S15.E18: Despair

[Terese]

52 minutes ago, ukgirl71 said:

Do you know, they have ALL disappointed me with their apparent acquiescence to the deconstruction of characters they have created, and presumably loved, for more than a decade.  Maybe I’m too bolshie, but I would have fought the bit out for “my” character.

I feel the exact same way. They all disappoint and copped out. I just finished a rewatch of the season 2 finale. I am watching this great story with absolute engagement and completely unaware of acting. (I have to watch the real Supernatural throughout this terrible season.) They do things, and make plans, ask questions, interesting and informative dialogue, heartfelt emotions without all the cheesy melodrama and they never repeat themselves. I really like them! These guys in tonight's episode...who are they?

[Terese]

56 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

In the end, unless an actor is also an EP and has super-creative control over the writing - say Mark Harmon on SPN - they can throw tantrums till the cows come home but if the writer really wants it, the actor will shut up and do it. Any other expectations belong in the realm of fantasy. I've heard so many stories from actors, leads of their shows, on how they fought for xy and got overruled.

The power of an actor lies in contract renegotiations. Or they can go above the showrunners to the network/studio (if they have connections) and gain a reputation for being divas and get punished even more by the showrunners.

The CW is full of some of the worst stories of showrunners abusing actors via their characters and noone stepped in.

But, how is this any different from any other work place? People resign all the time from situations that compromise the product and their own integrity. They quit, broke their contracts, returned the money, went to court if needs be. They need to step in for themselves or step out. They are not children; no one needs to step in for them, but them. 

[Aeryn13]

18 minutes ago, Terese said:

But, how is this any different from any other work place? People resign all the time from situations that compromise the product and their own integrity. They quit, broke their contracts, returned the money, went to court if needs be. They need to step in for themselves or step out. They are not children; no one needs to step in for them, but them. 

They penalties for contract breaking by an actor are pretty high. That would cost them several millions, not just their salary.

I do agree on how they shouldn't have signed on anymore the last time. But alas, that would have also put many people out of jobs.

I'm judging the writers here the most. Noone forced them to do a terrible product.

[PAForrest]

I'll go back and read everyone's reviews in a minute. I would have come on here last night, but I was too busy texting and DM'ing and having an actual phone call about the episode to have time to go anywhere else. LOL! Plus I had to digest a little.

Foremost, I'll point out that I'm going to have to go to the CW site to rewatch this episode because my damn CW station - which never ever does this - ran an f'ing electoral college count graph at the bottom of the screen for 45 minutes of the episode, which made it impossible for me to pay attention or even look at the screen. Trust me, I've been stressed enough for days that I need a break from whether or not we're going to become a full blown fascist dictatorship or be saved at the 11th hour. I need distraction, not a reminder that we're living in hell!

At the 45 minute mark the station had either received a lot of complaints from viewers, or they realized they were supposed to turn it off during their primetime shows and forgot, or a combo of both. Either way, it ruined almost everything and I actually missed stuff, even in what was too often a mostly plodding boring episode.

UNTIL, of course, THAT scene between Cas and Dean, and how ironic the scroll was finally pulled just as that scene started to play out. And you'll notice I'm back to calling him Cas and not Asstiel because he finally redeemed himself for the last 3 years of not caring about anyone or anything else except Jack - who turned out to be a giant mcguffin. And that's fine, Jackie Sue should never have been the hero of a show that is not his to own. I'm just pissed that Dabb and Berens commanded so much time be devoted to their little Princess mcguffin when Dean and Sam and a decent season-long plot should have been their primary concern, especially in a final season.

Gotta be honest and admit even under the best of circumstances, and in a time when I actually legitimately cared about the ship, I never expected such a blatant declaration of love - and coming from Cas no less. And it worked for me, despite myself, precisely because it came from him, as it should have, especially after his neglect and treatment of Dean, and Sam, over the last 3 years. Even before the Mary debacle, I had cooled on the ship because it had become so one-sided with Cas not caring at all, and Dean caring too much. So Cas finally coming right out and stating what everyone in this universe has known since he was introduced was the way it always should have been.

But even more jaw-dropping than that was Castiel's effusive praise of Dean, for how loving and important and special a person his fans have always known him to be - and coming from this particular writer, no less. That shocked me more than the "I love you." I never would have expected those lines to be written by Berens.

There too was Death's specific tie to Dean as well - also unexpected, but that should not have been considering Dean's special bond with Original Flavor Death. So many very unexpected plot points related to Dean that surprised the hell out of me.

I'm fine with Dean not saying anything back to Cas - I'm not sure we're supposed to think Dean feels exactly the same or was more stunned, or both. But as several other Dean fans pointed out on twitter, Dean isn't the guy who says "I love you" to anyone, even if especially Sam. He's the guy who shows it, proves it, day after day, minute by minute, in everything he does and sacrifices for everyone else - in the way he has always put everyone else before himself. We know he loves Cas - whether he loves him in a romantic sense doesn't even matter. The fans can choose to decide how to interpret Dean's obvious years-long affection for Cas. But as Cas himself said, Dean is the most loving human being in the world.

As for the rip-off of Infinity War, honestly the only thing that struck me about that was how it was almost as if they anticipated COVID back when they were writing the episode. It's frankly the perfect set-up for COVID restrictions. Irony of ironies.

I'm sure I'll have more to say later.

Edited November 6, 2020 by PAForrest

[bettername2come]

9 hours ago, shoetingstar said:

Also, DONNA! You Bastards!

That literally made me yell “Nooo!” at the screen. It gave me Infinity War flashbacks.

I liked it. I feel like they packed a lot into it. I kept looking at the clock thinking we were closer to the end than we were.

Dean looked gorgeous tonight, especially when holding the scythe. Like his hair looked really nice, better than normal. The scene with Cas was really powerful and highlighted Dean’s goodness in a way I hadn’t fully considered.

[Terese]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

They penalties for contract breaking by an actor are pretty high. That would cost them several millions, not just their salary.

I do agree on how they shouldn't have signed on anymore the last time. But alas, that would have also put many people out of jobs.

I'm judging the writers here the most. Noone forced them to do a terrible product.

True. I suppose in a fairer world, with a lot more honor, such things would never happen.

[catrox14]

8 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Hey!  Speight actually did some directing, not just copying someone else's style (excuse me, "paying homage") to distract viewers from what was actually happening in the scene. 

   I got a heavy "homage" to Marvel's Infinity War. I think Dean is Tony Stark here in a way.  I also thought Castiel's speech was an "homage" to Stuck in the Middle which Speight also directed

As the previous low-key Destiel shipper here, I didn't necessarily read that scene as Canon Destiel. I saw it as much more Castiel, the angel , realizing he did love Dean in a specific way, that was different than his love for humanity, or Sam or Jack, maybe romantic, not necessarily sexual. I also think that he also realized fully that Dean did and does love him, as Dean showed throughout their complex relationship. 

The rest of the episode made no sense. My only theory is Jack is responsible for everyone disappearing in some way. Maybe he sent everyone to a void and none are dead.

I continue to find Speight's directing mediocre.

Overall,  nonplussed about this episode.

 

[Gbb]

Well that was a hot mess. If I got to choose the most poorly written, poorly characterized episode of SPN ever, this would win, hands down. Sam and Dean rarely had anything to say beyond "what do we do?" or "I don't know what to do!" They stood around paralyzed with inertia for the most part. Sure Dean went to try to kill Death and Sam went to gather the AU hunters, but once those plans began to fail, they were essentially paralyzed. That's not Sam and Dean and it's NOT how I want to see them go out. I'm certain things will change next week and they'll figure out a plan, but with barely 3 hours left to have them spend most of an hour in a stupor giving up was excruciating -- and not in the good way as in earlier seasons where the writing over the course of the season has built tension to a crescendo and the dark moment feels real and devastating and earned. This just felt... tired. They both seemed to be going through the motions and honestly past ready to give up.

On top of that, I have never seen such an egregious example of "show don't tell" in my life. The first half of the episode was constant exposition. STOP RECAPPING THE SITUATION AND DO SOMETHING!

The Cas scene could/should have been wonderful and emotional in a better writer's hands. It was clumsy, ham-handed, overwrought and completely out of the blue and unearned given Cas and Dean's relationship since Jack came around.

I'm not deep enough in the fandom to keep up with which writers write what, who does or doesn't like which characters and who has a better handle on show/character history, but this a stinking pile if there ever was one.

Edited November 6, 2020 by Gbb

[bethy]

Out of curiosity, did Castiel apologize for how he’d been acting and treating Dean? 

[Myrelle]

4 minutes ago, bethy said:

Out of curiosity, did Castiel apologize for how he’d been acting and treating Dean? 

Of course not.

[ahrtee]

7 minutes ago, bethy said:

Out of curiosity, did Castiel apologize for how he’d been acting and treating Dean? 

Love means never having to say you're sorry.  😀

 

[bethy]

Thanks, @Myrelle. I was afraid of that. For me, as great as it sounds that Cas acknowledged Dean’s value and goodness, without an acknowledgement of his own failure, it’s lacking something.

1 minute ago, ahrtee said:

Love means never having to say you're sorry.  😀

 

🤢 One of the biggest lies perpetrated on a generation. 😀

[Myrelle]

3 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Love means never having to say you're sorry.  😀

 

Unless you're Dean.

 

3 minutes ago, bethy said:

Thanks, @Myrelle. I was afraid of that. For me, as great as it sounds that Cas acknowledged Dean’s value and goodness, without an acknowledgement of his own failure, it’s lacking something

I hear you and agree, but there was no way I could have ever hoped for or expected an apology to Dean from any of the other characters this season, but neither did I expect any of the praise from any of them that we got out of Cas in this one and it was all pretty detailed and specific and spot on and I'm  thinking that no one on this show has ever before actually said all of those things, in quite that way, and all at once. 

THAT was the pleasantly surprising and most stunning part of the episode(and the entire season, tbh) for this fan.

So considering who wrote this one and always keeping the low bar that the writers have set this season in mind, it was enough for me.

And Dean being kept in character during the entirety of that scene helped a lot also.

I've pretty much written off everything else about the story board, but still hoping for silver linings here and there if and when I can get them in these last few episodes.

And I'm really hoping that last week was the bottom of the barrel(because it felt like it to me), but there's still 2 more to go.

I never in a million years thought I would be feeling this much not-fun-dread as this show winds down to it's ending.

 

 

[Binns]

I’ve not watched the new episodes yet because I’ve been dreading them so I’ve been sort of spoiling myself instead. Not completely, but the big things. Like I want to know if the boys aren’t together at the end to prepare myself (dead or alive). But I wonder if this Castiel love thing is what was bugging Jensen? I don’t know if it’s the kind of love that people were shipping...maybe more of an agape thing than romantic. But Jensen has always been very anti-Destiel. 

[Frost]

1 minute ago, Binns said:

I’ve not watched the new episodes yet because I’ve been dreading them so I’ve been sort of spoiling myself instead. Not completely, but the big things. Like I want to know if the boys aren’t together at the end to prepare myself (dead or alive). But I wonder if this Castiel love thing is what was bugging Jensen? I don’t know if it’s the kind of love that people were shipping...maybe more of an agape thing than romantic. But Jensen has always been very anti-Destiel. 

I didn't get a romantic or sexual love vibe from Castiel's speech to Dean.  It read of admiration, respect, and a deep love of Dean's true being - his soul.  Like looking into the eyes of a baby - your heart could just explode with love, and there's nothing romantic or sexual about it, just a love that encompasses your entire being.  That's how it came across to me. 

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, bethy said:

Out of curiosity, did Castiel apologize for how he’d been acting and treating Dean? 

 

1 hour ago, Myrelle said:

Of course not.

 

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

Love means never having to say you're sorry.  😀

 

No. And also no opportunity to be taken to task for the deal either. Plot armour a mile thick. 

[Smad]

23 minutes ago, Binns said:

I don’t know if it’s the kind of love that people were shipping...maybe more of an agape thing than romantic.

Most of those who ship it do it in a romantic way. I don't get it. And I'm tired that it's impossible for 2 men to be brothers, family, friends, brothers-in-arms, comrades or colleagues without being shipped as gay like there is no tomorrow. It's in everything from movies to books to tv shows. Even older fandoms.

Dean has been 100% straight during the entirety of the show. Case closed.

Castiel, despite being an angel and therefore he should not have a sexual orientation, has always been shown to be interested in, smooching with or having sex with females (or coded female when it comes to demons/angels). Case closed.

To me the relationship used to be special (before Cas became pointless which was long before he was brainwashed by Nougat) in the sense that Dean and Cas were the true meaning of 'family doesn't end in blood'. That is so much more special, and a much bigger bond, than some dumb romantic connections.

[The Companion]

47 minutes ago, Frost said:

I didn't get a romantic or sexual love vibe from Castiel's speech to Dean.  It read of admiration, respect, and a deep love of Dean's true being - his soul.  Like looking into the eyes of a baby - your heart could just explode with love, and there's nothing romantic or sexual about it, just a love that encompasses your entire being.  That's how it came across to me. 

He starts the speech talking about wanting what he can't have. I don't see how you can read that as anything other than romantic. He says: "I never found an answer because the one thing I want is something I know I can’t have." 

Dean has expressed love for Castiel in a non-romantic way multiple times. He's family or his brother. I don't see how you can interpret the speech as wanting platonic love. 

[ahrtee]

4 minutes ago, The Companion said:

He starts the speech talking about wanting what he can't have. I don't see how you can read that as anything other than romantic. He says: "I never found an answer because the one thing I want is something I know I can’t have." 

Dean has expressed love for Castiel in a non-romantic way multiple times. He's family or his brother. I don't see how you can interpret the speech as wanting platonic love. 

Everything comes down to definitions, especially "platonic".  IA that Berens was pandering to the Destiel crowd by having Cas declare "love" (knowing that Dean won't reciprocate in any way a human can), but remember that angels view things differently.  They're multidimensional beings of energy, and physical bodies aren't important.  So in theory, Cas could want just what Amara did--to merge with Dean for eternity (in a deeper, non-physical way) and he knows that humans can't do that--or at least, knows that Dean won't give up his autonomy and lose himself in another being.  It's sharing on a much different, much deeper level than humans can process.  So yes, Cas knows he can't have that, no matter how much he wants it.  

[S Cook Productions]

1 hour ago, Frost said:

I didn't get a romantic or sexual love vibe from Castiel's speech to Dean.  It read of admiration, respect, and a deep love of Dean's true being - his soul.  Like looking into the eyes of a baby - your heart could just explode with love, and there's nothing romantic or sexual about it, just a love that encompasses your entire being.  That's how it came across to me. 

That’s exactly how it came across to me and my friends and family too (even a gay friend)....but that’s certainly not how tumblr is seeing it!

[Bobcatkitten]

To me it was absolutely meant as a romantic declaration of love - as others have mentioned he specifically said he wanted something he can't have. Because he knows Dean doesn't love him that way specifically. That's why Dean didn't respond (also because there was no time). And I'm not shipper at all. 

[ahrtee]

From Tippi:

Quote

“It’s something I know I can’t have because I didn’t choose a vessel with boobies.”

So couldn't Cas just switch vessels and then Dean would be fine?  Or would it just be too awkward after all this time?  😐

 

[Aeryn13]

While it is always nice to hear someone tell Dean he is a good person, in light of especially the last few years this super-emotional shipper scene came totally out of left field. This would have made a lot more sense in Season 4, 5, 6 or even 8, 9 or 10. 11 is already iffy. 

But NOW? "Hey Dean, those last few years, I didn't really seem to give much of a shit about you and was worshipping the ground Jack walked on? That was because I always kinda wanted to diddle you."

What?

No wonder Dean looked confused as fuck.

Also this "moment of perfect happiness" (I hope Joss Whedon gets some money for that) was a freaking confession? Even Angel got to go to final base for that. 

The funniest thing was probably Billie dying essentially because she left her scythe behind. Imagine just randomely leaving the one weapon that can end you in places. I can't even put it on her, though, because the cooler original Death also stupidly died because he handed his weapon over to Dean and stood in striking distance like an idiot. OMG. Why is even Death stupid on this show?

[ahrtee]

2 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Why is even Death stupid on this show?

Because he/she's written by stupid writers.

[ahrtee]

Sorry....I keep answering rhetorical questions. 😊

[gonzosgirrl]

33 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Because he/she's written by stupid writers.

Remember when OG Death brushed shoulders with someone and they dropped dead? That was a thing that happened. 

[BabySpinach]

I think "receiving this declaration from his best friend" is very telling. If it were a platonic declaration, Dean wouldn't be shocked and Cas' best friend status wouldn't need mentioning. The "Dean can't reciprocate" speaks volumes as well. I don't think it's just because he's straight and therefore can't find Cas' human vessel attractive, but because he just doesn't think of Cas romantically (or he's in shock, or it's the joy that he can't reciprocate, who the hell knows). "Speaking his truth" also seems a bit more impactful than some bro-friendly affirmation of what they have already said to each other (in different words) in the past.

We sure as hell don't have to like it or think it was well-founded or earned, but no way there were zero romantic implications in this scene, especially in addition to the whole "Cas wanting what he can't have" nugget.

Edited November 6, 2020 by BabySpinach

[ahrtee]

5 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

I think "receiving this declaration from his best friend" is very telling. If it were a platonic declaration, Dean wouldn't be shocked and Cas' best friend status wouldn't need mentioning. The "Dean can't reciprocate" speaks volumes as well. I don't think it's just because he's straight and therefore can't find Cas' human vessel attractive, but because he just doesn't think of Cas romantically. "Speaking his truth" also seems a bit more impactful than some bro-friendly affirmation of what they have already said to each other (in different words) in the past.

We sure as hell don't have to like it or think it was well-founded or earned, but no way there were zero romantic implications in this scene, especially in addition to the whole "Cas wanting what he can't have" nugget.

Oh, IA completely that the writing meant to indicate something deeper than "best friend" or even brother, and Berens knew damn well how people would take it.  The definition of platonic is actually:  an intimate, close friendship without sex.  It doesn't mean no attraction or no deeper emotional feelings.  But human straight males as stereotyped on TV and in movies, seems that the only version of "intimate" with friends they can accept is sexual.  (I think the traditional male hierarchy of "friends" is: coworkers/neighbors, poker buddies, drinking buddies (where you can complain/brag about your actual sexual relationships), then sex.  Nothing in between.)  There doesn't seem to be any room for "romantic" without sex, which is why Dean was stunned (so to speak) by Cas's very emotional declaration of love.    I'm pretty sure that Cas didn't mean sexual love (as I said before, it's not a big priority with angels); but it's pretty obvious that Dean took it that way, which was deliberate by the writer, to give the viewers something to talk about/argue over.  

[Castiels Cat]

5 hours ago, catrox14 said:

   I got a heavy "homage" to Marvel's Infinity War. I think Dean is Tony Stark here in a way.  I also thought Castiel's speech was an "homage" to Stuck in the Middle which Speight also directed

As the previous low-key Destiel shipper here, I didn't necessarily read that scene as Canon Destiel. I saw it as much more Castiel, the angel , realizing he did love Dean in a specific way, that was different than his love for humanity, or Sam or Jack, maybe romantic, not necessarily sexual. I also think that he also realized fully that Dean did and does love him, as Dean showed throughout their complex relationship. 

The rest of the episode made no sense. My only theory is Jack is responsible for everyone disappearing in some way. Maybe he sent everyone to a void and none are dead.

I continue to find Speight's directing mediocre.

Overall,  nonplussed about this episode.

 

There is something going on with Jack.

That rando removing of people at first???

[tennisgurl]

Oh my God you guys I am actually laughing. This show fucking suuuuuuuuuuuuucks. 

[The Companion]

13 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Oh, IA completely that the writing meant to indicate something deeper than "best friend" or even brother, and Berens knew damn well how people would take it.  The definition of platonic is actually:  an intimate, close friendship without sex.  It doesn't mean no attraction or no deeper emotional feelings.  But human straight males as stereotyped on TV and in movies, seems that the only version of "intimate" with friends they can accept is sexual.  (I think the traditional male hierarchy of "friends" is: coworkers/neighbors, poker buddies, drinking buddies (where you can complain/brag about your actual sexual relationships), then sex.  Nothing in between.)  There doesn't seem to be any room for "romantic" without sex, which is why Dean was stunned (so to speak) by Cas's very emotional declaration of love.    I'm pretty sure that Cas didn't mean sexual love (as I said before, it's not a big priority with angels); but it's pretty obvious that Dean took it that way, which was deliberate by the writer, to give the viewers something to talk about/argue over.  

The point is that he has an intimate, close relationship without sex already. Dean calls him family. What he wants is something more. I don't actually think that has to be sexual, but I don't think it necessarily isn't either. However, I think it has to be romantic. Something beyond brother/family. By virtue of the words themselves. Sorry, I don't see this as ambiguous. 

Now, was it earned? Was it well done? Should it have happened. Those are all firmly matters of opinion. But I do think it is a romantic declaration. With some desired intimacy beyond what the currently have. Otherwise, not having what he truly wants makes no sense. 

[Smad]

49 minutes ago, The Companion said:

Sorry, I don't see this as ambiguous.

And that's fine. My problem is that this show has gone out of it's way to never have Castiel show interest in what is male coded. Like I said, angels aren't humans so sexual orientation shouldn't exist for them and they should be beyond the sex of their partner. But Cas' interests have always been female coded. I assume that's because they wanted to avoid the Destiel stuff but therein lies the problem. You can't just change on a dime 10 years after the character's introduction.

That's why this ship never existed for me. Had they shown either guy interested romantically in anything other then women, you'd have room to argue. Instead this whole declaration of love came out of nowhere.

[ukgirl71]

My interpretation, now that I’ve just finished watching the whole episode:  Cas, realising death is coming via Billie, acknowledges that the one thing he felt he couldn’t have was a happy, peaceful life with his family, but has an epiphany - he had that family, he loved that family, and therefore he’s happy at that, albeit retrospective, thought.  He didn’t realise what he had til he had to give up his life to protect them.  Just my thoughts.

[ahrtee]

I actually agree with most of the comments by everyone here.  IA that Cas wanted a deeper relationship with Dean, more intimate than just family, and he was sad since he knew he couldn't get it.   What I'm saying is that I don't think it's necessarily (or even ambiguously) physical.  As @Smad said, sexual orientations shouldn't exist for angels, since they can change genders (and preferences) with different vessels.  And I'm guessing that, if Cas really wanted a sexual relationship with Dean (and assuming that Dean also wanted to get closer) then Cas could have changed vessels years ago.  Imagine if, back in season 5 or 6, he'd been resurrected in a new vessel, as a beautiful woman.   It might be awkward at first, but after Dean recognized that he was really the same person underneath, their entire relationship would have grown in a totally different direction.  

But I'm assuming that Cas picked up his "coding" (or preferences) from Dean (and/or Jimmy), since he pretty much learned all he knows about being human from them; and that's why his interests have so far been for females, without even a hint of physical desire for men.  I do think that the show wanted to throw a bone to the Destiel group, and left Cas's declaration to be open to whatever interpretation people want.  

Personally,  I do believe that Cas wanted something more, something *deeper* with Dean than just physical sex--and (as I said before) probably the same thing that Amara wanted--a soul connection, so to speak.  That's something way beyond "romance" and more like soulmates; and it's something that humans  can't just choose to provide.  And that's why Cas knew he couldn't get it from Dean.  

Edited November 6, 2020 by ahrtee

[Terese]

5 hours ago, The Companion said:

He starts the speech talking about wanting what he can't have. I don't see how you can read that as anything other than romantic. He says: "I never found an answer because the one thing I want is something I know I can’t have." 

Dean has expressed love for Castiel in a non-romantic way multiple times. He's family or his brother. I don't see how you can interpret the speech as wanting platonic love. 

What Castiel can't have is being human. But, he can and did experience the effects of it through his experiences and admiration of humanity as represented by Dean...and Sam and Jack. 

[PAForrest]

3 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

I think "receiving this declaration from his best friend" is very telling. If it were a platonic declaration, Dean wouldn't be shocked and Cas' best friend status wouldn't need mentioning. The "Dean can't reciprocate" speaks volumes as well. I don't think it's just because he's straight and therefore can't find Cas' human vessel attractive, but because he just doesn't think of Cas romantically (or he's in shock, or it's the joy that he can't reciprocate, who the hell knows). "Speaking his truth" also seems a bit more impactful than some bro-friendly affirmation of what they have already said to each other (in different words) in the past.

We sure as hell don't have to like it or think it was well-founded or earned, but no way there were zero romantic implications in this scene, especially in addition to the whole "Cas wanting what he can't have" nugget.

Exactly. Look, Cas knows Dean loves him - he called Dean the most loving human being he will ever know FFS. He knows Dean considers him his best friend and family - and Dean loves his friends and family. There is no doubt in Castiel's mind that Dean loves him, as he loves Sam, etc., etc. There's also no doubt in the audience's minds after all these years.

So Cas wanting what he knows/thinks he can't have is something else entirely - it's romantic love. I honestly believe this is what Berens intended. And since I do believe that was his intention, I also think those stage directions that are entirely unnecessary to include, given these two men have been acting together for 10 years and don't need to have their characters' motivations spelled out for them on paper, are put there to pass WB muster.

This is the Destiel moment, it's as on-the-nose as it's going to get, and it's done. But in order for the WB to sign off on it, the declaration had to come from the supernatural character, and the human lead wasn't going to respond back for whatever reason - doesn't see Cas that way, in shock, no time, yada, yada, yada. It doesn't really matter. At this point it's up to each individual viewer to decide. But I do believe those stage directions are there less for the actors and more for the CW and WB.

[Terese]

1 hour ago, ukgirl71 said:

My interpretation, now that I’ve just finished watching the whole episode:  Cas, realising death is coming via Billie, acknowledges that the one thing he felt he couldn’t have was a happy, peaceful life with his family, but has an epiphany - he had that family, he loved that family, and therefore he’s happy at that, albeit retrospective, thought.  He didn’t realise what he had til he had to give up his life to protect them.  Just my thoughts.

Yes. The human experience can never be his, but he can experience it vicariously through Dean et al. He got to be a part of it, even though he is not human, and for that he was grateful and achieved a kind of happiness.

[Casseiopeia]

39 minutes ago, Terese said:

What Castiel can't have is being human. But, he can and did experience the effects of it through his experiences and admiration of humanity as represented by Dean...and Sam and Jack. 

But hasn't Castiel been human a few times already? A few angels chose to lose their grace and become human. He already experienced what that was like.

And how come the Empty was still around anyway? Didn't Jack go there and turn into a black hole that should have consumed everything?

Edited November 6, 2020 by Casseiopeia

[Terese]

Just now, Casseiopeia said:

But hasn't Castiel been human a few times already? A few angels chose to lose their grace and become human. He already experienced what that was like.

And how come the Empty was still around anyway? Didn't Jack go there and turn into a black hole that should have consumed everything?

I think he was simply acknowledging that on some level he achieved humanity via Dean, Sam etc. Not just the artificial state of having his grace taken, but a consciousness. "I think, therefore, I am," kind of thing.

[Bergamot]

My first reaction to seeing this episode was a sigh of relief. I disliked the last episode so much, and I was dreading this one. Not that it turned out to be awesome or anything, but it could have been a lot worse.

One thing that I liked about this episode was the way Dean's apology to Sam was handled. It wasn't dragged out, there were no histrionics. Sam didn't get all huffy and self-righteous; he simply responded by saying "You've snapped me out of worse", and that was that. Compare it to Sam's reaction to learning that Dean knew that Billie's plan would kill Jack, with his bizarrely over-the-top "How dare you!" reaction. Unlike that, this was believable and made sense for the characters.

I also liked the little scene where Sam tells Jack that he needs him to drive, in order to distract him and give him something to do. It was a nice thing for Sam to do. To my surprise, I found myself liking Sam here more than I have in a long time. The writers don't seem to get it -- it is the scenes like the one with Dean's apology and the one with Jack in the car that help make a character. Not ones like the scene with AU Bobby where he is like, "Sam, you're the BIG MAN here -- we'll all do whatever you say without question!" That kind of stuff doesn't make me admire a character; it just makes me roll my eyes.

I liked how pro-active Dean was here -- attacking Billie to get Jack away from her, then taking the fight straight to her by charging into her library with her blade. We saw before that how Dean believed things were pretty hopeless, but that didn't mean he was going to give up fighting for "his people". And I LOVED Billie's description of Dean, and how pissed-off she sounded: "Death-defying. Rule-breaking. You are human disorder incarnate." Yes, indeed, that's my boy!

As for the big scene with Dean and Castiel, I have mixed feelings. I mean, sure, I love hearing nice things said about Dean, and everything Castiel said was absolutely true. Dean is not just a destructive, angry "blunt instrument"; he is selfless and caring and acts out of love, and we have seen how he has changed others for the better just by being who he is.

On the other hand, Castiel's speech just seemed so heavy-handed, so on the nose. It would have been much more effective if his words had been more understated, implying things, making references that a fan of the show would understand, rather than spelling them out so explicitly. LIke, all Castiel had to say is "You are not just a blunt instrument" and we would know what he meant -- he didn't have to spell it all out exactly what Dean thinks of himself. Honestly, it sounded very much like something produced by an inexperienced fanfiction writer. (And somehow, I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that Berens did write fanfiction!)

But the more serious problem I had with Castiel's big speech is what others have referred to, which is the fact that this seemed to come out of nowhere. So Castiel's "deepest truth" is that he loves Dean more than anyone and thinks he is wonderful? Show me one thing that he has said or done in the last few seasons that demonstrates this. It's like Castiel just suddenly remembered, "Oh, that's right -- I love Dean!"

Edited November 7, 2020 by Bergamot

[The Companion]

55 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

Exactly. Look, Cas knows Dean loves him - he called Dean the most loving human being he will ever know FFS. He knows Dean considers him his best friend and family - and Dean loves his friends and family. There is no doubt in Castiel's mind that Dean loves him, as he loves Sam, etc., etc. There's also no doubt in the audience's minds after all these years.

So Cas wanting what he knows/thinks he can't have is something else entirely - it's romantic love. I honestly believe this is what Berens intended. And since I do believe that was his intention, I also think those stage directions that are entirely unnecessary to include, given these two men have been acting together for 10 years and don't need to have their characters' motivations spelled out for them on paper, are put there to pass WB muster.

This is the Destiel moment, it's as on-the-nose as it's going to get, and it's done. But in order for the WB to sign off on it, the declaration had to come from the supernatural character, and the human lead wasn't going to respond back for whatever reason - doesn't see Cas that way, in shock, no time, yada, yada, yada. It doesn't really matter. At this point it's up to each individual viewer to decide. But I do believe those stage directions are there less for the actors and more for the CW and WB.

Agreed. His deepest truth is: I love you.

Also, I know there is a lot of talk about his lack of reaction but I want to give JA some credit. He looked absolutely destroyed on the floor. I personally think he was supposed to be shocked and also terrified of losing Cas. 

Look, I agree with a lot of the people here about the lack of foundation in the story. It's why I was never a Destiel shipper. I don't see the same lines of a love story as, say, Queliot (don't get me started). But he looks Dean in the eye and unequivocally says: I love you. He makes it clear that he thought he couldn't have that love and this is him saying it. 

I also just feel obligated to point out that sexuality is not the same as who you have had sexual relationships with or shown externally apparent interest in. Honestly, Cas has barely shown interest in anyone and doesn't really have any real relationships beyond the guys. Showing interest in women doesn't preclude him from being interested in a man, and he already lacks gender in the human sense. Though I understand that the intent above was probably more to say the writers failed to establish that he might have a romantic interest in a man, and therefore the foundation was not there, I just wanted to point that out.

[FlickChick]

The part of the scene that bothered me was that it came out of nowhere! Cas' relationship with Dean in the Badd years especially, has been mostly nonexistent. He's been entirely focused on Nougat Boy. So to come to Dean when they might both die, and say that his true happiness is in just being with this loving, wonderful, loyal Dean, seems completely unearned in the narrative we've seen for four years. I loved hearing Cas' descriptions of Dean's attributes and saying that everyone who really knows Dean knows these things about his character. *That would be me and other Dean fans* I also know that the scene was written in that language to deliberately pander to the Destiel crowd, because these writers are just that bad - and don't care about anyone who doesn't like it or believe it. I really don't care either way - romantic, sexual, soulmate. I've always liked the character of Cas and abhorred the way the writers treated him, making him nothing more than Jack's nursemaid in the final seasons. So I'll interpret the scene as I wish, thankful for someone recognizing Dean's fine qualities and telling him - which is rare indeed. I'll also say that Cas probably won't be back - it most likely was his final scene, but I'm glad we had Misha for so many years. And you know I can't end any comments without my signature last words. FUCK YOU WRITERS!!!!

ETA: @Bergamot, I was writing this as you posted. Sorry I was repeating much that you said.

Edited November 6, 2020 by FlickChick

[Bergamot]

7 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

ETA: @Bergamot, I was writing this as you posted. Sorry I was repeating much that you said.

Ha, likewise, FlickChick! GMTA!

[Terese]

40 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

But hasn't Castiel been human a few times already? A few angels chose to lose their grace and become human. He already experienced what that was like.

And how come the Empty was still around anyway? Didn't Jack go there and turn into a black hole that should have consumed everything?

By this show's current standards and shallow understanding of science, yes. As they keep changing the nature of the EMPTY, who knows. Theoretically, a black hole consumes energy and matter. If Jack created or is himself now a black hole, he will consume everything. There isn't enough consistency to even begin to understand where all the implausible science fiction is heading. I suppose they are clumsily setting up the reset big bang.

[Smad]

28 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Honestly, it sounded very much like something produced by an inexperienced fanfiction writer. (And somehow, I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that Berens did write fanfiction!)

To me it's simply pandering to the fanbase. This is what Dabb has been doing during his entire run and it got worse every year. It's so obvious that this was for the Destiel crowd. And it was the most cowardly way they could have done it. They never wanted to go there while the show was actually continuing. Now that it's ending and they don't have to follow through (even for the rest of the Season since Cas is dead), they threw a bone to pander to the Destiel crowd. Despite the fact that Dabb completely ruined their relationship and Cas himself during his run. That's why this declaration of love, whatever your interpretation, is worth nothing more than eye rolls.

[Dobian]

23 hours ago, shoetingstar said:

Cas was a character that had such potential that was wasted this sacrificial death highlights that unfortunately. I'm not a Destiel shipper but I thought for a second they would actually let Dean said he loved him or Cas would give him a big ole kiss.

Yeah the way Cas was looking at Dean in that moment I suddenly flashed back to Ricky Bobby and Jean Girard at the end of Talladega Nights lol.

[KayCordingly]

Just got finished watching the episode (due to us not having live tv anymore). Thoughts before I read the thread:

My first thought was "wow, they are really praising Dean up this episode! I wonder if the Primetimer forum will finally be happy? ...probably not. They're probably going to focus on being pissed at Bobby's propping Sam up as the big head honcho or whatever." 😂

Seriously though, loved how empathetic Sam with Dean in the beginning, as well as Castiel's monologue at the end.

Tbh the "oh noes you slightly nicked me I'm dead forever now" seemed a bit of a cop-out for such a major villain as Death. But eh, I guess they've killed Death before with the scythe; gotta change it up a little bit.

Having everyone disappear, one-by-one, up to and including Bobby & Charlie, was tense and heartbreaking. Sam & Jack sold it for me. I can't believe I'm saying this, but even Jack's face looked legitimately horrified.

I'm actually still processing the idea that this was the last time we will ever see Castiel on screen again. It's difficult to comprehend.

I can see why the episode was called "Despair". That last scene will haunt me until the day I die.

[Macbeth]

A picture from earlier, better times.  I really haven't watched seasons 12-14.  I have been in and out.

Watching this season - watching Cas for me has been heartbreaking.  He seemed so depressed all the time.  Disappointed in how things turned out.  

I was happy with Castiel's profession of love for Dean.  It seemed very true to how I know Castiel and his deep bond with Dean.  I think in terms of canon - what I have seen of Dabb's run will not be canon for me for the most part.  The writing of course could have been better.  But I was so glad Misha finally got a scene worthy of his talent.  All in all it was a wonderful send off for his character.

It was a surprisingly moving moment for me.  I didn't think the show still had that power for me.  

 

Edited November 7, 2020 by Macbeth

[PAForrest]

I agree with everyone saying how it feels like the declaration came out of nowhere, but only because of the Drabb years and Castiel's sudden and laser focused attention on Princess mcguffin all this time.

But before the brat arrived on the scene, the relationship between Dean and Cas was special - however you want to look at it, certainly doesn't have to be romantic. But they always had a special bond - a "profound bond", if you will - since the moment Cas snagged Dean from Hell. And throughout the years lots of characters have remarked on it. Even Balthazar told Dean not to confuse him with "the angel who's in love with you."

So in terms of the series overall since Castiel's entrance, it doesn't come out of nowhere. What does give one whiplash now is, again, how so much of the last three years gave us a Cas who only seemed to care about Jack. If only, oh I don't know, the producers had some indication that this was the last season - like they freaking did!!!! - and planned and plotted the season accordingly to focus a lot more directly on Dean, Sam, and Cas, and didn't shove the mcguffin in our faces as the end all be all instead. So much wasted screen time. Jack could have been used a lot better than he was, and certainly not to the detriment of the two leads and the one regular character who has been there since season four.

Still, I was very touched, and I didn't think that was possible since I had very much given up on the character of Cas. I thought it was a powerfully acted scene, but I also think Misha got screwed before the end. I thought going in that the entire episode would focus more heavily on him, but it didn't. A lot going on, too many characters. It wasn't until the end with Dean and Death that Cas was given real focus.

[S Cook Productions]

7 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

I think "receiving this declaration from his best friend" is very telling. If it were a platonic declaration, Dean wouldn't be shocked and Cas' best friend status wouldn't need mentioning. The "Dean can't reciprocate" speaks volumes as well. I don't think it's just because he's straight and therefore can't find Cas' human vessel attractive, but because he just doesn't think of Cas romantically (or he's in shock, or it's the joy that he can't reciprocate, who the hell knows). "Speaking his truth" also seems a bit more impactful than some bro-friendly affirmation of what they have already said to each other (in different words) in the past.

We sure as hell don't have to like it or think it was well-founded or earned, but no way there were zero romantic implications in this scene, especially in addition to the whole "Cas wanting what he can't have" nugget.

This does make it seem that way, a way I didn’t personally see it originally (but I’m not a shipper). Where did this script side come from? Do we know it’s legit? At any rate, I think it was totally meant to be ambiguous. The shippers can be happy, and casual viewers like my friends and family just saw a nice tear-jerker scene that they loved but didn’t for one minute take it to be more than familial love. So I guess they figured that would be a win-win. Also, didn’t Dabb joke once that he thought the finale eps would make 30% of the audience happy? Maybe destielers make up about 30%? 🤷🏼‍♀️