E01.08: After the Rain

[Chicago Redshirt]

Marina's whole deal was that she wanted to marry George because she loved him. She gave up hope because he hadn't written her back and then she got the fake George letter.

So to me, it's perfectly understandable that she was rejecting as best she could the notion of a pragmatic arrangement until she had no choice but to face the reality that she and her baby would be social outcasts and unable to earn a living. 

Getting George's half-finished letter in which he made it clear that he did love her back probably stirred the romantic notion that she could find true love again. And if she didn't have to worry about paving the way for the baby, she could have managed somehow.

Coming round to the abortion attempt, I find it curious that Hollywood for all its supposed liberal politics has a real hard time with abortion. Usually, women don't fully consider it or they consciously choose not to do it. And there's usually a miscarriage by tripping down the stairs or something. I know that in 1813 there would be few options for Marina to do a second try at an abortion, but I thought it interesting that does not seem to occur to her, and that none of the Featheringtons seem to judge her for having tried.

[UnoAgain]

2 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

and that none of the Featheringtons seem to judge her for having tried

Well honestly only Pen and Mama Featherington really mattered from a POV.. And Pen as Pen was a caring friend.. And Mama F seemed like a pragmatic woman.. I was expecting her to talk to marina about better abortion options than tea.. But they kinda just breezed past it

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 minute ago, UnoAgain said:

Well honestly only Pen and Mama Featherington really mattered from a POV.. And Pen as Pen was a caring friend.. And Mama F seemed like a pragmatic woman.. I was expecting her to talk to marina about better abortion options than tea.. But they kinda just breezed past it

I kind of wonder if there should have been a reveal of what Pen as Lady W thought as to whether to report on Marina's abortion. Now that she had gotten Marina out of the way as a romantic rival, did she decide no need to embarass her further? 

[BlackberryJam]

Penelope’s motivation was to save Colin from being tricked into marriage. She accomplished that, and was shown to be devastated by the whole thing, sobbing with Eloise. Penelope has no realistic expectation that Colin will ever want to be with her. She’s been degraded for being fat by her family far too much for her to think she could snag a Bridgerton. 

I absolutely applaud the portrayal of Marina’s abortion attempt. Abortion is often the pragmatic choice and it’s not this devastating, life-defining event. It’s nice to see it as just another medical procedure.

As to Marina believing in love again after receiving George’s half finished letter, I don’t buy it. Penelope proved to her that George’s rejection letter was fake and that he hadn’t dumped her at all and Marina said that didn’t matter; she was still going after Colin. That’s where I loathed the writing for Marina. She’s a fool for love and believes George will come for her whiplashing to she’s ready to give up on George because she’s got Colin on the hook to oh no, she does believe in love. It’s just crappy characterization. 

Edited December 27, 2020 by BlackberryJam

[Door County Cherry]

While Penelope's actions as Whistledown are on topic for this episode and can still be discussed here, I did just create a Lady Whistledown: Friend or Foe thread specifically for discussion around Lady Whistledown and her actions.

It'd help to streamline discussion if people moved their thoughts on that topic over there and give this thread some room to breathe about other aspects of this episode.  

[Neurochick]

12 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Lord F scammed some pretty unsavory-seeming types to win a huge bet. He put the deed for his house and I think they were paying off on the other guy 5 to 2 odds. Which means if his house was worth 2,000 pounds (to pull a number out of my butt for what a fancy home might have been worth back then), the gamblers would have had to pay 5,000 pounds out of pocket. 

So the gamblers probably put two and two together to figure out that he got the boxer to take a dive. It's not a good idea to cheat unsavory gambler types.

I thought something like that.  Like Lord F was gambling with the big boys, what we'd call "orgianized crime types" today.  I agree that they realized they'd been scammed, that he got the boxer to take a dive, which wasn't hard to figure out, since the other boxer (The Beast) kind of sucked.  

But...who inherited the Featherington estate?  When Maria was walking down the stairs, going to her fate and the others were watching her go, the housekeeper slips a piece of paper to Lady F.  

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Penelope’s motivation was to save Colin from being tricked into marriage. She accomplished that, and was shown to be devastated by the whole thing, sobbing with Eloise. Penelope has no realistic expectation that Colin will ever want to be with her. She’s been degraded for being fat by her family far too much for her to think she could snag a Bridgerton. 

I absolutely applaud the portrayal of Marina’s abortion attempt. Abortion is often the pragmatic choice and it’s not this devastating, life-defining event. It’s nice to see it as just another medical procedure.

As to Marina believing in love again after receiving George’s half finished letter, I don’t buy it. Penelope proved to her that George’s rejection letter was fake and that he hadn’t dumped her at all and Marina said that didn’t matter; she was still going after Colin. That’s where I loathed the writing for Marina. She’s a fool for love and believes George will come for her whiplashing to she’s ready to give up on George because she’s got Colin on the hook to oh no, she does believe in love. It’s just crappy characterization. 

The reason why Marina said it didn't matter was because she thought that even though the letter she received from "George" was fake it was still clear that Real George didn't care about her since he had ample time to write back and show the joy she expected him to. The lack of a letter from Real George spoke to her volumes as to where he stood. She didn't give up on George because she had Colin on the hook. She gave up on George because she had no reason to think he'd possibly come back after ample time to respond.

[Chicago Redshirt]

4 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

I thought something like that.  Like Lord F was gambling with the big boys, what we'd call "orgianized crime types" today.  I agree that they realized they'd been scammed, that he got the boxer to take a dive, which wasn't hard to figure out, since the other boxer (The Beast) kind of sucked.  

But...who inherited the Featherington estate?  When Maria was walking down the stairs, going to her fate and the others were watching her go, the housekeeper slips a piece of paper to Lady F.  

My first bit of unspoiled speculation is that the unsavory types (Don Corleonington? Sir Anthony Montoya?) forced Lord F to sign a will granting it to them. 

My second bit is that Lord F has a to-be-seen brother or something to enter the picture.

[ouinason]

16 hours ago, Neurochick said:

 Had she married Colin she would have at least been happy,

Yeah, so who cares if Colin would have been happy. 

I feel for Marina, but she's not the victim here.

[Door County Cherry]

26 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

But...who inherited the Featherington estate?  When Maria was walking down the stairs, going to her fate and the others were watching her go, the housekeeper slips a piece of paper to Lady F.  

I guess that's the cliffhanger.  I'm guessing someone who challenges Mama F.

 

2 minutes ago, ouinason said:

Yeah, so who cares if Colin would have been happy. 

We don't know that he wouldn't have been. Premature baby and we're off.

[ouinason]

I just don't want to live in a world where it's ok to treat people that way.

[ouinason]

I don't think the show takes up more than 3 months all together. 

I know that the London Season was basically spring and people spent the summer out of the city, because it stank in London... bad.

Colin didn't have his own home from what was shown, so he'd have brought Marina to live with his family.  Someone would have figured it out. 

He would have hated her and probably never trusted her again.  Most likely getting himself a mistress and not touching her.  Or leaving to travel the world and her alone with his family who hate her.  There was never going to be a happy ending.

[RachelKM]

42 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

My first bit of unspoiled speculation is that the unsavory types (Don Corleonington? Sir Anthony Montoya?) forced Lord F to sign a will granting it to them. 

 

He couldn't will them anything that was entailed. It seems that Lord Featherington had already lost all the money and probably mortgaged the unentailed property to pay for their lifestyle up to that point. The person who would inherit the title would also inherit the properties tied to that title. 

[Enero]

51 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

He couldn't will them anything that was entailed. It seems that Lord Featherington had already lost all the money and probably mortgaged the unentailed property to pay for their lifestyle up to that point. The person who would inherit the title would also inherit the properties tied to that title. 

Agreed. And it looked like he’d already spent the money he’d won from Will throwing the fight.  I don’t think the house will be going to a relative, distant or otherwise. It’s either going to one of the gangsters with whom he was placing bets or an enemy of Mrs. F. who lives amongst the high society of London and has “investments” in the gambling industry. 

18 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

Wait a minute. Marina is going to snow a perfectly nice guy and saddle him in a marriage when she doesn’t love him and foist a child that isn’t his off on him, and Penelope is a terrible, terrible person for blowing the whistle? What the everliving mother of fuck?

Don’t get me wrong. At times I was side eying Marina’s diabolical behavior towards Colin. But honestly when viewed through the lens of early 19th century society, who can blame her for what she was trying to do. She had no choice if she wished to have some sense of a safety and security for herself and her baby. Just as Daphne was naive and most of the women in London society, about sex and it’s consequences I’m certain Marina was naive too, until her periods stopped and she realized something was amiss. My point the lack of knowledge and the intoxication that comes with love which leads to passion and desire is what started this unfortunate situation that she found herself in. That said, I don’t think the brother would feel deceived or horrified if he discovered that Marina was pregnant with George’s baby. In fact, I’m surprised he didn’t already know. I mean surely the letters Marina had written George were also found amongst his things that spoke of her pregnancy?

Penelope isn’t a freaking saint

Well that’s certainly the truth. She is far from it. In fact, I’d label her more the devil than a misguided soul. She is not the type of “friend” I’d want to have. One who smiles in your face, all the while publishing yours and your family’s secrets, causing destruction in her wake.  I don’t have anything really to add to what others have said about her deception except I agree with all that has been said. She’s the worst kind and I hope she’s eventually found out, perhaps when she’s about to marry Colin which would be rich (if that happens) and suffers the consequences of her actions.

This was a great show, which I enjoyed immensely. I’m excited to see what they do with a 2nd season. If Daphne and Simon get story I too would like to see external conflict ie dealing with their Duke/Duchess responsibilities. Exploring some missteps and triumphs. They mentioned some potential issues during the season with the dire situation amongst tenants and Daphne not picking a winner for the pig contest at the fair, but they failed to go deeper. 

I’m also interested in Anthony’s search for a viscount. Hopefully we’ll never see the opera singer again. 

And I think Marina’s story  can be further explored, which would be interesting. And of course the situation with the Featheringtons should prove very interesting as well. 

[Door County Cherry]

I think the writing for Marina was consistent but the writing for Siena wasn't. 

I think Marina feels like she's a survivor.  It's why she was willing to gamble and wait until George came back to her.  It's why she was willing to gamble with her own life and not try and find a mate.  When she realized it wouldn't be good for her kid, she used her charm to try and carve out a better life than what not getting married would have given her. She was wishful more than naive.

Siena is the character I didn't get.  She knew what being a mistress of a man who had to marry well would entail.  Her anger at being dumped in the first episode didn't make sense to me. The last scene made more sense for a woman in her position.  It'd be one thing if they had shown her having to be persuaded by Anthony that they could have a future together as opposed to expecting it.  Instead, Ep 1 she's naive. Ep 8 she's a realist.  

[bijoux]

2 hours ago, ouinason said:

Colin didn't have his own home from what was shown, so he'd have brought Marina to live with his family.  Someone would have figured it out. 

I find it hard to believe that Anthony wouldn't have artanged for a separate household for Colin if Colin was too young to access the funds left to him by their father. Anthony could and at times was a major prick, but I don't think he wouldn't help his brother. 

22 minutes ago, Enero said:

Don’t get me wrong. At times I was side eying Marina’s diabolical behavior towards Colin. But honestly when viewed through the lens of early 19th century society, who can blame her for what she was trying to do. She had no choice if she wished to have some sense of a safety and security for herself and her baby. Just as Daphne was naive and most of the women in London society, about sex and it’s consequences I’m certain Marina was naive too, until her periods stopped and she realized something was amiss. My point the lack of knowledge and the intoxication that comes with love which leads to passion and desire is what started this unfortunate situation that she found herself in. That said, I don’t think the brother would feel deceived or horrified if he discovered that Marina was pregnant with George’s baby. In fact, I’m surprised he didn’t already know. I mean surely the letters Marina had written George were also found amongst his things that spoke of her pregnancy?

One, I feel certain Phillip does know about Marina's pregnancy. He proposed to her because George had compromised her. He clearly learned that from her letters which would also include information about her pregnancy. 

Two, which I find more interesting, is that there was a thread of it's damned awful to keep women clueless about their bodies and sexualities. There's Marina finding herself in a desperate situation, Daphne having no clue whatsoever for days or weeks after her wedding, Eloise wanting desperately to find out in order to protect herself and  Penelope, Phillipa forgetting that Marina's child wasn't Colin's. Yes, half of these were played for laughs and I certainly laughed along, but when you lay it all out together, it's damn tragic and consequences vary greatly. And I think this was intentional and applaud it. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 hours ago, RachelKM said:

He couldn't will them anything that was entailed. It seems that Lord Featherington had already lost all the money and probably mortgaged the unentailed property to pay for their lifestyle up to that point. The person who would inherit the title would also inherit the properties tied to that title. 

I'm operating under the assumption that he still retained the deed to the house because he had not yet mortgaged (or at leeast over-mortgaged) it. 

There is also a question of what happened to the money that Lord F. won. The two most likely possibilities are that Lord F. actually paid off a good number of his debts or the unsavory types made him make a involuntary withdrawal.

I would think that Lord and Lady F would be keenly aware of the line of succession since they didn't have a male heir and women couldn't really inherit property in their own right. So for Lady F to need a piece of paper to now who stands to inherit suggests to me that a new player has entered the picture. But we will see.

(Or someone who is familiar with the answer from the books can spill that tea under a spoiler tag in the appropriate place. For me at least, the plot developments in this show are less interesting than the style in which they are carried out)

[bijoux]

A discussion in another thread reminded me of the closing scene in the show. Intelectually I get that it was meant to contrast the scene of Simon's birth. While his mother was alone with the doctor and the servants and Lady Danburry having to fight her way in at the last moment, and her husband was only angrily waiting to what he saw as his God given right to an heir, Daphne was clutching Simon's and Violet's hands and she was Simon's primary concern. And I get that, I truly do. But my first reaction was, oh, there's Daphne, once again grinding and grunting on her back. 

10 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I would think that Lord and Lady F would be keenly aware of the line of succession since they didn't have a male heir and women couldn't really inherit property in their own right. So for Lady F to need a piece of paper to now who stands to inherit suggests to me that a new player has entered the picture. But we will see.

(Or someone who is familiar with the answer from the books can spill that tea under a spoiler tag in the appropriate place. For me at least, the plot developments in this show are less interesting than the style in which they are carried out)

I truly think this is a show storyline. I don't remember anything about it from the books so I'm intrigued as well.

Spoiler

Featherington is a Mr. in the books, no Lord. So there was certainly no entailment. I think he was already dead before the first book and don't recall any gambling problems being mentioned.

 

[RachelKM]

23 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

There is also a question of what happened to the money that Lord F. won. The two most likely possibilities are that Lord F. actually paid off a good number of his debts or the unsavory types made him make a involuntary withdrawal.

I got the impression that the thugs forced a withdrawal. He said he could pay off his debts, but I don't know that he had time to get that far and Lady F seemed shocked that it was all gone. Eve if he paid some or all, I think it all being gone is an indication that Lord F was forced to turn whatever was there over to them. 

11 minutes ago, bijoux said:

Spoiler

So there was certainly no entailment. I think he was already dead before the first book and don't recall any gambling problems being mentioned.

 

Spoiler

Even non-peerage sometimes had entailed properties. (See the Bennets in P&P and the Dashwoods in S&S) All that was required was for an entailment to be written into a will.  It was actually rather common in the landed classes because there was a preference for not breaking up income earning properties.

 

Edited December 27, 2020 by RachelKM

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, Door County Cherry said:

I think the writing for Marina was consistent but the writing for Siena wasn't. 

I think Marina feels like she's a survivor.  It's why she was willing to gamble and wait until George came back to her.  It's why she was willing to gamble with her own life and not try and find a mate.  When she realized it wouldn't be good for her kid, she used her charm to try and carve out a better life than what not getting married would have given her. She was wishful more than naive.

Siena is the character I didn't get.  She knew what being a mistress of a man who had to marry well would entail.  Her anger at being dumped in the first episode didn't make sense to me. The last scene made more sense for a woman in her position.  It'd be one thing if they had shown her having to be persuaded by Anthony that they could have a future together as opposed to expecting it.  Instead, Ep 1 she's naive. Ep 8 she's a realist.  

I get Siena. Here's how her character works from my perspective:

At some point prior to us meeting Siena, Anthony has promised her the sun and the moon, a future together like any good rake would. Part of her knows it's too good to be true. He's a goddamn viscount! She's just a lowly opera singer. Talented and beautiful, sure. But that's not going to last forever. What's going to happen when the next hot young thing comes his way? Or more realistically when he starts focusing on his viscount-ish? viscountry? viscountly? duties and responsibilities, among which is marrying someone and getting an heir. He CANNOT marry someone like her out of love. People generally don't do that, and definitely for nobility marriage has to be a business transaction. He has to marry up, or at least laterally, in honor of the Bridgerton name and rank. But despite knowing all this in her head, Siena loves him and at least partially holds out hope that one day she will be more than Anthony's dirty little open secret.

By the time we meet her, Siena has been burnt (burnt Siena, if you'll allow my off-color joke) by Anthony's promises a number of times. But whether it's the sunk-cost fallacy, unsupported optimism that Anthony will turn things around, or Anthony's d- game being so strong, she's still putting up with him.  

Anthony finally breaks up with her. But the heart wants what the heart wants. She knew one thing with her head, but another with her heart.

Then she (I assume) deliberately flirts with Simon to make Anthony jealous. Which somewhat works. Then Anthony comes back and says he's either going to be dead or he's going to flee because of the duel and he wants her to come with her. This rekindles the notion of them being together in a way that they haven't because he's Lord B. And then that doesn't happen.  (Sorry if I'm glossing over some parts of their story or mixing the order up). Basically, she is attracted to him and some sort of version of a good life together despite the obstacles of circumstances and society.

It takes Anthony breaking down and saying, "Hey, I am willing to for this night to bring you into my world and not care that you're not noble" for things to click (at least for now) -- she doesn't want to be Lady Siena or to have to deal with any of the society bullshit. She wants to make a better life for herself on her own terms, something Anthony just isn't capable of helping her do. And so (at least for now) she is willing to kick Anthony to the curb in a pretty big in-yo-face way -- you thought I was going to be with you tonight but I'm literally going up the stairs to fuck this dude, probably after having just fucked him, and you ain't never gonna have this again.  

Edited December 27, 2020 by Chicago Redshirt

[EyewatchTV211]

3 hours ago, Enero said:

Well that’s certainly the truth. She is far from it. In fact, I’d label her more the devil than a misguided soul. She is not the type of “friend” I’d want to have. One who smiles in your face, all the while publishing yours and your family’s secrets, causing destruction in her wake.  I don’t have anything really to add to what others have said about her deception except I agree with all that has been said. She’s the worst kind and I hope she’s eventually found out, perhaps when she’s about to marry Colin which would be rich (if that happens) and suffers the consequences of her actions.

Spoiler

This is an unfortunate change from the book, and I wonder if the show writers have any clue the way that they completely flipped people's opinions of a core character based on made up events with a very minor book character. It is made very clear in the books (especially in Penelope's book) that she only wrote truly negative things about people who were considered to be bullies or otherwise terrible people and was generally kind in her writings about those more deserving. Because of that specifically, fans of "Lady Whistledown" included people like Lady Danbury. So she would never smile in someone's face and then write something devastating afterwards. They were either unkind to her and to others and/or didn't even notice her existence as Penelope. 

 

[Katsullivan]

Well the Baby Ever After ending was sentimental enough to almost make me forget the rape that preceded it. Almost. I guess this isn't the kind of show that invites deep speculation into our designated heroes's motives. Daphne gets everything she wants without her own actions being questioned or examined. Simon's trauma was solved by the power of her couche. The reveal of Penelope is assuming book canon because it made even less sense than Dan Humphrey and that's saying something. It casts her friendship with Marina in an ugly light that I'm not sure the show realizes since apparently we're still supposed to root for them? 

Were those sex scenes filmed before or after the Covid outbreak?

Does anyone know if this is a limited series or if there'll be more? I know there is a book for each Bridgerton's romance, but I don't know what the TV series's deal is.  

[EyewatchTV211]

38 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

Well the Baby Ever After ending was sentimental enough to almost make me forget the rape that preceded it. Almost. I guess this isn't the kind of show that invites deep speculation into our designated heroes's motives. Daphne gets everything she wants without her own actions being questioned or examined. Simon's trauma was solved by the power of her couche. The reveal of Penelope is assuming book canon because it made even less sense than Dan Humphrey and that's saying something. It casts her friendship with Marina in an ugly light that I'm not sure the show realizes since apparently we're still supposed to root for them? 

Were those sex scenes filmed before or after the Covid outbreak?

Does anyone know if this is a limited series or if there'll be more? I know there is a book for each Bridgerton's romance, but I don't know what the TV series's deal is.  

I agree that the show doesn't seem to realize the ugly light it casts considering so many here now hate Penelope while she was generally liked from the books.

The show finished filming right before production universally shut down. I think February? Or early March at the latest.

It hasn't officially been renewed, but there's reference to possibly starting to shoot season 2 in March. So I guess it is expected to return. I don't know how many seasons they are hoping for. Someone else on one of these threads mentioned something about 5 books at the most - not sure where that information came from. 

[TrininisaScorp]

Chicago Redshirt, I agree with your assessment.  Siena's conversation with another self made woman in Mademoiselle Eloise really underlines that while they would like the security, they see the peerage, ton women as pretty caged birds, and neither have real interest in that.  From a modern perspective, I appreciate that. 

Duke Hastings looks like he was meant to be in those clothes.  What a gloriously dashing, charming man!  (That actor is fine like wine) You can tell the riding boots did give him trouble.  In that last scene of the two making up fully, Hastings picks Daphne up and it looks like he stumbles a moment.  I giggled a little. Heh. 

I struggle a bit with how neatly at least a couple decades worth of trauma was so quickly resolved for Hastings, and I really was taken out of the story with the episode 6 rape-y, WTF scene.  It makes it hard to cheer for our young lovers, and I haven't been able to look at Daphne the same way.  That said, I would like to see more of the two balancing their roles as duke/duchess, parents, and the responsibilities therein.  We did see a little bit, but their young passion (over and over and over, for pete's sake) was their whole thing in the middle of running the house.  Truly, Daphne is the least interesting of all of her siblings. The kids are fun, the brothers are characterized well, worts and all, Eloise is an interesting plucky character, the little we saw of Francesca was good.  Daphne is very pretty and very boring.  I get that is the trope you have with a character who is meant to be part of the BIG LOVE THING, but oy...

I find Anthony interesting as a character, and wonder how that will work out b/c him being a cold fish viscount in need of an obligation of a bride is rough.   He's a tough character b/c he bottles up his desires and urges b/c he feels like he's the great Viscount and should, but falls mightily almost each time.  I do not believe he is a bad man, but one who is misguided and indulged, so learning boundaries and how to treat people, especially women people, isn't high on his list.  I hope for a great lady to challenge that, and he not end up with some doormat that obliges his bullshit.  I also hope that the great lady doesn't try to reform or fix him b/c he's a grown ass man, and needs to come to some of these realizations on his own. I may be asking for too much. 

I love Lady Danbury.  That's my whole statement about her.  Her dresses were always amazing, and the actress truly delivered with such panache. 

The Featherington sisters were very well drawn; these ladies reminded me of the vapid Austen characters that were clearly meant to be sharp satire.  Pen as Her Lady Gossip Girl, makes sense up until you really dissect the Marina article.  I get that she was very upset, but way to burn down your whole face to spite your nose.  So, to your points above, who is she?  Is she worldly (understanding the nuance of human relationships and where babies come from), or she a meek girl just repeating and putting together what she hears and observes?  And to what end?  

I feel for Marina b/c while she is not an innocent party, she obviously didn't have a real choice in the matter.  B/c she and child, the child that belongs to the man she knows loved her, would be in the street.  Hopefully, the brother is good guy, and they can learn to have a good life together for themselves and for the child.  

It was so frustrating to see all the consequences of actions simply because women were allowed no agency over themselves, their bodies, or their sexuality.  

All in all, my friends and I binged in a day and a half and couldn't stop texting each other about it. Beautiful, lush look and feel with pretty people doing things.  While the big romance was the least interesting, the whole thing was pretty dang good.  Good holiday break show!

Edited December 28, 2020 by TrininisaScorp

[Scarlett45]

8 hours ago, TrininisaScorp said:

I love Lady Danbury.  That's my whole statement about her.  Her dresses were always amazing, and the actress truly delivered with such panache. 

My Mom wants to be Lady Danbury when she grows up- she was fan girling over ALL of her wardrobe. 

[Ohiopirate02]

7 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

My Mom wants to be Lady Danbury when she grows up- she was fan girling over ALL of her wardrobe. 

Dont we all want to be Lady Danbury when we grow up?  The worldly wealthy widow is one of my favorite romance novel supporting characters.  She gets to have all of the fun.

[TheOtherOne]

On 12/27/2020 at 9:20 AM, bijoux said:

Marina thought she wasn't pregnant anymore when she turned down Phillip. She thought her abortion attempt had worked and had no pressing to get married. 

She did still have a pressing need to get married, though. She was still ruined. Even if she hadn't still been pregnant at that point, the world knew she had been and wasn't a virgin, which meant she was unlikely to find a decent marriage and still had few options. The brother of the man who'd knocked her up was offering to take care of her. Pregnant or not, she should have taken the offer immediately. His brother was the one who'd ruined her; his family should be the ones taking care of her. Turning down his offer was stupid.

And then, when she realized that she was still pregnant, she still had to be talked into marrying him instead of immediately jumping at the best offer she was ever going to get. Because she didn't wuuuuuuv him. Because she was a selfish, stupid moron.

Edited December 29, 2020 by TheOtherOne

[DearEvette]

Sigh.  That was fun.

Overall it felt true to the book but took some adaptation liberties that I was pretty pleased with.

Simon, Eloise, Lady Danbury, Lady Featherington, and Queen Charlotte were the stand-outs for me from both a character perspective and from an acting perspective.  I couldn't not watch this through the lens of both a reader of the series and from the perspective of a long time romance novel reader.  From that end, I thought these actors especially really brought a lot of the qualities that make up good on page characters to the screen. 

Sadly I was not as impressed with Daphne, but she finally did come into her own within these last two episodes.  Even if the heroine is supposed to be something above reproach (gack! I can't help myself I am even speaking like I'm in a Regency romance novel) she was a little too vapid for me. 

I am glad also that Colin and Benedict seemed to get more personality the last few es and I was finally able to distinguish them from each orher.  LOL.

I wasn't sure how to feel about the Marina storyline.  One the one hand, yikes that they used the diversity in casting to give the most fraught stroyline to a woman of color.  But, otoh, honestly I felt Marina's story had some of the heart and angst that was kinda missing from Simon and Daphne that should have given their storyline some much needed weight.  Her storyline really was quite meaty and good and benefited a lot from her interactions with Mrs. F.  That last scene with them was really well done.  Polly Walker deserves a hearty bravo!

Liked the addition of the boxer and his wife and how that also in the end tied to the Featheringtons.  It also added a nice bit of look at the middle class/working class that is often missing in Hist-Roms of this era. 

Right at the top of the episode when they are talking about leaving London after the season, Anthony mentions his "lucky mallet."  ha!

I was wondering how the revelation of Lady Whistledown would go down.  Again, as a book reader I knew it was Pen.  So again I could not watch without that knowledge knocking in the back of my head.  I have to say this is where the show kinda fell down for me.  Pen as she is realized on screen seemed too naive, too sheltered to get the Whistledown enterprise up and running.  The actresses face was too youthful and her bearing and demeanour just read as very young to me.  She would have had to make the contact with the printer, negotiate how to get it distributed etc.  It just seems very sophisticated and advanced for a girl who couldn't figure out how babies were made. Now if they had used Eloise's personality (and actress) in place of Pen I could believe it. But not Pen.  Also, I kinda hate Pen for what she did to Marina.  Again, for a girl who is resourceful enough to have an entire ass printed gossip enterprise, you'd think she be smarter about how she went about dealing with Colin and Marina.  Also she is now new, she is a lady of her society, she knew exactly what the consequences would be to Marina and to her family for what she did. 

And finally I hated that little smirk on her face in the last scene.  Again it felt all wrong and came off as a little malicious.  So yeah I came away from this feeling like Pen was trash.

Very curious why the family didn't go into mourning after Mr. F died.  They were still wearing bright clothes, but with their father dead they should have immediately put on mourning clothes.

I am curious about the empty bag.  The money was gone but was the deed to the house as well?  He only staked the deed if he lost the bet.  Since he won he should not have lost the deed to the house.  So he would have gotten it back when he cashed in and got the money.  So it would be weird if the mobster dudes were the owners of the house.  And finally, the scene with Mrs. F asking about who owns the estate doesn't track for me either.   If Featherington is a lord then his estate is entailed -- unless he had the entail broken -- which would have been really rare.  They would know already who his heir is.  And since he had only daughters, his heir would also be very aware they are also next in line to inherit the estate.  Being raised to the title is a big damn deal, the new Baron (?)  would be hotfooting it to his new properties ASAP! So Mr. F could deed over the house if the house was not part of the entail, but not the entire estate. 

Anyway, small nits because yeah I enjoyed this.

[EyewatchTV211]

1 hour ago, DearEvette said:

I was wondering how the revelation of Lady Whistledown would go down.  Again, as a book reader I knew it was Pen.  So again I could not watch without that knowledge knocking in the back of my head.  I have to say this is where the show kinda fell down for me.  Pen as she is realized on screen seemed too naive, too sheltered to get the Whistledown enterprise up and running.  The actresses face was too youthful and her bearing and demeanour just read as very young to me.  She would have had to make the contact with the printer, negotiate how to get it distributed etc.  It just seems very sophisticated and advanced for a girl who couldn't figure out how babies were made. Now if they had used Eloise's personality (and actress) in place of Pen I could believe it. But not Pen.  Also, I kinda hate Pen for what she did to Marina.  Again, for a girl who is resourceful enough to have an entire ass printed gossip enterprise, you'd think she be smarter about how she went about dealing with Colin and Marina.  Also she is now new, she is a lady of her society, she knew exactly what the consequences would be to Marina and to her family for what she did. 

 

Responding in the book vs. series thread

[ursula]

Did I miss the scene where Anthony and Simon make up from their fight?

[bijoux]

23 minutes ago, ursula said:

Did I miss the scene where Anthony and Simon make up from their fight?

I think we're just to take it as a guy thing. They fight and then it's water under the bridge. They were fine in the church waiting for the bishop after the aborted duel. 

[UnoAgain]

On top of everything else.. I'm really mad at pen.. And I guess all og her defenders here saying Colin is innocent... So as to mitigate what she did a bit... And he is... He was a gentleman of standing and wealth and the Third son... A scandal while bothersome could be overcome.. He's now the brother of the duke and duchess... All that is to say.. Thanks to his gender and wealth and relationships he was somewhat protected... You know who was innocent and try put in peril... Marina's child... Who Pen put on blast as a bastard of unknown origin.. Hell even the queen herself know knows that marina thimpson's firstborn is a child of questionable  parentage with a fallen and sullied mother.. Who's been branded lower than low... Its only by grace that the child's uncle will look after him/her.. But odds are the child would  be a second class child in his/her own home.. Even to his/her sibling-cousins..and that's one of the more positive endings.. If it wasn't sir Phillip but just some guy who knew.. How would he.. Better yet his family treat that kid... So Pen crumbling into Eloise's arms after presumably writing and delivering the missive that could destroy that unborn child's life .. gives me little sympathy... As she could've spent that time telling her best friend eloise.. Who the show proved in the aftermath of said story would move mountains to help Pen.. She could've explained to Eloise what was happening... If she did feel sadness for marina.. But wanted to protect Colin more.. She could share with eloise.. Who if she didn't force Colin to listen could've told Anthony or Lady Bridgerton.. As both were at the very least apprehensive at the marriage prospect... In part because they weren't too fond of mama Featherington... 

[Scarlett45]

13 hours ago, DearEvette said:

I am curious about the empty bag.  The money was gone but was the deed to the house as well?  He only staked the deed if he lost the bet.  Since he won he should not have lost the deed to the house.  So he would have gotten it back when he cashed in and got the money.  So it would be weird if the mobster dudes were the owners of the house.

They paid out because he did win the wager, and they were not going to go back on their deal in public. But they KNEW that Mr. Featherington CHEATED and they were not going to let him live because of that.

Bookies will pay out if you honestly win, even if it hurts them, but these things are all about reputation, you cannot cheat and get caught, so they killed him and took the money/deed back. Although the other people (who made bets in good faith) and had nothing to do with the fight being thrown will keep their winnings fair and square.

Once word gets out in the streets about what happened that also serves as a warning to others not to cheat.

[Scarlett45]

About the series as a whole- I think 8 episodes is too few for a streaming service. (I felt the same way about Carnival Row) I think 10 is a good number to let the plot breathe a little bit, when the episodes are long like this series 10 episodes would be perfect, if they are a bit shorter (like 45min) 12-13 would be nice.

[bijoux]

I honestly think they could have cut down the eight episodes they made. I don't feel the need for more. 

[Ohiopirate02]

13 hours ago, DearEvette said:

 

I am curious about the empty bag.  The money was gone but was the deed to the house as well?  He only staked the deed if he lost the bet.  Since he won he should not have lost the deed to the house.  So he would have gotten it back when he cashed in and got the money.  So it would be weird if the mobster dudes were the owners of the house.  And finally, the scene with Mrs. F asking about who owns the estate doesn't track for me either.   If Featherington is a lord then his estate is entailed -- unless he had the entail broken -- which would have been really rare.  They would know already who his heir is.  And since he had only daughters, his heir would also be very aware they are also next in line to inherit the estate.  Being raised to the title is a big damn deal, the new Baron (?)  would be hotfooting it to his new properties ASAP! So Mr. F could deed over the house if the house was not part of the entail, but not the entire estate. 

I think the house is part of the entail.  Lord F did not strike me as the type to have enough ready cash to purchase an extra London townhome in the "right" part of town.  The mobsters may technically be the owners of the home, but since they just murdered Lord F, they won't be collecting on that debt anytime soon.  They wanted their money back, the house is useless to them at the moment.  Admitting they own the house is tantamount to admitting to killing Lord F.

As to Lord F's heir, it could be that they did not not know who it was at that time.  If the known heir of Lord F had just passed away that year, then they could still be waiting to hear who the next heir is.  The Brits were well on their way to creating the Empire and many men from good families were living abroad especially the younger sons.  Lord and Lady F would know the general outline of his heirs, but that list could change at a moment's notice.  Once Lord F's death was known, then his solicitors would be going down the list to see who the heir is.  

[BlackberryJam]

3 hours ago, UnoAgain said:

On top of everything else.. I'm really mad at pen.. And I guess all og her defenders here saying Colin is innocent... So as to mitigate what she did a bit... And he is... He was a gentleman of standing and wealth and the Third son... A scandal while bothersome could be overcome.. He's now the brother of the duke and duchess... All that is to say.. Thanks to his gender and wealth and relationships he was somewhat protected... You know who was innocent and try put in peril... Marina's child... Who Pen put on blast as a bastard of unknown origin.. Hell even the queen herself know knows that marina thimpson's firstborn is a child of questionable  parentage with a fallen and sullied mother.. Who's been branded lower than low... Its only by grace that the child's uncle will look after him/her.. But odds are the child would  be a second class child in his/her own home.. Even to his/her sibling-cousins..and that's one of the more positive endings.. If it wasn't sir Phillip but just some guy who knew.. How would he.. Better yet his family treat that kid... So Pen crumbling into Eloise's arms after presumably writing and delivering the missive that could destroy that unborn child's life .. gives me little sympathy... As she could've spent that time telling her best friend eloise.. Who the show proved in the aftermath of said story would move mountains to help Pen.. She could've explained to Eloise what was happening... If she did feel sadness for marina.. But wanted to protect Colin more.. She could share with eloise.. Who if she didn't force Colin to listen could've told Anthony or Lady Bridgerton.. As both were at the very least apprehensive at the marriage prospect... In part because they weren't too fond of mama Featherington... 

You know who didn't care much about Marina's baby? Marina. She was just fine with aborting. (And I'm just fine with her attitude towards that. I applaud it.) But it's disingenuous to go "Oh, but what of the baby!"

[ursula]

3 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

About the series as a whole- I think 8 episodes is too few for a streaming service. (I felt the same way about Carnival Row) I think 10 is a good number to let the plot breathe a little bit, when the episodes are long like this series 10 episodes would be perfect, if they are a bit shorter (like 45min) 12-13 would be nice.

Since each episode was an hour long, I felt the 8 was ok. I really can’t think of any plot or story that needed more time. I can think of things that should have been done differently - Daphne apologizing in any of those private moments they have in episode 7, maybe a scene where Simon and Anthony reconcile - but the time was enough, imo.

8 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

You know who didn't care much about Marina's baby? Marina. She was just fine with aborting. (And I'm just fine with her attitude towards that. I applaud it.) But it's disingenuous to go "Oh, but what of the baby!"

If she was fine with aborting, that would have been her first option. That was her last resort after the scandal was exposed and the baby was condemned to grow up as a bastard. She took those steps because Penelope had ruined any chance of a decent life the baby could have.

Not sure how one can read that scene - that read as much as a suicide as an abortion - as a decision Marina took “lightly” but hey, Penelope is fat so she can’t be responsible for destroying a baby’s future. 

Edited December 29, 2020 by ursula

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, BlackberryJam said:

You know who didn't care much about Marina's baby? Marina. She was just fine with aborting. (And I'm just fine with her attitude towards that. I applaud it.) But it's disingenuous to go "Oh, but what of the baby!"

Without going too deep in the whole pro-choice debate, one could read Marina's attempt at an abortion a lot of ways.

It could be that it was a fundamentally selfish act where she wanted to get rid of an encumbrance.

It could be that she thought of the possible fate of the child where it might be better to not live at all than to have the life of a infamous bastard or to get put up for adoption.

It could be that, in the face of abandonment by her true love and public humiliation on a massive scale, she wasn't exactly thinking clearly.

If she did not care much for the baby, she could have madea second attempt at abortion, or tried adoption. That she married Phillip despite her own preference to marry for love was done at least in small part because she felt some level of care/responsibility to the baby. 

Edited December 29, 2020 by Chicago Redshirt

[ursula]

10 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

It could be that it was a fundamentally selfish act where she wanted to get rid of an encumbrance.

And I’ll dismiss this outright because this would have been her first option from the start, or from the moment she thought George was a villain. Aborting the baby after the scandal doesn’t solve any thing for her - she was still “ruined”. Pretty sure abortion was a crime, so there was that risk too if people got vindictive enough. 
 

10 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

It could be that, in the face of abandonment by her true love and public humiliation on a massive scale, she wasn'texactly thinking clearly

It’s kind of alarming how it’s accepted that Penelope can write stuff like “I hope the Duke keeps up his stamina during his honeymoon” but is fundamentally naive and prone to teenage mistakes but Marina, also a teenage girl, who has been undergoing trauma after trauma for months is assumed to be mature and level headed in all her decision making. 

Edited December 29, 2020 by ursula

[Auntie Anxiety]

3 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

If she did not care much for the baby, she could have madea second attempt at abortion, or tried adoption. That she married Phillip despite her own preference to marry for love was done at least in small part because she felt some level of care/responsibility to the baby. 

Marriage to George’s brother could even become one of happiness and/or contentment for Marina. It happens in arranged marriages all the time. If nothing else, the baby would be raised by George’s family and if Marina ended up wanting to leave to follow her own pursuits, she could leave the kid with the in-laws and know the baby was in good hands. 

They should have waited till the beginning of next season to reveal who Whistledown was. The audience would have loved thinking about the options while the show was on hiatus. On this site alone, there would be a lot of conjecture and interesting discussion.

[BlackberryJam]

33 minutes ago, ursula said:

Since each episode was an hour long, I felt the 8 was ok. I really can’t think of any plot or story that needed more time. I can think of things that should have been done differently - Daphne apologizing in any of those private moments they have in episode 7, maybe a scene where Simon and Anthony reconcile - but the time was enough, imo.

If she was fine with aborting, that would have been her first option. That was her last resort after the scandal was exposed and the baby was condemned to grow up as a bastard. She took those steps because Penelope had ruined any chance of a decent life the baby could have.

Not sure how one can read that scene - that read as much as a suicide as an abortion - as a decision Marina took “lightly” but hey, Penelope is fat so she can’t be responsible for destroying a baby’s future. 

Marina was pretty relieved when she thought her efforts had been a success. No teeth-gnashing or wailing at all. Again, I applaud this depiction of abortion, which is much more common than the, "I had an abortion and will hate myself forever!" narratives we see in most TV shows/movies. 

It was absolutely abortion, not suicide. And she couldn't have had a second go at it because she idiotically thought it was a success. (Again with women having ZERO knowledge of their bodies.) She only realized she was still pregnant when she went into labor. The doctor says to her, "tea? that never works" during the birth scene. So she's told him she thought she as aborting (not killing herself) with the tea. 

[bijoux]

I thought she felt a kick, not labor pains. She didn't have a baby when she left with Phillip, did she? 

[Scarlett45]

23 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

he only realized she was still pregnant when she went into labor. The doctor says to her, "tea? that never works" during the birth scene. So she's told him she thought she as aborting (not killing herself) with the tea. 

She didnt go into labor- she felt the fetus move, she hadn't given birth when she left with George's brother (she wasn't even showing very much to my eye).

 

9 minutes ago, bijoux said:

I thought she felt a kick, not labor pains. She didn't have a baby when she left with Phillip, did she? 

Yup yup thats right. 

[ursula]

23 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

Marina was pretty relieved when she thought her efforts had been a success. No teeth-gnashing or wailing at all. Again, I applaud this depiction of abortion, which is much more common than the, "I had an abortion and will hate myself forever!" narratives we see in most TV shows/movies. 

She was relieved that she wasn’t bringing a child into the world to be ostracized thanks to Penelope. It was still her last resort. It was still an option she tried to avoid - and option she didn’t take again after Sir Phillip asked to marry her, even though she didn’t want him. 

[DearEvette]

24 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

It was absolutely abortion, not suicide. And she couldn't have had a second go at it because she idiotically thought it was a success. (Again with women having ZERO knowledge of their bodies.) She only realized she was still pregnant when she went into labor. The doctor says to her, "tea? that never works" during the birth scene. So she's told him she thought she as aborting (not killing herself) with the tea. 

Oh I meant to comment on this but I completely forgot.  So much has been made about the women (Daphne, Penelope, Eloise) not knowing about anything about sex and their bodies, but because Marina got pregnant her lack of knowledge has been absolutely absent from that conversation.  And yet, her conviction that she was no longer pregnant despite to absence of clear signs of an abortion (blood, cramps etc.) makes it clear that even though she was pregnant she was still pretty clueless as well.  I mean, Daphne is boinking her husband all over creation and on every surface imaginable and even she still had no clue about some basic stuff.

[ursula]

7 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

She didnt go into labor- she felt the fetus move, she hadn't given birth when she left with George's brother (she wasn't even showing very much to my eye).

Marina was 2-3 months pregnant by the time she planned to elope with George. Rewatching the episode, Mrs F clocks that she has 6-7 months left before the baby is born. It also ties with her missed period in the 1st episode, and having stayed with the Fs long enough for Mrs F and the servants to know she wasn’t having “courses”.

[Scarlett45]

4 minutes ago, ursula said:

Marina was 2-3 months pregnant by the time she planned to elope with George. Rewatching the episode, Mrs F clocks that she has 6-7 months left before the baby is born. It also ties with her missed period in the 1st episode, and having stayed with the Fs long enough for Mrs F and the servants to know she wasn’t having “courses”.

Right, so she is maybe 20-25 weeks when the season ends and she accepts George's brother's proposal? But she didnt have the baby.

[RachelKM]

17 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

Marina was pretty relieved when she thought her efforts had been a success. No teeth-gnashing or wailing at all. Again, I applaud this depiction of abortion, which is much more common than the, "I had an abortion and will hate myself forever!" narratives we see in most TV shows/movies. 

 

That's what I saw as well.  And abortion in that time was not simply about how you viewed your pregnancy in terms of the life of the baby. People in this era were raised with the notion that abortion was a mortal sin from which you could not be redeemed.  So, waiting first for George then selecting a dupe would be preferable.  No to mention ALL forms of abortion at that time came with life threatening potential (as was indicated).  

And yes.  She didn't seem particularly devastated or even particularly upset when she thought she was successful. She was more apparently devastated by her belief in George's abandonment.  As you say, I don't fault her for this.  She didn't intend to become pregnant and it was literally ruining her future.

7 minutes ago, bijoux said:

I thought she felt a kick, not labor pains. She didn't have a baby when she left with Phillip, did she? 

That was my understanding as well.  She was still in the first 6 months of her pregnancy.  She left with Sir Philip on or before the season's end.  The season was only 5 or 6 months long.  And that would have included reaching out to Sir Philip after realizing she was still pregnant.

1 minute ago, ursula said:

She was relieved that she wasn’t bringing a child into the world to be ostracized thanks to Penelope. It was still her last resort. It was still an option she tried to avoid - and option she didn’t take again after Sir Phillip asked to marry her, even though she didn’t want him. 

That is speculation as much as anything.  But she still didn't seem all that emotional about the choice.  As noted, it would be a last resort under most circumstance for both religious and safety reasons. And marrying Sir Phillip, a nice man with honor, was a least as good an option as marrying Colin. It was actually better since he knew she was pregnant and accepted it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not crediting Penelope with the fact that it actually worked out better for Marina than her own plan and in fact was the best possible outcome absent someone getting word to George in time for him to sell out and marry her before dying. Penelope didn't know it would work out and she did it anyway.  So, she doesn't get that as an excuse.  She made a decision to sacrifice Marina for Colin.  She did what she did.

Also, please don't accuse everyone taking up for Penelope with "she's fat so it's fine."  That is definitely not my interpretation or motivation.  I may have affection for the character from the book.  But I'm not blind to the fact that she did something extreme with harsh consequences for many people, including herself but mostly for Marina and her baby. I'm just not incline to ascribe malice, jealousy, or indifference to Marina's plight to her motives.  And she had fewer options than people seem to think.

 

8 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

Oh I meant to comment on this but I completely forgot.  So much has been made about the women (Daphne, Penelope, Eloise) not knowing about anything about sex and their bodies, but because Marina got pregnant her lack of knowledge has been absolutely absent from that conversation.  And yet, her conviction that she was no longer pregnant despite to absence of clear signs of an abortion (blood, cramps etc.) makes it clear that even though she was pregnant she was still pretty clueless as well.  I mean, Daphne is boinking her husband all over creation and on every surface imaginable and even she still had no clue about some basic stuff.

Oh, certainly.  Marina would likely have been as un/under-informed about sex, pregnancy, and her own body as any of the other unmarried ladies of their class. I don't fault her for her pregnancy and even understand her choice of Colin.  I just understand Penelope and Colin's perspectives too.

 

[Ohiopirate02]

15 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

That's what I saw as well.  And abortion in that time was not simply about how you viewed your pregnancy in terms of the life of the baby. People in this era were raised with the notion that abortion was a mortal sin from which you could not be redeemed.  So, waiting first for George then selecting a dupe would be preferable.  No to mention ALL forms of abortion at that time came with life threatening potential (as was indicated).  

 

First trimester abortions were legal in Regency England.  The whole "life begins at conception" train of thought is a 20th century invention.  People during this time did not believe a woman was really carrying a life until they felt it move or "quicken."  Women would suspect they were pregnant, but nothing was definite until they felt the baby move.  Even today miscarriages happen in the first few months and we have better medicine and nutrition.  

There was still risk involved with taking the herbal concoctions or procedures done by midwives and doctors, but Marina had time to find someone skilled enough to safely abort.