House Stark: Winter Is Coming

[Hecate7]

On 5/27/2016 at 6:02 PM, Funzlerks said:

Jon usually dined with the family, which is why it stung him when he was delegated to the back tables for the King's visit.  And it would have been poor form to make Cersei dine with a bastard, heh.  The book made it clear that Jon was basically raised with the same benefits as Bran and Rickon, save Catelyn's affection.  And that it was really strange that he was even at Winterfell at all, because usually the Ned Starks didn't make their wives deal with that heartache daily.

 

Jon's real tragedy is not having a mother and feeling alienated from his siblings' mother.  I don't see why just because she was a mom, she should be expected to be his mom.  She had nothing to do with anything that left him motherless.

 

The Martells are completely different culturally.  Was Catelyn cold because she didn't encourage Ned to take male lovers?

It's ugly. It's okay that it's ugly. Catelyn doesn't have to be perfect. But this is ugly and it is foreshadowing of what was eventually going to be left of her when the superficial stuff rotted away.

[Constantinople]

Rickon will go down in history as The Running Stark.

[Lady S.]

Specifically the running in a straight line Stark. RIP walnut crusher, we hardly knew ye. Guess now we'll never know why he shared Bran's dream about Ned's death, unless it was just to foreshadow that he belonged down in the crypts with his father.

[Maximum Taco]

14 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Specifically the running in a straight line Stark. RIP walnut crusher, we hardly knew ye. Guess now we'll never know why he shared Bran's dream about Ned's death, unless it was just to foreshadow that he belonged down in the crypts with his father.

All the Starks are potential wargs, and I think they all have the potential to greendream as well, in the books Jon dreams of Robb's death, so it's not just Bran and Rickon who have been shown to have this ability.

They can all do it, Bran's just better at it then his siblings, probably partially because of natural gifts, partially because of his injury and partially because he's the only one who is fully aware of what he is and is working at getting better and better at it.

[Lady S.]

2 hours ago, Maximum Taco said:

All the Starks are potential wargs, and I think they all have the potential to greendream as well, in the books Jon dreams of Robb's death, so it's not just Bran and Rickon who have been shown to have this ability.

He dreams of Grey Wind's death, unaware which wolf he was actually seeing, I'm not sure that's really the same thing. Bran and Rickon actually talked to Ned down in the crypts. 

[Maximum Taco]

3 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

He dreams of Grey Wind's death, unaware which wolf he was actually seeing, I'm not sure that's really the same thing. Bran and Rickon actually talked to Ned down in the crypts. 

Again I think that just speaks to the fact that Bran and Rickon are better seers then the rest of the Starks.

It might be a issue of youth too, it's a very common trope that magical abilities are at the rawest and easiest to tap into when the user is young, and if not seized upon they start to fade with age.

Spoiler

In the books you notice that the best of the skinchangers are the younger Starks, Arya, Bran and I'd argue Rickon, who we can't be sure of cause he doesn't have a POV, but is frequently commented to be as wild and feral as Shaggydog. An indication that their personalities have merged through extensive warging.

Edited June 24, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[Constantinople]

18 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Specifically the running in a straight line Stark.

Now that I think about it, perhaps Rickon will be called Straight Arrow Stark.

[Lady S.]

Reminder that this was the first scene we saw Rickon, and the only time he interacted with Jon before now. 
 

[bunnyblue]

57 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

Reminder that this was the first scene we saw Rickon, and the only time he interacted with Jon before now. 
 

Awww, look at that poor sweet little boy. Kid got a shit deal in life.

[Funzlerks]

Is it the same actor? Getting cast in a TV series really makes kids go through some amazing puberties.  Rickon made Ramsay look pretty small.  Maisie Williams looks very similar, just older but Sansa, Bran, and Rickon sure grew up from Season 1.  

All the remaining Starks and Snow have been POV from the start.  Will they all make it to the end?  I feel like one of them is going to die near the end.  Just one and I am not sure which one.  I don't think it will be Jon because I feel like it is mainly his story and it will be meaningful if he makes it through.  I think Bran will make it, so now I just wonder if it will be Arya or Sansa who dies.

 Arya lives more dangerously so I kind of feel like it would be ironic if she made it.  Because what place does she have in the world now?  I think the traveling actor life appealed to her, but she is a Stark.  She has been an assassin, what does she do in Westeros?  She can't just be a knight like Brienne, that isn't her at all.  Bran and Jon have interesting possibilities and conflict between their lineages and destinies.  Sansa seems like she could marry any of a half dozen lords and be alright.  What story does she have at the end if she isn't some sort of ruler?  I feel like she is the most likely to have her narrative purpose run out.  Though I, personally, am very interested in her future.

[Constantinople]

1 hour ago, bunnyblue said:

Awww, look at that poor sweet little boy. Kid got a shit deal in life.

Rickon too.

[bunnyblue]

13 minutes ago, Funzlerks said:

Is it the same actor?

Yup, same actor - Art Parkinson. Even though we hadn't seen him in 2 seasons and  he didn't even say one word this season, I'm glad he was willing to come back to play Rickon's death. That way it made it more emotional for me. 

15 minutes ago, Funzlerks said:

All the remaining Starks and Snow have been POV from the start.  Will they all make it to the end?

Of the 4 remaining Stark kids, I think 1 or 2 will likely die before this is all over. I rank 'em from most likely to die to least likely to die: Arya, Jon, Sansa, Bran.

[Lady S.]

10 minutes ago, bunnyblue said:

Yup, same actor - Art Parkinson. Even though we hadn't seen him in 2 seasons and  he didn't even say one word this season, I'm glad he was willing to come back to play Rickon's death. That way it made it more emotional for me. 

I think Art even grew a resemblance to Kitten with the long face and the shaggy mop of curls.

[paigow]

On 23/06/2016 at 0:10 AM, Constantinople said:

Rickon will go down in history as The Running Stark.

Whenever dance clubs get built in Winterfell.....this is what all the kids will be doing...

[Luckylyn]

I made a video about Jon, Sansa, Arya, and Bran

[Ambrosefolly]

Personally, I want at least one scene with the remaining Stark children holding court, with 75% less fucks given.

[SimoneS]

On 5/26/2016 at 7:22 PM, Hecate7 said:

A child is a child. A woman would have the option to leave, but most do not make a distinction between a child he had by a wife and a child he had by his mistress. A child he had with someone else while married usually prompts a divorce nowadays, but the woman who chooses to stay doesn't get to decide which of her husband's children she'll accept, based on their mothers. The important thing is that they are his kids. If she's his wife, that makes them hers, too.

 

Compare Sams's reaction to Little Sam, with Cat's reaction to Jon Snow.

That sounds like a Lifetime movie or a Jerry Springer episode. I cannot imagine many scenarios in which this would even happen. It isn't even about the woman. I cannot imagine a married men taking custody of a child with their deceased mistress whether or not they intend to stay married. They would park that kid with a relative on his deceased mother's side or his family and no one would blink an eye. Children born out of wedlock in our society are still stigmatized by a lot of people.

Edited July 21, 2016 by SimoneS

[qtpye]

This video proves one thing.  Rob, Jon, Arya, Sansa,....the Starks are some beautiful people.  I always cry at Stark tribute videos, not just for all the murdered Starks, but also for the dire wolves that died before their time.

[YaddaYadda]

Kind of late to the party since it's a few pages back, but this is regarding Ned and Cersei and him going to her directly to confront her and give her the chance to leave KL.

I always thought that the reason Ned did that was because of his sister and how he had been protecting her child all those years from anyone who might wanna kill him, starting with Robert. He protect Jon's identity and life by passing him off as his bastard, and Cersei protected her children's identities and lives by passing them off as Robert's. 

And there was all that talk about having Dany murdered even though she was across the Narrow Sea. And I think it just played on his compassion. He didn't go to Cersei for her sake. He went to Cersei for the sake of her children whom he believed to be innocent. It's the same way he viewed Jon and Dany. He went to Cersei and appealed to her good sense as a mother who would want to protect her children. 

But Cersei is Cersei and she just went a whole another direction to protect her kids and herself. Ned was never going to deliver 3 kids on a silver platter to people that would harm them, not after he kept Jon's identity a secret for so long, not when he got into a row with Robert over Dany. 

Back to your regular programming.

Edited July 22, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[TaurusRose]

On 5/27/2016 at 2:58 PM, SeanC said:

Because the baby's presence is a huge, ongoing insult to her.

And per the author, Catelyn mainly ignored Jon.  She wasn't looking to make his life miserable every day.

Being emotionally distant to a child (who can clearly feel the difference in his/her treatment in the family dynamic) makes the child in question miserable.  It's also abusive in a passive-aggressive way.  Catelyn was a bitch for her treatment of Jon (her later admission to Robb's wife didn't make her sympathetic in my eyes, it just hardened my hatred for her).  The way she hissed at Jon when he said good-bye to Bran showed me without a doubt the depth of her loathing and hatred for him.  I don't think for a minute that was the first time she behaved like that towards Jon.  I don't care how insulted she was, she didn't have to be so cold, but then again, Catelyn didn't have a better nature.  She only cared about her children.  And while I despised her and danced at her death, Ned should never have allowed Jon to be treated so wretchedly.  I double down on the sentiment now that we know Jon is his sister's child.  Ned's silent tolerance condoned Catelyn's behavior and added to Jon's misery.  In this he was a fucking wuss.

[SeanC]

28 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

Being emotionally distant to a child (who can clearly feel the difference in his/her treatment in the family dynamic) makes the child in question miserable.  It's also abusive in a passive-aggressive way.  

That assumes she should otherwise owe Jon affection, when she has no relationship to him.  She isn't his stepmother, and never assumed any obligations toward him.

Quote

I don't think for a minute that was the first time she behaved like that towards Jon.  

Take it up with George R.R. Martin.

Quote

She only cared about her children.  

She cared the most about her children.  Hardly unusual.

Edited July 23, 2016 by SeanC

[Jazzy24]

14 hours ago, taurusrose said:

Being emotionally distant to a child (who can clearly feel the difference in his/her treatment in the family dynamic) makes the child in question miserable.  It's also abusive in a passive-aggressive way.  Catelyn was a bitch for her treatment of Jon (her later admission to Robb's wife didn't make her sympathetic in my eyes, it just hardened my hatred for her).  The way she hissed at Jon when he said good-bye to Bran showed me without a doubt the depth of her loathing and hatred for him.  I don't think for a minute that was the first time she behaved like that towards Jon.  I don't care how insulted she was, she didn't have to be so cold, but then again, Catelyn didn't have a better nature.  She only cared about her children.  And while I despised her and danced at her death, Ned should never have allowed Jon to be treated so wretchedly.  I double down on the sentiment now that we know Jon is his sister's child.  Ned's silent tolerance condoned Catelyn's behavior and added to Jon's misery.  In this he was a fucking wuss.

I don't like Catelyn. She's stuck up, classist, cold, suspicious and overall unapproachable. But I don't think she abused Jon. Yeah she didn't do a good job of ignoring him cause obviously Jon said she gave him looks and he obviously knew she wanted him gone from Winterfell. And no she had no obligation to him. She's not his mother(thank gawd)he was Ned's responsibility. She had every right to be offended by his presence. My problem with her was her taking out her anger on Jon and not Ned. Jon was the most innocent person in this situation and he suffered the most IMO. 

Catelyn is a good mother to HER children she's not maternal to other kids and that's more than okay. And tho I feel a little bit for the situation Catelyn was in I can't really feel all that bad for her because she had a damn good life in Winterfell before the events in ASOIAF. She had five healthy children, was a daughter and a wife of a great lords, part of that 1% elite of nobles, so Jon Snow didn't make even a tiny dent in her good life. 

I can't really blame Ned for not saying anything he already took away any say Catelyn had about Jon so I think he gave her that tiny agency to express her anger. But Ned did the best he could IMO given the situation. His main priority was protecting Jon and he did. 

[TaurusRose]

21 hours ago, SeanC said:

That assumes she should otherwise owe Jon affection, when she has no relationship to him.  She isn't his stepmother, and never assumed any obligations toward him.

Take it up with George R.R. Martin.

She cared the most about her children.  Hardly unusual.

Item 1.  WHAT?  One doesn't need to have a BLOOD relationship to a child to treat said child kindly.  If she LOVED Ned so fucking much, her obligation should have been that Jon was her husband's child.  And if you want to dismiss obligation how about human decency towards (in her words) a motherless child?  The circumstances of his birth was not his fault.  Item 2.  Fuck GRRM.  He put something out there and it's open to interpretation by his audience.  I don't pay his blatherings any attention.   Item 3.  Caring about one's children to the exclusion of all other children IS unusual.  It's hardwired in most people to care for the young and helpless.

Quote

I don't like Catelyn. She's stuck up, classist, cold, suspicious and overall unapproachable. But I don't think she abused Jon.  She had five healthy children, was a daughter and a wife of a great lords, part of that 1% elite of nobles, so Jon Snow didn't make even a tiny dent in her good life. 

Items 1 & 3. Totally agree.  Items 2.  YMMV on abuse.  There are many forms of abuse and IMO she was abusive.

Edited July 23, 2016 by taurusrose

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, taurusrose said:

Item 1.  WHAT?  One doesn't need to have a BLOOD relationship to a child to treat said child kindly.  If she LOVED Ned so fucking much, her obligation should have been that Jon was her husband's child.  And if you want to dismiss obligation how about human decency towards (in her words) a motherless child?  

One doesn't need a blood relationship, no.  But there is no reason to expect any woman to have affection for the product of her husband's affair when he's been brought into her household against her wishes.  She simply ignored him most of the time, which is letting Ned manage his son on his own.

Quote

Item 3. Caring about one's children to the exclusion of all other children IS unusual. It's hardwired in most people to care for the young and helpless.

She didn't care about her children to the exclusion of all other children.  She cared about her children most.

Edited July 24, 2016 by SeanC

[qtpye]

This question makes it seem like I am defending Catelyn, but I am not.  This is a honest question on my part.

If Catelyn came home pregnant with another man's child, would anyone expect Ned to raise the child with love?

 I do agree that one does not have to be blood to love a child, but Catelyn just did not feel that way.  I do not like her for it, but it is very human.

[Jazzy24]

37 minutes ago, qtpye said:

This question makes it seem like I am defending Catelyn, but I am not.  This is a honest question on my part.

If Catelyn came home pregnant with another man's child, would anyone expect Ned to raise the child with love?

 I do agree that one does not have to be blood to love a child, but Catelyn just did not feel that way.  I do not like her for it, but it is very human.

Ned would never raise that child and would send him/her away most likely to Riverrun. 

But Catelyn's child would not have Stark blood so would therefore not have a place in Winterfell. 

And though Jon is a bastard he is still a son/blood of Winterfell and that matters. 

[Enigma X]

49 minutes ago, qtpye said:

This question makes it seem like I am defending Catelyn, but I am not.  This is a honest question on my part.

If Catelyn came home pregnant with another man's child, would anyone expect Ned to raise the child with love?

 I do agree that one does not have to be blood to love a child, but Catelyn just did not feel that way.  I do not like her for it, but it is very human.

I would expect Ned not ro be blame the child and be an asshat. Whether he raised him or not, I couldn't give two shits. 

In these situations, I will always be on the kid being treated as the innocent. Well, it just makes sense to me. 

I never expected Cat to love Jon, but her annoyance by him (and if child Jon noticed it, it was too much imo) was cruel. All of that should have been directed toward Ned for conceiving him and bringing him home.

Edited July 24, 2016 by Enigma X

[Jazzy24]

I remember Catelyn saying that Ned bringing Jon home and raising him was unusual but if I remember correctly there have been three Stark bastards that has been mentioned(Brandon and Lonnel Snow and Lord Cregan's bastard sister)and it seems to be hinted at that they were all raised in Winterfell. So taking care of their bastards does seem like a Stark thing to do.

[YaddaYadda]

10 hours ago, qtpye said:

This question makes it seem like I am defending Catelyn, but I am not.  This is a honest question on my part.

If Catelyn came home pregnant with another man's child, would anyone expect Ned to raise the child with love?

 I do agree that one does not have to be blood to love a child, but Catelyn just did not feel that way.  I do not like her for it, but it is very human.

I think it's debatable. But Ned didn't blame Cersei's children for being born out of an incestuous relationship. He blamed the adults for what they'd done. He also tried to protect those kids. So maybe he'd put the blame where the blame should go (if the relationship was consensual) as opposed to blaming a child that had nothing to do with it.

While Jon grew up with the same privileges as his "siblings", Ned did kind of keep him at arm's length a bit. I guess he might have treated a bastard by Catelyn the same? I've always wondered how much Jon's looks played in her resentment since he looked more like a Stark than her own children (save for Arya). But then, if Jon had looked like his other parent, she might have resented that too.

Shit is complicated!

Edited July 24, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[Jazzy24]

2 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

I think it's debatable. But Ned didn't blame Cersei's children for being born out of an incestuous relationship. He blamed the adults for what they'd done. He also tried to protect those kids. So maybe he'd put the blame where the blame should go (if the relationship was consensual) as opposed to blaming a child that had nothing to do with it.

While Jon grew up with the same privileges as his "siblings", Ned did kind of keep him at arm's length a bit. I guess he might have treated a bastard by Catelyn the same? I've always wondered how much Jon's looks played in her resentment since he looked more like a Stark than her own children (save for Arya). But then, if Jon had looked like his other parent, she might have resented that too.

Shit is complicated!

How did Ned kinda keep Jon at arm's length? 

[Hana Chan]

1 hour ago, Jazzy24 said:

How did Ned kinda keep Jon at arm's length? 

Well, Ned never petitioned to Robert to have Jon legitimized. Despite raising Jon with his own children, Jon still had to live with the stigma of being a bastard and had no real potential for any kind of advancement outside of joining the Night Watch. I know that it could be argued that he was protecting his actual children's rights of inheritance, but Jon did suffer as a result. Even to be a knight under Robb's rule (which Jon, I think, would have been more than fine with) and marry was denied Jon.

[Jazzy24]

3 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

Well, Ned never petitioned to Robert to have Jon legitimized. Despite raising Jon with his own children, Jon still had to live with the stigma of being a bastard and had no real potential for any kind of advancement outside of joining the Night Watch. I know that it could be argued that he was protecting his actual children's rights of inheritance, but Jon did suffer as a result. Even to be a knight under Robb's rule (which Jon, I think, would have been more than fine with) and marry was denied Jon.

Just cause Jon suffered from being a bastard does not mean Ned kept him at arm's length. 

And how was Jon denied from being a knight and married under Robb's rule? He wasn't all. Infect I think Ned wanted to keep Jon at Winterfell at all cost. If Jon didn't go to the NW when Robb ruled he certainly would have kept Job close. 

Jon easily could have got holdings in the North and married he was never denied that. Jon didn't get that because he wanted to go into the NW and make his own way. 

Ned is constantly called cold by a lot of people even his wife. But we never see his children calling Ned cold. I think Ned was a very loving father with his children and they never got anything else from him even Jon. 

[TaurusRose]

On 7/23/2016 at 9:20 PM, SeanC said:

She didn't care about her children to the exclusion of all other children.  She cared about her children most.

I saw no evidence that Catelyn cared about any child who wasn't pulled from her body.  As a matter of fact, I saw no evidence that she cared about anyone she wasn't personally tied to.  HER husband, HER children.  She was distant and arrogant towards everyone else.

[Jazzy24]

2 hours ago, taurusrose said:

I saw no evidence that Catelyn cared about any child who wasn't pulled from her body.  As a matter of fact, I saw no evidence that she cared about anyone she wasn't personally tied to.  HER husband, HER children.  She was distant and arrogant towards everyone else.

To be fair she did pray for the soldiers in the sept in the Riverlands. 

But I agree with this that Catelyn didn't care for anyone that wasn't her children, husband or the Tullys. But some people are like that so I won't hold it against her. 

[Ambrosefolly]

On May 25, 2016 at 3:01 PM, armadillo1224 said:

If he had a child from a previous marriage, sure but a child he had during an extramarital affair while they were married? You really think a typical woman would be okay raising the child of her husband's adulterous affair? I wouldn't be that confident of it.

 

On May 26, 2016 at 7:22 PM, Hecate7 said:

A child is a child. A woman would have the option to leave, but most do not make a distinction between a child he had by a wife and a child he had by his mistress. A child he had with someone else while married usually prompts a divorce nowadays, but the woman who chooses to stay doesn't get to decide which of her husband's children she'll accept, based on their mothers. The important thing is that they are his kids. If she's his wife, that makes them hers, too.

Compare Sams's reaction to Little Sam, with Cat's reaction to Jon Snow.

For one thing, Gilly (little Sam's mother) was already pregnant with LS when she met Sam and Gilly and was being victimized by her husband/father. There is a world of difference between a woman that had a child by rape and a man who bedded a woman while away from his wife. Plus, Cat had no idea who Jon's mother was and was forbidden to ever ask Ned about her, unlike Sam, who knew that Little Sam was fathered by one of the worst human beings in the entire world.

Cat didn't have a whole host of options either. She already gave her virginity to Ned and had his true born son, who was Ned's heir, which means her choice of husbands were limited if she had even any, since she wasn't a widow. She could have gone back to Riverrunn, but sooner or later Robb would have to be sent back to Winterfell (or possibly fostered at another Lord's castle) in order to learn to be the Warden of the North and if he went back to Winterfell, she would want to be with her son. A ride between Riverrun and Winterfell could take days, if not weeks, so it isn't like there would be weekend visitation. It sounded like it was customary if a Lord had a bastard(s), those children would be fostered elsewhere, especially if the wife was alive and he had his own true born children, so what Ned for Jon was somewhat unusual. When your husband is known to be honorable to a literal fault, except for that one thing, and that one thing involved betraying you and everyone you interact with on a daily basis being reminded of that, a lot of women probably would have a tough time excepting the product of infidelity. 

[Lady S.]

On 7/23/2016 at 10:10 PM, Jazzy24 said:

I remember Catelyn saying that Ned bringing Jon home and raising him was unusual but if I remember correctly there have been three Stark bastards that has been mentioned(Brandon and Lonnel Snow and Lord Cregan's bastard sister)and it seems to be hinted at that they were all raised in Winterfell. So taking care of their bastards does seem like a Stark thing to do.

 Being mentioned doesn't tell us anything about how those kids were raised, just that at least 3 previous Stark bastards recognized by their fathers in the past 300 years. They could have been fostered anywhere in the North. If bastards traditionally always had a place at Winterfell and they eschewed having them raised from birth with others, I'd expect it to come up in Jon's or Catelyn's narrative. Neither was aware of such a tradition, though Jon was otherwise pretty informed on Stark/Northern history/culture. 

[Hecate7]

On 8/3/2016 at 11:24 PM, Ambrosefolly said:

 

For one thing, Gilly (little Sam's mother) was already pregnant with LS when she met Sam and Gilly and was being victimized by her husband/father. There is a world of difference between a woman that had a child by rape and a man who bedded a woman while away from his wife. Plus, Cat had no idea who Jon's mother was and was forbidden to ever ask Ned about her, unlike Sam, who knew that Little Sam was fathered by one of the worst human beings in the entire world.

Cat didn't have a whole host of options either. She already gave her virginity to Ned and had his true born son, who was Ned's heir, which means her choice of husbands were limited if she had even any, since she wasn't a widow. She could have gone back to Riverrunn, but sooner or later Robb would have to be sent back to Winterfell (or possibly fostered at another Lord's castle) in order to learn to be the Warden of the North and if he went back to Winterfell, she would want to be with her son. A ride between Riverrun and Winterfell could take days, if not weeks, so it isn't like there would be weekend visitation. It sounded like it was customary if a Lord had a bastard(s), those children would be fostered elsewhere, especially if the wife was alive and he had his own true born children, so what Ned for Jon was somewhat unusual. When your husband is known to be honorable to a literal fault, except for that one thing, and that one thing involved betraying you and everyone you interact with on a daily basis being reminded of that, a lot of women probably would have a tough time excepting the product of infidelity. 

Again, you're judging the sex, not the child. It's not about the sex. The parent was involved in the sex. The child was not.

Edited August 5, 2016 by Hecate7

[Ambrosefolly]

1 hour ago, Hecate7 said:

Again, you're judging the sex, not the child. It's not about the sex. The parent was involved in the sex. The child was not.

I am not judging the sex, I am judging the circumstances. Cat's circumstances were vastly different than Sam's. Say Sam was the Lord of Horn Hill and had been married to Gilly, but went off to war for a long period of time, and when he came back, Gilly was pregnant with another man's child because one night she got really lonely, would Sam treat that child the same way he treats Little Sam? I think not, despite how nice Sam is. He might not be as mean as Cat was, but he would be within in his rights to send her child away (maybe even divorce Gilly if such a thing is possible). If he didn't want to look weak, but still be kind, he should send the child away to be fostered at another house. But he would not give that child the full rights of any of his children and would prefer his own true born kids to him because Gilly's first born would be the product of infidelity. Gilly never betrayed Sam, I don't think she has even lied to him. The conception of Little Sam was a crime that Sam is very well aware of and happened before Sam ever met Gilly.

If Cat learned that Jon was her nephew (whether a true born of bastard), I really believe she would have treated him kinder since Jon in actuality wouldn't be a product of Ned's betrayal, nor would she fight Ned if Ned insisted that Jon remain close in order to protect him and to grow up with their own children.

[Hecate7]

Edric Storm did in fact go near Robert, but Robert didn't care for any of his bastards the way Ned did Jon Snow. Funny how nobody found Ned's care of his own bastard the slightest bit suspicious.

[YaddaYadda]

12 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

Edric Storm did in fact go near Robert, but Robert didn't care for any of his bastards the way Ned did Jon Snow. Funny how nobody found Ned's care of his own bastard the slightest bit suspicious.

Yeah, but at the same time, Robert fucked around because he wanted to, because he could. He had sex with Edric's mother in Stannis and Selyse's marriage bed because he thought it would be fun. And the only reason he recognized him as his was because the mother was a noble.

I wonder if the reason no one ever got suspicious of Ned bringing Jon to Winterfell and raising him along with the other children didn't have to do with people thinking that the mother was Ashara and all the rumors that swirled around them that they had been in love.

Edited August 6, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[Chris24601]

4 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

Yeah, but at the same time, Robert fucked around because he wanted to, because he could. He had sex with Edric's mother in Stannis and Selyse's marriage bed because he thought it would be fun. And the only reason he recognized him as his was because the mother was a noble.

I wonder if the reason no one ever got suspicious of Ned bringing Jon to Winterfell and raising him along with the other children didn't have to do with people thinking that the mother was Ashara and all the rumors that swirled around them that they had been in love.

I think the Ashara theory being commonly accepted, at least among the people who would care, is probably the case.

If Ned had been in love with Ashara, but forced to marry Cat out of familial duty, it gives a sort of plausible reason for why Ned might 'forget his honor' for a night (far from Cat, about to go into a battle where he could perish and here's the woman he actually loved).

I'm not sure if we know the precise timing of Ashara's suicide, only that it was after Ned returned Dawn to the Dayne family, but if it was close enough to Ned's arrival you could easily weave the narrative that Ned only took the child because the child's mother would have left him an orphan had Ned not claimed him and after already losing his father, older brother and just losing his sister... how could Ned NOT cling to all was left of a woman he had loved deeply?

It has just enough ring of something poor honor-bound Ned would do both in terms of his reason for being unfaithful and in his overboard approach to penance for the act for it to probably be seen as the truth by most.

Heck, even Ned's bad lying and mentioning Wylla when pressed by Robert could be seen as Ned trying to preserve the honor of his long dead love by not attributing the child to her and instead to some commoner.

The other thing that really protected the secret (in addition to not telling anyone) was that he didn't do the one thing that anyone else who would want to look into the child's origins would expect... NOTHING. If anyone else who cared about the child's origins had gotten hold of the true heir to the Iron Throne to raise they would have been preparing them for the moment where they could use that child to seize the throne from Robert, particularly after Ned's spat with Robert over murdering Rhaegar's children.

But other than taking the child home with him, Ned did NOTHING in line with such a power play. No unusual marriage alliances (heck, Robert had to practically force Ned to betroth Sansa to Joffrey and no plans had been made at all for Robb despite him being an adult by Westerosi standards) or other attempts at alliances. No stockpiling of war supplies or building up of military forces. They couldn't even imagine that Ned would let such an opportunity go to waste and so the only conclusion was that there was no actual opportunity... Ned's bastard was just his bastard.

[Lady S.]

I don't think Ned's treatment of Jon was so unheard of as to be suspicious, it just wasn't the usual situation. Even if Jon was the product of a ONS with some chick named Wylla, it would make sense that the otherwise perfectly honorable Ned Stark, with his fixation on personal responsibility would go above and beyond in taking care of his bastard and never try to hide from his one great sin. Everybody sins so it would be gratifying to know that the oh-so-noble Ned could slip up too, even for only one night, but since adultery and siring illegitimate children weren't as normal to him as to other men then of course he'd treat this child differently than most men would. Catelyn thought Jon's mother was likely Ned's lost love and that was why he kept Jon close, but I doubt people outside the situation would give it too much thought. Also, most people who had never seen Catelyn with Jon (which would probably mean anyone who didn't live at Winterfell) might assume she was unusual enough to be fine with the arrangement, even while some might look down on her for not having more pride. 

[RedheadZombie]

On July 24, 2016 at 0:25 PM, Hana Chan said:

Well, Ned never petitioned to Robert to have Jon legitimized. Despite raising Jon with his own children, Jon still had to live with the stigma of being a bastard and had no real potential for any kind of advancement outside of joining the Night Watch. I know that it could be argued that he was protecting his actual children's rights of inheritance, but Jon did suffer as a result. Even to be a knight under Robb's rule (which Jon, I think, would have been more than fine with) and marry was denied Jon.

I think Ned didn't have Jon legitimized for a couple of reasons.  First, his honor may have gotten in the way.  He lied to protect Jon, but it's furthering that lie to get him legitimized.   But primarily I think it was to further protect Jon.  Sure people at Winterfell and even other families in the north knew Jon as Ned's child, but legitimizing him would bring unwanted attention throughout the kingdom.  More scrutiny increases the danger.   I think that may be the reason Ned didn't intervene with Cat's treatment of Jon.  While he would in no way have wanted Jon to experience that rejection, Cat's bitterness strengthened the belief that Jon was her husband's bastard.  

One thing that Ned could have done was given Jon to someone he trusted to raise - Howland Reed, for example.  If Ned wanted to eliminate anyone ever suspecting Jon's parentage, being raised by Reed would be less suspicious.  But I think Ned wanted Jon near because he was the last of Lyanna.  I think Jon may have been his favorite because of that.  And that may have been the root of Cat's jealousy.  

[bunnyblue]

9 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

But I think Ned wanted Jon near because he was the last of Lyanna.  I think Jon may have been his favorite because of that.  And that may have been the root of Cat's jealousy.  

Yeah, I don't think there was ever any chance Ned was going to give Jon to anyone else to raise because of various reasons (Jon's the last of Lyanna, to keep his promise to his sister, the boy was his blood, and most importantly to keep him safe) but I never got the impression that Jon was Ned's favorite. I give that distinction to Robb. In the show, Jon told Sam he was envious of the way Ned looked at Robb. And in the books, doesn't Ned feel guilty for keeping Jon at arms length? I attribute Catelyn's hatred and jealousy of Jon to the fact that he was the product of an affair, that she was forced to watch him grow up under her roof, and that the bastard looked more like Ned than any of her precious trueborn children (save for wild Arya). I think Ned did too good of a job in not favoring Jon, which is why Jon is so damn mopey and reserved.

[Jazzy24]

1 hour ago, bunnyblue said:

Yeah, I don't think there was ever any chance Ned was going to give Jon to anyone else to raise because of various reasons (Jon's the last of Lyanna, to keep his promise to his sister, the boy was his blood, and most importantly to keep him safe) but I never got the impression that Jon was Ned's favorite. I give that distinction to Robb. In the show, Jon told Sam he was envious of the way Ned looked at Robb. And in the books, doesn't Ned feel guilty for keeping Jon at arms length? I attribute Catelyn's hatred and jealousy of Jon to the fact that he was the product of an affair, that she was forced to watch him grow up under her roof, and that the bastard looked more like Ned than any of her precious trueborn children (save for wild Arya). I think Ned did too good of a job in not favoring Jon, which is why Jon is so damn mopey and reserved.

Ned NEVER kept Jon at arms length why do people keep saying this? 

The show having Jon say stuff like that about being envious of the way Ned looked at Robb is stupid. 

In the books it seemed that Ned treated ALL his sons equally. I'm pretty sure that where Robb went or did Jon was by his side doing the same thing. Jon never recalls how Ned kept him at arms length or was distant with him. Many people say that Ned is a cold and distant person in the books including his wife, but his children never think he was cold. So no Ned never held Jon at arms length and I'm pretty sure that Ned showed him as much love as his own children. 

The only time Ned would show Robb any favor would probably be when he is teaching him how to be the Lord of the North.  

[FnkyChkn34]

I don't know if this is rumor, fan theory, speculation, or confirmed...  Are all Stark kids wargs?  

Obviously Bran is.  There was a hint that Jon is too, wasn't there?  And maybe there was a hint for Robb as well, but I've seen nothing for Sansa.  And I don't really have any idea what Arya is at this point...

[glowbug]

1 hour ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I don't know if this is rumor, fan theory, speculation, or confirmed...  Are all Stark kids wargs?  

Obviously Bran is.  There was a hint that Jon is too, wasn't there?  And maybe there was a hint for Robb as well, but I've seen nothing for Sansa.  And I don't really have any idea what Arya is at this point...

I think only Bran is a warg in the show, but they are all wargs in the books. Bran, Jon and Arya all warged into their wolves in the books, and Bran has also warned into Hodor. Sansa hasn't been shown to warg in her chapters but I believe that's because Lady was killed before she could. Robb and Rickon never had POV chapters so we don't ever see them warg into their wolves but according to GRRM all of the Stark children are wargs to some degree, though some are stronger than others. 

[Tikichick]

Can anyone help me out by explaining a bit about Ned's upbringing?  Am I correct in remembering that he was fostered, along with Robert Barratheon, as wards of Jon Arryn?  Do we know why that would have been?

Is it not strange for the eldest son in the case of House Barratheon?

It kind of boggles the mind that the man widely regarded as just about as much Northern and Stark as one could be may not have been raised at WF by his Stark parents -- unless I'm misunderstanding the actual situation, which is entirely possible given Ned's extreme devotion to his sister.  

[FnkyChkn34]

1 hour ago, Tikichick said:

Can anyone help me out by explaining a bit about Ned's upbringing?  Am I correct in remembering that he was fostered, along with Robert Barratheon, as wards of Jon Arryn?  Do we know why that would have been?

Is it not strange for the eldest son in the case of House Barratheon?

It kind of boggles the mind that the man widely regarded as just about as much Northern and Stark as one could be may not have been raised at WF by his Stark parents -- unless I'm misunderstanding the actual situation, which is entirely possible given Ned's extreme devotion to his sister.  

It might be strange, but maybe they were able to learn more there with Arryn than they could have on their own?  This is what I get from A Wiki of Ice and Fire (it doesn't elaborate much):

Youth

Eddard Stark was born the second son of Lord Rickard Stark and Lady Lyarra Stark. He had one older brother, Brandon, and two younger siblings, Lyanna and Benjen.[11][12]

Eddard was fostered by Lord Jon Arryn at the Eyrie from the age of eight.[10][13] There, Eddard befriended his fellow ward, Robert Baratheon, while Lord Jon became like a second father to him.[10] When he reached the age of sixteen, Eddard was a man grown, and divided his time between Winterfell and the Eyrie.[14] During one of his visits to Winterfell, Eddard carried a wedding proposal from Robert to his father, Lord Rickard, who agreed to betroth his daughter Lyanna to Eddard's friend.[2][15] When Lyanna later expressed that her believe that Robert would never keep to one bed, having heard about Robert's bastard daughter in the Vale, Eddard recalled having seen the child, and is unable to deny her existence.[15]

In 281 AC, at the age of eighteen, Eddard came down from the Eyrie to go to the tourney at Harrenhal,[16] where, amongst others, Eddard's foster brother Robert Baratheon, his foster father Jon Arryn, and his three siblings, Brandon, Lyanna and Benjen were also present.[17] It was during this tourney that Eddard would meet Howland Reed, one of his father's bannermen. Howland and Eddard would remain friends for the rest of their lives. During the opening feast, Eddard saw Ashara Dayne, a lady-in-waiting to Princess Elia Martell. He would dance with her later that night, but only after his older brother Brandon had spoken to her on his behalf, since he himself was too shy.[17] Eddard was present during the final jousts, where Prince Rhaegar Targaryen passed over his own wife, Elia, to crown Lyanna the queen of love and beauty. Eddard would remember this moment as "the moment when all smiles died" years later.[16]

The following year, Eddard's sister Lyanna was allegedly abducted by Prince Rhaegar Targaryen.[18] Eddard's brother Brandon rode to King's Landing in anger, but when he threatened the crown prince, he was arrested. Lord Rickard Stark was summoned to King's Landing, and when he demanded a trial by combat, both he and Brandon were executed at the command of King Aerys II Targaryen.[19] Aerys's next step was to demand that Jon Arryn send him the heads of his former wards, Eddard and Robert. Jon refused and instead called his banners.[10]

[TarotQueen]

Fostering your children somewhere else is a super common way of forging alliances and patronage in fantasy in general, though not quite as common as marriage.  If Rickard Stark really did have the Southern ambitions planted in his head by his maester as Lady Dustin believed, then making a ally of the Vale was strategic, but I also think there is Royce blood in the Stark family tree so either is a good reason for Ned to have gone there.  It does seem strange for a first son like Robert though ... maybe his folks thought Stannis would leave a bad opinion with his hosts ...