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S04.E04: Favourites


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So far this season has mostly managed to make me dislike the characters more and more and more….if I hear one more time how thankful the land supposedly has to be, I'll consider the writers completely delusional (which they most likely are). But this episode was pretty interesting...not that I was surprised abut the "result" of the question. I was surprised about the whole "movie about older gentlemen having sex with underage girls" thing. I didn't expect that they would even go there, I was convinced that they would try to completely sidestep the whole issue.

Is it bad that I was actually confused for a moment when they mentioned four children? I completely forgot about Edward.

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2 hours ago, swanpride said:

Is it bad that I was actually confused for a moment when they mentioned four children? I completely forgot about Edward.

Being old enough to remember the birth of the two younger children, I did remember Edward.  But - someone correct me if I'm wrong - did the script err in having Edward say he was 3rd in line to the throne while he was lunching (on poached salmon) with his mummy?  The timing of the luncheon would historically place it in 1982.  At that point, Anne had two children, and Diana had not yet given birth to Williams.

So wouldn't the order of succession at that time be:

Charles

Anne

  • Anne's son
  • Anne's daughter

Andrew

Edward

And William's birth would then bump everyone but Charles down one, and subsequent children of the queen's children could also have an impact on the succession, depending on where they fell into the lineage.

 

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12 minutes ago, Lillith said:

The boys would have superceded Anne in line for the throne. It was only recently that changed the sucession to the eldest whether male or female. 

 

You are correct.  I had forgotten about that.  Thanks. 

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My mother is obsessed with treating us all fairly too, because in her case, her brother was always the fav. The dynamic was quite similar to what was shown in the show with the Thatcher family. Like, my grandmother literally send my uncle money all the time and then my mother had to pay the heating costs for her. And yes, my uncle became an egoistic a-hole too, and yes, it was my mother who did all the caring, just like it happened in the Thatcher family.

 

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I used to think Peter Morgan was too enamored of the royal family and the queen in particular, but this season he's really pulling no punches. Now I'm wondering if he's a small-r republican. The royal family is a toxic mess and they really embody the phrase "hurt people hurt people." And they just keep repeating the cycle

Sometimes I am not sure if we are actually meant to empathize with them or meant to think "what a bunch of shit heads", but there is at least some level of honesty intermixed in it.

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Andrew was my favorite, because he was so damn gorgeous. Yeah, he was slimy and a creep.  But hot.  And funny how he slipped in the name "Koo", for Koo Stark, his infamous girlfriend.  She was beautiful back then and is still attractive these days. 

They really are showing the worst sides of all these folks.  But Helena as Margot just delights me every time she's on screen.  

I do like all the actual news footage they've been using.  It definitely brings the reality level up and brings home how these crisis affected the average folks.   

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21 minutes ago, swanpride said:

Though I look forward to the moment when the quality of the footage gets better. Man, how the hell did we watch any of this stuff in this awful quality back then?

I don't remember it being this poor quality -- I think some of it could be due to the age of the footage?

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4 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

My question coming out of this one is: Anne is so obviously the best of the four children, how can she not be the favorite?

As soon as the Queen asked who was her favorite, I said Andrew. Not sure why I guessed him, but there it is. Frankly, most of these people are insufferable. Andrew comes off the best here. 

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15 minutes ago, Runningwild said:

As soon as the Queen asked who was her favorite, I said Andrew. Not sure why I guessed him, but there it is. Frankly, most of these people are insufferable. Andrew comes off the best here. 

Interesting because it thought he came off horribly here. Self-important, pretentious, manipulative and only concerned with status. 

1 hour ago, shipmate said:

I definitely got the feeling Andrew thought the Queen/crown would be his golden ticket out of being personally involved in the Falkland Islands conflict.

I thought the same thing. 

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It's interesting that Thatcher bemoaned the emotionalism of women as why they shouldn't be elevated, but she became completely wrapped up in her son's disappearance and tried to ignore the conflict with the Argentine miners.

Her son was an idiot, but I guess it ties into her hypocritical nature - making excuses about what happened to him, calling her mom and daughter weak, and even becoming unprofessional in front of the queen.

The story about the kid drinking chilled urine was terrible, but I didn't have much sympathy for him. Was he going to the same school that Philip and Charles went to, where everyone was overly dickish?

 

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14 minutes ago, peridot said:

Was he going to the same school that Philip and Charles went to, where everyone was overly dickish?

Yes, Gordonstoun, way up at the far Northern tip of Scotland.  I think Anne's children went there, too, after it became co-educational. 

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That was SUCH a strange episode.  I still don't understand what provoked the Queen into wanting to have a private chat with each child.  And did she REALLY need her secretary to prepare a briefing document on each child's life as prep for the conversation?  Had she fallen that out of touch with her own children? 

The one good thing I can say about this episode is that, since I did not recall Thatcher's son going missing in that rally, I didn't know where that particular plot line was going to go.

I DO recall what happened with the Falklands and -- at the time -- my sense was that the Brits took swift, decisive action -- flexing that "Great Britain" muscle -- and shut that shit DOWN.  But now, based on the behind-the-scenes view we've been offered via this episode, I wonder if I'm recollecting things correctly.

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29 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

I DO recall what happened with the Falklands and -- at the time -- my sense was that the Brits took swift, decisive action -- flexing that "Great Britain" muscle -- and shut that shit DOWN.  But now, based on the behind-the-scenes view we've been offered via this episode, I wonder if I'm recollecting things correctly.

It’s probably more the show taking creative license with the timeline. Mark Thatcher went missing in January 1982 and was found well before Argentina invaded the Falklands. 

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Oh, the costs were certainly an issue. But in the end, I think it is mostly Argentina who is to blame there, and maybe the US. They were a NATO partner after all, but they refused to do what they are supposed to do, defend an ally, despite their ships being way closer.

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9 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

That was SUCH a strange episode.  I still don't understand what provoked the Queen into wanting to have a private chat with each child.  And did she REALLY need her secretary to prepare a briefing document on each child's life as prep for the conversation?  Had she fallen that out of touch with her own children? 

Throughout this season, Charles Edwards as Martin Charteris has conveyed shock in scenes like this with a miniscule lifting of an eyebrow or shifting of the eyes.  He and Elizabeth got along so well before she became queen, and now he seems aghast at where the family's personal relationships and reactions to things have gone.  And yet . . . she has no idea that he thinks they're all a bunch of privileged peacocks.

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52 minutes ago, leighdear said:

Parents didn't actually "parent" in those days, and certainly not at that social level. 

Comparing Elizabeth and Phillip's parenting back then and there to even parents in the 80's is like comparing apples to suspension bridges.  They are nowhere in the same realm.  Thus all the brouhaha about Diana being a "hands on" mum to her boys.  These days it looks almost normal, but back then in Royal society it was just NOT done, dear.  

When Chaz, orphan Anne, Andy and Eddie were coming up, royal parents saw their kids occasionally, and the retinue of nannies, butlers and minders kept them up-to-date on their kids lives.  Liz and Phil were the norm for the time & place.  

I mean, look at the children on Downton Abbey, even though that took place 60 years before the current season - those kids got to see their parents for maybe an hour or so before teatime, and the nannies looked after everything else concerning child-raising. And the Crawleys were only an earl and a lady!

 

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31 minutes ago, Capricasix said:

I mean, look at the children on Downton Abbey, even though that took place 60 years before the current season - those kids got to see their parents for maybe an hour or so before teatime, and the nannies looked after everything else concerning child-raising. And the Crawleys were only an earl and a lady!

 

But - as wonderfully defended by the Dowager Countess - it was EVERY day.  LOL.

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I'm re-watching this episode and the Queen just said (when she hears that Diana isn't there to greet her due to feeling unwell), "I was lucky.  Pregnancy didn't seem to affect me."

And yet I seem to recall an entire episode of an earlier season devoted to the fact that the Queen's last pregnancy was -- and I quote -- "complicated."  She even retreated to Scotland and reduced her activities in order to safeguard that pregnancy.

So it's quite telling that Elizabeth has either blocked that bit of information from her mind or she is simply so accustomed to putting up a facade of strength and invulnerability to all and sundry that it never even crosses her mind to share with Charles the truth about her own pregnancy complications.  Which, naturally, makes Diana look inferior in comparison.  (As if to say, "Pregnancy difficulties?" <skoff>  "How common!")

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3 minutes ago, poeticlicensed said:

Andrew - mom's favorite

I think you are right about this but she never actually said that in the episode, did she?  Phillip admitted (readily) that Anne was his favorite and then claimed he knew who Elizabeth's favorite child was but she denied having a favorite and he never actually said who he thought it was. 

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I loved the way this episode handled HM's relationship with her children, and yes, it's widely thought that Andrew was her favorite child.

As @vibeology noted, HM's body language and affect during each of the four lunches with the kids, told us all we needed to know, as did each child's behavior. She greeted Andrew by grabbing him with both hands and their little kiss-kiss greeting was warm. Although he'd landed on her lawn in a Navy helicopter and had pulled royal status to get the use of it. She was clearly so happy to see him.

I noted that while Edward snarked on the salmon that was served for lunch ("it's always salmon here") and had a little pout fit about it, Andrew said in passing while chowing down, "Oh, great salmon!" 

Wasn't it interesting that HM even toward the end of the episode professed not to have a favorite? When it was almost written across her forehead that it was Andrew, despite her concerns about some of his attitudes/behaviors. (Nice foreshadowing job too.)

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4 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Parents should not have favorites. It was obvious that Mark Thatcher and Andrew being favorites turned them into spoiled entitled assholes that thought that they could do whatever they want.

On the other hand, Charles was nobody’s favorite and he had no problem being an asshole. “All we do is talk and hunt.” Suuuuuuuuuuuuure.

Compared Margaret Thatcher, Elizabeth has at least one point: she isn't blind to her own faults. Which are mostly due her own background and duties. She was raised by her nanny and her parents left her for months to travel abroad and she did the same.    

4 hours ago, vibeology said:

I think that's about right in terms of the Queen's affections, but I also think it was clear that she is just awful as a parent and each of her kids are the worse for it. She sent three kids to that awful school and two were miserable and bullied and it was brand new information to her. Edward has turned into a terrible snob who uses his family to get ahead. She doesn't value Anne, can't connect with Charles and lets Andrew be awful, something that will certainly impact his development going forward. (And I don't think they dropped in the teenage Koo Stark having sex with old men mentions for no reason.) All of her kids are broken and "the worst" in their own way and she has no understanding of how to guide any of them.

Elizabeth didn't send her sons to Gordontoun, Philip did. In order to compensate her higher status, she had given her husband the right to be boss at home - but that was the norm anyway.

I don't see anything to show that Elizabeth doesn't value Anne. On the contrary they seemed to have a good relationship and share common interests (horses). Elizabeth values Anne's opinions and seeks for them. The only problem is that being born 20ies, Elizabeth can't help her daughter in her marriage problems. Instead, Margaret Thatcher had a really toxic relationship with her daughter - evidently because she can value women generally and have still a mother complex.

2 hours ago, leighdear said:

Parents didn't actually "parent" in those days, and certainly not at that social level. 

Comparing Elizabeth and Phillip's parenting back then and there to even parents in the 80's is like comparing apples to suspension bridges.  They are nowhere in the same realm.  Thus all the brouhaha about Diana being a "hands on" mum to her boys.  These days it looks almost normal, but back then in Royal society it was just NOT done, dear.  

When Chaz, orphan Anne, Andy and Eddie were coming up, royal parents saw their kids occasionally, and the retinue of nannies, butlers and minders kept them up-to-date on their kids lives.  Liz and Phil were the norm for the time & place.  

 

1 hour ago, Helena Dax said:

Perhaps Elizabeth wasn't the best mother in the world, but I have the feeling that her chidren are messed up because they are in a messed up situation. I don't think you can live that kind of life and be normal. I mean royals in general, not just the British ones. Even if you are able to deal with it, like the Queen and the Queen Mother, the sense of utter entitlement is always there. 

 

1 hour ago, swanpride said:

I think that growing up rich easily leads to this sort of entitlement, no matter if the family is royal or not. I have frankly little patience for all the whining over royal duties. I have some understanding of how hard it is to get bullied when you are a child, but according to the show pretty much all of the royals lack empathy, including Charles, despite being the supposed sensible one.

I agree with all three. Elizabeth was a mother of her times and background. Being royal made matters even worse because that made them unique and therefore lonely. 

30 minutes ago, poeticlicensed said:

But I totally got QE getting exasperated at Charles being all hangdog. I mean you are rich as Croseus, have time to indulge your every whim, build your mansion 15 minutes from lyour girlfriend and bitch because your barely out of her teen years wife doesn't like it. Just stop. 

I agree. And Philip had right by saying in the end that the children are now adults and they must now deal with their own problems.

 

 

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I noticed that Elizabeth met her youngest, Andrew and Edward indoors in the palace but came to see her oldest children, Charles and Anne, in their country home (the younger boys of course hadn't one) and spoke with them outside. Charles plans for gardens told that he wanted to cultivate the nature whereas Anne just enjoyed it as it was.    

In the beginning of this season, we saw Elizabeth riding in a parade. Now we saw her ride freely in the country. In S1, it was always Margaret who rode freely whereas Elizabeth was shown petting her horses and planning their breeding.

Anne was unhappy because she had got no recognition for her work (and therefore envious towards Diana) and because her marriage was failed (despite being a love match). But although she had an affair with her security person, there was a clear difference with Diana: Anne's problems were those usual ones that most people meet. And she didn't blame others for them like Charles.

 

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Frankly, I think Anne is the lucky one of the bunch...I mean, she was free to follow her interests, and yeah, he marriage failed, but a lot of marriages do, and the press didn't really care about her material woes since Diana and Sarah were so much more interesting. Sometimes the lack of attention is a good thing. Maybe she would have been even happier if she had been even more successful at Olympia, hence reaching fame outside of her status as a princess, but overall, she got the closest to a normal (rich) life out of the bunch.

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1 hour ago, vibeology said:

She gets mad a Charles because he wants his garden to have no straight lines while having a pool

I'm pretty sure she was teasing him.

32 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

And Philip had right by saying in the end that the children are now adults and they must now deal with their own problems.

I always feel like Philip wants it both ways. He wants a say in his kids' lives but their problems are for them alone to resolve.

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True...I still keep forgetting about Edward, which is a good sign in this case.

I think the whole thing with the pool and the tennis court was less about teasing Charles and more about pointing out that his dedication to a "natural garden" stops the moment his own convenience is impacted.

Not that I mind him being so obsessed with plants and the topic in general.

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7 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

I'm pretty sure she was teasing him.

I'm pretty sure she thought she was teasing him but it cut Charles. He wanted his mother to approve of his plan and care about his interests. It was a moment that showed just how far apart these two are.

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23 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

My question coming out of this one is: Anne is so obviously the best of the four children, how can she not be the favorite?

She's not male and there are male successors who render her irrelevant. If she were in the position of either of the two Queen Elizabeths or Victoria, she'd be the favorite.

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Also, maturity isn't really a question of age. But then, we will never know how much of diana's problems were truly caused by the marriage and how many of them were already there and just made worse during the marriage. Not everyone who is in a stressful situation decides to eat and then throw up.

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There was some mistake about Elizabeth and Andrew's discussion about dukes of Yorks:

Richard III who (likely) murdered his nephews to become King wasn't the duke of York but the duke of Gloucester. 

Richard's elder brother Edward, Earl of March was briefly Duke of York after his father was killed before he won the Lancastrian King Henry VI and become King Edward IV. He gave his younger son Richard the title of duke of York. Richard was (likely) murdered with his elder brother Edward V in Tower.

Because there was a Yorkist pretender who claimed himself to be Richard duke of York, Henry VII gave his younger son Henry the title of the duke of York. After his elder brother Arthur and then his father died, he became the Henry VIII.

I just came to think about it: Andrew is just like Margaret in believing that he would be a better sovereign.  

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