S01.E07: Chapter 7

[kay1864]

2 hours ago, paigow said:

Literally, Perry still has that thread sample which remains a loose [dead?] end....

 Maybe we should have a thread for the thread?

 (Thank you, thank you, I’ll be here all week. Tip your waitresses)

[Bulldog]

Another question about this episode . . . . I had assumed that the guy in the wheelchair who Alice "healed" was likely a plant either by Birdy or other church elders (I absolutely believe that Alice truly thought she had healed him).  But tonight, he was saying that he was no longer able to walk.  Now, I suppose that could be a scam as well, but it would be a scam that would be awfully hard to keep up without breaking character.  So, were they implying that Alice truly did heal him, but only temporarily?  If so, I would think that making someone wheelchair bound walk, even if only temporarily, would be considered a miracle.  (My apologies if this was discussed in earlier episode threads as I have not had a chance to read thru all of them.)

[LoveLeigh]

Just now, Bulldog said:

Another question about this episode . . . . I had assumed that the guy in the wheelchair who Alice "healed" was likely a plant either by Birdy or other church elders (I absolutely believe that Alice truly thought she had healed him).  But tonight, he was saying that he was no longer able to walk.  Now, I suppose that could be a scam as well, but it would be a scam that would be awfully hard to keep up without breaking character.  So, were they implying that Alice truly did heal him, but only temporarily?  If so, I would think that making someone wheelchair bound walk, even if only temporarily, would be considered a miracle.  (My apologies if this was discussed in earlier episode threads as I have not had a chance to read thru all of them.)

My answer to that is that I think there will be many unanswered questions after the final episode of this season. 

I am just unhappy with the way this is concluding. It reminds me of some seasons of True Detective and The Sinner: so much interesting and layered buildup to a totally uneventful conclusion. 

[UnknownK]

5 hours ago, Cardie said:

It was burned in George Gannon’s fire place, by Ennis I suppose  

 

 

 

Just a small amount of it to make people think it was all burned.

[Chicago Redshirt]

10 hours ago, TexasGal said:

This is what I don't get about the elders trying to drive Sister Alice out.  I assume it's to try to blame the money issues on her and/or her mother.  But they do realize that she is the draw for the church right?  How do they expect to keep their following and radio show if she's gone?

Could be a combination of a lot of things.

As a previous poster said, it could be sexism. 

It could be actual religious difference. I would like to think for most congregations, a promise to raise the dead is a bridge too far. I think that is as much the driving force as any. The followers of the main opposing elder were denouncing "McKeeganism" as if Sister Alice were setting up her own religious doctrine.

It could be concern about control.

It could be dislike of how Sister Alice is so aligning the church's interests with an apparent murderer.

And the church wouldn't be the first organization to cut off its nose to spite its face.

9 hours ago, Door County Cherry said:

I feel like this show would make a good binge.  This episode moved the story forward but I'm ready for the wrap up.

I liked how Perry was becoming more comfortable in the courtroom but I'm surprised the DA didn't try objecting to the introduction of the proof that the church was in debt.  I do think people encouraged Perry to go down this route but to be careful to not get too detailed and I think he was successful at that.  He linked George Gannon's participation in the kidnapping and ransom amount directly to the church's debt. It's a clearer motive than what they have on Emily and isn't motive essentially all they have with her?

The D.A. did object to the evidence about the church's debt, even to the point of waving the autopsy pics of Charlie at the jury.

The judge gave Perry some latitude and he ran with it.

It's an equally clear potential motive. Emily's motive is being a wanton woman who wanted to get money to run away with her kidnapper lover and betrayed her marriage and motherhood in the process is a pretty good  potential motive as well. The prosecution also has the jail matron recitation of Emily's "confession."

7 hours ago, Thalia said:

I wonder if he'll somehow get Sister Alice on the stand.  Tatiana Maslany can chew scenery and Alice looks close to cracking.  

I'm an attorney, and I kept wondering,"how is he getting this stuff in?"  Of course, it was 1931 and not 2020. 

Hypothetically, Perry should want Sister Alice to try to knock down the jail matron "confession." Also, it seems unlikely that the writers would resist having their two chief actors in a courtroom scene together, or having Perry put Sister Alice in the box. 

Other than all this being rife with discovery violations, since all this info was not turned over to plaintiff until literally witnesses were on the stand (thanks, Gloves!), I think a real trial would be allowed to explore alternate theories of the crime, and the notion that George orchestrated the kidnapping on behalf of the church rather than on behalf of his affair is as valid as any.

4 hours ago, Bulldog said:

Another question about this episode . . . . I had assumed that the guy in the wheelchair who Alice "healed" was likely a plant either by Birdy or other church elders (I absolutely believe that Alice truly thought she had healed him).  But tonight, he was saying that he was no longer able to walk.  Now, I suppose that could be a scam as well, but it would be a scam that would be awfully hard to keep up without breaking character.  So, were they implying that Alice truly did heal him, but only temporarily?  If so, I would think that making someone wheelchair bound walk, even if only temporarily, would be considered a miracle.  (My apologies if this was discussed in earlier episode threads as I have not had a chance to read thru all of them.)

I am assuming he's the old double plant. He faked being wheelchair bound at the service, and he faked failing to recover when he was on the radio. Elder Brown and his cronies tried to ambush her with this during the Good Friday broadcast, expecting to undermine her. But she managed to (I'm assuming) play it off nicely.

[Blakeston]

5 hours ago, Bulldog said:

Another question about this episode . . . . I had assumed that the guy in the wheelchair who Alice "healed" was likely a plant either by Birdy or other church elders (I absolutely believe that Alice truly thought she had healed him).  But tonight, he was saying that he was no longer able to walk.  Now, I suppose that could be a scam as well, but it would be a scam that would be awfully hard to keep up without breaking character.  So, were they implying that Alice truly did heal him, but only temporarily?  If so, I would think that making someone wheelchair bound walk, even if only temporarily, would be considered a miracle.  (My apologies if this was discussed in earlier episode threads as I have not had a chance to read thru all of them.)

People who are "healed" at church revivals are often just filled with adrenaline. There are a lot of wheelchair-users who aren't fully paralyzed, and are capable of standing up and walking around a bit if they put all their strength into it. If someone in that situation believes that a preacher has healed them, they might be able to lift themselves out of the chair and use their legs, and feel like a miracle has happened. But that "miracle" isn't going to last very long, and they're going to need their wheelchair soon.

I think that was the case with Robert. Under the spotlight, having a religious experience and being filled with adrenaline, he was able to get around a bit without his wheelchair. I can't imagine how depressing it would be to believe you're healed, and then a) find out you really aren't, and b) hear the preacher tell the world that you just didn't have enough faith.

[tennisgurl]

So I was decently convinced that it would turn out that Baby Charlie was murdered deliberately, but I guess it really was an accident. An accident surrounding a bunch of other horrible things happening, but his actual death was accidental, after drinking the milk of a poor drug addicted prostitute. I am still wondering if we will get one last twist though, and just in time for Perry to get his big Perry Mason moment in court where he figures out who really did it and gets them to confess on the stand, through sheer force of riotous indignation!

"So she’s a math professor?" Oh Perry, for a tough guy private eye turned lawyer, you can be a real dork sometimes. 

Edited August 4, 2020 by tennisgurl

[Hanahope]

1 hour ago, Blakeston said:

People who are "healed" at church revivals are often just filled with adrenaline. There are a lot of wheelchair-users who aren't fully paralyzed, and are capable of standing up and walking around a bit if they put all their strength into it. If someone in that situation believes that a preacher has healed them, they might be able to lift themselves out of the chair and use their legs, and feel like a miracle has happened. But that "miracle" isn't going to last very long, and they're going to need their wheelchair soon.

I think that was the case with Robert. Under the spotlight, having a religious experience and being filled with adrenaline, he was able to get around a bit without his wheelchair. I can't imagine how depressing it would be to believe you're healed, and then a) find out you really aren't, and b) hear the preacher tell the world that you just didn't have enough faith.

See the Steve Martin movie Leap of Faith, it gives a pretty good explanation about “faith healing” at these sort of things.

how sad the baby died because they used a drug addicted wet nurse.

I don’t think the defense has as much obligation to turn over discovery as the prosecution, at least back in the 1930s.

so was the baby never buried?

great showing of motive by the church to be behind the kidnapping 

 

[Natalie25]

On 8/2/2020 at 10:55 PM, scrb said:

So why did Seidel have to concoct this kidnap plan?  And why was Ennis involved, he expected to get his taste of the ransom or did he just steal it all?

I think they needed a fourth man for the plan to work. Seidel probably hired Ennis (and Gannon) for the job - and since Ennis and Seidel and worked with the 2 men from Denver, they were brought on as well. One man on the phone with the Dodson's, second holding the baby in the train, third to drive the second away, and fourth (Ennis) to grab the money once the Dodson's left to get the baby.

22 hours ago, rozen said:

If they could snatch a junkie mother for baby Charlie, wouldn't that imply she wasn't shooting up enough to kill a kid (because presumably she was breastfeeding herself)?

Most likely not - probably the whorehouse had ways of getting rid of unwanted pregnancies, and even if she'd had a baby she probably had to give it up. She either had a baby at some point, and "breastfeeding" her clients kept up her milk supply, or she never had one and they just induced it to attract clients with the kink.

22 hours ago, kay1864 said:

 I gotta admit, that was pretty dang astute of Perry to ask for a lactating prostitute. “Magically quieting the baby” doesn’t necessarily mean breast-feeding.  Unless maybe it dawned on him as he was looking at the pictures.

Drake mentioned that she "had a lot going on upstairs" and looked down at his chest, indicating she was well-endowed, which breast feeding can lead to.

[Cotypubby]

17 minutes ago, Natalie25 said:

Drake mentioned that she "had a lot going on upstairs" and looked down at his chest, indicating she was well-endowed, which breast feeding can lead to.

I didn’t even realize that’s what he meant til now. 🤦‍♀️ I also thought he meant the woman had the smarts to be pulling the strings or something. I had no idea how Mason knew which prostitute to ask for. 
 

So question to those more medically knowledgeable than me: Is a baby suffocating to death from nursing for one night from a heroin addicted woman actually something that can happen? Did they mean that he overdosed? I thought the effects of nursing while on drugs were long term, not that it would cause immediate death (as the pathologist suggested.)

Edited August 4, 2020 by Cotypubby

[eleanorofaquitaine]

Most of what I am finding on the Google says that the biggest risk for an infant is something called Neonatal Abstinence Syndrome, but that seems more about what happens if the mother is taking heroin while the baby is still in the womb (and thus, the infant goes through withdrawal after birth). But the symptoms are serious and I can imagine something similar for a baby who is taking milk from a heroin-addicted woman.  

[kay1864]

8 hours ago, Cotypubby said:

I didn’t even realize that’s what he meant til now. 🤦‍♀️ I also thought he meant the woman had the smarts to be pulling the strings or something.

Me neither!

Oddly enough, the woman on the slab was not well-endowed, even allowing for her being on her back.

[Blakeston]

It's definitely possible for a baby to overdose from breastfeeding. This article mentions one example.

There was also a recent incident when a woman's baby died of a meth overdose after breastfeeding.

I, too, didn't get what "a lot going on upstairs" meant. I thought they meant she was mentally ill. Anytime I've heard people reference a body part as "upstairs," it's been the brain, not the bosoms.

[Inquisitionist]

20 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

And Perry's going to feel really bad if Pete winds up getting killed trying to make things right.

Much more practical going to a prostitute who's got to keep lactating because it's her job to nurse clients with that fetish. Which again works for realism because the men she's breastfeeding aren't going to die from that small amount of heroin in her milk. Probably consider it a plus.

Weren't there baby bottles and milk in 1932 LA?  Jesus, why bring another person into this scam?

18 hours ago, DakotaLavender said:

My answer to that is that I think there will be many unanswered questions after the final episode of this season. 

I am just unhappy with the way this is concluding. It reminds me of some seasons of True Detective and The Sinner: so much interesting and layered buildup to a totally uneventful conclusion. 

I feel like it's taking 8 hours to tell about 4 hours of story, and not even all of that.  Really just slogging through to the end because my husband is intrigued, but I think this series is wildly overpraised.

[BradandJanet]

I'm confused. Do we know Birdy stole the body? Whoever arranged the burial must have been in on this. The coffin lining was pristine. 

Sister looked truly shocked to see the empty coffin. She should have just shouted out that Charlie had been resurrected and was in Cleveland or something. That crowd got out of control pretty fast. 

[Door County Cherry]

12 hours ago, Natalie25 said:

Drake mentioned that she "had a lot going on upstairs" and looked down at his chest, indicating she was well-endowed, which breast feeding can lead to.

Yep. Although I think for Perry it was a combination of knowing that there was a baby who couldn't stop crying, then a well endowed woman showed up, the baby went silent and then the only baby sounds they heard were cooing.  He made the connection that the woman likely fed the baby.

I am pretty sure he had seen that brothel menu before. It looked familiar to me.    

3 hours ago, kay1864 said:

Me neither!

Oddly enough, the woman on the slab was not well-endowed, even allowing for her being on her back.

I wonder if full bosoms made them bigger but if her milk left her once she died making them smaller. 

1 hour ago, Blakeston said:

Anytime I've heard people reference a body part as "upstairs," it's been the brain, not the bosoms.

I've seen movies from the 50s/60s reference a lot going upstairs as a euphemism for well-endowed in the bosom area.  These days it's more likely to refer to the head.

[teddysmom]

47 minutes ago, Inquisitionist said:

Weren't there baby bottles and milk in 1932 LA?  Jesus, why bring another person into this scam?

I just said this in another forum.  

How stupid were these guys? Charlie was a year old. Just go buy some milk, FFS!!! 

 

 

44 minutes ago, BradandJanet said:

Whoever arranged the burial must have been in on this. The coffin lining was pristine. 

It had a yellow stain I thought. And I wondered what that was. 

The whole thing was so awful. 

I do give kudos to everyone working on this production for pulling off that cemetery scene.  That was insane. 

[BradandJanet]

3 minutes ago, teddysmom said:

I just said this in another forum.  

How stupid were these guys? Charlie was a year old. Just go buy some milk, FFS!!! 

 

 

It had a yellow stain I thought. And I wondered what that was. 

The whole thing was so awful. 

I do give kudos to everyone working on this production for pulling off that cemetery scene.  That was insane. 

I didn't notice a stain, but it may have been there. Honestly, I was expecting to see a decomposed corpse, so I was trying to look sparingly. 

 

[teddysmom]

7 minutes ago, BradandJanet said:

Honestly, I was expecting to see a decomposed corpse, so I was trying to look sparingly. 

I didn't know what to expect. Considering what they did to us the first episode, with his eyes. 

Why did those guys come in and start beating up Perry at the brothel?  Did they know he was trying to find out what happened to the other girl? 

 

21 hours ago, kay1864 said:

Literally, Perry still has that thread sample which remains a loose [dead?] end....

I think he keeps it to remind him why he's doing this. 

[Nampara]

15 hours ago, Blakeston said:

People who are "healed" at church revivals are often just filled with adrenaline. There are a lot of wheelchair-users who aren't fully paralyzed, and are capable of standing up and walking around a bit if they put all their strength into it. If someone in that situation believes that a preacher has healed them, they might be able to lift themselves out of the chair and use their legs, and feel like a miracle has happened. But that "miracle" isn't going to last very long, and they're going to need their wheelchair soon.

I once read a critique of this sort of activity, entitled something like, "Why Does God Hate Amputees?" The point is that all the "healings" conveniently involve health conditions that are ambiguous to begin with. Is he paralyzed, or is he pretending? Why not find a supplicant with a missing leg and leave no room for doubt after the grow-back miracle occurs?

[sistermagpie]

13 hours ago, Cotypubby said:

I didn’t even realize that’s what he meant til now. 🤦‍♀️ I also thought he meant the woman had the smarts to be pulling the strings or something. I had no idea how Mason knew which prostitute to ask for. 

Don't feel bad, Perry didn't get it either. LOL!

13 hours ago, Cotypubby said:

 

So question to those more medically knowledgeable than me: Is a baby suffocating to death from nursing for one night from a heroin addicted woman actually something that can happen? Did they mean that he overdosed? I thought the effects of nursing while on drugs were long term, not that it would cause immediate death (as the pathologist suggested.)

I would assume it would be really easy to accidentally give a baby enough heroin to slow down its system enough to stop its breathing.

2 hours ago, Inquisitionist said:

Weren't there baby bottles and milk in 1932 LA?  Jesus, why bring another person into this scam?

I assumed they were trying to feed it something that wasn't working because how long did they have him? So that's why somebody thought the one way to be sure would be to give him breastmilk he might have been used to more.

 

2 hours ago, BradandJanet said:

I'm confused. Do we know Birdy stole the body? Whoever arranged the burial must have been in on this. The coffin lining was pristine. 

I agree with others who saw a big stain on it.

2 hours ago, BradandJanet said:

Sister looked truly shocked to see the empty coffin. She should have just shouted out that Charlie had been resurrected and was in Cleveland or something. That crowd got out of control pretty fast. 

LOL! I had a similar reaction. I thought...well, he's not in the coffin. Isn't that, like, exactly what happened on Easter morning at Jesus's tomb? You did it!

1 hour ago, teddysmom said:

I didn't know what to expect. Considering what they did to us the first episode, with his eyes. 

Why did those guys come in and start beating up Perry at the brothel?  Did they know he was trying to find out what happened to the other girl? 

 

I think he keeps it to remind him why he's doing this. 

Yes, they did know who he was and what he was doing in general. I hadn't thought of that about the thread, but it's a good reading! It would make a nice nod to how in that time period you don't have the kind of forensics you'd always see on cop shows today. (That apparently give a very wrong impression of how the police actually use this stuff.)

[Nampara]

21 hours ago, DakotaLavender said:

It reminds me of some seasons of True Detective and The Sinner: so much interesting and layered buildup to a totally uneventful conclusion. 

There is a bit of an anticlimactic feel to the show right now, I agree. Part of it is that the villains were telegraphed a little too much: The religious organization that we expected from the start would turn out to be crooked, really is crooked. The crudely corrupt cop is revealed as crudely corrupt. And there's a Fargo fragrance to the whole affair: they're criminals, and they're evil for kidnapping a child, but they're also cloddish and inept.

Nothing in Perry Mason so far has matched the twisty and twisted shock value of the moment in the film version of L.A. Confidential when  {spoiler alert}  Dudley Smith (James Cromwell) suddenly shoots fellow cop Jack Vincennes (Kevin Spacey) in the middle of a seemingly professional chat about the case.

[paigow]

6 minutes ago, Nampara said:

Nothing in Perry Mason so far has matched the twisty and twisted shock value of the moment in the film version of L.A. Confidential when  {spoiler alert}  Dudley Smith (James Cromwell) suddenly shoots fellow cop Jack Vincennes (Kevin Spacey) in the middle of a seemingly professional chat about the case.

[Interior: Courtroom]

Mason: Detective Ennis, How many men do you believe were involved in kidnapping Charlie Dodson?

Ennis: 3. They all died.

Mason: Who is Rollo Tomassi?

[eleanorofaquitaine]

4 hours ago, Nampara said:

There is a bit of an anticlimactic feel to the show right now, I agree. Part of it is that the villains were telegraphed a little too much: The religious organization that we expected from the start would turn out to be crooked, really is crooked. The crudely corrupt cop is revealed as crudely corrupt. And there's a Fargo fragrance to the whole affair: they're criminals, and they're evil for kidnapping a child, but they're also cloddish and inept.

Nothing in Perry Mason so far has matched the twisty and twisted shock value of the moment in the film version of L.A. Confidential when  {spoiler alert}  Dudley Smith (James Cromwell) suddenly shoots fellow cop Jack Vincennes (Kevin Spacey) in the middle of a seemingly professional chat about the case.

The thing is, film noir isn't actually all that big into twists and turns, like we see in contemporary film or tv.  Obviously L.A. Confidential had a huge twist in it but if you watch film noir from the 30s and 40s, there usually isn't some big surprise about who the bad guys are and who the good guys are.  Having a "twist" isn't what makes a good story and plenty of otherwise decent films and/or tv shows have been ruined in search of the elusive twist.  So I am okay if there is no ultimate twist to this story because that's more in the spirit of what noir actually is about - the moral corruption of humanity. 

[DoctorAtomic]

There's still the question of whether Ennis ends up paying for his many crimes. Not really a twist, but there's plenty of drama. 

And if we find who sewed the eyes. 

 

 

[Nampara]

14 hours ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

So I am okay if there is no ultimate twist to this story because that's more in the spirit of what noir actually is about - the moral corruption of humanity. 

Noir is about corruption and mystery. Struggling with ignorance, confusion, and deceit is a core part of the noir protagonist's journey. Their world is as much an epistemological mess as it is a moral cesspool.

You seem to be under the misapprehension that I am advocating a "twist" for its own sake. I am not. But predictability is a serious potential flaw in a story like the one in Perry Mason, particularly one that's eight hours long. We'll see what the season finale reveals, but so far, as indicated in my previous post and the post to which I was replying, some of us have found the tale a little less surprising than we had hoped.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

10 minutes ago, Nampara said:

Noir is about corruption and mystery. Struggling with ignorance, confusion, and deceit is a core part of the noir protagonist's journey. Their world is as much an epistemological mess as it is a moral cesspool.

You seem to be under the misapprehension that I am advocating a "twist" for its own sake. I am not. But predictability is a serious potential flaw in a story like the one in Perry Mason, particularly one that's eight hours long. We'll see what the season finale reveals, but so far, as indicated in my previous post and the post to which I was replying, some of us have found the tale a little less surprising than we had hoped.

Not... really?  I mean, there really isn't a mystery in White Heat or the original Scarface or The Petrified Forest. The "mystery" in the Maltese Falcon isn't really that mysterious and the one that exists in The Big Sleep is actually pretty incomprehensible. They are crime dramas but they aren't really mysteries.

I am not under "misapprehension," I am just reacting to you citing L.A. Confidential as something that was entertaining because it had a twist and something that the show should be inspired by. (FWIW, I am not disagreeing with that contention, I very much enjoyed L.A. Confidential but it is very much a film of the 1990s not the 1930s). Now obviously, Perry Mason as a show has its origins in mysteries, so I am not saying that there would be anything wrong with a twist or with a more "mysterious" mystery but since the show seems to be leaning very heavily on noir as its inspiration, I am fine if there isn't any. 

[Thalia]

I guess the finale is 60 minutes.  I wish they'd expand it to 90 at the very least.  Oh well.

[Natalie25]

On 8/3/2020 at 11:44 PM, Cotypubby said:

So question to those more medically knowledgeable than me: Is a baby suffocating to death from nursing for one night from a heroin addicted woman actually something that can happen? Did they mean that he overdosed? I thought the effects of nursing while on drugs were long term, not that it would cause immediate death (as the pathologist suggested.)

Yeah, essentially Charlie OD'd. In an overdose your breathing rate slows way down, and likely he stopped breathing. Usually when an infant gets heroin (or similar) from breastfeeding, it is long term as you mentioned - it's more common for a child to be addicted in the womb or from long-term breastfeeding from an addicted mother, and as eleanorofacuitane mentioned above withdrawal is a big concern in these infants. This situation with Charlie is pretty rare - his mother was not taking drugs, and then he is suddenly breastfeeding from an addicted wetnurse. There's always a possibility of an OD even the first time someone takes drugs (you don't have to be an addict taking larger and larger doses). And with Charlie being a young infant, it's not surprising he OD'd when his body isn't tolerant to the drug.

On 8/4/2020 at 7:58 AM, kay1864 said:

Oddly enough, the woman on the slab was not well-endowed, even allowing for her being on her back.

I think she had died recently? Easter in 1932 (is that the year this takes place?) was late March, and Charlie died around Christmas. So maybe within the 3 months she stopped breastfeeding / offering it as a kink (due to the mishap with Charlie) so they weren't as full?

[paigow]

On 8/5/2020 at 9:11 PM, Natalie25 said:

I think she had died recently?

Yes. She had been in the morgue around 24 hours before Perry viewed her. 

Edited August 8, 2020 by paigow

[statsgirl]

On 8/2/2020 at 10:46 PM, Cardie said:

Burger may have been happy to help Della out but is going to rue the day he helped Perry cheat his way through the bar exam 

How did he help Perry cheat his way through the bar exam?  Because Perry didn't go to law school?

Della pointed out that Perry had served the equivalent of an apprenticeship with EB. The way to become a lawyer or a doctor used to be through apprenticeship rather than going to a university.  Lawyer like Abraham Lincoln, Frank Kellogg and Clarence Darrow became lawyers through apprenticeship. California will still admit you to the bar through an apprenticeship.

For anyone interested: https://priceonomics.com/how-to-be-a-lawyer-without-going-to-law-school/

[Door County Cherry]

31 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

How did he help Perry cheat his way through the bar exam?  Because Perry didn't go to law school?

Della pointed out that Perry had served the equivalent of an apprenticeship with EB.

Della said Perry basically served an apprenticeship before she signed the document making that claim (with E.B.'s signature).  I don't think he actually did.  

And it's implied Burger told Perry the questions, which hadn't changed in almost 10 years, and likely the answer to the bar exam.  

[paigow]

2 hours ago, Door County Cherry said:

Della said Perry basically served an apprenticeship before she signed the document making that claim (with E.B.'s signature).  I don't think he actually did.  

And it's implied Burger told Perry the questions, which hadn't changed in almost 10 years, and likely the answer to the bar exam.  

Della and Perry had already successfully perpetrated insurance fraud, so forging an apprenticeship claim and cheating on the bar exam is not going to cause a crisis of conscience

[statsgirl]

I missed that Della forged EB's signature.

2 hours ago, Door County Cherry said:

And it's implied Burger told Perry the questions, which hadn't changed in almost 10 years, and likely the answer to the bar exam.  

I thought he was just going over things as prep for Perry like one of those courses that people take.

If the questions haven't changed in 10 years, I'm pretty sure that there are copies of the exam floating around for other people too.

[shapeshifter]

On 8/2/2020 at 11:45 PM, dramachick said:

Birdy is quite resourceful and ruthless. Of course, Alice is a delusional mess.

Exactly, and enough said, but, anyway...
 

On 8/2/2020 at 9:55 PM, scrb said:

Momma didn’t even have a moment of anguish before turning out her prepubescent daughter.  So either it wasn’t the first time or it was the plan when money ran out on the trek from Saskatoon to LA.

On 8/2/2020 at 11:18 PM, sistermagpie said:

I assumed Alice's reaction to being told to thank the nice man indicated it wasn't the first time. She seemed to get that say thank you did not mean say thank you.

On 8/2/2020 at 10:58 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

It wouldn't necessarily have to be a plan to turn out Alice. It could have just been that Birdy is a pragmatist who was at the end of her rope.

During The Great Depression I imagine at first a penniless single mother living on the road sold herself for sustenance for her and her daughter. Eventually she was no longer so attractive, they were hungry, and the men wanted her daughter. I think this plot line could easily have been based upon real, common occurrences at the time.
Likely too, "Sister" Alice would have developed a dissociative identity disorder as a result, and her mother would have also had her own resulting mental illness (whatever it's called) leading her to continue selling themselves in other ways that perhaps made her feel what had gone before was necessary and therefore acceptable. 

 

On 8/2/2020 at 9:55 PM, scrb said:

...OK, Sister Alice was a rock star in her time, drawing throngs into the church and many more over the radio.

On 8/2/2020 at 11:05 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

revealed that Sister Alice truly thought she was Jesus and the extent of Birdy's cynicism.

On 8/2/2020 at 9:21 PM, edhopper said:

it showed was the lengths the Sister Alice's mother would go to to keep the Church going. Obvious she stole the baby's body and set up the fake miracle. And Alice knew it and couldn't accept it anymore.

At some point Sister Alice learned she could earn their keep in ways preferable to laying down with awful men. She probably became good at it by believing in her powers and that they were from God --which would mean she was "cleansed." But we also saw Alice empathize with Emily's "sinful" behaviors, which indicate Alice has not forgotten anything, really.

I think the last scene of Alice running away is some kind of psychological break resulting from a realization that she and her mother were to make money off of Charlie's unfortunate death. Likely on the road in rural places of the Depression Era, Alice eventually became pregnant. I don't know if they can squeeze that plot line into the last episode, but it likely did not end well.

 

 

Edited August 9, 2020 by shapeshifter

[sistermagpie]

3 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

At some point Sister Alice learned she could earn their keep in ways preferable to laying down with awful men. She probably became good at it by believing in her powers and that they were from God --which would mean she was "cleansed." But we also saw Alice empathize with Emily's "sinful" behaviors, which indicate Alice has not forgotten anything, really.

I think it's the reviewer on the AV Club who suggests that Alice came to force herself to believe that when her mother said something was a miracle from God (like the man helping them) it really was, and that miracles therefore hand to be paid for - like by having to have sex with the guy.

[Milburn Stone]

One thing I began to appreciate with this episode is how the whole season is like one OG Perry Mason episode exploded out to 8 episodes. Here's what I mean. The original CBS Perry Masons (most of them) adhered to a rigid structure. The crime/investigative part would generally occupy the first 55% of the episode. The trial part would be the second 45%. This Perry Mason season pretty much breaks out that way! I bet that's no accident. 

[shapeshifter]

12 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

One thing I began to appreciate with this episode is how the whole season is like one OG Perry Mason episode exploded out to 8 episodes. Here's what I mean. The original CBS Perry Masons (most of them) adhered to a rigid structure. The crime/investigative part would generally occupy the first 55% of the episode. The trial part would be the second 45%. This Perry Mason season pretty much breaks out that way! I bet that's no accident. 

Now that you’ve spelled out the percents, I wonder if Dick Wolf structured Law & Order based on Perry Mason. 

[Kel Varnsen]

On 8/3/2020 at 9:14 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

It's an equally clear potential motive. Emily's motive is being a wanton woman who wanted to get money to run away with her kidnapper lover and betrayed her marriage and motherhood in the process is a pretty good  potential motive as well. The prosecution also has the jail matron recitation of Emily's "confession."

I liked this episode. Although now that most of the crime has been spelled out one thing I find interesting is that just because the kidnapping motive was money for the church, that doesn't really prove that Emily wasn't in on it. I mean I know that the DA hasn't really proven anything besides that Emily had an affair, but it seems like that is all the jury cares about.

Quote

During The Great Depression I imagine at first a penniless single mother living on the road sold herself for sustenance for her and her daughter. 

Was it the depression though? The great depression was the early 1930's right? And current time in this show is 1932. But flashback Alice is easily 10 years younger. Either way driving from Saskatchewan to California in a 1920's era car on 1920's roads sounds like torture even without the forced prostitution.

Edited August 6, 2021 by Kel Varnsen