American Murder: The Family Next Door

[Whimsy]

On 10/1/2020 at 9:25 AM, MaggieG said:

I vaguely remember reading about this case when it happened, but didn't remember many details. I thought this was very well done. It was interesting seeing Chris in the beginning, acting concerned, lying about everything. It seemed like he thought he could get away with everything if he just kept lying. He probably didn't expect Shannan's friend to call the police because she was concerned. It was good thing she did because it got the investigation off the ground pretty quickly. 

I can't believe (well I guess I can, because he's a psycho) that he tried to blame Shanann for killing the kids and he told his own father that. Even when the one agent came back and said "are you ok with the public knowing Shanann killed the kids?" he kept saying he didn't hurt them. I think the agents in this investigation were very good, they didn't buy his bs, especially after failing the lie detector. 

A small part of me can maybe, maybe understand him killing his wife in a fit of rage after she tells him "you'll never see your kids again" but killing the kids too? Driving them with their mother's dead body and holding them down in a water tank? I can't fathom him thinking this is the only way. His own children. It's very sad. Although he lied about so many things, I wonder if he did kill her because he was angry or if he planned on doing it. 

I was already pretty familiar with this case, but the added videos and stuff made it more interesting. Regarding the bolded, we don’t even know if that’s what happened. I think that was Chris’ bullshit story to seem sympathetic. To say he snapped because of his children, which he then killed by smothering in the blankets and dumping in oil tanks!! Yeah, there’s no sympathy to be had there, Chris...

On 10/1/2020 at 10:45 AM, EdnasEdibles said:

That being said, good lord the wife with those Facebook updates. Who is she broadcasting all of that to? Why? Who cares? "It's the girls first day at the beach?" and even "Let me know when you're coming down the escalater so I can film you" Good lord, who cares?! No one wants to watch a video of your husband in the airport?! Just greet him like a normal human with your phone in your purse! 

I thought, initially, she was doing that for her family since they lived so far apart and the girls were still so young that she wanted to share videos and stuff with the grandparents. But, after awhile it was apparent she was just one of those people who thinks everyone wants to know every tiny detail about their lives. 

On 10/1/2020 at 12:42 PM, CeceliaBedelia said:

I thought I knew this story but was shocked to learn how the girls actually died.  I assumed it happened the house and that they were asleep.   The horror of what actually happened made me cry for those poor sweet babies.  His own words on how they were hugging each other in the back seat...  They knew something was awfully wrong.   Social media sure is something.  It is amazing how we were able to watch her life like a movie almost exclusively from SM posts.  The juxtaposition of the perfect social media post and her life unraveling in the texts to her friend(s) was well done.  I think she was trying to convince herself as much as her audience that everything was okay. 

Again, that’s the story Chris gave. Who knows what really happened. 

On 10/1/2020 at 1:00 PM, Growsonwalls said:

Well nowadays with all these social media influencers their life IS their brand, thus the constant "curated" content for their followers. Shanann was exhibit A of the trap MLM influencers fall into -- the more their life is falling apart, the more they need the income from their social media, so the more the social media has to portray a perfect aspirational life. I actually know a few wannabe influencers and the gap between their actual lives and the ones they portray on SM is jawdropping. In particular I know one girl who holds "summits" on how to live your life but is basically homeless and on Medicaid. She stays in cheap air bnb;s while she holds these online summits and workshops.

Was she an influencer, though?  I mean, I guess when I think of influencer I think of the younger kids (ie- teens to mid-20’s) who post stuff and then got sponsors based on their follower numbers. I think Shannan was just trying to sell Thrive and posted to sell. Theres a slight difference to me, but maybe that’s just me. I saw nothing influential about her posts. 

On 10/1/2020 at 7:13 PM, Cheezwiz said:

That was the only thing missing from the doc for me. I would have liked a bit more depth on both Shannan's and Chris's pasts before they met. It looks like Shannan somehow managed to build a home for herself at a very young age - she said she worked and scrimped for it, but was that the real story? What happened to it? Did she lose it in her first divorce? No info on her first marriage other than the spouse was abusive.

What was Chris's family background? He seemed like such a blank dim-bulb. A reminder that not all psychopaths are clever. His mother sounds like an absolute nightmare.

I'm not really a "kid" person, but those little girls seemed so happy, sweet, and smart. I can't get their faces out of my head.

I want to know how a 26 year old “worked her tail off” to get that house. I’m 46 and even if I “worked my tail off” I would not be able to afford that house.  What I think I remember from the film is that she got divorced and THEN built the house. Since the house was in North Carolina and they moved to Colorado, I’m sure they sold it to help pay for their house out there. 

On 10/1/2020 at 11:09 PM, Growsonwalls said:

I just spent some time deep diving into the case files.

A few interesting tidbits not mentioned in the film:

- Chris's parents didn;t even attend his wedding with Shanann. So I guess that tension was always there. 

- Chris and Shanann were considering selling the house. Apparently it was too much to maintain and they had money problems. A friend said that Chris said Shanann modeled their house on her parents' house.

- Shanann talked about their sex life in excruciating detail to friends. When they had sex, when they didn't. Apparently they had a very active sex life so when Chris started refusing sex Shanann freaked out.

- Chris's relationship with the girlfriend was fairly new - it was right around the time Shanann went to NC. I had been under the impression they were seeing each other for longer but guess not. Chris at first told Nicole Kessinger that Shanann's baby wasn't his.

The decor, too?  Because that was really juvenile and terrible. 
 

my criticisms aside, I also agree with everyone that, regardless of how exhausting Shannan seemed to be, no one deserved to be mirdered like she was and those poor sweet babies (all 3 of them).... my heart aches for them. 

[merylinkid]

I've dealt with psychopaths in divorce court.   They HATE it.   They aren't in control.   The Judge is.   They are furious that they have to pay ANY amount of child support.   They will do anything to get out of child support.   Because they are CONVINCED that Mom is as self-centered as they are and will only "waste" the child support on themselves, not use it for the kids.   I've had dads demand receipts as a condition of agreeing to child support.   They will ask for joint custody even they have never had the kids for more than a couple hours by themselves even post divorce.   You know they will get joint on paper -- then never take the kids.   They don't want the kids they just don't want to pay child support or Mom to "win."

 

They don't want to divide the property because "I paid for everything why should she get anything?"   It's not that SHE might fight it and make it difficult.   It's literally that accepting anything but the clothes on her back is considered being unreasonable and "just wanting to screw him over."

So yes, some do see murder as easier.   They get to keep all the stuff.   Killing the kids means they don't have to deal with actually raising them.  They don't think they will get caught because they are sooooo much smarter and better than everyone else.   OF COURSE, the stupid cops will believe any story they come up with.   

This is the actual thought process.   

[fountain]

13 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

Another thing I noticed was how Shanann often avoided actually filming herself. She's voicing over a lot of the videos, so her husband and kids seemed like props. Then I saw the surveillance camera video and noticed she was actually kind of a heavy woman. Not in a bad way, but maybe not ideal if her job was shilling weight loss products. 

She was 4 months pregnant in the surveillance video. I hadn’t known she was pregnant as I didn’t remember the case at first and when I saw that video I thought “Is she pregnant?”.

The girlfriend did have a good body, she wasn’t prettier though but men often have beautiful wives and still cheat, it is about something else not how their wife looks.

I liked that show didn’t portray Shanann as perfect as they showed some of what was real. There was definitely a facade there, they were going through the motions of being happy but really weren’t. 

I watched some other stuff on YouTube and it seems the girlfriend pursued Chris even though she knew he was married. She is no Amber Frey that is for sure. 

[Growsonwalls]

I found some info about Thrive, the company Shanann worked for.

Info about Thrive

More Info About Thrive

I'm shocked. I knew about the shadiness of MLM but did not know that even if you do sell products you don't earn ANY money unless you hit a certain quota and recruit more sellers. And that you have to spend a shit ton of money buying those products that you're selling. 

All of Shanann's friends seemed to also be into Thrive, which might explain why she drove a Lexus and have a five bedroom house even though she was up to her eyeballs in debt, because part of the compensation is "lifestyle vacations" and "bonuses for a car."

[Persnickety1]

On 9/30/2020 at 11:38 PM, Cheezwiz said:

I came into this not knowing anything about the case at all. I was expecting there to be some sort of wrinkle or twist to the story, but nope, it was another Scott Peterson situation. Why do people think they'll get away with this? 

The editing was well done for a standard story - there was certainly an abundance of material for the filmmakers to sift through and organize. Something about all the footage of their life really depressed me in a way I can't quite put my finger on - the cookie cutter Mcmansion homes, the just-so decor. Something seemed very sterile and airless. Maybe it was the gap between the happy life Shannan was trying to present on social media, and the reality she was actually living.

So heartbreaking seeing all that footage of those adorable smiling little girls, and the devastation on the faces of Shannan's family in court.

These stories always leave me wondering if there is any way we can spot psychopaths in our midst. Not the brilliant conniving mastermind psychopaths we see in movies, but ordinary average ones who live in our neighbourhoods or work with us.

 

It reminds me of a phrase used in the movie "Clueless," about a faux Monet.

Everything looks absolutely perfect from a distance but as one gets closer, one starts to see all of the flaws.  

Reading those text messages between Shanann and her friend was particularly insightful about what was really going on in the Watts' home.  

Edited October 4, 2020 by Persnickety1

[cpcathy]

I went down a rabbit hole yesterday on YouTube, these videos about body language are always fascinating. The FBI tactics are especially interesting.
 

 

 

[Persnickety1]

On 10/2/2020 at 8:11 AM, Kelly said:

I've been reading about the case since it happened, and it's my understanding from the autopsy findings that the girls were smothered/suffocated before they were placed in the oil tanks.  CW has changed his story multiple times, so it's not really clear if they were killed at the house, or at the oil field.  They were so small, I just can't imagine their fear, their father...so horrible.  It's overwhelming to me.  Chris Watts is a monster.

In terms of SW and her social media presence...it seems clear to me, that it had a negative impact on their family/marriage.  That being said, her LACK of social media activity the morning she was killed, alerted her friends that something was very very wrong.  He should have used her phone, as her, to respond to her friends.  But he wasn't smart enough to do that.  If her friend Nickole had not shown up at her house, I have to wonder, what would have CW done with her car, her phone etc

Sometimes I find myself of the mindset that he had killed the girls at the house, perhaps before Shanann got home.

But then I don't think Shanann would have gone to bed without checking on the girls first.  If he had killed them before she got home, I doubt she would be sipping a beverage he had laced with oxycodone...so I end up thinking that maybe he really did kill them at the oil field.  

Then I end up wondering if he killed them after he killed Shanann but before he left the house.  I would think it would be risky to load 2 (presumably scared) toddlers into a vehicle with their dead mother's body in the event one of them screamed or started crying or bolted out into the street where anybody could drive by.

But then I remember Chris Watts is a lying monster who doesn't seem to be particularly intelligent, and realize that the public will never know the entire truth about that morning, only what he chooses to share in his futile attempts to paint himself in a better light (in his mind).  

One thing I am sure of, though, is if he weren't so stereotypically attractive, I doubt many people would be supporting him at all.  

Sadly, I think a lot of people look at him and think, "Well, look how handsome he is...he couldn't be a murderer" (see: Ted Bundy) and condemn Shanann instead of putting all of the blame squarely where it belongs, on Chris Watts and only Chris Watts.  

 

 

[Enero]

3 hours ago, Whimsy said:

I want to know how a 26 year old “worked her tail off” to get that house. I’m 46 and even if I “worked my tail off” I would not be able to afford that house.  What I think I remember from the film is that she got divorced and THEN built the house. Since the house was in North Carolina and they moved to Colorado, I’m sure they sold it to help pay for their house out there. 

I don’t believe for one second she bought that house on her own and just from working. Working doing what? When in Colorado she was virtually unemployed. Even in NC a house that big would cost at least $400k-$500k. I’m betting her story about working hard to buy that house was a story that had way more to it, similar to her stories about her perfect life. I don’t doubt she worked a job, but her divorce and likely her parents contributed greatly to her having the money to secure a loan to build that house.

 

11 minutes ago, Persnickety1 said:

Sadly, I think a lot of people look at him and think, "Well, look how handsome he is...he couldn't be a murderer" (see: Ted Bundy) and condemn Shanann instead of putting all of the blame squarely where it belongs, on Chris Watts and only Chris Watts.  

Agreed. This makes me think of the Netflix documentary I watched on Bundy. Even the judge who sentenced him for murdering those young ladies in Florida was enthralled with him. It was really disgusting to hear him talk about Buddy’s intelligence and how him having to serve time was a loss to the community. As if him killing those two women, and countless others was a mere traffic ticket. Just disgusting. 

Back to CW, I’m pretty sure he’s getting all the attention he ever desired from women, even though he’s in prison for murdering his family, due to his looks. Scott Peterson is the same way. I think I read that he gets hundreds of letters a day from women all over the world. Not raging at him for his crime, but wanting a romantic relationship with him. It’s sad, baffling and infuriating. 

[CrazyInAlabama]

I don't have Netflix, so I searched for "Shanann Watts texts with friend" and it's on Youtube.      So much for Chris Watts and his parents claiming that everything was fine, and they all got along.     His mother is awful.   She still claims he only plead guilty to avoid the death penalty, but he didn't kill his family. 

The article (from Daily Mail, so not an impartial source) tells the background and why the in-laws were on the outs:

https://meaww.com/chris-watts-shanann-text-mesages-cindy-ronnie-watts-in-laws-relationship-strained      The in-laws sound like a total nightmare for the marriage, and for the grandkids.      

They had to transfer Murderer Watts to a prison in Wisconsin.   Apparently he wasn't too popular with the other prisoners.  His parents do not live near there either.   

I just saw an article about unsellable houses that were crime scenes.   The Watts house went into foreclosure, but no one bought it, so it's in limbo until a creditor forecloses on it again.     One creditor is Shanann's family, they have claims against anything from the estate.    

https://www.realtor.com/news/celebrity-real-estate/chris-watts-murder-house-in-limbo/

I can't imagine living in that house.  

When this case was unfolding, Nancy Grace was still on HLN, she interviewed the previous relationship Chris Watts had before the mistress he was with during the murders.   It was some man, and he claimed he wasn't the first adulterous relationship Chris Watts had, and he told him he was single.  

Shanann's parents offered mementos to Chris's parents when they were cleaning out the house, and the in-laws wanted nothing.        Chris Watts' mother's interviews are beyond appalling, with the victim blaming, claims that her son wasn't guilty, and her belief about her son's disgusting statements about the woman he murdered.   

I really think law enforcement should have looked harder at the current mistress, and looked closer at her movements on the day of the murders, and right after.   

A lot of the MLM companies have their members do the posting 24/7.    I don't understand it either, but it's pretty common.   However, that's another reason I don't believe anything Chris Watts' mistress said about not knowing about the pregnancy, and that they were still living together. 

Edited October 4, 2020 by CrazyInAlabama

[Persnickety1]

On 10/1/2020 at 8:09 PM, Growsonwalls said:

I just spent some time deep diving into the case files.

A few interesting tidbits not mentioned in the film:

- Chris's parents didn;t even attend his wedding with Shanann. So I guess that tension was always there. 

- Chris and Shanann were considering selling the house. Apparently it was too much to maintain and they had money problems. A friend said that Chris said Shanann modeled their house on her parents' house.

- Shanann talked about their sex life in excruciating detail to friends. When they had sex, when they didn't. Apparently they had a very active sex life so when Chris started refusing sex Shanann freaked out.

- Chris's relationship with the girlfriend was fairly new - it was right around the time Shanann went to NC. I had been under the impression they were seeing each other for longer but guess not. Chris at first told Nicole Kessinger that Shanann's baby wasn't his.

Yowza, that's almost 2000 pages.  

I'm on page 58 and I've bookmarked it for further reading.

Thanks for the link!

[Scarlett45]

On 10/1/2020 at 7:35 PM, zibnchy said:

Message to Men: Here's a good deal. Just go kill yourself first and then, after you're dead, if you really really want to kill your family you can go right ahead. How bout that.

This isn’t funny but I really had to laugh!!

[Scarlett45]

I listened to a podcast about this case several months ago. My heart hurts for this poor poor babies and how afraid they must’ve been. 

5 hours ago, merylinkid said:

I've dealt with psychopaths in divorce court.   They HATE it.   They aren't in control.   The Judge is.   They are furious that they have to pay ANY amount of child support.   They will do anything to get out of child support.   Because they are CONVINCED that Mom is as self-centered as they are and will only "waste" the child support on themselves, not use it for the kids.   I've had dads demand receipts as a condition of agreeing to child support.   They will ask for joint custody even they have never had the kids for more than a couple hours by themselves even post divorce.   You know they will get joint on paper -- then never take the kids.   They don't want the kids they just don't want to pay child support or Mom to "win."

 

They don't want to divide the property because "I paid for everything why should she get anything?"   It's not that SHE might fight it and make it difficult.   It's literally that accepting anything but the clothes on her back is considered being unreasonable and "just wanting to screw him over."

So yes, some do see murder as easier.   They get to keep all the stuff.   Killing the kids means they don't have to deal with actually raising them.  They don't think they will get caught because they are sooooo much smarter and better than everyone else.   OF COURSE, the stupid cops will believe any story they come up with.   

This is the actual thought process.   

I’m a lawyer too (but I don’t do family law) and 100% agree with you. Sadly. 
 

I think the abuser who knows the victim is leaving or “goes to far” is the most common type of person that murders their spouse. It’s just rare to be murdered by a partner who’s never been violent or abusive before. The psychopath like this guy is the second most common type.
 

I think “Family Annihilator” is the rarest but likely the one that can be fixed. I think those people really do “snap” and if they got some mental health support before they actually kill someone it could be avoided. 

Again those poor poor babies. I do believe he drugged his wife and smothered her while she slept. Although they fought I don’t think she suspected he would POISON HER. And it’s hard to kill another adult in hand to hand combat (no weapon)- she had to be drugged. I believe the girls were terrified but he was still their Dad, so they followed him. 
 

When Andrea Yates killed her kids she killed the youngest children first, and the oldest child fought back, the survival instinct was strong but a tiny child isn’t a match for an adult. 
 

Fuck him. Those poor babies. I’m just happy she wasn’t alive to see her kids murdered. She would’ve fought to the death for them most likely, and Chris was a coward- murder a sleeping woman and your own little babies! 
 

I don’t think he’s having an easy life in prison for what it’s worth. There’s an honor even among criminals and people who hurt kids are at the bottom of the pecking order. 
 

[bilgistic]

5 hours ago, merylinkid said:

I've dealt with psychopaths in divorce court.   They HATE it.   They aren't in control.   The Judge is.   They are furious that they have to pay ANY amount of child support.   They will do anything to get out of child support.   Because they are CONVINCED that Mom is as self-centered as they are and will only "waste" the child support on themselves, not use it for the kids.   I've had dads demand receipts as a condition of agreeing to child support.   They will ask for joint custody even they have never had the kids for more than a couple hours by themselves even post divorce.   You know they will get joint on paper -- then never take the kids.   They don't want the kids they just don't want to pay child support or Mom to "win."

 

They don't want to divide the property because "I paid for everything why should she get anything?"   It's not that SHE might fight it and make it difficult.   It's literally that accepting anything but the clothes on her back is considered being unreasonable and "just wanting to screw him over."

So yes, some do see murder as easier.   They get to keep all the stuff.   Killing the kids means they don't have to deal with actually raising them.  They don't think they will get caught because they are sooooo much smarter and better than everyone else.   OF COURSE, the stupid cops will believe any story they come up with.   

This is the actual thought process.   

This is my "birth" father (because that's all he is) to a T. My parents split when I was five and my father was a cop. When watching this show, I had the chilling thought that my mother and then-very young sisters and I were probably lucky we didn't end up murdered.

[Scarlett45]

3 minutes ago, bilgistic said:

This is my "birth" father (because that's all he is) to a T. My parents split when I was five and my father was a cop. When watching this show, I had the chilling thought that my mother and then-very young sisters and I were probably lucky we didn't end up murdered.

I’m sorry this brought up bad memories. 
 

Most of those types don’t resort to murder because of the very serious consequences. Most people (even if they are assholes) aren’t murderers, so I understand why so many don’t see this coming. 

[thejuicer]

The incessant Facebook posting is a bit much but Shanann actually does seem like a fun loving, positive person with a loving family and lots of friends. If she was "bossy", it's because her husband is a dull, unfaithful loser (and psychopath murderer) who probably answered every question with "I dunno, it's up to you". 

[Irlandesa]

On 10/3/2020 at 5:37 PM, Growsonwalls said:

I thought the most awkward moment was when Shanann filmed Chris "finding out" she was pregnant. He pauses with this "oh shit" look before forcing a smile. I wonder if Shanann purposely got pregnant to "save the marriage." I also thought that her forcing Bella and Cece to "celebrate" her new pregnancy was awkward.

I did a little Googling about this case after this aired and I read somewhere that this wasn't an oops baby, in spite of the shirt, but rather one that they were trying for. 

On 10/3/2020 at 3:41 PM, sainte-chapelle said:

I loved that this documentary painted Shannan in a more honest light. Most shows tend to paint victims as perfect. We are all human but I would have stayed away from Shanann in real life, she is too needy, phoney and exhausting for me.

I am torn about the value of showing her in a negative light.  I would normally argue that it's a good thing to show that victims aren't perfect because the "perfect victim" expectation makes it hard for victims to get justice.

But then I hear those phone calls supporting Chris.  And I read debates online where the fact that he killed his wife and daughters is treated almost as an afterthought.  There are blogs that will say "she didn't deserve to die but..." and then have hundreds of posts debating whether or not she lied about her daughter having allergies.

And honestly, all that does is show me that people don't really understand allergies.  Just because the daughter is allergic to one kind of nut doesn't mean she'd be allergic to another nut.  And if she's allergic to all tree nuts, she still wouldn't necessarily be allergic to coconuts which is considered a tree nut but isn't like other tree nuts. To continue along these lines...

So it all makes me understand why the Datelines of this world choose the "she brightened up any room she walked into" angle.

11 hours ago, cpcathy said:

I went down a rabbit hole yesterday on YouTube, these videos about body language are always fascinating. The FBI tactics are especially interesting.

I'm afraid that the videos support a misogynistic attitude that he was "henpecked" and beatdown or any other terms used to describe men with forceful women.  And what else was he to do but snap?

But what I found interesting about the body language videos you found, and what I missed when I watched the documentary (if that part was even in the documentary) is that the neighbor said that when Shanann was gone on vacation, he was a little worried that something might have happened to her (i.e. wasn't sure whether or not she was actually on vacation) because he'd hear them screaming at each other.  He specifically said he (Chris) would go crazy. 

And that is a side of Chris we didn't see when the cameras were on or he was out in public.  So he comes off as so docile and even though we know he killed them, I still think so many people think that he just snapped.  It sounds like the rage was there all along. 

[Growsonwalls]

Well I think the reason people are talking about Shanann so much is that for better or worse she has a very strong distinct personality that comes through in the doc, whereas Chris has no personality. If anyone was the posterboy for "the banality of evil" it's him. There's just nothing interesting about him other than the heinous evil he committed. 

I also think there's interest in Shanann because many people online have talked about their negative experiences with MLM companies. I fell down a rabbit hole of a discussion about MLM companies and it's quite the horror story that could make another great Netflix documentary. For instance I found out what those "lifestyle bonus" compensations were -- basically you're pressured to lease a luxury car on your own dime with the company paying part of the lease. That;s considered a top tier of compensation. Wow. 

[Irlandesa]

@Growsonwalls  While I do think your points have merit, I think it goes a little deeper than having a distinct personality or that she was a part of an MLM.  I think it taps into society's need to make excuses or find reasons for why men, usually white men, do what they do to women. 

[Iris987]

15 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I don’t think he’s having an easy life in prison for what it’s worth. There’s an honor even among criminals and people who hurt kids are at the bottom of the pecking order. 

Not always. When I was younger there was a man who was part of a really disgusting pedophile ring in my state. The last victim was the son of the local newsreader who was grabbed 50 meters from his house. I won't post the details, it's fucking disgusting and you can't unlearn it. The police think they were responsible for at least 5, although probably more, murders. This sounds like QAnon bullshit but this actually happened. They only nabbed one person for it and he got life in prison. You'd think he'd be despised and targeted but the truth is he's a protected prisoner and within that echelon he's at the top. He's living as good a life as you can whilst being in prison and I think if you're manipulative enough you can make your life easier in jail. I'm not sure Chris Watts has those skills yet but he can learn them.

I semi followed this case at the time but watched the whole interrogation on youtube once. He's not a mastermind, that's for sure. When will these family annihilators learn that if you pull something like this you will ALWAYS be the starting point for the cops. They start with the spouse and then work their way out if they clear you. This man might as well have been carrying a sign that read "Yes,I did it". I think he fell in love with someone else, was drowning in debt and wanted out. I don't think he "planned" it but I also don't believe anything he said about why he did it or the sequence of how it happened. It changed every single time, depending on his audience. He's just a weasel. 

Edited October 5, 2020 by Iris987
.

[ThatGreyCat]

Has it been proven that the kids even had these food allergies?  Or were the allergies part of her schtick about her amazing, curative MLM products?  

I thought it was weird how she went on and on about how Chris saw her at her worst and took care of her when they first met and she was really sick.  It is bizarre to me to envision meeting some guy and letting him take care of me sick before we even know each other.  She gave the impression he was practically changing her bedpans and cleaning her up.  That was a red flag for me.  Who wants to be that needy? 

Edited October 5, 2020 by ThatGreyCat

[Kelly]

20 hours ago, Enero said:

I don’t believe for one second she bought that house on her own and just from working. Working doing what? When in Colorado she was virtually unemployed. Even in NC a house that big would cost at least $400k-$500k. I’m betting her story about working hard to buy that house was a story that had way more to it, similar to her stories about her perfect life. I don’t doubt she worked a job, but her divorce and likely her parents contributed greatly to her having the money to secure a loan to build that house.

ITA

I did read something awhile ago, that she was embezzling from her employer.  Not sure if that’s accurate or not, but regardless...something not quite right was going on.  Also allegedly, when she sold that house, she left all the furnishings behind.

[truthaboutluv]

26 minutes ago, ThatGreyCat said:

t is bizarre to me to envision meeting some guy and letting him take care of me sick before we even know each other. 

To be fair, she also said that she repeatedly pushed him away at the beginning, likely because she was sick. So I didn't see that as her being needy and if anything, her not wanting to have to depend on someone so early in a relationship. 

[truthaboutluv]

6 hours ago, Iris987 said:

When will these family annihilators learn that if you pull something like this you will ALWAYS be the starting point for the cops. They start with the spouse and then work their way out if they clear you.

I used to watch a lot of True Crime shows and so many times, detectives in the episodes would always say that it amazes them how many people seem to think detectives are stupid, despite the fact that many of them see cases like these so many times. Anytime there's any family crime where coincidentally everyone but one person ends up dead - doesn't even have to be the father - the police are looking at the remaining family member. 

Look at the Dana Ewell case. The police admitted that almost immediately they suspected Dana, even with his "alibi" of being away with his girlfriend that weekend. Because the way to always look at these cases, is who stands to gain the most with all of these people out of the way?

[MaggieG]

21 hours ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

When this case was unfolding, Nancy Grace was still on HLN, she interviewed the previous relationship Chris Watts had before the mistress he was with during the murders.   It was some man, and he claimed he wasn't the first adulterous relationship Chris Watts had, and he told him he was single.  

Wait, so Chris dated a man? Is he bi? Plot twist

@Scarlett45 would love to know what podcast that was! I'm running out of things to listen to while WFH

[Scarlett45]

@MaggieG True Crime Obsessed - warning, I love this podcast, but some have said they can’t stand the guy’s voice/vocal fry. I find him entertaining. 

[LoquaciousAudacity]

Would anyone have a link delving further into the girlfriend? I tried finding more information on the Reddit link but there's so much!

The documentary was sad. Regardless of Shanann, I just can't imagine someone being such a monster. Listening to an interview with his mom, I can see where he got some of it from. The victim blaming. I really think he thought he'd be able to get away with it, but her friends and the neighbors were too on top of it. 

[Scarlett45]

3 minutes ago, LoquaciousAudacity said:

Would anyone have a link delving further into the girlfriend? I tried finding more information on the Reddit link but there's so much!

The documentary was sad. Regardless of Shanann, I just can't imagine someone being such a monster. Listening to an interview with his mom, I can see where he got some of it from. The victim blaming. I really think he thought he'd be able to get away with it, but her friends and the neighbors were too on top of it. 

It’s dumb as shit to think you could murder your wife IN THE HOUSE, and then kill your daughters, and get away with it! Not even arrange to kill her in public where someone else may have killed her. Like a mugging or something. 

[cpcathy]

2 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

@MaggieG True Crime Obsessed - warning, I love this podcast, but some have said they can’t stand the guy’s voice/vocal fry. I find him entertaining. 

I listened, and then subscribed. I enjoyed it and am now listening to the Zodiac episode.

[Persnickety1]

1 hour ago, LoquaciousAudacity said:

Would anyone have a link delving further into the girlfriend? I tried finding more information on the Reddit link but there's so much!

I found the fact that she apparently entered the witness protection program interesting.  

I'm still reading the discovery document (about 2000 pages), but if I come across anything else of interest about the girlfriend, I'll post it.  

[Jillybean]

On 10/2/2020 at 1:12 AM, Irlandesa said:

Worse, it was an oil tank.  I don't know why I find that worse but I do.  At least there's something clean about water. 

Much worse. Here's why  (Warning: VERY disturbing).   And this. 

[CrazyInAlabama]

I really wonder why the girlfriend disappeared, and hope they didn't waste resources on putting her in witness protection.    Unless she ratted out something else, she didn't know anything worth protecting.   Unless she was already in the program, and this exposed her identity.  

[EdnasEdibles]

This video is very very illuminating about the girlfriend. It’s a YouTube based on the case file. Based on her searches, she does not look innocent. 

[Iris987]

7 hours ago, LoquaciousAudacity said:

Listening to an interview with his mom, I can see where he got some of it from. The victim blaming.

His whole family is odd. His mum was pretty unsympathetic although I think her issues were standard 'I don't like my daughter in law' and an inability to believe that her golden child was capable of this. The dad was just odd. He became a coke addict because his son moved out when he was 18? That's lunacy. They were a strangely co-dependent family but I still wouldn't point to that as a reason for what he did. And aside from the act itself he did EVERYTHING wrong. Parked the car in the wrong spot when he loaded the bodies. Randomly announced that they were separating to everyone once they were missing. Doing a tv interview. Taking a polygraph. Not asking for a lawyer. Watching 2 episodes of SVU would have saved him from all of these mistakes. They were probably going to get him anyway but he certainly made it easier.

I wish the doc included more of the follow up interview the agents did once he was sentenced. You really get an idea of what a squirrelly person he is. He talks about his parents being unable to accept it and still believing Shannan killed the kids even though he has told them 'I pled guilty and am in here for a reason'. The agents ask if he wants them to talk to them and tell them that he unequivocally admitted what happened and he said no. So he admits to something vague whilst continuing to give his family false hope because even now he's too much of a coward to own what he did in full.

[Growsonwalls]

One thing about the videos Shanann made extolling Chris -- its hard to tell how sincere the videos were. She was after all shilling for a company and her job required her to lead an "aspirational" sort of life. I personally don't believe Chris was ever that much of a prize. I have a feeling Shanann just felt depressed after her first marriage crashed and burned and picked up Chris because he seemed meek and agreeable.

[Dr.OO7]

On 9/30/2020 at 7:52 PM, bilgistic said:

I'm watching a documentary about a pregnant woman and her kids disappearing, so the husband/kids' father did it.

Domestic violence is the number one reason a pregnant woman will end up in the hospital or dead. There's a notorious case from as far back as 1906 (the Grace Brown story). This is such a huge problem that evaluation for domestic abuse is a mandatory part of prenatal care. 

The worst part is that it's never a typical scenario where the guy is already smacking his wife/girlfriend around. In most cases--Scott Peterson, Mark Hacking--the relationship was supposedly happy. How the hell is some poor woman ever supposed to suspect that her boyfriend/husband is planning to kill her when he's being all lovey-dovey?

 

Edited October 6, 2020 by Dr.OO7

[Dr.OO7]

On 10/2/2020 at 1:12 AM, Irlandesa said:

Yes, even grandparents with their grandkids. 

ESPECIALLY grandparents and grandchildren. Reddit and other advice columns are full of "MIL From Hell" stories like this:

Parents: Don't fed Jimmy/Janie peanuts. He/She is violently allergic to them.

Grandmother: Oh, nonsense! Allergies are nothing! Here's a peanut butter cookie, sweetheart!

(Jimmy/Jane ends up in the hospital with anaphylactic shock)

Parents: You are NEVER seeing Jimmy/Jane again!

Grandmother: WAAH! But I didn't know! How was I supposed to know it would be dangerous to feed him/her something you told me he/she was violently allergic to! I don't deserve to be kept away from my grandbaby! WAAH!

Edited October 6, 2020 by Dr.OO7

[Dr.OO7]

On 10/5/2020 at 2:48 AM, Irlandesa said:

I think it taps into society's need to make excuses or find reasons for why men, usually white men, do what they do to women. 

Oh, yes. It's a rape victim's fault for enticing the guy--"She said "Hello" to him! That tramp! She was asking for it!", or for failing to rebuff him--"She only said "No" five times! If she wasn't interested, she should have said it SIX times! That tramp!". Or it's the wife/girlfriend's fault for failing to satisfy him--"She only has sex with him three times a day! That prude! Of course he had to look elsewhere!" or for doing something else that drove him to another woman. Or the other woman's fault, again for enticing him. 

And if he got violent with her, it's her fault for being a bitch. I was so enraged after the Parkland shooting when people wanted to blame one of his victims, a classmate he'd been pestering for a date. Rather than it being HIS fault for being a psycho who couldn't take "No" for an answer, it's hers for not giving him at least a "pity date" and for being such a big old meanie to him when she finally got fed up with his harassment and told him off.

(It took *22* years for my mother to stop chastising me for supposedly breaking the heart of the ex-boyfriend who stalked me for an entire year after I broke up with him and realize that no, he was not a sweet, lovestruck guy trying to get back the girl of his dreams, he was a possessive nutcase who thought I was his property and wouldn't take "No, our relationship is over" for an answer)

I don't care if Shanan was a grade-A bitch from hell. She did not deserve to be murdered by her husband and her children sure as hell didn't deserve to be murdered by their father. If he couldn't take it anymore, he should have filed for divorce. I'd much rather deal with an asshole who divorced his pregnant wife than a psychopath who killed her.

Edited October 7, 2020 by Dr.OO7

[Irlandesa]

12 hours ago, ThatGreyCat said:

Has it been proven that the kids even had these food allergies?  Or were the allergies part of her schtick about her amazing, curative MLM products? 

Both kids didn't have allergies.  Only one did, I believe.  As for whether or not it's "proven"---I don't think it was relevant to the case so I guess technically not.  But also, it wasn't relevant to the case. 

[blixie]

Quote

I think Shannan was just trying to sell Thrive and posted to sell. Theres a slight difference to me, but maybe that’s just me.

An influencer wants to sell shit/make money based on their social media presence. So yes i think she qualifies.

Still I was pretty uncomfortable with how much this doc seemed to suggest she really WAS to blame for her own murder, and to some extent that his mom is to blame too. Like it's no wonder Chris is what he is when he apparently never held accountable for anything, and he could always blame the "domineering" women in his life for all his problems.

I really hate family annihilators, I'll never get the jump from whoops accidentally on purpose killed my wife better just kill these inconvenient children/babies cause I'm already fucked. I realize logic isn't front of mind, but it still just where they go in their heads to make it make sense in that moment. What load of bullshit do they tell themselves?

 

[Dr.OO7]

14 minutes ago, blixie said:

Like it's no wonder Chris is what he is when he apparently never held accountable for anything, and he could always blame the "domineering" women in his life for all his problems

Hell, yes. He even blames the mistress for pursuing him.

Speaking of whom, while I don't think she was directly involved in the murders, I call bullshit on everything else she claims, as described halfway through this article: 

https://medium.com/honestly-yours/what-netflixs-american-murder-didn-t-tell-you-about-chris-and-shanann-watts-2a90a9a88745

She was Googling him from 2017, a full year before the affair and murders. She knew full well he was married. 

I don't think she's in witness protection per se, she's just disappeared because she knows the backlash and harassment she'll face if her whereabouts are ever known.

[EdnasEdibles]

1 minute ago, Dr.OO7 said:

Hell, yes. He even blames the mistress for pursuing him.

Speaking of whom, while I don't think she was directly involved in the murders, I call bullshit on everything else she claims, as described halfway through this article: 

https://medium.com/honestly-yours/what-netflixs-american-murder-didn-t-tell-you-about-chris-and-shanann-watts-2a90a9a88745

She was Googling him from 2017, a full year before the affair and murders. She knew full well he was married. 

I don't think she's in witness protection per se, she's just disappeared because she knows the backlash and harassment she'll face if her whereabouts are ever known.

Yep. And the video linked above said that the mistress was googling “amber frey net worth” and “Amber frey book deal” and “Do people hate Amber Frey?” When Shannan was reported missing. So. . . Yeah. That’s not a good sign of being a good person.

And to be fair to Amber, I feel like everything I read indicated that she had no idea he was married and came forward right away. This one? Not so much. 

[Irlandesa]

22 minutes ago, Dr.OO7 said:

Speaking of whom, while I don't think she was directly involved in the murders, I call bullshit on everything else she claims, as described halfway through this article: 

https://medium.com/honestly-yours/what-netflixs-american-murder-didn-t-tell-you-about-chris-and-shanann-watts-2a90a9a88745

That's a great article that adds more details that I think should have been in the documentary.

Like it wasn't just the neighbor who noticed the fighting.

Shanann told her friend via text that they had discussed having a baby before she got pregnant and she was surprised that he did an about face after she was pregnant.  So unless she's lying to her friend, this was not an entrapment baby on her part with Chris being an unwilling participant. 

He claims he was slipping her Oxy for weeks to try and get her to lose the baby.

He tried to kill the kids twice.  He actually smothered them before killing Shanaan.  After she died.  They woke up. 

He did not just snap. It was premeditated.  It wasn't because Shanann was awful. It was because he decided he wanted to be with his mistress and thought murder was the easiest way to get there.

Oh, and it looks like the mistress was kind of after him.  It almost makes me wonder if she first saw Shanann online, like what she saw of her husband, and went after him when she had the chance.

Edited October 6, 2020 by Irlandesa

[Dr.OO7]

1 hour ago, EdnasEdibles said:

And to be fair to Amber, I feel like everything I read indicated that she had no idea he was married and came forward right away. This one? Not so much

Exactly. People don't hate Amber Frey because she genuinely didn't know Scott Peterson was married, came forward the minute she realized what was going on, and never once worried if the police or public would condemn her or think she was involved. This bitch hauled ass to cover her tracks--one of her searches was on how to permanently delete text messages--and last I heard, was STILL trying to downplay their relationship.

[Spartan Girl]

5 hours ago, Dr.OO7 said:

Exactly. People don't hate Amber Frey because she genuinely didn't know Scott Peterson was married, came forward the minute she realized what was going on, and never once worried if the police or public would condemn her or think she was involved. 

And yet there are people who still have the nerve to slut shame her, calling her "a woman scorned" -- the same people I might add who think Scott Peterson got "railroaded". Spare me.

Chris Watts is a monster. Whatever Shannan was, she didn't deserve to die, and she sure as hell didn't deserve to be posthumously framed for the girls' murder.

Edited October 6, 2020 by Spartan Girl

[Wiendish Fitch]

I'm appalled-but not the least bit surprised- that people are trying to blame Shanann for the murder, that she was somehow "asking for it".

Since I like to think I'm a woman with some semblance of imagination, here are a few thought experiments:

Scenario #1: Shanann was an evil, abusive monster who hid behind the facade of a perfect wife and mother, but in reality physically/verbally/psychologically/sexually abused her husband and children.

Chris murdered his children. Absolutely no justification for that, don't even try.

Scenario #2: Shanann was indeed perfect. She was a kind, loving, devoted wife and mother, worked for a company that was 100% ethical, and not a single person on the planet had a negative thing to say about her.

I can guarantee you that at least a small subset of people would cry, "But she was too perfect! She made Chris feel like less of a man, like he couldn't measure up! Her standards were too high, she wasn't human enough, WAAAAAHHH!"

Still no fucking justification for murdering her or the kids. I can't believe I even have to mention that part, but here we are.

To sum up, I don't care if Shanann was "likable" or not. Murder is murder, and that worthless piece of shit husband of hers saw fit to take the lives of his children as well. There aren't enough negative adjectives in the human language to describe someone who would do that.

To all the people who like to bleat "Why didn't the rape victim say no or fight him off or speak up sooner???", here's my rebuttal: Why don't these family annihilators just ask for a fucking divorce and be done with it?!

To all the women out there who defend the likes of Scott Peterson, Chris Watts, and Mark Hacker and send them love letters: You really, really don't want to know what I think of you.

Edited October 6, 2020 by Wiendish Fitch

[Persnickety1]

12 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

Both kids didn't have allergies.  Only one did, I believe.  As for whether or not it's "proven"---I don't think it was relevant to the case so I guess technically not.  But also, it wasn't relevant to the case. 

Reading that 2000-page discovery document, I came across where one of the girls had an EpiPen prescribed to her.  

Also, the missing persons flyer was updated to reflect "possibly endangered" (I don't remember the exact phrase used by LE) because of a medical condition.  

I believe it was a true and perhaps severe allergy.  Doctors don't normally prescribe EpiPens without good cause.  

11 hours ago, EdnasEdibles said:

Yep. And the video linked above said that the mistress was googling “amber frey net worth” and “Amber frey book deal” and “Do people hate Amber Frey?” When Shannan was reported missing. So. . . Yeah. That’s not a good sign of being a good person.

And to be fair to Amber, I feel like everything I read indicated that she had no idea he was married and came forward right away. This one? Not so much. 

I lived near Amber and am friends with her on FB.  

She didn't know.  

[Spartan Girl]

4 hours ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

To sum up, I don't care if Shanann was "likable" or not. Murder is murder, and that worthless piece of shit husband of hers saw fit to take the lives of his children as well. There aren't enough negative adjectives in the human language to describe som

THANK YOU. Why is her "likability" even up for discussion on this thread?! HE KILLED HER AND THE KIDS. 

[Wiendish Fitch]

17 hours ago, Dr.OO7 said:

I don't care if Shanan was a grade-A bitch from hell. She did not deserve to be murdered by her husband and her children sure as hell didn't deserve to be murdered by their father. If he couldn't take it anymore, he should have filed for divorce. I'd much rather deal with an asshole who divorced his pregnant wife than a psychopath who killed her.

Agreed. It is absolutely, 100% irrelevant at this point whether or not Shanann was a wonderful person. Dead is dead, and trying in any way to blame her cruelly absconds her disgusting husband of responsibility for his crime... which involved murdering his children.

Rape victims don't "ask" to be raped.

Mugging victims shouldn't be chastised for being "in the wrong place at the wrong time".

"Not that nice" is not a reason/excuse/justification for murder.

[EdnasEdibles]

I think people have been pretty clear in saying that they in no way think that Shannan was responsible in any way at all for her murder. I don't think one person has said that at all.

It IS interesting though to see a documentary where the victim isn't painted as an angel. I think Dateline falls into this trap a lot with their episodes where when they discuss the victim the have quotes like "She loved life. She lit up every room she went into and everyone loved her" and honestly, that's not realistic. So it's refreshing to see someone painted realistically. It surprised me a bit since her family was a part of the documentary and they signed off on it but it is refreshing.

I think there is a problem in society with an imperfect victim. It's the reason cases like Elizabeth Smart get way more attention than other cases. Society loves a Perfect Victim. But there is no such thing as a perfect victim. We're all human and we all have faults and no one is 100% kind and 100% loving 100% of the time. But we are often introduced to these cases as if the woman is perfect. I don't know that it helps anyone to perpetuate that myth. Laci Peterson was brutally murdered in the previous decade to Shannan. She did not post everything on social media and she is still held very much in regard to be an angel who walked on this planet. 

Her likeability does not have anything to do with whether she's at fault for murder. Hell no she isn't. It's entirely her shitty sick husband's fault. She's kind of annoying. He's a textbook narcisist. And I think it's important to spot the clues of a narcisist. 

I do think the documentary is groundbreaking in a way to to wear down a bit of the "perfect victim" veil and make us think a little bit more about how we tell these stories and how we talk about marriage and relationships and mothers. 

And I also think the excessive and annoying social media posts are important to look at and figure out the psychology behind those. I got divorced a few years ago. As I started telling people "I'm actually moving because I'm divorced" or "Actually we're no longer together, we're getting a divorce" I had so many women from all parts of my life tell me "Oh man, my husband and I are fighting constantly" or "We haven't had sex in five years" or "I hate him so much it makes me physically sick to my stomach when he touches me" - and those are all things that people told me. But the "physically sick" person posts so many happy photos on social. Adorable professional Christmas card photos. Lots of "My man is turning 40 today! I don't know what we'd do without them" and it's a weird thing to see someone who confessed all of these dark and sad thoughts, present such a happy image to the public. 

So looking at it critically in how the documentary was put together, likeability is important to discuss. I keep coming back to the discussion about it because it is so fascinating to me. I don't think I would have liked Shannan as a person. But then she reminds me of people I know. And in a way that makes it all the more real for me to see this. To really recognize that this truly can happen to anyone. And for me it's a good reminder that the perfect social media image is not the truth. That we never truly know what's going on in someone's home and we have to be more like the neighbor and her friend and notice the clues and jump in to help. 

Because it's not just Perfect Angels who are brutally murdered. It's that girl you went to high school with who is trying to sell you jamberry. It's the lady who lives down the street who's kids are adorable and always seem so well-dressed. It's the girl from college who's married to the guy who looks like he does push-up challenges in his spare time. It's the co-worker who confessed he makes her physically sick but then you get a Christmas card where they're all matching. 

It's all fascinating to me. I know a lot of Shannans. And I can say that because this documentary gave us a real person. A real person with faults and issues and we don't really ever get to see that. I think it's important that we see that. I think it goes a long way in helping us remember that this doesn't just happen in Lifetime movies. It happens everywhere. 

 

 

[Growsonwalls]

I don't think that this documentary set out to sully Shanann's name. I think the use of the social media was to serve as a contrast to Shanann's increasingly sad, worried text messages about the state of her marriage. You have SM giving one picture and then Shanann's text messages saying something very different. I think it's meant to make us think about the use of SM to often drive a narrative that is misleading or incomplete, and why so many people nowadays feel the need to create this dream life on SM. 

As for liking Shanann? I don't think I would have personally been friends with her, but I don't have to like victims to know that nothing could have justified Chris's actions. Nothing. I will say though that despite Shanann seeming bossy at times she did seem to have some very loyal friends and family, and the kids looked very loved and well cared for. I think the documentary showed that too.