S05.E04: Honestly

[Boo Boo]

I also have a problem with the way they wrote the birthmom story.  I feel like the only reason they came up with this story is b/c she and Kate seem to be close to the same age and therefore they'll bond better than she would with a teen -- so they'll drag out this Kate being friends with birth mom story and then it will be that much more dramatic and sad when the birthmom keeps the baby.

[Snapdragon]

I'm assuming the "teenage Kate is pregnant" storyline ends with her getting an abortion because the alternative is that Kate gives the baby up for adoption, that baby grows up and ends up getting pregnant at 20 and decides to give that baby up for adoption and Kate ends up adopting her own grandkid.  You know this show would do it!

[MissLucas]

I find it interesting that they did not opt for a teenage pregnancy for Ellie. That's such a worn trope. Unwanted pregnancies happen all the time (and btw. she wasn't the only one who should have been more careful) - and they happen to women in all sorts of situations of life. I guess we will have to see how they handle Ellie's daughter, no doubt that will be a plotpoint further down the road. Depending on how Ellie presented the pregnancy to her daughter she might not think of the baby as a sibling, but a baby Mum is creating for someone else who would like to have a kid and can't do it on their own. I suppose that's how surrogates explain the situation to their kids. 

[SnarkySheep]

On 11/17/2020 at 10:02 PM, Scarlett45 said:

Malik, I generally love you, but Randall doesn’t need the “I have a child” speech from you- please stop. 

To me, this was a subtle reminder of just how young Malik still is. He's explaining his situation as though it's something unusual - which of course, compared to most teens, he is. But he's in a workplace now, where the majority of his coworkers will also have kids and outside responsibilities, so it's not any kind of excuse to a boss. For an adult to tell their employer they had to get up early with their child would literally be the equivalent of telling them you had to shower and eat, so hey, they should pat you on the back for being just a few minutes late. 

[bybrandy]

It isn't as unusual as you would think for women to give children up for adoption after having older children.  I'm not making any judgements on this story I'm just pointing out that while it certainly isn't wildly common it also isn't nearly as unusual as you would think.  In these cases the women usually tell their older children a version of the truth.  There are also lots of moms of older children who act as surrogates and explain to their older children that the baby won't be their sibling/living with them.   

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 11/23/2020 at 12:13 AM, Blakeston said:

I think Kevin antagonized Randall more than vice versa.

I'd guess that Kevin didn't resent Kate the way he resented Randall because a) Kate didn't outdo Kevin at anything, whereas Randall was clearly smarter and harder-working than Kevin was, and b) Kate was Kevin's biological sibling, and so he didn't feel like she was an interloper.

Kevin was never going to be constantly compared to a sister, but a same-age brother who excels academically and is very mature?  Everyone is going to compare them, including Kevin himself.  Thus, the resentment.

Of course, Kevin might also have butted heads with his biological brother if he had survived and outshone him in some major way.  However, it probably (subconsciously) rankled more that Randall wasn't "supposed" to be there to compete with him.  If it had been just Kate and Kevin, likely there would have been a "boys-will-be-boys" attitude about Kevin's shortcomings, but Randall proved that that old chestnut isn't necessarily true.

[Scarlett45]

10 hours ago, bybrandy said:

It isn't as unusual as you would think for women to give children up for adoption after having older children.  I'm not making any judgements on this story I'm just pointing out that while it certainly isn't wildly common it also isn't nearly as unusual as you would think.  In these cases the women usually tell their older children a version of the truth.  There are also lots of moms of older children who act as surrogates and explain to their older children that the baby won't be their sibling/living with them.   

Yes I agree. 

4 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Kevin was never going to be constantly compared to a sister, but a same-age brother who excels academically and is very mature?  Everyone is going to compare them, including Kevin himself.  Thus, the resentment.

Of course, Kevin might also have butted heads with his biological brother if he had survived and outshone him in some major way.  However, it probably (subconsciously) rankled more that Randall wasn't "supposed" to be there to compete with him.  If it had been just Kate and Kevin, likely there would have been a "boys-will-be-boys" attitude about Kevin's shortcomings, but Randall proved that that old chestnut isn't necessarily true.

I agree with this as well. Some have speculated that Kyle was Kevin’s identical twin. I could see Kevin having issues of being over looked if Kyle was like Randall in temperament, or was disabled in some way. Kevin would be the “typical one” who didn’t need as much attention- he reminds me a lot of some of my peers in the Sib Advocacy world. 

[Ohmo]

On 11/24/2020 at 5:18 AM, debraran said:

Her dad wouldn't see her as anything but his "baby girl" and only to my recollection ever told her to stop when putting down her mom only once. I never saw Jack as perfect, no dad is, but he made Kate very weak. She had to believe she was worth more from more people than him. I had low self esteem as a teen, no matter how thin I was etc. The roots aren't always weight, but are still important.

The idea that she had to believe in herself more seems to me like a historical perspective. Kate was a child of the 80s and 90s.  I came of age in the late '70s and the 80s.  The 80s were the decade where I really had memories of what was happening in the world and my place in it.  The idea of girls valuing their worth was not as emphasized as much as it is now.  Not that it wasn't discussed.  It probably was, but it wasn't as widespread.  I don't think it was Jack making her "weak" or Kate not doing something.  There simply wasn't awareness of it then as there is now.  I'm Gen X, and I think what we're seeing in subsequent generations comes from what we weren't as aware of when I was growing up.  I think that's true about most generations.  You learn (and hopefully grow and progress) from the generations that came before you.

[talktoomuch]

On 11/19/2020 at 2:58 PM, Boo Boo said:

<snip> it makes me think she purposefully tried to get pregnant to keep her abusive boyfriend and then he beat the shit out of her or emotionally abused her so she decided to abort?

My guess is that a purposeful pregnancy was the controlling older boyfriend's idea to force Kate to be tied to him. Especially after her family breaking her out at the cabin. Remember how he would love bomb her after every abusive incident? I think he did that times 20 after the cabin, and convinced her that her having his baby would force the Pearsons to accept him.

On 11/20/2020 at 11:52 AM, Tango64 said:

The bio mom still seems super sketchy to me. When she was telling the story of why she doesn't like the name Chloe, it all sounded to me like someone who is proud of having a vivid imagination and being able to make up a story on the spot.

Yes! That story sounded super fake. This explanation makes sense. 

On 11/21/2020 at 11:01 AM, debraran said:

When the original contract had weight loss I think they wanted her to go through a cathartic period and find why it happened and Chrissy and Kate both lost. But I think they realized they can't address something like that in a contract and decided to write around it. 

In this forum many imply that the show benevolently let Chrissy Metz off the hook from her original contract. But there is little doubt in my mind that Chrissy consulted a lawyer about that clause in her contract. And said lawyer showed Fogelman it would be in his best interests not to attempt to enforce it. The bad publicity and potential lawsuit could tank the show.

[chocolatine]

1 hour ago, talktoomuch said:

In this forum many imply that the show benevolently let Chrissy Metz off the hook from her original contract. But there is little doubt in my mind that Chrissy consulted a lawyer about that clause in her contract. And said lawyer showed Fogelman it would be in his best interests not to attempt to enforce it. The bad publicity and potential lawsuit could tank the show.

I doubt that her contract ever had an explicit weight loss clause. NBC's lawyers presumably aren't idiots; they wouldn't have put in anything that isn't enforceable in California. It probably had a clause about her following some kind of training (and possibly nutritional) regimen, which many actors do in preparation for a role or during filming.

[debraran]

2 hours ago, chocolatine said:

I doubt that her contract ever had an explicit weight loss clause. NBC's lawyers presumably aren't idiots; they wouldn't have put in anything that isn't enforceable in California. It probably had a clause about her following some kind of training (and possibly nutritional) regimen, which many actors do in preparation for a role or during filming.

Maybe but it was Chrissy who mentioned it, she gave numerous interviews and mentioned how it was a win-win for her and how she didn't want it to be all about weight with Kate. I don't know about legalities but since contracts are a certain length and she was part of the family, and the show was a hit, I'm sure as Fogleman said You have a long term plan and change it like life. She also said later on “It wasn’t contracted, it wasn’t mandated that I had to do this, but I knew that this was going to happen in the trajectory of the character and so it wasn’t a big deal," she explained. “I think it’s still weird for people to be like, ‘Oh, she’s the big girl, oh, she’s on network television.’ I think that’s still really new for them.”

Whatever happened, the weight loss was put to the side and I do hope they make her more than her weight. No matter what they write about, it has to be there, infertility, adoption, etc. I was hoping a job, even something she can do from home, would have her more dimensional and have nothing to do with weight.

 

[qtpye]

On 11/19/2020 at 7:48 AM, circumvent said:

I haven't really noticed but maybe another storyline? I guess the point of the episode was to show more of Kevin and how he deals with things as an adult, and that has to do with how Jack pushed him. I don't have an opinion on the efficacy or value, but I guess that might be the writer's point. Kevin does't have an obvious hurdle in life. Randall has the race issue, Kate the weight/health/guilty issue. Kevin mostly keeps to himself. He did have the drinking problem but that part seems to be under control for now and the writers needed something else. I did like the episode's focus on him

I just feel like Jack pushes the boys to be the best men they can be because he thinks men take care of the world.

He does not push Kate in any way because he believes that some man will take care of her so she does not need to be disciplined or strong.

I am a little younger than the Big Three and my father came from a very backwards and misognystic society.

He always taught me to be independent and strong. He pushed me the way Jack pushes Kevin and Randall to be the best I can be and never really coddled me in that manner.

He thinks Rebecca makes Kevin soft, but she should have asked him about why does he purposely spoil Kate.

And no..."She's my baby girl and that means she is entitled to anything she wants" is not an answer.

 

Edited December 17, 2020 by qtpye

[debraran]

3 hours ago, qtpye said:

I just feel like Jack pushes the boys to be the best men they can be because he thinks men take care of the world.

He does not push Kate in any way because he believes that some man will take care of her so she does not need to be disciplined or strong.

I am a little younger than the Big Three and my father came from a very backwards and misognystic society.

He always taught me to be independent and strong. He pushed me the way Jack pushes Kevin and Randall to be the best I can be and never really coddled me in that manner.

He thinks Rebecca makes Kevin soft, but she should have asked him about why does he purposely spoil Kate.

And no..."She's my baby girl and that means she is entitled to anything she wants" is not an answer.

 

I know they couldn't make her happy or the later episodes would seem odd re weight and depression, but Kate was an average white girl in a big school. There is no reason she couldn't have one good friend or a hobby or club or something that made her feel better about herself. She liked to sing, was there a choir or group she could have been apart of? I know the outline of her character had her spoiled by dad, jealous of mom and lacking any self esteem but why? Even if Jack lived, would she just stay with him or want to be close to home. I just don't understand her younger years or why Jack made Rebecca the "bad parent" and rarely tried to make her own her own gifts.

I was brought up in the 60's and 70's and envied kids who parents saw their girls the same as the boys.  I have a work friend who is 66 and she said her mom (even battling a drinking problem) made sure all her 5 daughters had a career that would support them without a man. Two became a teacher, a dance instructor, she was an xray tech, and nurse. Things weren't always easy but she said I always had enough money to support myself and I liked my work. Kate was born much later and they made her a question mark. Randall was smart, Kevin was probably smart too but more sport oriented and Kate?

[qtpye]

30 minutes ago, debraran said:

I know they couldn't make her happy or the later episodes would seem odd re weight and depression, but Kate was an average white girl in a big school. There is no reason she couldn't have one good friend or a hobby or club or something that made her feel better about herself. She liked to sing, was there a choir or group she could have been apart of? I know the outline of her character had her spoiled by dad, jealous of mom and lacking any self esteem but why? Even if Jack lived, would she just stay with him or want to be close to home. I just don't understand her younger years or why Jack made Rebecca the "bad parent" and rarely tried to make her own her own gifts.

I was brought up in the 60's and 70's and envied kids who parents saw their girls the same as the boys.  I have a work friend who is 66 and she said her mom (even battling a drinking problem) made sure all her 5 daughters had a career that would support them without a man. Two became a teacher, a dance instructor, she was an xray tech, and nurse. Things weren't always easy but she said I always had enough money to support myself and I liked my work. Kate was born much later and they made her a question mark. Randall was smart, Kevin was probably smart too but more sport oriented and Kate?

Kate was extremely lucky to have a wealthy brother and became his assistant. Later, her husband is established enough so she can stay home and take care of the baby.

Being a housewife is a very demanding role but where would Kate be if Kevin was not so well off or her husband could not afford all the treatments they needed for adorable little Jack?

I know she was a waitress for a while but it seems very unlikely that she could keep up with such a physically intensive job as she gained more weight.

It seems so strange to me that Jack demands so much from both his boys (particularly Kevin) but seems to expect nothing for Kate. I think he actually enables some of her more destructive behavior (like taking just her for ice cream everyday and not telling Rebecca).

[himela]

I think that Jack is the kind of man who would never be with a woman like Kate, because he always paid attention to Rebecca's looks. I find it very hypocritical to be honest. If Jack wanted to teach Kate some self esteem he should not focus on Rebecca's looks so much.

[akiss]

I hated this episode because of the crying baby storyline. Ugh.

 

And Kevin was twice very callous toward Randall's experience being black. I think this will come up later. 

[mtlchick]

The mystery about the ovulation/pregnancy box has been revealed. 

 

In short, it was supposed to be a pregnancy box, but it was a mistake, because you know...COVID! https://ew.com/tv/this-is-us-producers-settle-ovulation-pregnancy-test-debate/?utm_campaign=entertainmentweekly_entertainmentweekly&utm_content=manual&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_term=5ff37a8913cab30001409dc4&fbclid=IwAR3e186ngyBdgkQX70U2zt8gGmdfAUDqPyrC64RRuMzDRHxLf3GQ0mfaI4w

[debraran]

54 minutes ago, mtlchick said:

The mystery about the ovulation/pregnancy box has been revealed. 

 

In short, it was supposed to be a pregnancy box, but it was a mistake, because you know...COVID! https://ew.com/tv/this-is-us-producers-settle-ovulation-pregnancy-test-debate/?utm_campaign=entertainmentweekly_entertainmentweekly&utm_content=manual&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_term=5ff37a8913cab30001409dc4&fbclid=IwAR3e186ngyBdgkQX70U2zt8gGmdfAUDqPyrC64RRuMzDRHxLf3GQ0mfaI4w

I have to admit, covid or no covid, that was pretty big goof. They even zoomed in on it and they don't screen scenes?  Well, I'll be glad to see this end in one show, sad all around and upsetting and something never mentioned earlier really before Kate saw picture of him (and then didn't seem that upset)

[gonzosgirrl]

16 hours ago, mtlchick said:

The mystery about the ovulation/pregnancy box has been revealed. 

 

In short, it was supposed to be a pregnancy box, but it was a mistake, because you know...COVID! https://ew.com/tv/this-is-us-producers-settle-ovulation-pregnancy-test-debate/?utm_campaign=entertainmentweekly_entertainmentweekly&utm_content=manual&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_term=5ff37a8913cab30001409dc4&fbclid=IwAR3e186ngyBdgkQX70U2zt8gGmdfAUDqPyrC64RRuMzDRHxLf3GQ0mfaI4w

Didn't the showrunner already say 'wait and see' or something along those lines, implying it wasn't a mistake?  I mean it doesn't make any sense that it was an ovulation kit, but I'm sure I read that. 

ETA:

Quote

Like the show's fans, Berger enjoys an inventive theory — and she's even generated one of her own to make herself feel better. "I have my own way of explaining this, where I've told myself she was hiding her pregnancy test in her ovulation kit box so that nobody spots her with a pregnancy test," she quips. "It's just how I've justified this in my mind." Chimes in Aptaker: "Her mom finds it and she's like, 'I just like to know when I'm ovulating.'"

Okay show of hands. Who, as a teenage girl, 'just liked to know when they were ovulating', to the extent that it would be a viable, casual reason for having an ovulation test on hand at all times? Jeez, just say it was a mistake and leave it at that.

Edited January 5, 2021 by gonzosgirrl

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Randall and Malik bond over fatherhood and big dreams

Jack wants his kids to know he sees their greatness

 

[millennium]

On 11/17/2020 at 10:17 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

Does anyone have a problem imagining that this girl grew up to be adult Kate? Amazing casting.

The similarity to grown Kate is pretty remarkable; teenage Beth was another casting triumph.   Also 1980 Dr. K and 1997 Dr. K.

But try as I might, I can't reconcile 8th grade Kevin with 17-year-old Kevin.   That one's not even close.

[Aloeonatable]

2 hours ago, millennium said:

The similarity to grown Kate is pretty remarkable; teenage Beth was another casting triumph.   Also 1980 Dr. K and 1997 Dr. K.

But try as I might, I can't reconcile 8th grade Kevin with 17-year-old Kevin.   That one's not even close.

Same actor.

[millennium]

4 minutes ago, Aloeonatable said:

Same actor.

Maybe I was a little off on the ages.   I meant the difference between Parker Bates (13 year old Kevin) and Logan Shroyer (19 year old Kevin)

[Aloeonatable]

18 hours ago, millennium said:

Maybe I was a little off on the ages.   I meant the difference between Parker Bates (13 year old Kevin) and Logan Shroyer (19 year old Kevin)

I meant it was Gerald MacRaney that was Dr. K in both timelines.

[millennium]

54 minutes ago, Aloeonatable said:

I meant it was Gerald MacRaney that was Dr. K in both timelines.

Oh. LOL. I know.   My dry (some would say arid) sense of humor.

Edited June 19, 2022 by millennium