S15.E20: Carry On (Series Finale)

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

My take away after sleeping on it is that I have zero doubt now that it was Jensen who pulled the plug, and this was the price. 

 

I'm sure this is what we'll be hearing from Jensen at cons from now til eternity. 

Well... Jensen may start getting too busy for cons. His career is taking off.

Yes. They punished Jensen, TV's sexiest actor or whatever it is in People.

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

My take away after sleeping on it is that I have zero doubt now that it was Jensen who pulled the plug, and this was the price. 

 

I'm sure this is what we'll be hearing from Jensen at cons from now til eternity. 

Well... Jensen may start getting too busy for cons. His career is taking off.

Yes. They punished Jensen, TV's sexiest actor or whatever it is in People.

[gonzosgirrl]

38 minutes ago, Katy M said:

FWIW, he was still wearing his wedding ring when he got in the car and took his glasses off.

I think much like in Dark Side of the Moon, where we only saw Sam have two memories and they don't include Dean and had they been in Heaven longer, Dean would have been in his memories, I think that after they get done looking at the sunset, or whatever they're doing, they'll go be with other people also.  Including Eileen assuming she predeceased Sam.  And, of course, their parents.  Maye Sam can get some closure and apologize to Jessica for getting her killed (no, not on purpose).

Or maybe Sam is in Dean's Heaven and Sam's will include his family and maybe Dean on weekends or holidays.  Bobby said the walls were down, but I imagine that you still only have people you want around you.  Otherwise what's to stop you from having the annoying neighbour you couldn't stand on Earth move in  next door again in Heaven? 

[Aeryn13]

Guess whoever became New Death grudge-killed Dean via rusty nail.

Though the putting-himself-down speech he had to give was worse than death.

And no acknowledgment of him whatsoever afterwards. 

Well, he was at least participating in the world-saving last week so it's not like he doesn't leave a legacy. It is just tragically an un-sung one.

I hope he branches out in heaven and hooks up with new and old people. 

[gonzosgirrl]

Well the memes have started already. Dean's death is a rusty nail joke. Will it be at cons now? lPhoto ops??? Lololol zomg!! so funny!!! 

I was kind of okay with things last night, but time is not being kind. Another thing I realized this morning is Badd even took away Dean's iconic "I'm proud of us" and turned it into "I'm proud of you". And not once in his self deprecating speech to Sam did he even hint at denying Dean's declaration that he was smarter, stronger, better one. Maybe Dean didn't need it, but I did. 

 

 

[PAForrest]

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Guess whoever became New Death grudge-killed Dean via rusty nail.

Though the putting-himself-down speech he had to give was worse than death.

And no acknowledgment of him whatsoever afterwards. 

Well, he was at least participating in the world-saving last week so it's not like he doesn't leave a legacy. It is just tragically an un-sung one.

I hope he branches out in heaven and hooks up with new and old people. 

Is the site working now? Geez.

Yeah, dying on a rusty nail, in possibly the most stupid way a writer could end Dean Winchester, is bad enough. But having to expend all his dying breath blowing smoke up Sam's ass was just cruel.

And then, naturally, Samantha can't muster up even one compliment - to his FREAKING DYING BROTHER. Not one. He's definitely Mary's son. I still say Dean ain't.

You did Samantha no favors whatsoever with me, Drabb. Shame on you.

eta: Or what gonzosgirrl said. I think we posted at the same time. LOL! But seriously, you're right, Drabb killed the "us" for "you" (aka Samantha). Wow, nothing but low blows.

Edited November 20, 2020 by PAForrest

[AuntTora]

I guess the incompetence of the thing is due to Covid more than anything -- that hideous wig, worse than a CVS Halloween costume. The logic gaps and general clunkiness. What was that paperwork on Dean's desk that looked like it was going to be significant for a second? Dean taken out by Stunt Demon, I mean, Vampire #2? The absence of any other characters, except for Bobby and his unconvincing dye job? Dean so subdued? But MOSTLY -- after fifteen years we, and THEY, deserved a happy ending dammit. "Reuniting in heaven" is not a happy ending. At least not until after a good long happy life on Earth. If it was always going to be the endgame, fair enough. But this was just half-assed. So disappointed.

Edited November 20, 2020 by AuntTora
Because I have a lot more to rant about.

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Or maybe Sam is in Dean's Heaven and Sam's will include his family and maybe Dean on weekends or holidays.  Bobby said the walls were down, but I imagine that you still only have people you want around you.  Otherwise what's to stop you from having the annoying neighbour you couldn't stand on Earth move in  next door again in Heaven? 

People don't have their own Heavens any more. It's all together.  As it should have been from the beginning.  I feel this episode righted a wrong that they made back in Season 5. People won't annoy you in Heaven, because there's no sin.  Everybody gets along.

 

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Guess whoever became New Death grudge-killed Dean via rusty nail.

Death doesn't kill, Death just reaps what is already dead.

[Casseiopeia]

 

Dean killed on a routine vamp hunt. Impaled..less than half way through the episode. And then a series of montages of Sam growing old, Dean driving down the road...they reunite! The End.

Did Dabb have a previous engagement? He couldn't have spent more than 30 minutes writing this script?

Edited November 20, 2020 by Casseiopeia

[gonzosgirrl]

5 minutes ago, Katy M said:

People don't have their own Heavens any more. It's all together.  As it should have been from the beginning.  I feel this episode righted a wrong that they made back in Season 5. People won't annoy you in Heaven, because there's no sin.  Everybody gets along.

 

I don't buy it. Otherwise there would be billions of people tripping around. Everyone who ever died. Surely your heaven is tge people you want. Loving or liking someone has nothing to do with sin, IMO.

Speaking of plot holes. Why didn't they take some more of thise handy dandy dead man's blood bullets into that completely blind situation? 

[Binns]

12 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Well the memes have started already. Dean's death is a rusty nail joke. Will it be at cons now? lPhoto ops??? Lololol zomg!! so funny!!! 

I was kind of okay with things last night, but time is not being kind. Another thing I realized this morning is Badd even took away Dean's iconic "I'm proud of us" and turned it into "I'm proud of you". And not once in his self deprecating speech to Sam did he even hint at denying Dean's declaration that he was smarter, stronger, better one. Maybe Dean didn't need it, but I did. 

 

 

I got the impression Sam was trying to deny what Dean was saying but was too much of a wreck to get it out. He was shaking his head and all of that. They could have done it better but I think JA did it so well and it was so Dean that I’m ok with it. Dean is so damaged...he wouldn’t have believed Sam if he had denied it and also he had things to say. He needed to say these things and Sam recognized he needed to get them out and let him talk. That’s my takeaway at least. I do wish Sam had said I love you back. 
 

I made the mistake of watching that scene again this morning and now I’m so sad! 
 

Do we think Dean Jr was a hunter? I feel like Sam wouldn’t have allowed that. 
 

Just realized Sam was wearing Dean’s watch. A little surprised we didn’t see the amulet. Maybe a bit too much fan service, haha. I loved seeing the clothes from S1E1. But oh, costumes. Couldn’t you have used baby powder or found a different wig?

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't buy it. Otherwise there would be billions of people tripping around. Everyone who ever died. Surely your heaven is tge people you want. Loving or liking someone has nothing to do with sin, IMO.

Speaking of plot holes. Why didn't they take some more of thise handy dandy dead man's blood bullets into that completely blind situation? 

Not everybody who ever died. There's also a Hell.  And Heaven is as big as it needs to be to make it pleasant.

Maybe they ran out of dead man's blood and wanted to get to the kids faster instead of stopping at the morgue?  I have no idea. Conveniently convenient is usually the rule of the day on this show.

3 minutes ago, Binns said:

Do we think Dean Jr was a hunter? I feel like Sam wouldn’t have allowed that. 

I was wondering that also.  Also, what Sam told him about his family.  He had the tattoo, but Sam could have just said it's family tradition.  Or, he might have taught him the basics so he could protect himself, but told him he didn't want that as a life. Or he could have been a full on hunter. Up to us to decide, I guess. I'm going with the family tradition story for my head canon.

 

5 minutes ago, Binns said:

Just realized Sam was wearing Dean’s watch. A little surprised we didn’t see the amulet. Maybe a bit too much fan service, haha

I don't think we've seen the amulet, bar flashbacks, since Don't Call Me Shurley.  I always thought it burned itself up lighting up for Chuck's presence.

[roamyn]

I knew what was coming before I watched, since I DVR’d it and caught a tweet that said something like “he deserved a hunter’s funeral”.  At which point I knew it was probably Dean.

However, that didn’t make his death any less impactful, and yeah, I didn’t like that Sam didn’t say anything back, but I figured he was too much in shock, and knew Dean needed to get it all out.  

But I think I’m crying harder this morning than I did last night.  My Dean...😭😭

[Aeryn13]

13 minutes ago, Binns said:

I got the impression Sam was trying to deny what Dean was saying but was too much of a wreck to get it out. He was shaking his head and all of that. They could have done it better but I think JA did it so well and it was so Dean that I’m ok with it. Dean is so damaged...he wouldn’t have believed Sam if he had denied it and also he had things to say. He needed to say these things and Sam recognized he needed to get them out and let him talk. That’s my takeaway at least. I do wish Sam had said I love you back. 
 

That was to hammer it home for the audience how Dean was just inferior in every way. I've seen it in reviews already like "of course, true". 

And then he just waits around for Sam because he has drive beyond "Sam".

Dabb went to town on the character.

[gonzosgirrl]

18 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Not everybody who ever died. There's also a Hell.  And Heaven is as big as it needs to be to make it pleasant.

 

But what if, say, Lisa's heaven was being with Dean and having him as a father to Ben? Is she just shit out of luck? This is why ine "open" heaven doesn't work.

Edited November 20, 2020 by gonzosgirrl

[Katy M]

7 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But what if, say, Lisa's heaven was being with Dean and having him as a father to Ben? Is she just shit out of luck? This is why ine "open" heaven doesn't work.

I'm sure Ben lived to adulthood and doesn't really need a father. And I'm also sure that Dean will be close with Lisa and Ben in Heaven. Assuming their mind wipe left them when they died.  you don't really get married and stuff in Heaven.

[Binns]

8 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

That was to hammer it home for the audience how Dean was just inferior in every way. I've seen it in reviews already like "of course, true". 

And then he just waits around for Sam because he has drive beyond "Sam".

Dabb went to town on the character.

Huh. I guess I’ve never really seen it that way (that he was made to be inferior) but I will admit to being a more shallow viewer, in other words I don’t dig super deep into the episodes especially the last few seasons. But I’m a diehard Deangirl and I’ve never really felt that Sam in particular devalued Dean- they had serious relationship issues but I don’t think he ever thought Dean was inferior to him. Dean had pathological self esteem issues and his entire life...from the age of 4...was about keeping Sam safe and happy. He was only ever going to find peace if he knew Sam would be ok, and he would only be completely happy in heaven once Sam joined him. 
 

I don’t like a whole lot Dabb did, for sure, and would have been fine ending after season 11. But I do think this was in character for Dean and a fitting ending...just a routine hunt. I wish we had seen more between the final battle with Chuck and this battle, definitely. But in my head they had more time. It’s not ideal that I have to manufacture that in my head. 
 

I’m looking forward to the next con or interview - I hope someone gets JA to tell them what his problems were at first. Feel like he’s been wanting to tell us. And I don’t think it’s been a tease to say things like “down the line, who knows” etc. This finale was seriously affected by COVID. I have no doubt it would have been packed with guest stars if not for that and probably Misha. 

[Dobian]

Two theories on Sam's wife at the end. 

It was Eileen, and the actress wasn't available.  I find this implausible since she was there about three episodes from the end.  She also would have been clearly shown in that family portrait if it was her but the actress wasn't available.

It was someone else.  We know that Billie was going to kill everyone who was supposed to be dead.  Eileen was supposed to be dead.  It turned out that God killed literally everybody, but when Jack brought people back I suspect that everyone who was supposed to be dead stayed dead.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

I'm sure Ben lived to adulthood and doesn't really need a father. And I'm also sure that Dean will be close with Lisa and Ben in Heaven. Assuming their mind wipe left them when they died.  you don't really get married and stuff in Heaven.

Sure looks like Dean and Sam did. 😕

Are we to believe then that Heaven is just a boring version of your life on Earth? No conflict, but also no love (if you weren't fortunate enough to have someone when you died). Cold beer that tastes like a memory and driving your car to nowhere? What if your heaven conflicts with someone  else's? It just doesn't work for me. 

[Binns]

1 minute ago, Dobian said:

It turned out that God killed literally everybody, but when Jack brought people back I suspect that everyone who was supposed to be dead stayed dead.

Wouldn’t that include the boys, the OG resurrectors? 

[Asha124]

Well, that was insulting. I felt absolutely nothing during Dean's dying speech because I was so done with the show at that point. I choose 15x19 as the finale and will erase ever watching this episode out of my memory.

Can't wait to see Jensen's beautiful face in other projects that will hopefully treat him right. Season 3 of The Boys can't come soon enough.

Edited November 20, 2020 by Asha124

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

No conflict, but also no love (if you weren't fortunate enough to have someone when you died).

There's love, just not romantic love. Even if you were with someone when you died.  Heaven's not like Earth. It's different.  There's no real way to explain it. But, there won't be conflict, because everyone will be at peace.  Everyone will love everyone. It's a perfect paradise.  

 

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

hat if your heaven conflicts with someone  else's? It just doesn't work for me. 

Again, there's no conflict, so that won't happen.

[catrox14]

Random thoughts on the episode:

I am pretty certain Badd did lift Dean's death from AHBL. But this time it was Sam crying over Dean. And yet the only thing Sam did was listen to Dean sing his praises. Not once did Sam say anything like "Thank you" or "I love you, too".  I mean I get Sam was in a bit of shock, but you'd think he could have squeeked something nice to say to Dean about Dean before he dies. JFC.

Dean did not get a peaceful death. He died traumatically and he had to practically beg Sam to stay with him. He was scared of dying alone. That is not peaceful. The only thing that made it tolerable was Jensen's performance. No offense to Jared but I thought that was Jared's tears more than Sam's.

Also, no one can convince me that a shirtless Sam followed not long after by a Walker promo wasn't a plea for some SPN family to follow Jared to Walker with a carrot of shirtless Sam.  I also think Sam going to Austin for a hunt and closing down the bunker was another stealth promo for Walker because it's going to be set and filmed in Austin. Kind of telling the audience that Sam is gone but Jared will be in Austin.

I thought that paperwork on Dean's desk was likely a will.

So, back when Sam said no one will remember them except the people they save means the Winchester gospels no longer exist? And with Dean's belongings presumably still in the bunker,  did Sam leave them there in case Mrs Butters ever comes back? Or will they stay there for an eternity? That was weird.

I'm sure I'll have more random musings later.

#deandeservedbetter

 

[Aeryn13]

8 minutes ago, Binns said:

 

I’m looking forward to the next con or interview - I hope someone gets JA to tell them what his problems were at first. Feel like he’s been wanting to tell us. And I don’t think it’s been a tease to say things like “down the line, who knows” etc. This finale was seriously affected by COVID. I have no doubt it would have been packed with guest stars if not for that and probably Misha. 

I know it won't happen but I hope Jensen never does another interview or Con that is about SPN. He should drop it in the trash like they did his character.

At this point I'm not sure I can ever rewatch a single bit of it. Maybe in a year or 5.

[gonzosgirrl]

5 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Again, there's no conflict, so that won't happen

So every person who ever died and made it to heaven is suddenly okay with everything and everyone else else? By magic? I can't wrap my head around that. 

[Binns]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Random thoughts on the episode:

I am pretty certain Badd did lift Dean's death from AHBL. But this time it was Sam crying over Dean. And yet the only thing Sam did was listen to Dean sing his praises. Not once did Sam say anything like "Thank you" or "I love you, too".  I mean I get Sam was in a bit of shock, but you'd think he could have squeeked something nice to say to Dean about Dean before he dies. JFC.

And with Dean's belongings presumably still in the bunker,  did Sam leave them there in case Mrs Butters ever comes back? Or will they stay there for an eternity? That was weird.

I'm sure I'll have more random musings later.

#deandeservedbetter

 

I agree re Sam saying SOMETHING but also that he was in shock...it was so sudden. 
 

re Dean’s belongings...again, not good that I have to do this in my head but I think we just didn’t see Sam packing the Impala. 

[Bergamot]

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Bobby said the walls were down, but I imagine that you still only have people you want around you.  Otherwise what's to stop you from having the annoying neighbour you couldn't stand on Earth move in  next door again in Heaven? 

LOL, gonzosgirrl! Now I am thinking of all the people that I would not want living next door to me in heaven! 😄

I think Dabb made a mistake in being so concrete as to what Heaven was like now that Jack has changed things. I think Heaven should represent something wonderful, but also be something that you can't really imagine until you experience it. Something beautiful and sublime, yet mysterious. The Heaven that Dabb came up with seemed kind of well, pedestrian. Like if you found and lived in a neighborhood that you really loved on Earth, and then it just got transferred upstairs to Heaven.

I think it would have worked better if Dean had been greeted by Bobby in what was basically the anteroom to Heaven, maybe surrounded by a mysterious mist. Or maybe a beautiful garden.  Bobby could have told him that Jack had fixed things there, so that it wasn't just being by yourself reliving your memories. He could then have simply told Dean that this was the Heaven that he deserved, and that he would be with those he loved. Then Dean would get in his heavenly Impala and drive off into the mist. And then we would not see Dean again until he drives onto the bridge and Sam joins him there.

It's kind of like they did with Hell. Dean's time in Hell always affected me more powerfully than Sam's, or any subsequent depiction of Hell, because they never really showed it. (I remember Sera Gamble saying something about how that first scene, where Dean was screaming while he was suspended in space with hooks and chains, was not actually Hell, but just the "waiting room" before you actually entered Hell.) Once the show tried to give us a concrete depiction of Hell, it lost its power for me. Heaven is the same way -- they should have left it more up to our imaginations.

Edited November 20, 2020 by Bergamot

[eXiled]

I last stopped watching this show in Season 7, year of the Leviathan and Cas-God. I have such awesome memories of Seasons 1-5 that I had to watch the show's finale and give my boys a proper sendoff.

I liked that it reminded me of an early episode at first -- the boys fighting a Monster-of-the-Week. I liked that there were no angels or demons present (elements that actually drove me away from the show). I wish Dean's death (and later Sam's) had had more of an effect on me, but I think I've watched the guys die way too many times for it to mean anything, even if these were true deaths.

The moment Dean started asking Sam to make his death okay, I realized I was going to be watching a badly done Six Feet Under montage, and I became annoyed. Like, I totally called it and was hoping that my bad fanfic-writing heart was wrong, but then it happened. Apparently, I too can write for television. Maybe I'll start working on spec scripts for my favorite shows.

Sam's gray wig was the episode's highlight.

This show used to be one of my absolute, must-watch favorites. It actually hurts me that I cared so little for watching its end. Still love my boys, though. Carry on!

I'll continue my yearly streaming re-watches, where I pretend the show was done after Swan Song. Season 5 seems to be my limit with paranormal shows. I treat Buffy the same way.

Edited November 20, 2020 by eXiled

[Binns]

22 minutes ago, Katy M said:

There's love, just not romantic love. Even if you were with someone when you died.  Heaven's not like Earth. It's different.  There's no real way to explain it. But, there won't be conflict, because everyone will be at peace.  Everyone will love everyone. It's a perfect paradise.  

 

Again, there's no conflict, so that won't happen.

I think you and I are in agreement about this. You don’t have to answer if it’s too personal but were you raised religious? I was raised RC and my idea of heaven is colored by that though I don’t practice anymore. We saw before that heaven was a thin imitation of life but it really seemed like they fixed it (by magic Jack and Cas, I guess). Dean seemed to really be at peace especially once Sam arrived. 
 

I don’t know, maybe I’m trying too hard to have satisfactory closure on this show that has been a part of my life for a decade (I came to it a little later). I don’t want to be bitter about it. 

Edited November 20, 2020 by Binns
Removed random apostrophe, what the hell

[Katy M]

7 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

So every person who ever died and made it to heaven is suddenly okay with everything and everyone else else? By magic? I can't wrap my head around that. 

It's not magic. It's grace.  And, yes, it's hard to understand because we have limited perspective as humans.

[Pondlass1]

Sam aged quickly and died young judging by the age of his son at the deathbed. And I know it’s a tight budget but couldn’t they have sprayed grey dye onto Sam’s hair instead of some dollar store wig?  At least it didn’t follow him up to heaven.

I haven’t paid much attention to these past few episodes, but when God Jack brought everyone back, why did he also bring back monsters? 

 

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, Binns said:

I think you and I are in agreement about this. You don’t have to answer if it’s too personal but we’re you raised religious? I was raised RC and my idea of heaven is colored by that though I don’t practice anymore. We saw before that heaven was a thin imitation of life but it really seemed like they fixed it (by magic Jack and Cas, I guess). Dean seemed to really be at peace especially once Sam arrived. 

I wasn't raised religious, but I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior when i was 21.  Ever since they've introduced angels onto this show, I've felt guilty watching it, but pretended they were something else.  When they made Chuck God and a bad guy, that really was too much, which is why I only scantily watched this season.

2 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

haven’t paid much attention to these past few episodes, but when God Jack brought everyone back, why did he also bring back monsters? 

I think he just put it back the way it was.

[thesupremediva1]

I watched the pilot on a tiny TV in my dorm room as a freshman in college. I saw a promo with that hot blonde guy who'd been on Days of Our Lives years ago and immediately decided I was in.

Watched the first two seasons, went abroad for a year, and was out of the loop for about 8 seasons until I got Netflix and caught all the way up through season 11. I watched 12 and 13 but wasn't terribly invested past that (except for Lebanon, I tuned in for that). I didn't watch this season at all, til the finale. I kind of think I made the right choice. 

I appreciate what they went for here - it was a hearkening back to the pilot. No weird arc, no ancillary characters, just the brothers, Baby, Dad's journal, and a case. I loved it until they had to kill Dean. But man, Jensen deserves an Emmy. I was sobbing from the first bit of dialogue. 

They needed a better makeup artist for old Sam, it was so bad it took me right out of it. It's cute that he had a kid and named him Dean, and I'm not bitter that he got the apple pie life he always wanted, but all of it needed more than 10 minutes. This needed to be at least a 90-minute episode. Did Sam finally go to law school and become a lawyer? Who did he marry? Were they happy? Did she pass before him? Why was only his son at his bedside when he passed?

I think what was driven home this episode was that Sam and Dean were life partners, soul mates, and the loves of each other's lives. Sad to say but the wife and son were secondary to Sam, I guess - Dean was, is, and always will be his person. 

Dean deserves Heaven, and Bobby telling him so was great. But that scene would have really worked if Sam Smith and JDM had been there with Jim Beaver. It was a massive miss for me not to see the parents greeting their son.

I would even have been ok seeing Cas there too. But I didn't miss him and I didn't need him in the whole ep.

I can't be too mad about all of it. Dean knew how he wanted to go out, and even if I wanted him to get a chance to have a son and pass on a legacy, I'm ok with him doing what he loved with Sam by his side. Heaven is not a place of motivation or longing. You're supposed to get peace and perspective up there. Dean gets to enjoy beers and burgers and his family. I don't want to think of anyone, especially Dean, working for all eternity. That's not the point. He took a nice drive, and 40-ish years passed on earth, and here comes Sammy. I like to think that during that drive, Dean got some insight into Sam leading a good life with a son as Dean's namesake, and Dean enjoyed the drive.

I will probably rewatch at least a dozen eps of this series once a year, because they're that good. I'm not sure yet if this will be one of them, but I'll say I'm thankful it's not something I will feel the need to avoid. 

Edited November 20, 2020 by thesupremediva1

[Binns]

3 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

.

It's kind of like they did with Hell. Dean's time in Hell always affected me more powerfully than Sam's, or any subsequent depiction of Hell, because they never really showed it. (I remember Sera Gamble saying that something about how that first scene, where Dean was screaming while he was suspended in space with hooks and chains, was not actually Hell, but just the "waiting room" before you actually entered Hell.) Once the show tried to give us a concrete depiction of Hell, it lost its power for me. Heaven is the same way -- they should have left it more up to our imaginations.

Oh, I never heard that about the waiting room for Hell! That’s intriguing. I agree with you about how they portrayed it later...think it took some of the power away to show nicely lit hallways, and a pretty large lack of sounds of eternal torment and torture and one random room with a cage. Even when Sam went to get Bobby it underwhelmed. He found him in 5 minutes. Hell is huge! 

[sarthaz]

3 minutes ago, Binns said:

Even when Sam went to get Bobby it underwhelmed. He found him in 5 minutes. Hell is huge! 

Top 10 worst episodes of the series. Dabb takes a lot of heat and justifiably so, but Buckleming ... geezus.

[Binns]

5 minutes ago, thesupremediva1 said:

I think what was drove home this episode was that Sam and Dean were life partners, soul mates, and the loves of each other's lives. Sad to say but the wife and son were secondary to Sam, I guess - Dean was, is, and always will be his person. 

 

I agree with this. I think Jared did a good job showing that while Sam was living a good life, something was missing, and it caused him some pain every day. 

[sarthaz]

I find myself surprisingly OK with this finale, and I think it's because (like Dean), I'm finally at peace. I genuinely love this show, and watching it get trashed by Badd for years now has been really difficult. The fear of how royally he would ruin the ending has been a dark cloud over my heart since "Don't Call Me Shurley". Now I can let go of that and go back to happy rewatches. My heaven will be returning to so many amazing and wonderful episodes of this great show, and I think I can be OK with that.

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, Katy M said:

It's not magic. It's grace.  And, yes, it's hard to understand because we have limited perspective as humans.

Maybe IRL , but Dean and Sam have met ans soent a lot of time with Celestial being so i think they would have an understanding, until the writers say they dont.

As to the show, would it be  grace that Gack has put upon those who get to heaven so they will only have good memories? Is this grace that a human bestows on another human? Do they not have the choice to remain hurt and unforgiving in Heaven with no apologies given by those who have done the hurting? 

If Gack has made them all live in heaven together without resolving anything between them, then isn't he kind of already taking an active role in humans lives? It's just so treacly to me.

[Hana Chan]

I can totally get why people found this finale unsatisfying. I liked it (for the most part) and I still found it unsatisfying. I just believe that it's nearly impossible to wrap up a show that's been on as long as SPN has been and conclude it in a way that all fans would be happy with. I think that the only long-running show that really stuck the landing was M*A*S*H* (and given how long ago that finale was aired shows how hard getting it right is). The Castiel fans are pissed that he didn't appear in the finale at all (and was relegated to a few passing comments). Dean's fans wanted a better conclusion for him and Sam's fans weren't exactly jumping for joy at his storyline either. My chosen ending would have been a true Butch & Sundance ending, where we see them facing off against insurmountable odds where death was all but certain and the screen goes black, letting the audience decide for themselves if they made it or not.

Personally, I found it made sense that one of the brothers would die relatively quickly after that final confrontation with Chuck. They no longer had "plot armor" that allowed them so many escapes and resurrections, so now it was a relatively innocuous accident on a basic hunt that took out Dean. It was a price that came with having the full freedom that both he and Sam wanted so badly. Without being at the whims of a powerful supernatural being, Dean and Sam were now just two mortals doing an extremely dangerous job. It broke my heart but Dean went out on his own terms, doing what he loved.

It was equally tragic to see Sam trying to manage on his own. I thought back to Mystery Spot, where he totally shut down after losing Dean and watching him go through the motions of living after Dean's death broke my heart. He lost his brother and his home (since there was no way that he could stay at the bunker without Dean). Sam might have found some peace while raising his son helped, but there was no question that Dean's loss remained the primary focus of his life. That even decades after the fact, he couldn't sit behind the wheel of the Impala without breaking down. He named his child after his brother and wore Dean's watch. He might have had moments of happiness and even peace, but he never stopped mourning. He aged quickly (since his son appeared to be in his early 20s, which means that Sam only outlived Dean by maybe 30 years at most) and judging from the hospital bed his home's living room, I'm guessing that Sam had died of a long-standing illness since generally old folk don't keep hospital equipment in their homes.

I tried to figure out why Dean and Bobby looked the age that they'd died when they were in Heaven while Sam was brought back to the apparent age he'd been when he lost Dean but my guess is that Sam "died" when Dean did. The mythology of the show made it clear that the two brothers were bound soul deep and while Sam did manage to go on after losing Dean, he was for the most part biding his time until they could be reunited. Dean was promised that with time being weird in Heaven that he wouldn't have to wait too long and he didn't. Just the length of time to take a casual drive in Baby. The two of them can now do what they loved most - driving the roads and being together without the threat of danger that had always hung over their heads. They both could enjoy the peace that they so dearly earned.

I wish that the show could have had a full two hours for their finale because it would have given them room to give the wrap up better focus. I would like to have seen the boys enjoying their lives a bit more, rediscovering their purposes in life now that Chuck wasn't pulling their strings. Dean deserved more than just a pie festival and a dog. And afterwards, I would have liked to see how Sam managed to find his way along before having his son. 

[Bobcatkitten]

I generally try to find the good in episodes and I liked it. Perfect? Heck no. But good. 

 

I see a few groups of people mad - Cas fans, which I get sort of. It does seem weird that he had no role in the last two episodes. Definitely a hole. But Misha and the CW made clear for weeks that was it and they just kept hoping.

Then there are people mad that Dean didn't get to live a long life or that the overall ending wasn't more hopeful. But that is not the show and never has been. It was always going to end tragic. And I'm glad fluke rebar did it rather than a monster. And it happened while Dean was "saving people, hunting things" - literally the things he lived to do. He saved those two brothers. And he made sure Sam could go on - always taking care of his little brother to the end. 

 

The bridge scene was shot beautifully!

 

I really enjoyed Bobby greeting Jensen in heaven. Wish there was more to a funeral for Dean but damn COVID. Loved Miracle. Agree a quick photo shop of Eileen would have shown Sam married to her. 

[Binns]

2 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

I can totally get why people found this finale unsatisfying. I liked it (for the most part) and I still found it unsatisfying. I just believe that it's nearly impossible to wrap up a show that's been on as long as SPN has been and conclude it in a way that all fans would be happy with. I think that the only long-running show that really stuck the landing was M*A*S*H* (and given how long ago that finale was aired shows how hard getting it right is). The Castiel fans are pissed that he didn't appear in the finale at all (and was relegated to a few passing comments). Dean's fans wanted a better conclusion for him and Sam's fans weren't exactly jumping for joy at his storyline either. My chosen ending would have been a true Butch & Sundance ending, where we see them facing off against insurmountable odds where death was all but certain and the screen goes black, letting the audience decide for themselves if they made it or not.

Personally, I found it made sense that one of the brothers would die relatively quickly after that final confrontation with Chuck. They no longer had "plot armor" that allowed them so many escapes and resurrections, so now it was a relatively innocuous accident on a basic hunt that took out Dean. It was a price that came with having the full freedom that both he and Sam wanted so badly. Without being at the whims of a powerful supernatural being, Dean and Sam were now just two mortals doing an extremely dangerous job. It broke my heart but Dean went out on his own terms, doing what he loved.

It was equally tragic to see Sam trying to manage on his own. I thought back to Mystery Spot, where he totally shut down after losing Dean and watching him go through the motions of living after Dean's death broke my heart. He lost his brother and his home (since there was no way that he could stay at the bunker without Dean). Sam might have found some peace while raising his son helped, but there was no question that Dean's loss remained the primary focus of his life. That even decades after the fact, he couldn't sit behind the wheel of the Impala without breaking down. He named his child after his brother and wore Dean's watch. He might have had moments of happiness and even peace, but he never stopped mourning. He aged quickly (since his son appeared to be in his early 20s, which means that Sam only outlived Dean by maybe 30 years at most) and judging from the hospital bed his home's living room, I'm guessing that Sam had died of a long-standing illness since generally old folk don't keep hospital equipment in their homes.

I tried to figure out why Dean and Bobby looked the age that they'd died when they were in Heaven while Sam was brought back to the apparent age he'd been when he lost Dean but my guess is that Sam "died" when Dean did. The mythology of the show made it clear that the two brothers were bound soul deep and while Sam did manage to go on after losing Dean, he was for the most part biding his time until they could be reunited. Dean was promised that with time being weird in Heaven that he wouldn't have to wait too long and he didn't. Just the length of time to take a casual drive in Baby. The two of them can now do what they loved most - driving the roads and being together without the threat of danger that had always hung over their heads. They both could enjoy the peace that they so dearly earned.

I wish that the show could have had a full two hours for their finale because it would have given them room to give the wrap up better focus. I would like to have seen the boys enjoying their lives a bit more, rediscovering their purposes in life now that Chuck wasn't pulling their strings. Dean deserved more than just a pie festival and a dog. And afterwards, I would have liked to see how Sam managed to find his way along before having his son. 

Wow, you really captured my feelings about this so well. Much more eloquently than I could. 

[Bergamot]

You know, when I saw Sam with that cute little blond toddler, and saw the name "Dean" embroidered on his little overalls, just for a moment I thought that it was actually the real Dean! Did anyone else think that? Like, somehow after we had seen Dean driving off into Heaven, he had been reincarnated as a little boy, and was going to live his life again, except that Sam was going to raise him!

Okay, I might have read a fanfic story like this at one time. 😊

Anyway, I was excited about this for just a second, before I realized my mistake. I still think it would have been kind of an interesting ending, though.

[tennisgurl]

At the time, while Dean was dying and was telling Sam how proud he was of him and how he would be fine without him and how he was the best of them, I was getting really annoyed (plus I was still in shock by what was happening) that the show was falling back into Sam worship and putting Dean down and even that Dean has still not gotten past seeing himself as damaged goods who's only purpose in life was looking out for Sam, but after sleeping on it, I am a bit more alright with it. Its really in character for Dean to spend even his last moments trying to look after Sam, telling him that he knows he can make it as Sam cries that he cant keep going without him and giving him one last pep talk before he goes, still taking care of his brother until the end. He knew that was what Sam needed if Dean was going to die right then and there. I do really wish that Sam had at least told Dean how much he meant to him and that he loved him before he died. Of course Dean knows that, but its still probably nice to hear as your seconds from bleeding out, especially considering Deans massive self worth issues. 

I am also glad that Gack fixed crappy lonely memory heaven so that people can see each other if they want and have a real afterlife, and that he also saved Cas from super extra Hell, although it sure would have been nice to see him one last time reuniting with Dean. I also find it weird that they never really confirmed whether Gack saved the hunters from the AU world and Eileen who all got dusted by Billie before Chuck disappeared everyone else, one throw away line could have told us. Not that I care very much about the AU hunters, but I would like to know if Eileen made it, and it seems like a weird plot point to leave dangling.

Edited November 20, 2020 by tennisgurl

[S Cook Productions]

Well I have lots of feelings, but overall I think I’m satisfied for the most part. I can’t really see how they could have ended it too much differently, although I have a few minor nitpicks and one major one (the lack of Cas). 

All in all, I’ve only watched it once and it definitely warrants a rewatch; but I think even Dean himself said this was sort of inevitable. My hubby thought it was weird that a piece of rebar was what got him in the end- but I think somehow it was poetically fitting- showing he was human after all, even though he was larger than life. I had 9 ppl over for a socially distanced watch party, and there wasn’t a dry eye in the house the second half of the episode. I don’t think this show has ever made me cry before these last 3 episodes. A lot of that might be because it’s over though and I’m mourning. Still, I thought J2 knocked out out of the park.  That death scene. My God. So sad. 
I know it’s corny, but it also got me when you see the kid skipping and his name is Dean. 
The one thing I really didn’t like though was no Cas. I’m glad we got confirmation that he is out of the Empty and helping restructure Heaven, but I really thought we should have seen him in a cameo a la Bobby (which I did like). I think ending the series with a focus on Sam and Dean but a cameo and side order of Bobby and Cas would have been appropriate- as I feel those 4 are the core of the show. Bobby and Cas could have represented everyone else. 
I wonder if COVID stopped other cameos. It will be interesting to hear about this. I can’t make Jared’s and Misha’s panel on Sunday, but hopefully I’ll read about it here because I’m genuinely curious as to what they have to say.  
I also thought Eileen got a raw deal. Was Sam married to her? I choose to think he was or why set that up all season? They could have done a quick something with the son using sign language or something so we would know. An easy fix. I understand a lot of the ep was meant to be ambiguous for us so we can use our imaginations for years to come thinking about this episode and series (like I did all night and getting no sleep), but I feel this could have been addressed better. 
I love Miracle.
I like the ambiguousness of Sam’s son hunting (he did have the tattoo). 
I love the reunion at the end. 
Like I said, lots of feels and it deserves a rewatch. I probably will have more to say. It was mostly satisfying, but the lack of Cas bothered me a great deal (even though I suspected it would go down just like this). I didn’t actually expect to be moved to tears though for real. 
 

 

[Myrelle]

3 hours ago, PAForrest said:

Jensen is way too self-deprecating, especially when it comes to JP, like he feels he has to be. Hopefully with everyone moving on in their separate lives he'll stop doing that sooner than later. Because without Jensen Ackles giving everything to a script that wasn't good enough for him and quite blatantly did not do right by his 15 year iconic character, as he always felt it didn't, this episode would have really sucked.

Yeah, I'm going to have to agree with this. 

I'll take any further comments concerning this to either the B vs J or the Unpopular Opinions thread except to say that I think I have a pretty good idea as to why JP loved this one and even named it his favorite of the entire series.

As for Jensen, he's the sole reason that I've been coming back for more of this show every week since S5, to be perfectly honest.

As an actor, and to me, since then, he's generally just seemed to eclipse most of the other actors that he's ever worked with on this show, except for a few that could usually go toe-to-toe with him-such as the actors who played Cain, Uriel, Alastair, and the first Death.

That's not to say that others haven't had their moments, but again for me, they had those moments when the writing best afforded them that while Jensen, for Dean, has had to turn a sow's ear into a silk purse more often than not with the writing on this show, again since S5.

So yes, I woke up this morning with a hollow feeling in my gut because Dean Winchester is gone from the real world for me.

And thanks to the writing, his death became All About Sam again and some more and it didn't have to be that way.

And for those that want to believe that that's who and all that Dean has always been, I'll just say that for me(and all thanks to Jensen Ackles and no one else, IMO), that's only a part of what made Dean the best and most truly tragic character on the show.

And he bested even Badd's writing and showrunning for his character, IMO.

I'm now thinking that Jensen's "peace" as an actor will more  be granted in his next acting acting endeavor on The Boys-but anything more on that is for another thread. 

I will add that for me JP's only noticeable moment in this one came when Sam went to the car when he was old and gripped the same steering wheel that his brother had so often gripped when he was alive. That one worked for me.

[gonzosgirrl]

46 minutes ago, Katy M said:

It's not magic. It's grace.  And, yes, it's hard to understand because we have limited perspective as humans.

For me that's no better than Memorex heaven. I don't really believe in absolution either though. 

[TheGreenKnight]

12 hours ago, Dobian said:

Strange that they never showed who Sam's wife was, just his son.  It felt awkward. 

It made sense to me. Sam's life was ultimately about Dean more than whoever the wife might've been. It reminds me of when Dean was in purgatory, and Sam really just landed with the first woman he ran across; whoever the wife might be was ultimately irrelevant, he even named their son after Dean. Sam and Dean were revealed to be soulmates in the early seasons after all.

As much as people are complaining about Dean dying on a regular hunt, to me that was why I liked the finale? Dean always said this is how it would be, that he'd die a completely random death while hunting, that he would never grow old. Sam's part of the episode was more tragic for me, having to be the one left alone without Dean (or Cas, Jack, Rowena, Bobby, Mary, etc.) for 30 to 50 years living what was clearly an unsatisfying life waiting until he could finally be reunited with Dean. I think that's why I liked how Dean went driving until Sam was in Heaven with him, because he could never believably be at peace until Sam was at peace, too.

[juppschmitz]

1 hour ago, Binns said:

I agree re Sam saying SOMETHING but also that he was in shock...it was so sudden. 

Well, I would have thought Dean was in shock, being impaled and realizing he's dying and all, and HE could manage to shower Sam with praise...

[Binns]

Just now, juppschmitz said:

Well, I would have thought Dean was in shock, being impaled and realizing he's dying and all, and HE could manage to shower Sam with praise...

Valid! 

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, Dobian said:

t was Eileen, and the actress wasn't available.  I find this implausible since she was there about three episodes from the end. 

The last episode Eileen was in was The Trap which was filmed well before shutdown. I think that was even before Christmas break, but maybe not.  I have no concept of time anymore.

ETA: It was aired in January, so filmed before Covid was rampant.

1 hour ago, Dobian said:

t was someone else.  We know that Billie was going to kill everyone who was supposed to be dead.  Eileen was supposed to be dead.  It turned out that God killed literally everybody, but when Jack brought people back I suspect that everyone who was supposed to be dead stayed dead.

I suppose that's possible, but he brought back Cas, who had also died numerous times.

Edited November 20, 2020 by Katy M