S04.E04: Favourites

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

While Margaret Thatcher struggles with the disappearance of her favorite child, Elizabeth reexamines her relationships with her four children.

Dropping on Sunday, November 15, 2020.

[swanpride]

So far this season has mostly managed to make me dislike the characters more and more and more….if I hear one more time how thankful the land supposedly has to be, I'll consider the writers completely delusional (which they most likely are). But this episode was pretty interesting...not that I was surprised abut the "result" of the question. I was surprised about the whole "movie about older gentlemen having sex with underage girls" thing. I didn't expect that they would even go there, I was convinced that they would try to completely sidestep the whole issue.

Is it bad that I was actually confused for a moment when they mentioned four children? I completely forgot about Edward.

[AZChristian]

2 hours ago, swanpride said:

Is it bad that I was actually confused for a moment when they mentioned four children? I completely forgot about Edward.

Being old enough to remember the birth of the two younger children, I did remember Edward.  But - someone correct me if I'm wrong - did the script err in having Edward say he was 3rd in line to the throne while he was lunching (on poached salmon) with his mummy?  The timing of the luncheon would historically place it in 1982.  At that point, Anne had two children, and Diana had not yet given birth to Williams.

So wouldn't the order of succession at that time be:

Charles

Anne

• Anne's son
• Anne's daughter

Andrew

Edward

And William's birth would then bump everyone but Charles down one, and subsequent children of the queen's children could also have an impact on the succession, depending on where they fell into the lineage.

 

[Lillith]

3 minutes ago, AZChristian said:

 

So wouldn't the order of succession at that time be:

Charles

Anne

• Anne's son
• Anne's daughter

Andrew

Edward

And William's birth would then bump everyone but Charles down one, and subsequent children of the queen's children could also have an impact on the succession, depending on where they fell into the lineage.

 

The boys would have superceded Anne in line for the throne. It was only recently that changed the sucession to the eldest whether male or female. 

 

[AZChristian]

12 minutes ago, Lillith said:

The boys would have superceded Anne in line for the throne. It was only recently that changed the sucession to the eldest whether male or female. 

 

You are correct.  I had forgotten about that.  Thanks. 

[Brn2bwild]

My question coming out of this one is: Anne is so obviously the best of the four children, how can she not be the favorite?

[MerBearStare]

This episode could have been titled Shithead Children. Or more accurately, Shithead Children Don't Fall Far From Their Shithead Parents. Mark Thatcher - shithead. Margaret Thatcher - shithead. The entire royal family - shitheads. 

I used to think Peter Morgan was too enamored of the royal family and the queen in particular, but this season he's really pulling no punches. Now I'm wondering if he's a small-r republican. The royal family is a toxic mess and they really embody the phrase "hurt people hurt people." And they just keep repeating the cycle.

[dubbel zout]

LOL at Elizabeth offering Thatcher a stiff drink. The queen should never be underestimated.

I remember when Mark Thatcher was lost during the Paris-Dakar race. He was something of a problem child.

Edward! I wonder if we'll see him again, heh. I don't need to see Andrew again. I hope his co-pilot got a nice lunch.

I like that the queen was on Diana's side at least as far as Camilla was concerned. In that moment. Charles did need a kick in the pants.

My mom would never admit it, but my younger brother is her favorite and my older brother and I both know it. However, my mom is scrupulously fair—to an extent we three kids joke amongst ourselves about it—so there is no resentment. It must be awful to see a parent favor a sibling the way Thatcher did her son.

[swanpride]

My mother is obsessed with treating us all fairly too, because in her case, her brother was always the fav. The dynamic was quite similar to what was shown in the show with the Thatcher family. Like, my grandmother literally send my uncle money all the time and then my mother had to pay the heating costs for her. And yes, my uncle became an egoistic a-hole too, and yes, it was my mother who did all the caring, just like it happened in the Thatcher family.

 

Quote

I used to think Peter Morgan was too enamored of the royal family and the queen in particular, but this season he's really pulling no punches. Now I'm wondering if he's a small-r republican. The royal family is a toxic mess and they really embody the phrase "hurt people hurt people." And they just keep repeating the cycle

Sometimes I am not sure if we are actually meant to empathize with them or meant to think "what a bunch of shit heads", but there is at least some level of honesty intermixed in it.

[leighdear]

Andrew was my favorite, because he was so damn gorgeous. Yeah, he was slimy and a creep.  But hot.  And funny how he slipped in the name "Koo", for Koo Stark, his infamous girlfriend.  She was beautiful back then and is still attractive these days. 

They really are showing the worst sides of all these folks.  But Helena as Margot just delights me every time she's on screen.  

I do like all the actual news footage they've been using.  It definitely brings the reality level up and brings home how these crisis affected the average folks.   

[swanpride]

Though I look forward to the moment when the quality of the footage gets better. Man, how the hell did we watch any of this stuff in this awful quality back then?

[Brn2bwild]

21 minutes ago, swanpride said:

Though I look forward to the moment when the quality of the footage gets better. Man, how the hell did we watch any of this stuff in this awful quality back then?

I don't remember it being this poor quality -- I think some of it could be due to the age of the footage?

[toodywoody]

Talk about all being all about themselves. All she heard was me, me, me, me. And now that I think about it, I think that is why Charles and Diana were doomed. He was always all about himself and could and would not ever understand anything she was going through.  All he wanted was to carry on like nothing was going on.

[shipmate]

I definitely got the feeling Andrew thought the Queen/crown would be his golden ticket out of being personally involved in the Falkland Islands conflict.

[Runningwild]

4 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

My question coming out of this one is: Anne is so obviously the best of the four children, how can she not be the favorite?

As soon as the Queen asked who was her favorite, I said Andrew. Not sure why I guessed him, but there it is. Frankly, most of these people are insufferable. Andrew comes off the best here. 

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, Runningwild said:

As soon as the Queen asked who was her favorite, I said Andrew. Not sure why I guessed him, but there it is. Frankly, most of these people are insufferable. Andrew comes off the best here. 

Interesting because it thought he came off horribly here. Self-important, pretentious, manipulative and only concerned with status. 

1 hour ago, shipmate said:

I definitely got the feeling Andrew thought the Queen/crown would be his golden ticket out of being personally involved in the Falkland Islands conflict.

I thought the same thing. 

[Ellaria]

Wow - the holidays with the Windsor kids must be a lot of fun! What an entitled, self-involved bunch.

Love watching Olivia Colman. She appears to have settled into the role in S4. (It was a bit of an uneven performance last season but that may have been due largely to the writing.) I love her “graying matron” look and the introspection that she is using to survey those around her, for better or worse.

She scolds Charles for his discourse on “straight gardens” while his pregnant wife is in bed watching cartoons. Yet, she doesn’t possess the kindness or compassion to go up and visit her either.

The family dynamics are intriguing but incredibly dysfunctional. 

Edited November 16, 2020 by Ellaria Sand

[peridot]

It's interesting that Thatcher bemoaned the emotionalism of women as why they shouldn't be elevated, but she became completely wrapped up in her son's disappearance and tried to ignore the conflict with the Argentine miners.

Her son was an idiot, but I guess it ties into her hypocritical nature - making excuses about what happened to him, calling her mom and daughter weak, and even becoming unprofessional in front of the queen.

The story about the kid drinking chilled urine was terrible, but I didn't have much sympathy for him. Was he going to the same school that Philip and Charles went to, where everyone was overly dickish?

 

[Quilt Fairy]

14 minutes ago, peridot said:

Was he going to the same school that Philip and Charles went to, where everyone was overly dickish?

Yes, Gordonstoun, way up at the far Northern tip of Scotland.  I think Anne's children went there, too, after it became co-educational. 

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

The show is not shying away from making Camila and Charles look like the horrible cheaters there were. Diana didn't have a period in her time with Charles that wasn't overshadowed by "Gladys".

Charles was easily the worst child and whom the Queen clearly couldn't abide. She worries about Annie, is curious about Edward, interested in Andrew and impatient with Charles. I think Coleman played all reactions brilliantly 

Unfortunately, Margaret Thatchers' dynamic with her son is far too common. 

Edited November 16, 2020 by Deputy Deputy CoS

[swanpride]

Mmm….I kept thinking "Whoever the favourite is, it is clear who is the least favourite of the bunch. For both parents."

[WatchrTina]

That was SUCH a strange episode.  I still don't understand what provoked the Queen into wanting to have a private chat with each child.  And did she REALLY need her secretary to prepare a briefing document on each child's life as prep for the conversation?  Had she fallen that out of touch with her own children? 

The one good thing I can say about this episode is that, since I did not recall Thatcher's son going missing in that rally, I didn't know where that particular plot line was going to go.

I DO recall what happened with the Falklands and -- at the time -- my sense was that the Brits took swift, decisive action -- flexing that "Great Britain" muscle -- and shut that shit DOWN.  But now, based on the behind-the-scenes view we've been offered via this episode, I wonder if I'm recollecting things correctly.

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

I DO recall what happened with the Falklands and -- at the time -- my sense was that the Brits took swift, decisive action -- flexing that "Great Britain" muscle -- and shut that shit DOWN.  But now, based on the behind-the-scenes view we've been offered via this episode, I wonder if I'm recollecting things correctly.

It’s probably more the show taking creative license with the timeline. Mark Thatcher went missing in January 1982 and was found well before Argentina invaded the Falklands. 

[Roseanna]

On 11/15/2020 at 2:52 PM, Brn2bwild said:

My question coming out of this one is: Anne is so obviously the best of the four children, how can she not be the favorite?

Anne was Philip's favorite because her character was similar to his and as a girl, she didn't compete with him. And she become the best of the children because of that character: unlike Charles, she didn't suffer of her parents's behavior or in the school, and she had no pressure about "duty" because she wasn't the heir. She could marry whom she liked, divorce him, remarry and, most of all, have her own hobbies (horses) and work (charities) and raise her children as non-royals without having financial troubles. Despite having similar troubles with the press like Philip, she had the best of both worlds.  

On 11/15/2020 at 7:39 PM, Runningwild said:

As soon as the Queen asked who was her favorite, I said Andrew. Not sure why I guessed him, but there it is. Frankly, most of these people are insufferable. Andrew comes off the best here. 

Elizabeth tried to raise Andrew just the opposite way than Charles. The result was the spoiled brat who took all the benefits of royalty for granted without the sense of duty.

On 11/15/2020 at 10:55 PM, swanpride said:

I think it's a little bit of both. On the one hand: Yeah, it was absolutely necessary to act decisively in the situation at hand. I usually have little patience for Britain exercising power over seas, but the Falkland were an empty island when the European arrived, hence the population there is through and through British. It was a little bit funny how the Argentinians are all "we are taking this island!!!" and the British wanderer were all "you are okay, chaps? You really should leave here", but it summons up the situation pretty well. The Argentinian Junta keeps using the Falklands as an issue to stir up nationalistic feelings, but the idea that it makes any sense for them to take over the island in the first place is completely removed from reality.

Thus said, the way the British acted during the so called war was equally ridiculous. Thatcher used it to dip into the feeling of patriotism in the country and managed to secure another term trough it, because the "we are the greatest again" feeling distracted a lot of people from the consequences of her policies. Again, the show basically nailed it when Elizabeth is pretty much surprised that the war is won and that there is now a big celebration. It was in the great scheme of things a pretty insignificant "war" against an opponent, which had neither the strength nor the will to prevail.

It just irked me how Thatcher was ready to give so much money to the war, after denying money for the decent living for ordinary people, not to speak of the soldiers who lost their lives.  

Also, I happened to be on holiday in Crete and remember well the headlines of British talbloids that seemed just ridiculous, f.ex. "They lost their lives in order we could live".  

[swanpride]

Oh, the costs were certainly an issue. But in the end, I think it is mostly Argentina who is to blame there, and maybe the US. They were a NATO partner after all, but they refused to do what they are supposed to do, defend an ally, despite their ships being way closer.

[Spartan Girl]

We all know Elizabeth’s real favorite are her corgis. LOL I kid I kid.

Parents should not have favorites. It was obvious that Mark Thatcher and Andrew being favorites turned them into spoiled entitled assholes that thought that they could do whatever they want.

On the other hand, Charles was nobody’s favorite and he had no problem being an asshole. “All we do is talk and hunt.” Suuuuuuuuuuuuure.

[vibeology]

10 hours ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

Charles was easily the worst child and whom the Queen clearly couldn't abide. She worries about Annie, is curious about Edward, interested in Andrew and impatient with Charles. I think Coleman played all reactions brilliantly 

I think that's about right in terms of the Queen's affections, but I also think it was clear that she is just awful as a parent and each of her kids are the worse for it. She sent three kids to that awful school and two were miserable and bullied and it was brand new information to her. Edward has turned into a terrible snob who uses his family to get ahead. She doesn't value Anne, can't connect with Charles and lets Andrew be awful, something that will certainly impact his development going forward. (And I don't think they dropped in the teenage Koo Stark having sex with old men mentions for no reason.) All of her kids are broken and "the worst" in their own way and she has no understanding of how to guide any of them.

[AZChristian]

9 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

That was SUCH a strange episode.  I still don't understand what provoked the Queen into wanting to have a private chat with each child.  And did she REALLY need her secretary to prepare a briefing document on each child's life as prep for the conversation?  Had she fallen that out of touch with her own children? 

Throughout this season, Charles Edwards as Martin Charteris has conveyed shock in scenes like this with a miniscule lifting of an eyebrow or shifting of the eyes.  He and Elizabeth got along so well before she became queen, and now he seems aghast at where the family's personal relationships and reactions to things have gone.  And yet . . . she has no idea that he thinks they're all a bunch of privileged peacocks.

[leighdear]

Parents didn't actually "parent" in those days, and certainly not at that social level. 

Comparing Elizabeth and Phillip's parenting back then and there to even parents in the 80's is like comparing apples to suspension bridges.  They are nowhere in the same realm.  Thus all the brouhaha about Diana being a "hands on" mum to her boys.  These days it looks almost normal, but back then in Royal society it was just NOT done, dear.  

When Chaz, orphan Anne, Andy and Eddie were coming up, royal parents saw their kids occasionally, and the retinue of nannies, butlers and minders kept them up-to-date on their kids lives.  Liz and Phil were the norm for the time & place.  

[Capricasix]

52 minutes ago, leighdear said:

Parents didn't actually "parent" in those days, and certainly not at that social level. 

Comparing Elizabeth and Phillip's parenting back then and there to even parents in the 80's is like comparing apples to suspension bridges.  They are nowhere in the same realm.  Thus all the brouhaha about Diana being a "hands on" mum to her boys.  These days it looks almost normal, but back then in Royal society it was just NOT done, dear.  

When Chaz, orphan Anne, Andy and Eddie were coming up, royal parents saw their kids occasionally, and the retinue of nannies, butlers and minders kept them up-to-date on their kids lives.  Liz and Phil were the norm for the time & place.  

I mean, look at the children on Downton Abbey, even though that took place 60 years before the current season - those kids got to see their parents for maybe an hour or so before teatime, and the nannies looked after everything else concerning child-raising. And the Crawleys were only an earl and a lady!

 

[Avaleigh]

I enjoyed this episode and liked each of Elizabeth's conversations with her children. It was sad to listen to the bullying Edward went through. 

My only complaint here was that there wasn't more of a callback to the episode Pride and Joy from season 1. They've always indicated Elizabeth was hurt that Margaret was her father's favorite and I thought it might have been interesting to have her reflect a little on that in this context now that realizes she has a favorite too.

[AZChristian]

31 minutes ago, Capricasix said:

I mean, look at the children on Downton Abbey, even though that took place 60 years before the current season - those kids got to see their parents for maybe an hour or so before teatime, and the nannies looked after everything else concerning child-raising. And the Crawleys were only an earl and a lady!

 

But - as wonderfully defended by the Dowager Countess - it was EVERY day.  LOL.

[WatchrTina]

I'm re-watching this episode and the Queen just said (when she hears that Diana isn't there to greet her due to feeling unwell), "I was lucky.  Pregnancy didn't seem to affect me."

And yet I seem to recall an entire episode of an earlier season devoted to the fact that the Queen's last pregnancy was -- and I quote -- "complicated."  She even retreated to Scotland and reduced her activities in order to safeguard that pregnancy.

So it's quite telling that Elizabeth has either blocked that bit of information from her mind or she is simply so accustomed to putting up a facade of strength and invulnerability to all and sundry that it never even crosses her mind to share with Charles the truth about her own pregnancy complications.  Which, naturally, makes Diana look inferior in comparison.  (As if to say, "Pregnancy difficulties?" <skoff>  "How common!")

[poeticlicensed]

14 hours ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

Charles was easily the worst child and whom the Queen clearly couldn't abide.

Charles - disliked by both parents. 

Anne - dad's favorite

Andrew - mom's favorite

Edward - forgotten child

The entire family is toxic and horrible. But I totally got QE getting exasperated at Charles being all hangdog. I mean you are rich as Croseus, have time to indulge your every whim, build your mansion 15 minutes from lyour girlfriend and bitch because your barely out of her teen years wife doesn't like it. Just stop. 

Her convo with Andrew has major foreshadowing. On purpose, I'm sure.

 

 

[WatchrTina]

3 minutes ago, poeticlicensed said:

Andrew - mom's favorite

I think you are right about this but she never actually said that in the episode, did she?  Phillip admitted (readily) that Anne was his favorite and then claimed he knew who Elizabeth's favorite child was but she denied having a favorite and he never actually said who he thought it was. 

[vibeology]

9 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

I think you are right about this but she never actually said that in the episode, did she?  Phillip admitted (readily) that Anne was his favorite and then claimed he knew who Elizabeth's favorite child was but she denied having a favorite and he never actually said who he thought it was. 

Phillip says it at the end. And even if he didn't, it's pretty clear. She's completely out of touch and awkward with Edward. She's cold with Anne. She gets mad a Charles because he wants his garden to have no straight lines while having a pool while Andrew "borrows" a helicopter from the Navy, tells his mom about a blue movie his girlfriend was in and demands to know what title he's getting and then implies he could kills Charles' kids and the whole time she's laughing and having the best time she's had all season. She doesn't have to say it. Her actions and her willingness to indulge Andrew for all his bullshit and crimes makes it very plain.

[swanpride]

Didn't he say it in the end? Though I guess the "your favourite child" had a questionmark behind it....

But to me it is obvious that it is Andrew. It was always Andrew.

[Minivanessa]

I loved the way this episode handled HM's relationship with her children, and yes, it's widely thought that Andrew was her favorite child.

As @vibeology noted, HM's body language and affect during each of the four lunches with the kids, told us all we needed to know, as did each child's behavior. She greeted Andrew by grabbing him with both hands and their little kiss-kiss greeting was warm. Although he'd landed on her lawn in a Navy helicopter and had pulled royal status to get the use of it. She was clearly so happy to see him.

I noted that while Edward snarked on the salmon that was served for lunch ("it's always salmon here") and had a little pout fit about it, Andrew said in passing while chowing down, "Oh, great salmon!" 

Wasn't it interesting that HM even toward the end of the episode professed not to have a favorite? When it was almost written across her forehead that it was Andrew, despite her concerns about some of his attitudes/behaviors. (Nice foreshadowing job too.)

[Roseanna]

4 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Parents should not have favorites. It was obvious that Mark Thatcher and Andrew being favorites turned them into spoiled entitled assholes that thought that they could do whatever they want.

On the other hand, Charles was nobody’s favorite and he had no problem being an asshole. “All we do is talk and hunt.” Suuuuuuuuuuuuure.

Compared Margaret Thatcher, Elizabeth has at least one point: she isn't blind to her own faults. Which are mostly due her own background and duties. She was raised by her nanny and her parents left her for months to travel abroad and she did the same.    

4 hours ago, vibeology said:

I think that's about right in terms of the Queen's affections, but I also think it was clear that she is just awful as a parent and each of her kids are the worse for it. She sent three kids to that awful school and two were miserable and bullied and it was brand new information to her. Edward has turned into a terrible snob who uses his family to get ahead. She doesn't value Anne, can't connect with Charles and lets Andrew be awful, something that will certainly impact his development going forward. (And I don't think they dropped in the teenage Koo Stark having sex with old men mentions for no reason.) All of her kids are broken and "the worst" in their own way and she has no understanding of how to guide any of them.

Elizabeth didn't send her sons to Gordontoun, Philip did. In order to compensate her higher status, she had given her husband the right to be boss at home - but that was the norm anyway.

I don't see anything to show that Elizabeth doesn't value Anne. On the contrary they seemed to have a good relationship and share common interests (horses). Elizabeth values Anne's opinions and seeks for them. The only problem is that being born 20ies, Elizabeth can't help her daughter in her marriage problems. Instead, Margaret Thatcher had a really toxic relationship with her daughter - evidently because she can value women generally and have still a mother complex.

2 hours ago, leighdear said:

Parents didn't actually "parent" in those days, and certainly not at that social level. 

Comparing Elizabeth and Phillip's parenting back then and there to even parents in the 80's is like comparing apples to suspension bridges.  They are nowhere in the same realm.  Thus all the brouhaha about Diana being a "hands on" mum to her boys.  These days it looks almost normal, but back then in Royal society it was just NOT done, dear.  

When Chaz, orphan Anne, Andy and Eddie were coming up, royal parents saw their kids occasionally, and the retinue of nannies, butlers and minders kept them up-to-date on their kids lives.  Liz and Phil were the norm for the time & place.  

 

1 hour ago, Helena Dax said:

Perhaps Elizabeth wasn't the best mother in the world, but I have the feeling that her chidren are messed up because they are in a messed up situation. I don't think you can live that kind of life and be normal. I mean royals in general, not just the British ones. Even if you are able to deal with it, like the Queen and the Queen Mother, the sense of utter entitlement is always there. 

 

1 hour ago, swanpride said:

I think that growing up rich easily leads to this sort of entitlement, no matter if the family is royal or not. I have frankly little patience for all the whining over royal duties. I have some understanding of how hard it is to get bullied when you are a child, but according to the show pretty much all of the royals lack empathy, including Charles, despite being the supposed sensible one.

I agree with all three. Elizabeth was a mother of her times and background. Being royal made matters even worse because that made them unique and therefore lonely. 

30 minutes ago, poeticlicensed said:

But I totally got QE getting exasperated at Charles being all hangdog. I mean you are rich as Croseus, have time to indulge your every whim, build your mansion 15 minutes from lyour girlfriend and bitch because your barely out of her teen years wife doesn't like it. Just stop. 

I agree. And Philip had right by saying in the end that the children are now adults and they must now deal with their own problems.

 

 

[Roseanna]

I noticed that Elizabeth met her youngest, Andrew and Edward indoors in the palace but came to see her oldest children, Charles and Anne, in their country home (the younger boys of course hadn't one) and spoke with them outside. Charles plans for gardens told that he wanted to cultivate the nature whereas Anne just enjoyed it as it was.    

In the beginning of this season, we saw Elizabeth riding in a parade. Now we saw her ride freely in the country. In S1, it was always Margaret who rode freely whereas Elizabeth was shown petting her horses and planning their breeding.

Anne was unhappy because she had got no recognition for her work (and therefore envious towards Diana) and because her marriage was failed (despite being a love match). But although she had an affair with her security person, there was a clear difference with Diana: Anne's problems were those usual ones that most people meet. And she didn't blame others for them like Charles.

 

[swanpride]

Frankly, I think Anne is the lucky one of the bunch...I mean, she was free to follow her interests, and yeah, he marriage failed, but a lot of marriages do, and the press didn't really care about her material woes since Diana and Sarah were so much more interesting. Sometimes the lack of attention is a good thing. Maybe she would have been even happier if she had been even more successful at Olympia, hence reaching fame outside of her status as a princess, but overall, she got the closest to a normal (rich) life out of the bunch.

[dubbel zout]

1 hour ago, vibeology said:

She gets mad a Charles because he wants his garden to have no straight lines while having a pool

I'm pretty sure she was teasing him.

32 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

And Philip had right by saying in the end that the children are now adults and they must now deal with their own problems.

I always feel like Philip wants it both ways. He wants a say in his kids' lives but their problems are for them alone to resolve.

[swanpride]

True...I still keep forgetting about Edward, which is a good sign in this case.

I think the whole thing with the pool and the tennis court was less about teasing Charles and more about pointing out that his dedication to a "natural garden" stops the moment his own convenience is impacted.

Not that I mind him being so obsessed with plants and the topic in general.

[vibeology]

7 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

I'm pretty sure she was teasing him.

I'm pretty sure she thought she was teasing him but it cut Charles. He wanted his mother to approve of his plan and care about his interests. It was a moment that showed just how far apart these two are.

[JudyObscure]

5 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

We all know Elizabeth’s real favorite are her corgis. LOL I kid I kid.

Ah, many a truth spoken in jest.

I'm beginning to think Charles and Diana totally deserved each other.  There's absolutely no excuse for Charles continuing to see Camilla, and whether or not they're just hunting is immaterial. If it makes your wife unhappy -- stop it! 

Equally there's no excuse for Diana doing that childish not speaking thing. How spoiled and lazy can you be to simply lose interest in decorating your nice new mansion with your unlimited funds, and, honestly, when your mother-in-law comes to visit for the first time, get out of bed, throw on a maternity dress, and go down for lunch, whether you're feeling fabulous  or not. 

I know  Diana was young, but she's not fourteen, she's a grown woman out of school for several years. I was married at nineteen, pregnant at 20 and no one thought that meant I wasn't responsible for my actions. Twenty was the average age for brides throughout the fifties and they didn't all make a profession out of pouting.  

 

[heavysnaxx]

23 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

My question coming out of this one is: Anne is so obviously the best of the four children, how can she not be the favorite?

She's not male and there are male successors who render her irrelevant. If she were in the position of either of the two Queen Elizabeths or Victoria, she'd be the favorite.

[Roseanna]

9 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

Equally there's no excuse for Diana doing that childish not speaking thing. How spoiled and lazy can you be to simply lose interest in decorating your nice new mansion with your unlimited funds, and, honestly, when your mother-in-law comes to visit for the first time, get out of bed, throw on a maternity dress, and go down for lunch, whether you're feeling fabulous  or not. 

I know  Diana was young, but she's not fourteen, she's a grown woman out of school for several years. I was married at nineteen, pregnant at 20 and no one thought that meant I wasn't responsible for my actions. Twenty was the average age for brides throughout the fifties and they didn't all make a profession out of pouting.  

Normally I would agree with that. But Diana's bulimia and anorexia weren't only physical illnesses but also mental ones. Unfortunately, there weren't much information at that time.

[swanpride]

Also, maturity isn't really a question of age. But then, we will never know how much of diana's problems were truly caused by the marriage and how many of them were already there and just made worse during the marriage. Not everyone who is in a stressful situation decides to eat and then throw up.

[Roseanna]

There was some mistake about Elizabeth and Andrew's discussion about dukes of Yorks:

Richard III who (likely) murdered his nephews to become King wasn't the duke of York but the duke of Gloucester. 

Richard's elder brother Edward, Earl of March was briefly Duke of York after his father was killed before he won the Lancastrian King Henry VI and become King Edward IV. He gave his younger son Richard the title of duke of York. Richard was (likely) murdered with his elder brother Edward V in Tower.

Because there was a Yorkist pretender who claimed himself to be Richard duke of York, Henry VII gave his younger son Henry the title of the duke of York. After his elder brother Arthur and then his father died, he became the Henry VIII.

I just came to think about it: Andrew is just like Margaret in believing that he would be a better sovereign.  

[swanpride]

And just like Margareth he is most likely wrong. If I had to pick one of the four to succeed Elizabeth, it would be Anne any day.