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House Stark: Winter Is Coming


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No, it doesn't.  Can you point to anything in the text where Tyrion is indicated to be a famously learned man? (and merely evidence that he is learned is not evidence of a reputation for that)

 

I already pointed out where it is relevant on the show--it is very critical that Catelyn thinks of Tyrion in those terms. Had they not included that line, it would make more sense for her not to wonder why Tyrion would do something so inanely stupid as arm an assassin with his own dagger. But frankly anybody would know better-

-anybody over the age of 12, anyway.

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Lannister, Stark, and Baratheon are dissolving into nothing. The houses who allied against the Targaryens do seem to be coming apart very fast. Jon Snow, Danaerys, and Tyrion, in that order, have divested themselves of siblings.

 

When Tyrion wed Sansa, I gave a moan of dismay related more to what that does to his friendship and quasi-brotherhood with Jon Snow, than any other issue.

 

Otoh, Robb Stark never liked Tyrion. Ironically, if he had not hated Tyrion, and if the dire wolves, sensing his dislike, hadn't attacked Tyrion, Tyrion would have slept at Winterfell instead of the Inn, and he would never have been arrested and taken to the Eyrie at all. He'd have encountered Catelyn at Winterfell, and she would have seen the saddle design. Robb felt bad about his attitude towards Tyrion too late--had he prevailed upon Tyrion to stay, he would probably also have influenced Catelyn to consider the risk Tyrion had taken returning to Winterfell with the saddle design, and might well have agreed that the points Tyrion made about the dagger and the wager made sense. The whole war might have proceeded differently, or even been avoided altogether.

 

I'm not blaming Robb---his behavior makes perfect sense. It's just a sad irony.

Edited by Hecate7
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Otoh, Robb Stark never liked Tyrion. Ironically, if he had not hated Tyrion, and if the dire wolves, sensing his dislike, hadn't attacked Tyrion, Tyrion would have slept at Winterfell instead of the Inn, and he would never have been arrested and taken to the Eyrie at all. He'd have encountered Catelyn at Winterfell, and she would have seen the saddle design. Robb felt bad about his attitude towards Tyrion too late--had he prevailed upon Tyrion to stay, he would probably also have influenced Catelyn to consider the risk Tyrion had taken returning to Winterfell with the saddle design, and might well have agreed that the points Tyrion made about the dagger and the wager made sense.

Not true. 

Catelyn left Winterfell shortly after Chapter 14 and arrived in Chapter 18; Tyrion's return to Winterfell came at Chapter 24.

  She was long gone when he showed up.  And I don't see how Tyrion sleeping at Winterfell one night would have meant him remaining there until she got back.

 

And regardless, there's really no risk pertaining to his returning unless he knew that the Starks had started to suspect Lannister involvement and could somehow trace the dagger to him, neither of which he would have had any reason to suspect, from their vantage.

Edited by SilverStormm
Please tag ALL Book Talk. The mod note relating to this is 3 posts up.
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Not true. 

Catelyn left Winterfell shortly after Chapter 14 and arrived in Chapter 18; Tyrion's return to Winterfell came at Chapter 24. 

She was long gone when he showed up.  And I don't see how Tyrion sleeping at Winterfell one night would have meant him remaining there until she got back.

 

And regardless, there's really no risk pertaining to his returning unless he knew that the Starks had started to suspect Lannister involvement and could somehow trace the dagger to him, neither of which he would have had any reason to suspect, from their vantage.

 

I am impressed with your ability to quote chapter and verse, but it's not really a book thread, so I'm not really referring to the books here when I look at Catelyn or Robb's behavior. I do think that given a warmer reception and invited to stay, before the dire wolves and Rob snarled, Tyrion would easily have stayed a week, maybe longer. Lady Stark was already headed home, and had she not encountered Tyrion at the Inn, it would never have even occurred to her to arrest him. I'm not sure how she would have reacted to finding him at Winterfell, but I suspect things would have gone rather better for Robb, Cat, and Tyrion, had it turned out that way.

 

I am not sure whether Catelyn would consider it safe to let Tyrion leave Winterfell, if he'd witnessed that she had been away from Winterfell. Seems to me the same problem might exist in her mind regardless, since her apprehension has nothing to do in fact with what Tyrion does or does not know, and everything to do with what she imagines he must know. It sticks in my mind that he didn't even know about the assassination attempt until she told him. He'd been accompanying Snow to the Wall, so I think he missed all that stuff. Or is that wrong?

Edited by SilverStormm
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I am not sure whether Catelyn would consider it safe to let Tyrion leave Winterfell, if he'd witnessed that she had been away from Winterfell. Seems to me the same problem might exist in her mind regardless, since her apprehension has nothing to do in fact with what Tyrion does or does not know, and everything to do with what she imagines he must know. It sticks in my mind that he didn't even know about the assassination attempt until she told him. He'd been accompanying Snow to the Wall, so I think he missed all that stuff. Or is that wrong?

Nobody outside of the Winterfell inner circle ever found out about the assassination attempt, unless told about it by Catelyn, as when she accused Tyrion of the crime.

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Nobody outside of the Winterfell inner circle ever found out about the assassination attempt, unless told about it by Catelyn, as when she accused Tyrion of the crime.

 

But since her assumption was that the Lannisters all knew of it and had conspired on it together, she might still be afraid he "knew" that she'd been investigating. The whole trajectory of the story at that point is Catelyn making lots of assumptions in a panic about what Tyrion knew, when in fact he knew practically nothing.

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Really, rewatching this show now preparing for season 5, the Starks are just idiots except for Arya.

Robb is just incredibly stupid for breaking his vow to marry, should have just gone through with it and known he wasn't going to be able to get away with it consequence free.

Already mentioned Ned, just bad decisions after Robert died.

Bran, just don't care much about at all.

Robb and Ned just both me the most though. Should have been obvious what they did was going to have horrible consequences.

Heck you could throw in Greyjoy as an honorary Stark, more bad decisions.

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I started my blog because of reading a book.  I have correlated so many similarities that I decided to start noting them to see where it goes.  Now that I have finished the books series the link below is just one of many of my theories as to how I believe that certain story arc's may end based upon what I would do given the same information.

 

http://howthegameofthronesends.blogspot.com/2015/02/why-there-must-always-be-stark-in.html

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I've often thought myself as well that "there must always be a Stark at Winterfell,' wasn't just a saying related to the need for a feudal lord to mind their homefront but like "Winter is coming,' a reference to some much older truth buried in the sands of time-and that the Starks present calamity is not just a tragedy for them but may represent the breaking of some ancient contract which could have dire consequences for the whole realm.

 

Or in words FUCK the Lannister's, Bolton's, and Frey's-you've screwed all Seven Kingdoms and let's all pray that Ser Davos makes it back quickly from Skagos!

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Seeing what shits the Freys, Boltons, Lannisters and Littlefinger is, I might be in the minority it makes me so happy that Bran and Rickon are out there in the world. Since Littlefinger being a power-hungry sociopath caused all of this I would love the look on his face when he see them very much alive, and him realizing he never had the North through Sansa (not the mention the relief and happiness she would feel). 

 

I hope when Rickon show up, he associates people being like their house sigil and starts skinning some Boltons.

I hope that Bran possesses a tree and start killing some Frey/Bolton/Lannisters. Since Bran can effectively spy on anyone through space and time through just about any animal, he out Littlefinger to Sansa and lets Sansa take care of him.

Edited by SilverStormm
Tagged book potentially spoilery info
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Rickon is no more formidable than Sansa. Less, actually, since he doesn't have Vale guards or Littlefinger backing him up. He's got Osha. How does this make him able to take on the Boltons? Are we assuming he'll automatically be believed if he shows up saying he's Rickon? He might not even speak the language anymore.

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Not tomorrow, the best thing for him to do is stay out of all of this until he is big and strong enough to do something about it. I put my money on Osha over the Vale guards and Littlefinger. I really hope Rickon can hold on to his memories of his family and Osha at least tells him about being an heir to Winterfell and doesn't let him forget the Common Tongue. 

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When Rickon shows up with a giant fking Dire Wolf by his side that will kill at his command, not many people are going to question who he is.

 

ETA: the one thing the show runners have dropped that I wish they hadn't is Ayra's wolf dreams.  I kind of hope they might still bring them in - but her wolf dreams would have done a lot to establish the supernatural connection between the Starks and I think we need that right now. 

Edited by nksarmi
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Wondering who is going to get the pleasure of gutting Ramsay Bolton.  Will Sansa get to do it? Maybe it will be Theon.  Who do you think will put an end to the sadistic brat sitting in Winterfell?  

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None of which has anything to do with Tyrion being a well-known scholar, because he isn't.

 

Not the point. You just moved the goalpost. Tyrion is well-known as a learned man. His father would not allow him to become a Maester or study to become one, for obvious reasons. His value as a marriage pawn is more important to his family than any other potential he has, especially since his older brother eschewed marriage in favor of the King's Guard and staying faithful to Cersei.

 

There isn't any way for Tyrion's "career" to reflect his passion for learning when we first meet him. He cannot publish, he cannot run away and enter the Citadel. It's simply not an option. Without the Lannister money he can't afford to, and of course now he's a bit old to apprentice. With the Lannister money he's under Tywin's thumb and Tywin already forbade it. Nevertheless, Tyrion is all about books and learning. That is his passion, and although he cannot publish or make a name for himself as a professional scholar, he is known for his passion for books and learning. "My brother has his sword, I have my mind," he tells Jon Snow. Samwell Tarly isn't a famous scholar either, but we accept that a scholar is who he is. Arya isn't a professional man at arms, but we know that's who she is.

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Now this takes me back.

 

Not the point. You just moved the goalpost.

No, I didn't.  If anything, this is a sideshow.  I was not disputing that Tyrion is learned; I was stating that he is not famous for being learned, and thus "he's too smart to do something that dumb" is not something that should necessarily have occurred to Catelyn or the other Starks (particularly since, as I said way back when, that's a bad defense anyway; smart people do dumb stuff all the time).

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And regardless, there's really no risk pertaining to his returning unless he knew that the Starks had started to suspect Lannister involvement and could somehow trace the dagger to him, neither of which he would have had any reason to suspect, from their vantage.

 

That is a good point. But if he'd paid the assassin, wouldn't he have avoided the place altogether? And wouldn't Robb and Catelyn consider that? My point was that if Tyrion hadn't left Winterfell to encounter Cat at the Inn she wouldn't have arrested him there.

 

It's possible that Tyrion's stay at Winterfell might have turned into an arrest, but I think not. I think the whole relationship between those characters would have gone a completely different direction.

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A question about the dead: Are the white walkers joined by all of the dead, or only the very recently dead? When they begin their march south, will graves and crypts empty to swell their ranks? Will they have all of the previous generations on their side? I suspect there are several things down in the crypts of Winterfell that will complicate the story either way.

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My guess ​Hectate7 is that the White Walkers are only joined by those dead they've killed themselves or that their undead soldiers killed.  Unfortunately they're quite good at killing and once you get to a certain mass of zombies it becomes a self-sustaining engine.  Plus they have the advantage of immortality so they can afford to take their time and build their wights army, make new White Walkers out of Craster's kids,  before they head south of the Wall.

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(edited)

My guess ​Hectate7 is that the White Walkers are only joined by those dead they've killed themselves or that their undead soldiers killed.  Unfortunately they're quite good at killing and once you get to a certain mass of zombies it becomes a self-sustaining engine.  Plus they have the advantage of immortality so they can afford to take their time and build their wights army, make new White Walkers out of Craster's kids,  before they head south of the Wall.

The only reason why I'm unsure about whether or not the Others use use old corpses in addition to fresh ones is because of what happened with Bran and the Reeds. The animated corpses who attacked them seemed like they'd been dead for ages. 

 

The other thing I'm unconvinced about is whether or not a wight needs to have been killed by an Other or a Wight. My guess is that it doesn't matter how the corpse was killed. The reason I feel this way is because of the way the wildlings are so certain that it's better to burn their dead even if they haven't been killed by an Other or a wight.

Edited by Avaleigh
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A question about the dead: Are the white walkers joined by all of the dead, or only the very recently dead? When they begin their march south, will graves and crypts empty to swell their ranks? Will they have all of the previous generations on their side? I suspect there are several things down in the crypts of Winterfell that will complicate the story either way.

There's a pretty solid theory that because the crypts are within Winterfell proper and were likely built by the same guy who built The Wall and might even run mostly under the Godswood proper that the crypts of Winterfell are enchanted to keep the dead, well, dead.

 

Further, in the books the wights have to be more or less fresh... if the marrow has been cracked open the dead might or might not be able to be animated but cannot move regardless. Anything that's decayed to a skeletal state (or reduced to a skeletal state, as appears to be common if you have to transport the remains any difference... there's a reason they refer to Ned's bones and not his body) wouldn't be usable as a wight.

 

Now the show made a mess of it by having straight up skeletons animating to attack Bran at the end of season four, but unless they decide for a straight up deviation from the books, GRRM's already established rules on wights will keep the dead of Winterfell rising from being a plot point.

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I agree that we aren't going to have to worry about the dead rising out of the crypts of Winterfell. 

 

It's Stannis's army that Ramsay didn't bother to burn because he has no idea. That's going to be the threat on the show IMO. With the emphasis on those overhead shots, I thought it was obvious that they're going to end up being a huge addition to the Other/wight army. 

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I agree that we aren't going to have to worry about the dead rising out of the crypts of Winterfell. 

 

I'm not so sure. But I do agree that the same enchantment that keeps the dead to one side of the Wall, is the one keeping them inside the Winterfell vaults. "There must be a Stark in Winterfell." I think this rule dates back to the first Starks to inhabit it, and that we're about to find out why Ned and Cat kept saying it, and what actually happens when there's not a Stark in Winterfell.

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Regarding the dead in the crypts, there's a similar theory (book stuff)

that Winterfell is the place were winter fell (ended).  It is the location of the last battle of the Long Night and the head of the Others was defeated and buried there, deep in the bottom of the crypts, behind a door much like the one that Sam used to get Bran through the Nightfort and under the Wall.  That is why earliest Stark burials are at the bottom rather than at the top of the crypts, and why the ground was never leveled before Winterfell proper was built - it was holding something very important deep under there that needed to stay there.  The buried Starks with their iron swords are serving as sentinels to help keep that Great Other or whatever it is behind that door.  Iron is used in mythology as a protection to keep restless spirits contained - iron shackles, iron doors, iron swords etc.  Now the swords are rusted away or were taken, and there are currently no Starks in Winterfell who could be buried there in the future with iron swords to protect the crypt. Winter is Coming - ever a reminder to stay vigilant and now winter is here. There Must Always Be a Stark in Winterfell - oops, no Starks there now. The North Remembers - oops, the North has forgotten to keep the Starks in Winterfell to keep this Thing at bay. Now that the protections are being broken, the Thing being held in the crypts is waking up and calling its minions - the Others north of the Wall - and it might itself break out. George loves his Lovecraft and it doesn't get much more Lovecraftian than that.

Edited by GreyBunny
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We have one flaw with this however,

the Whitewalkers are the first things we are introduced to and this happened before no Starks remained in Winterfell so why did the NK send the walkers? what happened that brought them back and because of that; the comet came signifying magic has returned along with dragons.

.

 

To me it saying

magic never left,or someone is practising the black arts

.

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I'm not so sure. But I do agree that the same enchantment that keeps the dead to one side of the Wall, is the one keeping them inside the Winterfell vaults. "There must be a Stark in Winterfell." I think this rule dates back to the first Starks to inhabit it, and that we're about to find out why Ned and Cat kept saying it, and what actually happens when there's not a Stark in Winterfell.

I think the Starks words are only partial and incomplete we have The North remembers, there must always be a Stark in Winterfell, for Winter is coming, so now ask why; and on top of this Yohn Royce has on his armour or cape with runes and their words are: We Remember, what do they remember? and then there is House Dayne and their words aren't known because I think GRRM said they give to much away.

Another thing Valayerian swords and the two most legendary swords namely ICE and Dawn are both needed we know where Dawn is and we know Brienne has 1/2 of Ice the other is still at KL, will Ice need to be reforged? or because it's only a 4or5 hundred year old Valayerian sword it's the WRONG ICE maybe the original ICE is buried deep in the crypts of Winterfell along with other things most notably

in Lyanna's tomb things proof for Jon   ( wedding cloak,Torrens Crown,small harp, wedding papers etc.) or needed by Jon or a Stark  to fight the walkers.

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We have one flaw with this however,

the Whitewalkers are the first things we are introduced to and this happened before no Starks remained in Winterfell so why did the NK send the walkers? what happened that brought them back and because of that; the comet came signifying magic has returned along with dragons.

.

 

To me it saying

magic never left,or someone is practising the black arts

.

 

Good points and I wondered about the timing myself.  My own personal crackpot is

That the awakening of whatever is in the crypts isn't a moment but a process.  As the various protections weaken over time this thing is slowly waking up.  The iron swords rusted long ago and were never replaced.  The Starks lost their status as kings and got booted down to lords 300 years ago and I wonder if that has anything to do with it (Robb being a king for 5 minutes doesn't count) but I kind of doubt it.  There are few starks left (apparently there was a succession crisis which is to be the subject of the 4th Dunk & Egg tale) and with them getting ousted from Winterfell, now there are none to be buried with fresh iron swords to keep guard.  The magic may have left for a while and the thing was truly dormant but now it and magic is coming back.  As for someone practicing dark magic, I don't think dark magic is being practiced by human in this particular case to wake this thing up.  It's doing it on its own.  Though dark magic has and is been practiced in various places for a long time per the World Book. 

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Good points and I wondered about the timing myself.  My own personal crackpot is

That the awakening of whatever is in the crypts isn't a moment but a process.  As the various protections weaken over time this thing is slowly waking up.  The iron swords rusted long ago and were never replaced.  The Starks lost their status as kings and got booted down to lords 300 years ago and I wonder if that has anything to do with it (Robb being a king for 5 minutes doesn't count) but I kind of doubt it.  There are few starks left (apparently there was a succession crisis which is to be the subject of the 4th Dunk & Egg tale) and with them getting ousted from Winterfell, now there are none to be buried with fresh iron swords to keep guard.  The magic may have left for a while and the thing was truly dormant but now it and magic is coming back.  As for someone practicing dark magic, I don't think dark magic is being practiced by human in this particular case to wake this thing up.  It's doing it on its own.  Though dark magic has and is been practiced in various places for a long time per the World Book. 

You bring up some good points maybe the time line of when it began started when Torren knelt, and may not end until A Stark enters the crypts and look into Lyanna's tomb, maybe

The Crown is there and it needs a Stark to wear it, maybe the original ICE (maybe the Starks were to return it and they didn't for what ever reason)

Tarley will find answers, Bran will guide but the crypt of Winterfell is the safe that must be unlocked.

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I think the Others were originally (book stuff) 

humans.  We see in the books that magic is transformative and that has a cost.  Mel and Moqorro have been practicing fire magic and shadowbinding for a long time and it is transforming them into something other than human.  Mel is using a glamour to presumably hide her advanced age and possibly some physical characteristics that suggest she's not completely human.  She no longer eats or sleeps.  Moqorro's skin isn't Summer Islander brown, it's black - burned.  There is something happening to him as well.  They're turning into fire beings.  The people of Asshai wear masks and long coverings, possibly because it's a toxic environment, but perhaps also to hide physical transformations that come about from practicing advanced magic for a long time.  It's my crackpot that, the same way that those who use fire magic are being changed, the Others were humans that began to use ice magic and over time they had used it to such a degree it transformed them into non-human ice beings.  If the Others were originally Children of the Forest then the same idea applies:  They used dark ice magic to the point where they are no longer CotF but had become ice creatures.

Edited by GreyBunny
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One more reason Ned was an idiot.  The first warning about the white walkers that came to Westeros was from Will, the deserter he executed.  He dismissed him completely as a liar or lunatic.  My how things might have been different if he wasn't such an egotistic dolt who must always do his duty, like some robotic idiot who can't see anything beyond his limited, extremely limited views. 

The fucking Crows didn't even believe that the White Walkers were real, that is why Jon was killed by 4 of them. They had been gone longer than Jesus Christ or even Abraham. They were bringing in the blue eyed corpses without burning them even after that incident. They mocked Sam when he told his brothers he had killed a White Walker.  While his brother Benjen confirmed that Will wasn't crazy or a coward and had seem some stuff as well, he gave vague reports at best to Ned. 

It was his job to execute deserters from the Night's Watch and maybe they should have been left to them instead of the Warden of the North, but that was the law. It wasn't like that deserter was riding to Winterfell to warn Ned because no one at the Night's Watch believed.  He was running away, to go "south as south goes", leaving everyone else to deal with the White Walker shit. And I am guessing that is why the "deserter execution" was put into place when it started thousand of years ago.

I think the majority of people in Ned's position would more likely to believe that some guy was abandoning his position at a place that was transformed into a glorified Penal Colony instead of the reappearance of things that was the subject of Old Nan's stories. 

Edited by Ambrosefolly
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So he couldn't have waited a day or so and checked it out? 

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Will: [to Ned, just before his execution] I know I broke my oath. I know I'm a deserter. I should've gone back to the Wall and warned them, but... I saw what I saw. I saw the White Walkers. People need to know. If you can get word to my family... tell 'em I'm no coward. Tell 'em I'm sorry.
[Ned pauses, then nods. The guards force Will onto the chopping block and Ned draws his sword]
Will: Forgive me, lord.
Eddard Stark: In the name of Robert of the House Baratheon, the First of His Name...
Jon Snow: [aside, to Bran] Don't look away. Father will know if you do.
Eddard Stark: ...Lord of the Seven Kingdoms, and Protector of the Realm, I, Eddard of the House Stark, Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North, sentence you to die.
[Ned decaptitates Will]
Jon Snow: [to Bran] You did well.

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It wouldn't be a day, but days or weeks. Again, playing the odds, the safest  bet was that the guy was lying or was imagining things. The way that GRRM and D&D set up the world, magic and the supernatural were very small and had as much precedent in their world as it does in ours. It is probably why Game of Thrones is so popular, because, at least initially, it was a world that was grounded in reality, so I believe that inhabitants no longer believed in magic, or it had left the world at least hundreds of years ago. Even with a trial, he did abandoned his post and even if the Night's Watch was the ones that dealt with deserters, Lord Commander Mormont would have still executed him even if he believed him because he did fully break his vows.  Besides, The Night's Watch was trying to warn others and were seeing the return of the White Walkers for themselves, but still couldn't get anyone to believe them.

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1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

So he couldn't have waited a day or so and checked it out? 

What does that have to do with sparing the guy's life? Not like the info didn't get passed on to the NW in the very same ep.

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NED: He was talking madness. Said the Walkers slaughtered his friends.
BENJEN: The two he was with are still missing.
NED: A wildling ambush.
BENJEN: Maybe. Direwolves south of the wall. Talk of the Walkers. My brother might be the next Hand to the king. Winter is coming.
NED: Winter is coming.

Benjen later went out to investigate and never came back. Will was the one keeping info from the NW by never going back to Castle Black and trying to hide. He didn't even bother pleading for mercy and actually accepted his fate. If he didn't want to fight the WWs, what was the alternative? Should Ned just have let him go home? Allowing people scared of the WWs to desert the NW would have been pretty counter-productive.

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On 5/18/2016 at 10:32 PM, Umbelina said:

So he couldn't have waited a day or so and checked it out? 

He could have, but why? If there were White Walkers, that still wouldn't have excused the man's desertion which he admitted to.

Will told Ned everything he knew (which Ned passed on to Benjen, who is supposed to deal with it as First Ranger), and then he was executed for a crime he admitted to.

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7 hours ago, Alapaki said:

Don't forget Ned's other "d'oh!" dialogue:

Renly: Ned, you've gotta lock those fucking Lannister murderers up!  Right now!  While you have the army!

Ned: Why?  I think Cersei killed Jon Arryn (the man who raised me and my brother-in-law); and she probably had something to do with Robert's (my brother-from-another-mother) death; and she's apparently been fucking her own brother and cranking out incestuous children.  Those are only three capital offenses.  I'm sure I can reason with her.

Renly: The fuck?

Ned: I mean, given everything I know and suspect, I'm still pretty sure Cersei and the Lannisters will set aside their violent tendencies and agree to talk this out and surrender peacefully.

Renly: See 'ya shithead!  

 

7 hours ago, kittykat said:

I'm currently rereading A Game of Thrones (parsing for subtext and nuance) and this is the short version of Ned and LF's relationship.

Ned: Dude I don't trust you.

LF: Good.  Smartest thing you've done so far.

Ned: But...my wife likes you so, I guess you're alright.

LF: That's nice bro but you should probably trust your instinct.

Ned: Yeah you're right.  But you've been helping me find Lord Arryn's murderer I feel that earns you a trust.

LF: No dude seriously, don't trust me.

Ned: And Varys thinks you're squirrely and I'm not so sure about him so...trust it is.

LF: Yeah I agree, don't trust him.  While you're at it don't trust me.

Ned: Wow you're gonna help me overthrow Joffrey for Stannis.  Righteous, let's do this.

LF:  How many times do I have to tell you nobody likes Stannis. *pulls Valyrian dagger* I TOLD YOU. NOT. TO. TRUST ME!!!

Sigh, stupid, forgetful Ned.

Just sayin'

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But he's an honorable idiot.

Ned's biggest problem was that instead of reading the room and going with what they wanted to further his investigations was that instead just focused on his own notion of what was right.  And he grossly underestimated Cersei.  As I said in the other thread, I just re read AGOT and he just expects Cersei to run from Kings Landing because he's discovered that her children are Jaime's despite the fact the entire Red Keep is full of HER ALLIES AND SPIES.  And LF had just told him to build his own network of spies but didn't do a very good job.  While it was Joffrey's fault that Ned died, it was Ned's own damn fault he lost the game in the first place.  Off to reread ACOK now.

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Well, technically, if Ned had a brain instead of so-called honor, the war would have never started.  I always though Ned's idiocy was the weakest plot point of all, and GRRM's worst example of writing.  He needed to set this all up, and to do that, he needed Ned to be stupid.

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(edited)

Ned's problem is he's used to discussing things openly with his allies, and then deciding on a course of action, and having everyone drop their problems once something is decided and all working together for the ultimate accomplishment of said plan even when some of them got overruled in the decision making process.
 

Quote

Ned: So, there it is. Cersei killed Jon Arryn, and sired 3 bastards off her brother and passed them off as the King's children. Stannis is the rightful king. What do you think we should do?

Littlefinger: Ok, ok. Just spitballing here, how about I get the City Watch on our side, we take everyone by surprise, you capture Joffrey and rule in his stead as Hand and Regent? You even have that decree from Robert which makes it all nice and legal.

Renly: I'm ok with that plan. I'd rather you make me King, but I understand that it's probably better for now to leave the succession in place. Also if Joff were to have a little 'accident' in a year or two once things have calmed down I'm on board with stepping in as his heir. 

Littlefinger: Ooo! I like that accident thing. That's a great idea!

Ned: Alright, I like that City Watch stuff, and the capturing but Stannis should be King.

Littlefinger: Heavily disagree. Like I am not going along with this if you do that.

Renly: Ditto also disagree.

Ned: Well I'm the Hand, so.... We're all gonna do what I want right? Right? Let's go Team Ned!

Littlefinger: Not okay with that name.

Renly: Yeah, did not agree to that either.

He expect Littlefinger (and to a certain extent Renly) to go along with his plan because he's the Hand. He's not used to people going off book, which is what everyone in King's Landing would do. 

Edited by Maximum Taco
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I mean if we really looked into things there are numerous people to blame for the war.  Ned because again...idiot, Cat for seizing Tyrion, Tywin for sending Clegane to ravage the Riverlands, Jaime for pushing Bran out the window sending Stark to KL, Sansa for telling Cersei of Ned's plan to leave KL, Robert for surrounding himself with Lannisters and yes men, Lysa for poisoning Jon Arryn, Littlefinger for pressuring Lysa to said poisoning, Littlefinger for naming Tyrion as the holder of the dagger so Cat would seize him so Tywin would go to war so Ned would react emotionally so Joffrey would sentence Ned to death so Mr. Mockingbird's twu wuv would be single again.  I'm sure I'm leaving others out.  There is no one person to blame, just a string of very bad decisions by various people.

On 5/18/2015 at 10:37 AM, EngradyPind said:

 

Wondering who is going to get the pleasure of gutting Ramsay Bolton.  Will Sansa get to do it? Maybe it will be Theon.  Who do you think will put an end to the sadistic brat sitting in Winterfell?  

 

Given the current show standings, I'm really hoping it's Sansa given that the highborn women are all taking charge.  I want Brienne to let her do it with Oathkeeper since technically it is half of Ice.

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(edited)
32 minutes ago, kittykat said:

I mean if we really looked into things there are numerous people to blame for the war.  Ned because again...idiot, Cat for seizing Tyrion, Tywin for sending Clegane to ravage the Riverlands, Jaime for pushing Bran out the window sending Stark to KL, Sansa for telling Cersei of Ned's plan to leave KL, Robert for surrounding himself with Lannisters and yes men, Lysa for poisoning Jon Arryn, Littlefinger for pressuring Lysa to said poisoning, Littlefinger for naming Tyrion as the holder of the dagger so Cat would seize him so Tywin would go to war so Ned would react emotionally so Joffrey would sentence Ned to death so Mr. Mockingbird's twu wuv would be single again.  I'm sure I'm leaving others out.  There is no one person to blame, just a string of very bad decisions by various people.

Really everything stems from Bran spying on Cersei and Jaime.

If Bran doesn't find out their secret, Jaime doesn't push him out the window. If Jaime doesn't push him out the window, likely Ned, Arya and Sansa are accompanied by Bran and possibly Cat and Rickon. With Bran along Arya can play with him and doesn't need to play with Mycah, and Joff wouldn't get nearly as tough with the true born son of Ned as he does with Mycah and he'd play the gentleman, at least until they get to King's Landing. With Bran not hurt, Cat doesn't investigate the dagger or go down the capture Tyrion route. With Cat in the capital Littlefinger is probably a lot less likely to betray Ned. Even if the betrayal does go down and Ned ends up in the black cells, he probably is allowed to take the black because if Joff is not embarrassed at the Ruby Ford, he wouldn't feel any animosity towards Sansa (for witnessing said humiliation) and he would still want her to see him as her gallant Prince.

Edited by Maximum Taco
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Nah, it was a really sloppy plot move to get the war started by making Ned act like some stupid and naive novice.  He's been in wars!  He's been in the capitol before, and he was warned several times of treachery there.  He's been a ruler in the North for years!  Yet, he finds out all this stuff, does he tell the King?  No, he lets him and himself get killed, his daughters flung into hell, his oldest son killed, his youngest goes off to live with cannibals, etc. etc.  For so-called "honor?"  To save a treacherous Queen and her bastard children that are conning his so-called best friend?

THEN, he TELLS the Queen?

I mean really, come on now...no that has lived his life is that stupid.  GRRM was really sloppy there.  I didn't believe it when I was reading it, and I still don't.  If I must believe it so that the story plays out?  That makes Ned an idiot who frankly, would have probably died from that long before our story begins.

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(edited)
44 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Nah, it was a really sloppy plot move to get the war started by making Ned act like some stupid and naive novice.  He's been in wars!  He's been in the capitol before, and he was warned several times of treachery there.  He's been a ruler in the North for years!  Yet, he finds out all this stuff, does he tell the King?  No, he lets him and himself get killed, his daughters flung into hell, his oldest son killed, his youngest goes off to live with cannibals, etc. etc.  For so-called "honor?"  To save a treacherous Queen and her bastard children that are conning his so-called best friend?

THEN, he TELLS the Queen?

I mean really, come on now...no that has lived his life is that stupid.  GRRM was really sloppy there.  I didn't believe it when I was reading it, and I still don't.  If I must believe it so that the story plays out?  That makes Ned an idiot who frankly, would have probably died from that long before our story begins.

Being a rular in the North doesn't really help him though. For the most part the Northern lords don't do a lot of politicking. They're too busy trying to stay alive and keep their subjects alive. They sometimes go years without seeing each other. He tells his banners what they need to do, and they do it. He's not used to giving an order and seeing it disobeyed. 

Not to say he isn't an idiot. He was definitely warned about the capitol and their backstabbing, but Ned's very much a fish out of water. A wolf out of the woods?

Edited by Maximum Taco
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1 hour ago, Maximum Taco said:

For the most part the Northern lords don't do a lot of politicking.

That's a myth about the North that ADWD really should have killed stone cold.

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