S01.E06: Swish

[Roseanna]

On 12/31/2020 at 1:17 PM, ursula said:

A bit higher functioning than subconscious since she tells him “why do you think I went into that garden?” When he stopped the first kiss, she grabbed his face and kissed him back and they both went at it. Both of them were carried away. She did not know the ins and outs of sex, but she knew she was in a “compromising situation” for their times and norms. As she told her brother in the next episode, it was “mutual defilement” - her experience didn’t  infantilize her.

It's not infantilizing her to say that how much Daphne *wanted* Simon, she had no *knowledge* about sex and its consequences and there was a huge gap between experience and thus responsibility between her and Simon. Whether she was legally of age or not, they weren't equal and thus her "consent" was null and void like in the relationship between a teenager girl and an adult man today.

In addition, as Simon *knew* that he couldn't marry her, he didn't act like a honorable man, 

 

[Roseanna]

On 1/2/2021 at 8:26 PM, Katsullivan said:

His reasons behind his choice to not have kids are definitely fucked up, but that was still his choice, and everyone's choice should be respected, not just Daphne's.

They weren't equal. He had all the power and she had none. The only thing that restricted him was the code of acting honorably and that he violated.

She had only one choice in life: to accept or refuse a suitor (and even in this only choice her brother, as his guardian, tried to force her do his will). After the marriage she was no more a person ("husband and wife are one and husband is the one"), she didn't own her body nor her property, had no rights to her children and if she eloped, her husband could come to fetch her home.  

Spoiler

The writer would have made the story much more sensible if Simon had refused to have children because he would have been afraid that they would have inherit his stammer and he wouldn't wanted to have them suffer as he did.  But this theme is used only in the epilogue of the novel.

 

[Katsullivan]

6 hours ago, Roseanna said:

They weren't equal. He had all the power and she had none. The only thing that restricted him was the code of acting honorably and that he violated.

She had only one choice in life: to accept or refuse a suitor (and even in this only choice her brother, as his guardian, tried to force her do his will). After the marriage she was no more a person ("husband and wife are one and husband is the one"), she didn't own her body nor her property, had no rights to her children and if she eloped, her husband could come to fetch her home.  

It's not Simon's fault that they live in a society with fucked up rules. For a Regency man, he is forward thinking. He refused her dowry, he asked for consent before having sex. After their disagreement, he has the right to keep her in an unhappy marriage and even demand sex but he chooses instead to physically separate from her while letting her keep with the title and comfort of her status. They might not be equal by the law, but he treated her as an equal, and always respected her choices. Daphne is the partner who disrespects choices. He says he doesn't want to marry her, she tricks him into marriage. He tells her he can't have children, she finds out that he doesn't want to have children, and she tries to trick him into getting her pregnant. From a religious point of view, yes he broke a vow to God to have children, but he never promised Daphne children so he wasn't breaking a vow to her. Her insistence that they can't be happily married without children after telling him they can is an emotional betrayal, especially as being loved for being less than perfect is a big deal for Simon. I don't see how he violated the code by his personal vow to his father because he made it for fucked up reasons, it was something he did long before he met her, based on abuse that happened to him. In fact, it's only when Daphne stops making everything about her, and starts trying to understand his trauma, that their relationship is able to heal.

I want to be clear that I'm not saying that Simon didn't do anything wrong or that Daphne is bad or evil. Neither of them are perfect, they both hurt and betrayed each other on different levels. Unfortunately, there's more emphasis on Daphne's feelings and Simon's mistakes than vice versa, so it looks like he's the only one at fault when it's actually both of them. 

Edited January 4, 2021 by Katsullivan

[Growsonwalls]

I don't think Daphne "tricked" him into marriage. Simon followed her into the garden and initiated physical contact with her. Anthony saw them and insisted on a duel. Daphne made the sensible decision that marriage is not as bad as death. 

I mean, I think the code of conduct for men and women was so limiting at the time that you can't blame Daphne more making this decision. She didn't want to see either her brother or Simon dead. 

[Roseanna]

29 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

I don't think Daphne "tricked" him into marriage. Simon followed her into the garden and initiated physical contact with her. Anthony saw them and insisted on a duel. Daphne made the sensible decision that marriage is not as bad as death. 

I mean, I think the code of conduct for men and women was so limiting at the time that you can't blame Daphne more making this decision. She didn't want to see either her brother or Simon dead. 

I agree.

As a man of honor Simon should have agreed to marry with Daphne after compromising her. Instead he decided rather to die although it meant leaving her reputation ruined and forcing her brother to flee from the country to avoid the punishment of the duel and living the rest of his life with the death of his friend on his conscience.

[Katsullivan]

1 hour ago, Growsonwalls said:

I don't think Daphne "tricked" him into marriage. Simon followed her into the garden and initiated physical contact with her. Anthony saw them and insisted on a duel. Daphne made the sensible decision that marriage is not as bad as death. 

I was talking about after the duel, when she tells her brothers that they've agreed to marry after Simon told her he wasn't going to. She forced his hand. Later on, the Prince gives her an out when he asks her if she's being forced and she slips and says she's the one forcing Simon. Even later, the Queen herself tells Daphne to choose who she wants and she chooses Simon. She gets all these chances to stop the marriage, but she pushes on, all the while thinking that Simon doesn't want to marry her, and resents her for making him. What happened in the garden would have only ruined her if Simon had admitted it, the way Nigel tried to force her into marrying him. Anthony asked for the duel because of male pride, and because he wanted to escape his life, either as a fugitive with Sienna or as a dead man. As a sidenote, this is where I thought the necklace would play a role, and Cressida could use it as "evidence" of what happened, but it never comes up again. Who would believe the word of a jealous rival against a future Princess? People might wonder but unless Daphne had a brown baby 9 months later, they'd quickly move on to the next juicy gossip. Maybe trick isn't the right word, but Daphne admits she trapped him into marrying her. 

 

Edited January 4, 2021 by Katsullivan

[Ohiopirate02]

1 minute ago, Katsullivan said:

I was talking about after the duel, when she tells her brothers that they've agreed to marry after Simon told her he wasn't going to. She forced his hand. Later on, the Prince gives her an out when he asks her if she's being forced and she slips and says she's the one forcing Simon. Even later, the Queen herself tells Daphne to choose who she wants and she chooses Simon. She gets all these chances to stop the marriage, but she pushes on, all the while thinking that Simon doesn't want to marry her, and resents her for making him.What happened in the garden would have only ruined her if Simon had admitted it, the way Nigel tried to force her into marrying him. Anthony asked for the duel because of male pride, and because he wanted to escape his life, either as a fugitive with Sienna or as a dead man. As a sidenote, this is where I thought the necklace would play a role, and Cressida could use it as "evidence" of what happened, but it never comes up again. 

 

Anthony demanded the duel because Simon wounded the Bridgerton's honor as a family.  Daphne being ruined by Simon has implications on her younger sisters' futures as well as hers.  Anthony wasn't acting out of pride or because he had a death wish.  He caught his friend and his sister in a compromising situation and honor demanded Simon propose.  Simon refused, and the next step was a duel.  Simon did take advantage of Daphne in the garden.  It doesn't matter how much Daphne wanted Simon, he knew he did not want to marry her, yet he still followed her.  He royally f'ed up in that situation and Anthony caught him.  For a man who never plans on getting married and siring legitimate heirs, he had no business following Daphne.  

[chaifan]

15 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

I don't think Daphne "tricked" him into marriage. Simon followed her into the garden and initiated physical contact with her. Anthony saw them and insisted on a duel. Daphne made the sensible decision that marriage is not as bad as death. 

I mean, I think the code of conduct for men and women was so limiting at the time that you can't blame Daphne more making this decision. She didn't want to see either her brother or Simon dead. 

I agree. And also don't forget, duels were illegal.  So one would be dead and the other in jail or would have to flee the country.  Which I think Anthony even mentioned he was going to have to do.  Simon put Daphne in an impossible spot - watch him be shot by her own brother and die and have her brother flee the country, or declare they were getting married.  And as they played out the duel scene it was obvious Simon was refusing to shoot, so would Anthony really have shot him like that?  I think not.  So that would leave Simon alive, Daphne "ruined", which in turn ruins all the other sisters for marriage prospects.   Daphne may have made stupid decisions (going into the garden alone, kissing Simon back, nearly having sex where others could obviously see, etc.) but she really had no other option as to this decision.  It certainly was no "trick" at that time.  She took him at his word, or what she thought his word meant - he "can't" have children - and accepted that as a term of the marriage.  (What she did later is a whole other discussion, and I've already posted my opinion on that.)

[Katsullivan]

I agree that Simon should never have followed her into the garden. I go further back and say he should not have come to that party, and stuck to his guns and left England that night. But it's not the same situation like with Nigel where Daphne was sacrificing herself for her family's sake. She wanted to marry Simon, and she didn't take any of the opportunities the Prince, then the Queen offer her to get out of the marriage, and keep her family's reputation intact. It's because she did this while thinking that Simon didn't want her, and she's dragging him to the altar, that I say she disrespected his choice. 

Edited January 4, 2021 by Katsullivan

[nodorothyparker]

The whole "we can't cop to how we feel about each other, so we'll both force the issue" is another romance trope, and so here we are as both characters later admitted that was the case in their big "I burn for you" scene. As a man, Simon has a lot more freedom of movement and choices. If he was truly adamant that he would NOT marry, then he needed to stay the hell away from her and not be following her into secluded gardens where what happened happened. As a man of this society, he knows full well what the consequences are, particularly for her. As a respectable unmarried woman of this society, Daphne isn't supposed to pursue a man. She can either accept or reject a marriage either properly proposed or thrust upon her as in this case and that's about it. Regardless of how it ended, Daphne fled to the garden alone. Simon followed her. If they're caught, oh well, everyone already knows Simon's a rake and what can you do? But now Daphne's a whore and no longer respectable wife material.

When the duel happened, I initially thought maybe Daphne was throwing the reveal that "Cressida saw us" into the mix to try to up the stakes in forcing his hand since we never actually saw her, but next episode nope, there she was dangling that bit of information over Daphne's head. If Simon had chosen to get himself killed in that duel or otherwise shirk the responsibility, does anyone seriously think Cressida wouldn't have been hotfooting it to throw that particular accusation around to nuke any possible engagement Daphne might still try to make with the prince to throw off the gossips? (That is how Scarlett O'Hara ended up with her first husband, after all.)

[Katsullivan]

This is where I thought the necklace would be relevant, because Cressida could have used it as proof. But it weirdly never comes up again! The Prince asked Daphne if she was being forced into marriage so it seemed like if he knew the truth, he won't care and he'd marry her anyway if she wanted him. The Queen didn't want to "lose". Without the necklace, it would have been Cressida's word against everyone else's because Simon won't have collaborated the rumor, which was the problem with Nigel since he was the one that would go about spreading it. 

[Quiet1]

Of course having honest communication would be the ideal, but then there would be no story to tell.  Daphne changed positions, which is very normal to do. Being an equal partner in the love making it is her right to do as well. Simon very easily could have changed their positions as well and taken charge back. As seen by his boxing, he is very fit and agile and he could have just kept rolling them or maneuvered them to his liking, if he was so inclined. He has plenty of experience. Telling a woman to "wait" while she is in the middle of an orgasm is like telling a man to wait in the middle of ejaculation.  Not going to happen. Daphne had her suspicions but she was truly disappointed and saddened to realize her husband had deceived her. Since the pull out method doesn't work, there is really no way to tell which time they had sex got her pregnant.

If Simon really never wanted to have children, he should have told her that he had taken a vow and there would not be penis penetration until menopause but he would pleasure her in other ways until then, and followed through.

[Growsonwalls]

I agree, it's likely the way things were going that Daphne would have ended up pregnant anyway since withdrawal is a shitty way to prevent babies. Since they had an extremely active sex life Simon's pull-out game was going to fail -- a matter of when, not if.

I think what caused the estrangement with Simon was Daphne's behavior post-non-withdrawal sex. She was very confrontational and hostile towards Simon, instead of being like "oops, didn't know we could do that." She basically picked a huge fight with him the moment after he nutted in her. 

[MartyQui]

On 1/2/2021 at 1:49 PM, ursula said:

And the next morning, she insists she's not hungover while her housekeeper just pretends to agree with her as she prepares the hungover tea. 

Not even hangover tea...raw eggs and garlic!  That would have sent me straight to the vomitorium.

[Roseanna]

12 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

IShe gets all these chances to stop the marriage, but she pushes on, all the while thinking that Simon doesn't want to marry her, and resents her for making him.

The crux of the matter was not whether Simon wanted to marry her or not. If he were a man of honor, it's his duty to do it.

In Austen's Persuasion Captain Wentworth has only flirted with Louisa, but when she falls and all suppose they have mutual affection, he decides that if she is in love with him, he is bound by his honor and must propose to her although he has just noticed that he is in love with Anne.    

[WatchrTina]

I'm late to this conversation so I'll just add that the position we see Daphne in (on her bed, immediately following the controversial sex scene) is the position that women with fertility problems are told to assume following intercourse. I've seen that knees-to-the-chest posture (usually with a pillow under the hips) shown on TV when the character is hoping to get pregnant.  I recall one show where the loving husband would read to his wife during the half-hour that she remained in that position.

Daphne, of course, is not very knowledgeable about fertility and I doubt the chat with the maid went into THAT much detail. but it is plausible to me that Daphne adopted that posture instinctively based on what she learned from the maid.

[tennisgurl]

Not gonna lie, this is the episode that I heard all about before I started watching the show. Specifically, what happened between Daphne and Simon and whether or not what Daphne did was rape and who was the "bad guy" in the situation. After having read this thread its clear that this discussion has been just about talked to death, but my two cents? Neither of them came off well at all, they both ended up looking like total assholes. Simon lying about why he wont have children and making Daphne think that it was something that he couldn't do, not that it was something he just didn't want, taking advantage of her lack of knowledge about how babies are made is seriously a dick move. Yes I do think he lied, even if its a "from a certain point of view" kind of lie, he was not honest with her and while I don't think that he wanted to hurt her he has lied to her and that's terribly unfair. She was even alright with not having kids, even though she wants them, and just being happy with Simon and being a cool aunt to her siblings future children when she thought that Simon just could not biologically have kids, and he was totally happy to let her go on thinking that for as long as possible. Daphne on the other hand, absolutely violated her husband physically and emotionally, and even if people of that time might not consider what she did rape (Daphne just figured out what sex even is) I would say it absolutely was, and "testing" Simon to see what was what or being angry is no excuse for doing something that, even if she didn't realize that it was a violation (when someone wants their partner to stop in the middle of sex and they keep going, its rape, no matter if they had previously consented or what the genders are) he was clearly in pain as she stayed on him, and that is very messed up. 

In the other plot, I laughed at Anthony being like "why didn't I take you to the brothels when you left school?" when he found out about his engagement. Its like grad school, but with more STDs. Now that Anthony is taking his duties as head of house seriously, he must have a constant stress headache, trying to keep his siblings on track, wanting them to be happy while also keeping a good place in society. Its like herding a bunch of well dressed cats. He looked so pissed all throughout the dinner with Mariana and the Featheringtons, especially when he kept reminding Mrs. F how young Colin is and how quick this is moving. Big brother work is hard, and he hasn't even gotten to trying to find a husband for Eloise, or found out about Benedicts dalliances with the bohemians yet. Mariana is certainly in a bad spot, but I am finding her position less understandable. If she was really as desperate as she claims, so much that she is willing to lie to and manipulate a sweet guy to marry her, she would have married the rich guy. 

[shapeshifter]

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Mariana is certainly in a bad spot, but I am finding her position less understandable. If she was really as desperate as she claims, so much that she is willing to lie to and manipulate a sweet guy to marry her, she would have married the rich guy. 

Collin is a rich guy too. 

[MartyQui]

Just thinking about the title of the episode, and the "swish"...was Lady Featherington checking to see if Marina "showed" when she moved around?  I have to think so, she must be almost four months along by now.

[SeanC]

Well, at least after this episode the servants aren't going to have to clean up the Duke's ejaculate from various and sundry locations on the grounds and furniture.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

So I finally watched this episode and at the end of the day, I felt like it was written with enough ambiguity that IMO it doesn't fit the definition of non-consensual sex but also it is valid to criticize Daphne for handling this pretty badly. Simon was pretty enthusiastically participating through all of it and doesn't even really tell her to stop but also, Daphne was withholding her reasons for wanting to engage in sexual activity in that way.  So she wasn't being honest in that encounter, though I suppose she felt that was the case with Simon in every single one of their encounters - he was also not being honest with her.

In short, it's a bad moment for them as a couple - one that would be solved by simple communication - but not in my view an issue of assault.

I also think it is no coincidence that the episode's parallel storyline - Marina and Colin - was also about people withholding information necessary for informed consent about a major life decision.  Marina was omitting information that was kind of important for Colin to know before they married. Simon was not forthcoming about his relationship with his father and about the reason he "couldn't" have children. Both attempts to withhold critical information blew up spectacularly.  

 

Edited January 10, 2021 by eleanorofaquitaine

[shapeshifter]

5 hours ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

So I finally watched this episode and at the end of the day, I felt like it was written with enough ambiguity that IMO it doesn't fit the definition of non-consensual sex but also it is valid to criticize Daphne for handling this pretty badly. Simon was pretty enthusiastically participating through all of it and doesn't even really tell her to stop but also, Daphne was withholding her reasons for wanting to engage in sexual activity in that way.  So she wasn't being honest in that encounter, though I suppose she felt that was the case with Simon in every single one of their encounters - he was also not being honest with her.

In short, it's a bad moment for them as a couple - one that would be solved by simple communication - but not in my view an issue of assault.

I also think it is no coincidence that the episode's parallel storyline - Marina and Colin - was also about people withholding information necessary for informed consent about a major life decision.  Marina was not omitting information that was kind of important for Colin to know before they married. Simon was not forthcoming about his relationship with his father and about the reason he "couldn't" have children. Both attempts to withhold critical information blew up spectacularly.  

 

That's how I saw it too.

[TV Diva Queen]

On 12/27/2020 at 9:16 PM, toomuchtv said:

I

edited to remove my comment, I quoted to soon, something I try to NOT do for this very reason.  

Edited January 13, 2021 by TV Diva Queen

[iwantcookies]

Colin would not have married Marina knowing she is pregnant. In real life men don’t want their own kids much less someone else’s. Rolled my eyes. 

So much sex it’s like HBO.

I really should read the book. 

[SoWindsor]

On 12/26/2020 at 1:31 AM, Door County Cherry said:

Simon and Daphne had some chemistry earlier in the series but once they got down to fuck, it didn't really do much for me.  And there were so many sex scenes too.  

I feel exactly the same! What happened? But I guess that happens often in series where once the couple gets together and all the sexual tension is gone, it gets boring.

[shapeshifter]

On 1/13/2021 at 12:46 PM, iwantcookies said:

Colin would not have married Marina knowing she is pregnant. In real life men don’t want their own kids much less someone else’s.

I've known quite a few husbands who have supportively reared their wives children from other men, but I do agree that it's not something to expect from the average guy.

But now I'm wondering if there was anything for Colin to have gained from having a "ready made family." If he was a first-born, it would have guaranteed him a linage -- but that could have become really awkward if she had another son from Colin who was no longer "first born." Would the "real" first born have achieved that status? Sounds like a very complicated plot, indeed!
But Colin was *not* a first born.
OTOH, if all of Colin's brothers died...

And, yes, I'm available if the writers want me to spit ball some ideas. 😉

Edited January 16, 2021 by shapeshifter

[shoetingstar]

I found the Sexcapades with Simon to be unnecessary overdone. The last Daphne and Simon scene and the issues of consent have already been discussed ad nauseam.  Thank you to the person who reminded us that he had that stuttering problem, and it may have reared it's ugly head while he was upset. Honestly, when she said that Simon knew marriage and children were ALL she wanted. I don't believe it - they don't communicate enough for that to have been expressed. So yeah, they both are assholes to me. His lie came back to bite him. And she should have stopped when he said "Wait."

I was enjoying her interactions with the towns people and it was the first time I saw her doing something unselfish (outside her family's future). She was actually given a personality beyond, "I have to marry." I wished we saw this side of her earlier.

I really feel bad for Marina and for Penelope. Unrequited Love is horrible and I think she genuinely thought of Colin's welfare as well. However, her spiteful side was crowding out the bigger picture of her family's future. I think if she knew that they were in a bad financial state she would have been more accommodating, perhaps. Marina was harsh but I really think it was a case of ripping off the bandage in one swoop. The real villain is the strict, rigid, completely unforgiving societal rules that were presented as "right" but were really about Men ruling according to their own whims, contradictions and all. Whether I like the characters are their choices, they are all victims or at least stifled because they are not allowed to be individuals. 

So who told Whistledown? Who else even knew and also didn't mind ruining the Featheringtons? Penelope crying to Eloise might be a red herring...

On a casting note: I really hate that the one other black character in a major role is the unwed pregnant girl who ruins everyone's life. It's an interesting choice. 

Also, I really wish they would give Anthony something else to do besides the Bridgerton Marriage Ogre.

On 12/27/2020 at 11:46 PM, katha said:

In the moment when traumatic and distressing things are happening, people can also freeze up and become overwhelmed by the situation. The actor portrays Simon as in shock, so much so that he regresses to the stutter from his abusive childhood. So it is clearly portrayed as an extremely disturbing event for him. And he's left reeling by the end. His body language around Daphne also changes after that, as if he is constantly wating for her to do something again and walking on eggshells around her.

So some of the writing and the acting doesn't treat it as a joke. But then the script doesn't want to properly acknowledge it either. It's just an endless trainwreck. Another factor is that Regé-Jean Page just gives a superior performance to Phoebe Dynevor IMO, often transcending the writing. So while Daphne sort of stays this cartoon character who does something bad without giving her layers (that the script also denies her, of course), Simon has a more three-dimensional reaction to what is happening around him and to him, probably exceeding what the script wants to give him.

Completely agree with this!

 

Edited January 17, 2021 by shoetingstar

[Roseanna]

8 hours ago, shoetingstar said:

And she should have stopped when he said "Wait."

If he wanted her to stop, he should have said "stop" or "don't" or "I don't want".

Instead, one must be a mind-reader if one interprets "wait" to mean "stop" and not f.ex. "slow down, I am not ready". Or else the speaker is too fearful or polite to say directly what he/she wants or not.   

[shapeshifter]

3 hours ago, Roseanna said:

If he wanted her to stop, he should have said "stop" or "don't" or "I don't want".

Instead, one must be a mind-reader if one interprets "wait" to mean "stop" and not f.ex. "slow down, I am not ready". Or else the speaker is too fearful or polite to say directly what he/she wants or not.   

I think this is a good point, but, based upon most reactions above, the writers’ choice to not have Simon say “Stop!” (instead of “wait”) did not stop much of the audience from seeing physically delicate little Daphne as a rapist of her tall and brawny husband (although I didn’t see it like that). 
Nevertheless, considering @katha’s comment above, perhaps Simon did not trust himself to enunciate the 2-letter blend of STop ––or just couldn’t enunciate it–– at that heated and surprising moment. 
Forgive me for seemingly relitigating this case yet again. I just thought that the stuttering background as a communication problem during sex was interesting. 

[peachmangosteen]

I feel like 'wait' means stop though lol. If you hear someone say 'wait' during sex, maybe just stop so you can get clarification.

[Growsonwalls]

I think Simon has enough of a speech impediment that he might have trouble articulating "no" in that moment. But Daphne wouldn't know that -- we never saw Simon explaining to Daphne that he has a speech impediment or the effect it has on his communication.

[shoetingstar]

13 hours ago, Roseanna said:

If he wanted her to stop, he should have said "stop" or "don't" or "I don't want".

Instead, one must be a mind-reader if one interprets "wait" to mean "stop" and not f.ex. "slow down, I am not ready". Or else the speaker is too fearful or polite to say directly what he/she wants or not.   

If you are looking at your partner, and can see they are in distress and they say "Wait, wait Y/N". I think that's a huge clue the person is having trouble of some kind. It wasn't just the language, but his facial expressions and body language. Daphne did not have the motives of a rapist, but people concerned with this are not pulling this out of thin air.

In any case, she suspected Simon had taken something from her (her dream of children), so she tested her theory by taking what she thought was owed her, his seed. 

7 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

I feel like 'wait' means stop though lol. If you hear someone say 'wait' during sex, maybe just stop so you can get clarification.

Agreed.

Edited January 17, 2021 by shoetingstar

[Growsonwalls]

I feel like one of the issues with that scene is that Rege Jean Page is simply a more expressive actor than Phoebe Dynevor. Page really emoted the hell out of that scene, and viewers felt everything -- the speech impediment that made him unable to speak up, the betrayal that his sweet adoring wife had planned that "gotcha" moment, the horror that Daphne could be pregnant. Phoebe Dynevor's acting is more basic -- she has one emotional pitch during the scene and it's outrage that Simon can, after all, finish in her. 

 

[katha]

2 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

I feel like one of the issues with that scene is that Rege Jean Page is simply a more expressive actor than Phoebe Dynevor. Page really emoted the hell out of that scene, and viewers felt everything -- the speech impediment that made him unable to speak up, the betrayal that his sweet adoring wife had planned that "gotcha" moment, the horror that Daphne could be pregnant. Phoebe Dynevor's acting is more basic -- she has one emotional pitch during the scene and it's outrage that Simon can, after all, finish in her. 

 

Yeah, IMO Page just delivered an all-around excellent performance and the great positive response to him bears that out. The character is tropey and it's all romance novel formula and of course he's really handsome, so there's that as well LOL. But he managed to elevate the material beyond what was in the script with his performance choices and his charisma.

Dynevor is also really harmstrung by the one-note script and for me doesn't manage to rise beyond that to that extent. And so you also have the dichotomy in the scene of a three-dimensional response from him to a two-dimensional action from her, which piles on an already problematic, terribly written scene. Dynevor has stronger moments in the series, some in the last two episodes. But IMO overall her Daphne isn't as vibrant as in the book, while Page's Simon outstrips the book character. So that's also something that plays into the resonse towards their characters overall, I feel.

[Roseanna]

On 1/17/2021 at 4:57 PM, peachmangosteen said:

I feel like 'wait' means stop though lol. If you hear someone say 'wait' during sex, maybe just stop so you can get clarification.

...if you live in the 2000ies.

But 200 years ago, if a partner resisted, one was supposed to make a difference if resistance was only for modesty's sake or it if it was "real". 

If you want to write a such story, why place it in the age where people's behavior and morality were different?  

[janie jones]

3 hours ago, Roseanna said:

...if you live in the 2000ies.

But 200 years ago, if a partner resisted, one was supposed to make a difference if resistance was only for modesty's sake or it if it was "real". 

If you want to write a such story, why place it in the age where people's behavior and morality were different?  

I don't know. I'm having trouble thinking of a situation where "wait" doesn't mean "stop, at least for a minute" (other than the "wait for the bus" sense, which no one would think was what was intended here). If you're leaving the room, if you're pouring someone a drink, if you're about to put something in the oven. Hell, you can say "catch!" then toss something to someone, then yell "wait" while it's in the air, and they'd hesitate or even jump out of the way. If you say "wait" in the car, the driver is likely to slam on the brakes or at least take their foot of the gas. If someone has already put something in the oven and you yell "wait," they'll think they need to take it out.

I'm not wanting to join the debate over who was in the wrong here, but "wait" very clearly means "stop or pause what you're doing," to me.

[Door County Cherry]

4 hours ago, Roseanna said:

...if you live in the 2000ies.

But 200 years ago, if a partner resisted, one was supposed to make a difference if resistance was only for modesty's sake or it if it was "real". 

If you want to write a such story, why place it in the age where people's behavior and morality were different?  

But this is a fantasy written for the sensibilities of 2020/2021 viewers even if it's based in an earlier time period. The  historical romance genre has always been a combo of both-- using the strict rules of days gone by to create build up and tension to meet the fantasies of a modern day woman/reader.

So while I do think a discussion is valuable, I don't think historical accuracy has ever been the goal of this show or the author.

Spoiler

In fact, they changed it from the book which tells me the goal was to make less problematic. 

 

[ouinason]

I think the fact that there is a debate is probably the point.  There have been so many conversations about what consent is, how it applies, and how to interpret it over the last however many years, and yet it's still a question sometimes.  You can love someone and still get this wrong, and it's important to know that not all issues of consent are "good guy, bad guy" situations.  It's messy, and muddles, and will probably be a conversation that needs to be had for a good long time to come.

[Quiet1]

Simon could have easily raised up, put his hand on the back of Daphne's head and rolled them over to pull out. He is very fit, if Daphne could roll them over, he surely could as well. 

Simon lied to Daphne and told her that he COULDN"T have children. Sperm comes out even before climax so he could have gotten her pregnant any time they had sex. So he was potentially "stealing her egg" every time, he was raping her I guess. She wanted children but maybe not that early in their marriage. 

[LilJen]

On 1/4/2021 at 12:27 AM, Enginerd said:

Definitely. What she did was not right at all. Although her anger at his deception was justified, that was not the way to address it. Simon was also right to be mad when he found out she did this on purpose, although if he really wanted to stop, he should have said so. I myself thought his behavior during the scene indicated "this is hot; let's keep going; to hell with my stupid revenge plan". 

Also, to be indelicate, he doesn't seem to last long, does he? All these quickies with like two seconds of foreplay. How has Daphne been enjoying most of their encounters?

Well, to be fair (and equally indelicate) Daphne appears to reach orgasm in about five seconds, with little effort on Simon’s part, so. . .  They’re a good match?

 

[Enginerd]

3 hours ago, LilJen said:

Well, to be fair (and equally indelicate) Daphne appears to reach orgasm in about five seconds, with little effort on Simon’s part, so. . .  They’re a good match?

They're very efficient. Saves a lot of time, which they can put to use wandering the house and grounds and having sex again in new places. (Those poor servants...)

[Roseanna]

On 1/19/2021 at 4:07 AM, Door County Cherry said:

But this is a fantasy written for the sensibilities of 2020/2021 viewers even if it's based in an earlier time period. The  historical romance genre has always been a combo of both-- using the strict rules of days gone by to create build up and tension to meet the fantasies of a modern day woman/reader.

The problem to me is that "a rake and a virgin" is old-fashioned, even amoral because its double standard for men and women.

There are enough periods for historical fantasy where woman can be freer and more active.     

[Katsullivan]

Daphne is 21.

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Simon is much older, much more experienced, and he lied to and deceived his much younger bride.  He did that knowingly. 

I will always remain confused how Simon's decision not to immediately disclose years of psychological abuse to her became equivalent to lying. He always made it clear that he couldn't have children. If he had promised Daphne the opposite or at least given her the impression that their "conjugal efforts" would lead to childbirth, then this would be a lie. Not explaining the details of not having the children is just that - not giving her all the information. Lying means giving her false information.

This insistence always feels like victim-blaming to me. A way to frame what Daphne did as "justified" because Simon "deserved it." 

Spoiler

I will also remain confused at the showrunner's insistence on keeping the rape from the books, but putting more focus/sympathy on Daphne's side, and not Simon's trauma that even makes him start stuttering again. I don't know what to make of the choice to essentially vindicate the rapist.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I also seriously don't like the word "rape" being used here.  It cheapens what rape is, and we have enough of that in the world as it is.

If anything, we don't have enough of instances of rape being actually called rape in the world. From Whoopi Goldberg declaring that statutory rape is not "rape rape" to people arguing that women can't technically rape men, to #metoo showing that systematic, institutional sexual assault was overlooked for decades because it was just part of showbusiness. I mean, the statistics alone of rape convictions are there. 

To me, it's as simple as this - rape is sex without consent. Regardless of Daphne's age or rage, there was a point in that act where her sexual partner withdrew his consent - she knew he withdrew his consent - and she refused to stop. 

I dunno. I try not to opine too much on this topic, because it's one of those things I don't like arguing about, you know? Discussing it makes it seem like non-consensual sex being rape is a subjective judgment  based on scenarios. 

 

Edited January 23, 2021 by Katsullivan

[peachmangosteen]

4 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

If anything, we don't have enough of instances of rape being actually called rape in the world. From Whoopi Goldberg declaring that statutory rape is not "rape rape" to people arguing that women can't technically rape men, to #metoo showing that systematic, institutional sexual assault was overlooked for decades because it was just part of showbusiness. I mean, the statistics alone of rape convictions are there. 

Seriously. IMO there's still a lot of 'it's only rape if it's physically violent' feelings out there.

[Umbelina]

We simply disagree.  Ejaculation into her vagina doesn't make it more significant "sex."  He was more than willing to be having sex with her, he just didn't want her to know that ejaculation is how babies are made.  He was deliberately keeping her ignorant.

He lied to her.  She discovered that and was angry and shocked that someone she loved and trusted so much had been deceiving her for months, and taking advantage of her innocence.  She felt embarrassed and mocked.  

They both lied.  They both used the sexual act as a way to lie/trick the other one.

On the show she was 17, it was her first season.  Either way though?  She was a virgin who was kept in the dark, and he knew that, and used that, to get his own way, rather than manning up and telling his wife the truth.  He COULD have children physically, but didn't not want to because of emotional trauma and a ridiculous and stupid revenge plot.  Had he been honest with her?  It would not have happened.

Please don't assume I, or others, don't know what rape is.  We can disagree about that particular scene without the jabs, which are on a very sensitive topic as well.

Edited January 24, 2021 by Umbelina

[Katsullivan]

28 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Ejaculation into her vagina doesn't make it more significant "sex."

Consenting to sexual intercourse does not automatically include consenting to ejaculation into a vagina, and conception. That’s why birth control exists. Non consensual condom removal - including intentionally damaging a condom - is a sexual crime and is classed as reproductive coercion, sexual assault or rape in different countries.

28 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Had he been honest with her?  It would not have happened.

This is actually victim blaming, which seems to be exactly what the show runners were going for

Spoiler

by keeping the rape in the story but putting the focus and “blame” on Simon’s actions, and erasing any focus on the trauma the rape caused him. Which was, an interesting choice, to put it mildly, to make the victim the “bad guy” in the story.

 

Edited January 24, 2021 by Katsullivan

[Growsonwalls]

I think it's Daphne's "gotcha" monologue after the fact that is so problematic. Withdrawal is a very crappy method of birth control precisely because people often get caught up in the moment and don't pull out in time for find themselves in an awkward sexual position to pull out. I think a better solution would have for Daphne to have gotten on top and he ejaculated in her but to write it off as a case of poor timing. But Daphne's speech afterwards made it clear that she intended for this to be a "gotcha" moment. And that's what's abusive/non-consensual.

[janie jones]

On 1/23/2021 at 9:58 AM, Umbelina said:

She guessed, but she was not sure until the moment he ejaculated.  That was her proof.

She went into this encounter knowing what she was doing and what he had been doing. She started putting two and two together after talking to the housekeeper and  seeing him ejaculate into a hanky when they did it on his desk. Then she had her maid give her the birds and the bees talk. She didn't learn anything here other than how he would react once he knew she knew.

[Umbelina]

2 hours ago, janie jones said:

She went into this encounter knowing what she was doing and what he had been doing. She started putting two and two together after talking to the housekeeper and  seeing him ejaculate into a hanky when they did it on his desk. Then she had her maid give her the birds and the bees talk. She didn't learn anything here other than how he would react once he knew she knew.

That was her hypothesis.  His reaction after was her proof, which is why she watched him so closely.

[ouinason]

She explicitly said that she had hoped she was wrong, that he really couldn't do it.