November 21, 2020 by Binns

[Bergamot]

2 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

Overall, I was okay with the broad strokes of Dean dying on a hunt and reuniting with Sam in heaven. It's just that Dean dying so young and so soon after their final victory, without having had the opportunity to make anything new or significant of his freedom (or even just enjoy it for a few years at least), broke my heart.

 Me too.  💔  This was the hardest thing for me to take, I think.

6 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

I do think it's very likely that Dean would have continued hunting until he was eventually taken out, as it's long been established that saving people has always been his choice of pursuit. He'd made what John pushed onto him into something more beautiful and selfless, something that was his own. Still, Dean deserved to find something in addition to that, so that it wasn't such a frustrating cut-and-dry regression back to the show's basic tagline/premise/character summary. I think this is what will always grate at me. 

Very well said. I like what you say about how he made what John had pushed onto him into something beautiful and selfless. Dean formulated the idea of "saving people, hunting things" for himself -- it was not a mission statement that he was given by John.  As he tells Sam in Wendigo, "I figure our family's so screwed to hell, maybe we can help some others".

But I also agree that Dean deserved to find something in addition to that, something that was his own. He should have had the time and the freedom to do that. Who knows what he could have done if he had?

And if nothing else, he deserved more time to just live and enjoy life. Because he was good at that. He reminds me of something C.S. Lewis said about his wife after she died, that a 1000 years of happiness would not have made her blase about it. That she liked more things, and liked them more, than anyone he knew. I know, Dean can eat pie in Heaven, but it's not the same.

[kickingnames]

I just keep imagining what could have been. I mean, Sam sat down to look for a case, and Dean was definitely not looking for a case — he was looking for pie! He should have had a true chance to do both — be the hunter he’s been known to be throughout the series, and also enjoy the finer things in life that have always been denied him (namely, a life). Sam deserved the same.

I feel like the coolest feat would have been to show these guys figuring out how to be who they are — hunters, through and through — and still learn to have a life with people beyond the hunt. Basically, breaking the “either/or” rule that the writers were so stuck on about hunting: you either get out of the life completely, or you hunt until you die (sooner rather than later). I would have been so impressed if the result of Chuck being out of the picture was that Sam and Dean actually got to do both: be the legend-caliber hunters they’ve always been, while living a full life.

It’s just that what we got was such a short-sighted view of the options left to close out the story for these two characters. 

[companionenvy]

3 minutes ago, kickingnames said:

I just keep imagining what could have been. I mean, Sam sat down to look for a case, and Dean was definitely not looking for a case — he was looking for pie! He should have had a true chance to do both — be the hunter he’s been known to be throughout the series, and also enjoy the finer things in life that have always been denied him (namely, a life). Sam deserved the same.

I feel like the coolest feat would have been to show these guys figuring out how to be who they are — hunters, through and through — and still learn to have a life with people beyond the hunt. Basically, breaking the “either/or” rule that the writers were so stuck on about hunting: you either get out of the life completely, or you hunt until you die (sooner rather than later). I would have been so impressed if the result of Chuck being out of the picture was that Sam and Dean actually got to do both: be the legend-caliber hunters they’ve always been, while living a full life.

It’s just that what we got was such a short-sighted view of the options left to close out the story for these two characters. 

I agree with this, though I think the story would have had to start setting this up a long time ago for your proposed kind of ending to work. I always thought that the season with the British MOL was an important pivot point where the show had an opportunity to go back to something somewhat more human in the wake of the resolution of the God/Amara conflict, and then instead doubled down on celestial drama. In my version of the show, that season would have involved Sam and Dean organizing the American hunters into a more cohesive group, forming relationships and ties (possibly, including romantic ones) within the hunter community, and setting up a possible soft exit in which they realized that they could transition into a different kind of role within a larger hunter community. Maybe a version of the Buffy ending, where while she isn't retiring, now that she's one of many slayers, as opposed to the chosen one, she gets a lot more agency in the path her life takes going forward, and has probably upped her life expectancy by at least a couple of decades, if not precisely to "normal life" levels.

Again, I didn't think this ending was terrible, but it was about the least interesting one they could have chosen. Dean dies young while hunting and Sam lives a more or less normal family life is probably the ending everyone--including Sam and Dean themselves--would have predicted for them by the time Sam left home at 18. While I don't think plots always need to defy expectations to be good, in this case, I think having the boys make different choices that the ones they probably would have made at the beginning of the series would have been a much better conclusion for their journey. Working within the restrictions that the rest of the season had left us with, I would have liked an ending in which Sam kept hunting--though maybe on a somewhat reduced scale that would accommodate things like going back to school, a relationship, etc-- and Dean decided he was done, at least for now, and set out alone (or with Miracle!) in Baby on a long, non-hunting related road trip across America. 

It wouldn't have been as conclusive, but I think it would have been more satisfying.

[Bobcatkitten]

I'm glad they changed heaven but I absolutely would have hated John welcoming them. They sanitized that character enough in Lebanon. He was a horrible father. Bobby was there for him way more and it was perfect for him to welcome him.