S40.E13: The Penultimate Step of War

[JudyObscure]

1 hour ago, HurricaneVal said:

What this season is teaching me is that New School Survivor is really kind of boring.  It is all about idols and advantages and swing voting to play around the advantages potentially being played.  BO-ring.

And, like the whispering at Tribal, half the time we don't know what's going on.  The powers that be seem to forget this is a TV show.  If we can't follow along at home we'll get bored or frustrated and change the channel.

 

35 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

As for why everyone seems to be handing the money right over to Tony, I suspect a lot of what the other players think pads their resume doesn't make it onto the show. We see Tony making all these moves and, seemingly, orchestrating every blindside. But others like Sarah or even Ben might be making similar decisions, and the editing pares it down to make it look like it's all Tony.

  I think you're right, plus we have to remember all these people have played their game the way they play it -- and won!  Nick played a low key, game and won, Sarah played a game of quiet observation and won, Ben was arrogant and annoying and won.  They really have every reason to think that what they're doing works. 

[skybolt]

I don't understand why posters think Tony is a lock to win if he makes final 3, and that players like Sarah and Denise are stupid for not getting rid of him. I personally love Tony and he was the one I was rooting for since day 1. However, IMO although I think Tony has done a great job pulling the wool over the eyes of the remaining players, I don't believe the jury is as impressed.

Let me use Denise vs. Tony as an example. Up until the Sophie vote, I think we can all agree that Denise had a bigger resume than Tony. She could argue that she had to battle from Day 1 to not get voted out by Rob, while Tony was building ladders. She could also argue that her blindsiding Sandra was a much better move than Tony blindsiding Sophie since Tony's play came from a power position, while she was playing from the bottom. You could also make the argument that Tony putting on the theatrics to save Jeremy twice or bringing in Nick was all for naught, since he wound up getting rid of them anyway. Potentially they could've accomplished the same thing if he had just kept Sophie. What I'm basically saying is that someone like Parvati or Tyson may see Tony's moves as padding his resume vs. creating a new alliance to take to the end. He really has to do a good explaining why he made every single move, since at the end he didn't turn on Sarah or Ben. 

I personally think that Tony has done a lot more than that, but the jury may say you know what, Denise and Michelle were constantly playing from the bottom, but managed to avoid getting voted out, while Tony was always in a power position. 

[Lamima]

10 minutes ago, skybolt said:

I don't understand why posters think Tony is a lock to win if he makes final 3, and that players like Sarah and Denise are stupid for not getting rid of him. I personally love Tony and he was the one I was rooting for since day 1. However, IMO although I think Tony has done a great job pulling the wool over the eyes of the remaining players, I don't believe the jury is as impressed.

Let me use Denise vs. Tony as an example. Up until the Sophie vote, I think we can all agree that Denise had a bigger resume than Tony. She could argue that she had to battle from Day 1 to not get voted out by Rob, while Tony was building ladders. She could also argue that her blindsiding Sandra was a much better move than Tony blindsiding Sophie since Tony's play came from a power position, while she was playing from the bottom. You could also make the argument that Tony putting on the theatrics to save Jeremy twice or bringing in Nick was all for naught, since he wound up getting rid of them anyway. Potentially they could've accomplished the same thing if he had just kept Sophie. What I'm basically saying is that someone like Parvati or Tyson may see Tony's moves as padding his resume vs. creating a new alliance to take to the end. He really has to do a good explaining why he made every single move, since at the end he didn't turn on Sarah or Ben. 

I personally think that Tony has done a lot more than that, but the jury may say you know what, Denise and Michelle were constantly playing from the bottom, but managed to avoid getting voted out, while Tony was always in a power position. 

At one TC a player mentioned Tony was running the show and they panned to the jury all smiling and shaking their heads in agreement. 

Edited May 7, 2020 by Lamima

[SoWindsor]

It’s ironic that Nick using the disadvantage is what sent him to the edge. If he hadn’t, Ben probably would have won immunity and Michelle would have been voted out.

Still so disappointed that Rob and the other old schoolers didn’t get a chance to play this season. 

[skybolt]

1 minute ago, Lamima said:

At one TC a player mentioned Tony was running the show and they panned to the jury all smiling and shaking their heads in agreement. 

I've watched that scene multiple times and only Wendell looks at Rob and then looks away. The other players either didn't hear him or don't respond in a negative or positive way (if they did). 

[AntFTW]

14 minutes ago, skybolt said:

I don't understand why posters think Tony is a lock to win if he makes final 3, and that players like Sarah and Denise are stupid for not getting rid of him. I personally love Tony and he was the one I was rooting for since day 1. However, IMO although I think Tony has done a great job pulling the wool over the eyes of the remaining players, I don't believe the jury is as impressed.

I think that Tony is a lock to win based on Boston Rob's reaction when Kim was voted out saying "Tony's a boss." I imagine the EoE players talk about TCs at least a little bit. I imagine Rob is not the only one seeing that "Tony's a boss." I imagine as they're on the outside looking in also, they see Tony, more than anyone else, playing the game.

Edited May 7, 2020 by AntFTW

[skybolt]

Just now, AntFTW said:

I think that Tony is a lock to win based on Boston Rob's reaction when Kim was voted out saying "Tony's a boss." I imagine the EoE talk about TCs at least a little bit. I imagine Rob is not the only one seeing that "Tony's a boss." I imagine as they're on the outside looking in also, they see Tony, more than anyone else, playing the game.

But Boston Rob is one person, and is admiring Tony for playing a game conducive to his style of being the puppet master. Russell Hantz would also approve.  I could also say Wendell cheering Nick on to keep talking means that everyone else is rooting for Nick. 

[AntFTW]

6 minutes ago, skybolt said:

But Boston Rob is one person, and is admiring Tony for playing a game conducive to his style of being the puppet master. Russell Hantz would also approve.  I could also say Wendell cheering Nick on to keep talking means that everyone else is rooting for Nick. 

To paint more of the picture that I'm seeing in my head... the picture assumes that Nick is not in the final 3. The picture assumes that it's Tony, Sara and (X)... with (X) being Michele, Denise, or Ben.

But you never know...

Edited May 7, 2020 by AntFTW

[Richness]

Say what you will about all the whispering, but both Tribal Councils were boring as hell tonight without it.

 

I may not like Adam personally, but I love that he recognized that the act Denise was putting on was fake.

[skybolt]

29 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

I think you're right, plus we have to remember all these people have played their game the way they play it -- and won!  Nick played a low key, game and won, Sarah played a game of quiet observation and won, Ben was arrogant and annoying and won.  They really have every reason to think that what they're doing works. 

I agree with this statement wholeheartedly. For instance you can argue that Brad Culpepper was as strategic and brash as Tony, but she beat him. The only person that is delusional about being a big threat to win is Ben. I think it's partly because he thinks that he was an outcast in his first season, while Tony and Sarah have convinced him that he's a welcomed addition to their triple alliance.

3 minutes ago, Richness said:

Say what you will about all the whispering, but both Tribal Councils were boring as hell tonight without it.

 

I may not like Adam personally, but I love that he recognized that the act Denise was putting on was fake.

It goes back to what others have mentioned in the past. Most tribal councils last a few hours. If the producers had more material to work with than the whispering they would've used it. For instance, someone mentioned that the the original Sele tribe had a whispering session that was edited out. Back then we had Rob, Adam, Jeremy, Parvati, etc. to keep tribal answers interesting.

[skybolt]

I'm really glad that EoE won't be back any time soon. I understand players earning tokens to buy themselves food, advantages and idols, but being able to buy an idol for someone else is way too convenient. Heck, with her 14 tokens Natalie could've bought multiple idols for people (not that we ever saw the new EoE menu to find out what the new prices were). Also, how come advantages are still one token, while presumably the immunity idol and food have gone up in price?

[AntFTW]

17 minutes ago, skybolt said:

I agree with this statement wholeheartedly. For instance you can argue that Brad Culpepper was as strategic and brash as Tony, but she beat him. The only person that is delusional about being a big threat to win is Ben. I think it's partly because he thinks that he was an outcast in his first season, while Tony and Sarah have convinced him that he's a welcomed addition to their triple alliance.

Brad is far more brash than Tony.

I do overlook the thought sometimes that the game is more nuanced. Any time I think of a winner, that is the person that I believe has the best game play. It seems like most, if not all, of us agree that Tony has the best game play and therefore will win. In Game Changers, I genuinely thought Sarah played the best game and therefore was gonna win, and the same goes for Tony in Cagayan and Jeremy in Cambodia and so on.

Despite that, the jury doesn't always vote that way.

[Josh371982]

7 hours ago, violet and green said:

Not alone! Couldn't stand her in her season, couldn't stand her this season, and that long episode was far too laden with Michelle, again. The mid-season was borderline unbearable with great lengthy swathes of her moanin' and agroanin' and whining on about and at mopey Wendell.

Look, she's a very pretty girl and she tans up well (will look like ancient leather by midlife, god bless) and the camera loves her, but enough already.

I thought she was a Valley Girl until this episode.

And then couldn't catch a ball, boohoohooo, and suddenly everyone's all: Rise, you glorious phoenix! Michelle is my winner! So brave, so true! Go, Michelle!

Barf.

I am rooting madly for Tony. So funny, I was putting on my black veil pre-watch in preparation for this being inevitably the time Tony doesn't win the Immunity necklace and gets voted out, as any sane contender would make sure he is. Barely raised a mention. Bizarre. Two opportunities to get the biggest threat to win out missed, and seemingly barely considered. I really hope he can take the whole thing out, and that the other half of Cops R Us gets second place prize money, also.

 

Yeah fuck Tony and Sarah. I'd rather something not boring happen in the finale. Since they had 2 shots to take him out and decided to be morons they deserve what they get and they'll probably let Annoying non entertaining Puchable face Assbag and his sidekick the biggest moron Be in F3. God what an awful F3 that would be to conclude a another Shitty season. 

[bankerchick]

Quote

Still so disappointed that Rob and the other old schoolers didn’t get a chance to play this season. 

I have never been a fan of Rob, and that was reinforced last night when they showed the clips of the 'buddy system' where they inexplicably listened to Rob and sat in the playpen all day, and also when he bullied them into emptying their bags at tribal.

That's the only way Rob could win, and I don't think I'd be up for another season of that.

[Josh371982]

5 hours ago, Fallacy said:

If Tony makes it to the end, he should win. 

Also, Nick is an absolute moron voting out Jeremy instead of Ben. As Michelle so accurately noted, he had no path to the final 3 after that vote.

It’s likely that the player who gets back in will have an immunity idol because Natalie, Tyson, and Rob all have one. So my guess is Michelle will be the next to go home, assuming she doesn’t win the final 6 immunity challenge. At final 5, Denise or the player from the Edge goes home. Same at final 4. That leaves Ben, Tony, and Sarah in the final 3. And Tony will win.  

The only way that path changes is if the person from edge wins every immunity challenge to get to the final 3. So it would be Tony, Sarah, plus the edge player. I still think Tony wins in that situation too. If the person who returns manages to get Tony out, then that player might actually win. Otherwise, I still say it’s Tony’s game to lose. 

I just don’t see the jury voting for anyone but Tony if he manages to get to the end. These are winners. They’re not going to vote for the player who has won the most challenges. They’re going to vote for the player who played the best game. 

This is all speculation though, and I’m still enjoying this season overall, so I’m excited to find out how it all ends. 

Winners yet a huge bunch of morons. People who didnt win before knew to get Tony Out ASAP. But not former Winners including one who lets him screw her over again and again 

[skybolt]

So the returning EoE player has all the information about the remaining players from the ones voted off, as well as at tribal. However, if Natalie comes back, no one has any clue what she's been up to and what her social connections were on EoE. The remaining 5 may just take her to the end because she was voted out first and is not a big name player. It's another disadvantage for a player who made it to the end without being voted off having to figure out someone coming out of the blue.

[lasu]

How does someone as gullible as Nick become a lawyer?  Someone told him it would be a good idea and he fell for it?

[iMonrey]

Quote

I don't understand why posters think Tony is a lock to win if he makes final 3, and that players like Sarah and Denise are stupid for not getting rid of him.

Because the show has been telegraphing it for about five or six weeks now.

Quote

Still so disappointed that Rob and the other old schoolers didn’t get a chance to play this season. 

Rob had a chance to play. He's played five times now by my count. And counting last season this is his sixth season. How many "chances" does he need, exactly? He got voted out early but that doesn't mean he didn't have a chance to play. Every last one of them had that chance.

[llongori]

How did we get to page 3 and no one has mentioned the lovely EOE eye candy of Ethan and Yul doing yoga?  Anyone have a screen cap?

[skybolt]

32 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Because the show has been telegraphing it for about five or six weeks now.

Rob had a chance to play. He's played five times now by my count. And counting last season this is his sixth season. How many "chances" does he need, exactly? He got voted out early but that doesn't mean he didn't have a chance to play. Every last one of them had that chance.

I'm one of those people who was pissed that the old school players were voted out first and couldn't wait for a couple of them to re-enter the game. However, that ship has sailed, and as far as I'm concerned, I'm fully invested in the remaining players (for better or worse).

32 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Because the show has been telegraphing it for about five or six weeks now.

Rob had a chance to play. He's played five times now by my count. And counting last season this is his sixth season. How many "chances" does he need, exactly? He got voted out early but that doesn't mean he didn't have a chance to play. Every last one of them had that chance.

I'm one of those people who was pissed that the old school players were voted out first and couldn't wait for a couple of them to re-enter the game. However, that ship has sailed, and as far as I'm concerned, I'm fully invested in the remaining players (for better or worse).

[ByaNose]

It was interesting that Ben said (out loud) that he was the only one not to receive any free tokens. He knows he doesn’t have any friends on the jury which is a lot of people. I don’t know if it was intentional or not. I know everyone tried to get him out on his season but he won out and found idols but he also wasn’t liked then either. I guess he’s not the warm & fuzzy type. 

[AntFTW]

I'm not entirely clear on what was Nick's plan. Give the disadvantage to Ben so that Michele or Nick wins... and then what?

[violet and green]

12 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

I'm not entirely clear on what was Nick's plan. Give the disadvantage to Ben so that Michele or Nick wins... and then what?

Get rid of Ben, I guess. I was stunned he didn't immediately think, Give the disadvantage to Tony because we can't let him win another Immunity. But that's how well snowed Nick was by Tony re his place in his close circle.

I feel sorry for Nick as he hasn't had the best edit this time and just seemed lost and floundering, and then he essentially arranged his own vote out by that series of choices in this double ep.

[marys1000]

I mostly scrolled on my phone till the EoE part.  Ben, Michelle, whatever, just shifting tgts.  Tony and Sarah are the only two interesting to me, Denise says she has all these moves done and I guess so but I can't even remember them.  I do like her ok. 

Still like the EoE players and their games far better.  This season just doesn't hold my interest. 

If Natalie wins her way back in and doesn't win I will be sooooo pissed.  I will only be slightly less pissed if she doesn't win because she isn't in final 3.  Were she to make final 3 and not win?  No. 

[blackwing]

Granted, I despise Ben, but I feel like the disadvantage wasn't enough of a disadvantage.  So he had to build 30% more.  Big deal.  That was like 8 blocks or so.  Easy to make up that time considering people were going at different paces.  The fact that he almost won is evidence of that.  I think it should have been more of a disadvantage, maybe something like one hand was tied behind his back.  Not being able to use one hand to balance himself while stepping through those ropes might have been a lot more difficult.

Better yet, for an astounding EIGHT fire tokens I feel like it should have given Nick more power in the game.  A vote nullifier or a steal a vote seems like it would have been perfect.  I just don't think it was enough chaos.  But then again, I hate Ben, Tony and Sarah so would have appreciated any move that would have taken away their power.

[peachmangosteen]

6 hours ago, fishcakes said:

I want to root for her, but then she did the dorkiest end zone celebration dance ever and now I'm conflicted.

That dance is basically the reason I'm rooting for her!

5 hours ago, HurricaneVal said:

This whole fire coin thing has been poorly explained and handled by the show.  I had no idea that they were supplementing their food supply by using their fire coins to buy rice for the tribe.  No wonder we hardly ever saw anyone out in the bay spearfishing or foraging, or scraping and toasting coconut at camp.

I didn't even pick up that they've been doing that all along. I figured that was the first time anyone had bought anything with their tokens. The tokens in general were completely pointless though.

4 hours ago, Richness said:

Say what you will about all the whispering, but both Tribal Councils were boring as hell tonight without it.

They were boring with the whispering, too. I think maybe the show is just kinda boring now lol.

8 minutes ago, marys1000 said:

If Natalie wins her way back in and doesn't win I will be sooooo pissed.  I will only be slightly less pissed if she doesn't win because she isn't in final 3.  Were she to make final 3 and not win?  No. 

I really kinda want Natalie to make F3 and then win but pretty much only because it would be hilarious since the players themselves claimed to hate EoE and the fans hated Chris winning but would probably love Natalie winning. But also tbh I feel like Natalie has done more in this game than a lot of the others and she was only in it for 3 days. Which says more about the other players than her really.

[AntFTW]

56 minutes ago, blackwing said:

Granted, I despise Ben, but I feel like the disadvantage wasn't enough of a disadvantage.  So he had to build 30% more.  Big deal.  That was like 8 blocks or so.  Easy to make up that time considering people were going at different paces.  The fact that he almost won is evidence of that.  I think it should have been more of a disadvantage, maybe something like one hand was tied behind his back.  Not being able to use one hand to balance himself while stepping through those ropes might have been a lot more difficult.

Better yet, for an astounding EIGHT fire tokens I feel like it should have given Nick more power in the game.  A vote nullifier or a steal a vote seems like it would have been perfect.  I just don't think it was enough chaos.  But then again, I hate Ben, Tony and Sarah so would have appreciated any move that would have taken away their power.

The disadvantage that Tony got from EoE, that was worth 8 fire tokens.

[Matty]

Of the people left I would like to see a Tony, Michelle, Natalie final three. Tony may be annoying to some but he is always hustling. He works hard at the game and never stops. He cracks me up spying on everyone in the secret tree house.

Michelle has not been on my radar at all, but last night she seemed to be playing the game and going for broke. If she keeps up this way and wins more immunity challenges leading up to the final, she might just make it and that's after being at the bottom of the heap all season. I like when someone who is not in the cool clique wins.

As for Natalie, she is tough. She's been on EofE island for a month and she hauled herself to that rock throne for the advantage ahead of everyone else. She really is resilient.

If these three make it to the end I think I would be rooting for Michelle to win, as the underdog who kept scrapping to the end and never gave up. I don't think the jury would vote for her to win the two million though.

I don't think this will be the final three. I can wish though. Just not Ben, or Sarah, or Denise! Please!

 

 

[Fake Jan Brady]

10 hours ago, skybolt said:

Also, based on the last EoE challenge, the second and third advantages are fairly minor. Please note that another 5 players have 2 advantages each for the challenge. I bet the extra one will only save her a couple of seconds. I wonder if they'll get a massive puzzle at the end to help even things out. 

You can freeze frame the challenge menu to see what it is and what the advantages are; it's an understatement to say that Natalie's in a very good position.

[blackwing]

3 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

That dance is basically the reason I'm rooting for her!

I didn't even pick up that they've been doing that all along. I figured that was the first time anyone had bought anything with their tokens. The tokens in general were completely pointless though.

I really kinda want Natalie to make F3 and then win but pretty much only because it would be hilarious since the players themselves claimed to hate EoE and the fans hated Chris winning but would probably love Natalie winning. But also tbh I feel like Natalie has done more in this game than a lot of the others and she was only in it for 3 days. Which says more about the other players than her really.

I too think I was won over by Michelle's juvenilely stupid dance.  And the juvenilely stupid little "nyah nyah nyah booboo you can't get rid of me" ditty she sang in her confessional.  It was strangely endearing, and when up against a paranoid control freak like Tony, an arrogant and overconfident rich like Sarah, and an utterly useless waste of space like Ben... I'd vote for her just for that.

I too was completely confused when Jeffy said "tonight is the last night you can spend tokens".  I was like,  "on what?"  My question now is that if the players in the game have been spending tokens, how are the Edgers aware of how many each has when they are considering who to give advantages to.  Do they get a daily report?  They can see who won immunity and they will know who got the newly booted person's tokens, but they won't know who is sharing tokens or spending tokens.

I am really hoping that Tyson's comment that Natalie is the "Queen of Extinction" indicates she wins.  There was way too much focus on Natalie during those 10 minutes for this not to mean anything.  Some of the other Edgers didn't get featured at all during that endless segment, or were barely seen.  I hope she makes it back and I hope Tyson's comment indicates that the jury has lots of respect for her.  I fully agree that she was worked a lot harder in the game.  She has literally survived on Extinction and she sent the last two disadvantages in the game.

[Hera]

22 hours ago, SuburbanHangSuite said:

But I need to know when Denise and Ben became so tight?  That's the one that seems to be out of left-field for me.

Ben helped Denise find her idol on the original Sele, so they've always been tight—they just haven't been very obvious about it (and/or the editors haven't felt the need to show us much of it). Since no one in Tony/Sarah's alliance has been targeting Denise, there's been no reason for Ben to intervene on her behalf.

9 hours ago, fishcakes said:

I can't figure out Michele's game; she has a really good handle on what's going on, and yet she's almost always on the wrong side of the vote.

21 hours ago, ByaNose said:

Michelle has a good read on the game just like Kim did. Unfortunately, they didn’t listen to Kim & no one cares what Michelle thinks either.

Both Michele and Kim played from the bottom this season in a way that neither one did in her original season, but both of them have good social acumen. That's how Kim was so dominant on One World and I think contributed greatly to Michele's win as well, even if she didn't dominate her season in quite the same way. In Kaôh Rōng, Michele won an advantage that allowed her to remove a juror, and the guy she picked—Neal—basically proved that she made a sound choice by berating her for it.

During Cambodia (Jeremy's season), I remember there was discussion about how well Jeremy and Kelley Wentworth were playing and speculation on who would have the better argument if they were sitting next one another at Final Tribal Council. Kelley got voted out at Final Four, so it never got tested, but I can say that if I were a juror, I probably would have given it to Kelley because she had a tougher path through the game than Jeremy did. For a similar reason, I don't think the win is out of reach for Michele if she can get to the end. Maybe not against Tony (I think this jury is likely to reward him for controlling the post-merge game the way he has), but I think she'd be a contender in any Final Three that didn't include him. Her main competition would be Denise, which is interesting because realistically, I don't think either one of them gets to the end without teaming up with the other.

My ideal finale would involve the two of them and the Edge of Extinction returnee working together to take Tony down. It would be a shame for Tony, who has played really well, but would be far more interesting than watching him dominate his way to victory.

8 hours ago, iMonrey said:

As for why everyone seems to be handing the money right over to Tony, I suspect a lot of what the other players think pads their resume doesn't make it onto the show.

Yes. It must be an odd experience for the players watching the show, because it means they can see moves and conversations that they weren't privy to during the game, and only heard about second hand later on. But they're also aware of moves and conversations that the rest of the audience isn't privy to because they were left on the editing room floor.

7 hours ago, SoWindsor said:

Still so disappointed that Rob and the other old schoolers didn’t get a chance to play this season. 

I maintain that the Old Schoolers have no one but themselves to blame for that, especially Rob, Parvati, and Ethan. If you're going to have an unbreakable three person alliance, you should be a lot less obvious about it. I think all three of them had New Schoolers who were willing to work with them, but it would have meant not being able to work together. Danni turned on her fellow Old Schoolers first, Sandra got outplayed, and Yul was unlucky in a tribal swap. I don't believe that any of the New Schoolers set out to take the Old Schoolers out, and I don't even think that particular division was on anyone's mind going into the game. After all, the first person voted out was Natalie, which was done to keep her and Jeremy (who are both New Schoolers) from teaming up again.

[30 Helens]

If nothing else, this episode proved how important editing is on our perception of the players. We all know that each 40-minute episode is distilled from about 100 hours of footage, and that what we see is chosen more for its narrative value than its representation of the actual gameplay. So this week, we saw Michelle emerge from the shadows and make some moves. That proves she is capable of strategic thinking. So why have we never seen that before? The likely answer is, because it didn’t fit the narrative.

I have been as hard on Michelle as anyone, but this episode reminded me how wrong my perception could be, simply because the editors don’t like her.  Maybe she deserved to win her season after all. I don’t know. But I hold tight to my perception of Ben as an annoying tool, and no fire-making redemption arc is going to convince me otherwise. 

Based solely on the editing, I predict a final 3 of Tony, Michelle and Natalie.  Not the 3 I would have chosen, by any means, but I would be fine with that outcome. I love Tony,  and I think he is often underestimated (by players as well as viewers) because of his manic shtick. As camouflage, it’s genius. I still won’t be happy with a Michelle win, because I think an epic season of winners needs a better ending than Underdog Makes Good.  But if not Tony, I’d also be fine with a Natalie win.

15 hours ago, blackwing said:

Unlike with the original Edge season, where Chris and the others truly did next to nothing, I think these WoW Edgers have had a much harder time and have been much more involved in gameplay and strategizing to some extent.  Natalie changed the game by getting the advantage to Nick.  Without Natalie giving Nick the advantage, Michelle would have been sent home.  And in return, Natalie got enough fire tokens to buy every advantage she could to get back in the game.

I made a similar point last week about the EoE’ers and their parallel game play. Like the players on the main stage, they have been working their asses off. They have been running challenges and they have been strategizing about how to affect the game to their own advantage. The only thing they could not do is vote someone off.  But they have been playing, and a few of them have played hard enough to merit a win. 

Natalie has been on that island the entire time, subsisting on scraps of food, yet remaining strong and focused enough to dominate the challenges and rack up the points. At the same time, she has played an excellent social game. I agree with Parvati— she’s a superhero. If you’re looking for the Best of the Best, I think you could do a lot worse.

[SVNBob]

On 5/6/2020 at 9:25 PM, Lantern7 said:

umber of tokens she wound up obtaining, she should have been able to buy her way back outright. The others can compete for another spot, but the hard work for her to make a comeback should stop now. I think she had sixteen tokens before she spent them on advantages and peanut butter. She actually got Nick to pay eight tokens to screw Ben's game. EIGHT! If fire tokens return, she would be the main reason why they'd come back.

Only 14, per the final chyron.  Still, she was the 1% of the Edge.  Everyone else had 2 max before the final spending moment.  And the majority had 0.

On 5/6/2020 at 9:34 PM, ByaNose said:

I was taken aback by Natalie giving Tyson an idol. I guess Jeremy isn't her bae after all. 

On 5/6/2020 at 10:28 PM, vb68 said:

I thought she could had given one to Parvati too because they seemed in cahoots much of the time, and it seemed like they bonded. Maybe Natalie was thinking Tyson got back in before, so he stood the best chance to do so again if she doesn't get back in herself?

I'm 100% sure this is the reason.

On 5/6/2020 at 11:32 PM, AntFTW said:

I thought Jeff was gonna flip [the 50/50 coin].

Per the rules that came with it, the person that had the coin had to do the flip.

On 5/7/2020 at 12:14 AM, Steph Sometimes said:

Can we just crown Natalie queen of something?

She is Queen of the Edge.  And if there had been a standard live reunion (there won't be), and a woman didn't win the season, Sandra would have handed her crown to Natalie for that reason.

On 5/7/2020 at 12:25 AM, GaT said:

Why did they spend so much time on that recap of the season? Did they need padding to fill out the 2nd hour?

Better the recap now than taking up valuable time in the finale.

21 hours ago, Josh371982 said:

Lol I cant stand both but no way in hell Natalie Deserves a Win it would be as bad as Chris 

On the one hand, worse, since Nat was the first voted out, and Chris was the 3rd.  But also better, since she hustled the entire time she was there.

19 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

I thought the talk about how long it takes all of them to trust people after they go home was interesting and revealing.  Ben said he didn't even trust his wife for the first few months. 

I found that part entirely fascinating too.  We've always heard about how being on Survivor physically messes people up for a long time after.  But we've never really heard about how it also affects players mentally.  I'm glad they spent the time on letting that segment breathe in this episode.

18 hours ago, blackwing said:

I think Denise's strategy must be just that... get taken to the end and hope she wins because people think she is nicer than that other finalists.  Her whole martyr act of "I'm getting voted out, but I want to go out with rice in my belly" was puzzling.  I thought it was a play to the jury.  "I'm so noble and self-sacrificing, but I survived and here I am at the end."  I thought when she said that, she was already the #4 joined with the Triumvirate of Evil.

I don't necessarily think cops have an advantage, because the chief example is Sarah's complete befuddlement at the thought that nobody can beat Tony.  And her apparent disillusion that she stands a chance against him.

I think there are plenty of "real" Survivor fans on this board and I for one would welcome a Natalie win.  In fact, I would welcome a win by anyone from the Edge except for Wendell, Adam, Tyson or Jeremy.  That's how much I dislike the Triumvirate of Evil.  Unlike with the original Edge season, where Chris and the others truly did next to nothing, I think these WoW Edgers have had a much harder time and have been much more involved in gameplay and strategizing to some extent.  Natalie changed the game by getting the advantage to Nick.  Without Natalie giving Nick the advantage, Michelle would have been sent home.  And in return, Natalie got enough fire tokens to buy every advantage she could to get back in the game.

Natalie said she had 14 tokens.  8 were from Nick/Michelle.  Can anyone tell if this means she split the previous 6 Tony disadvantage tokens with Parv, or did she keep them all?

Parv's last chyron count was 2, which she earned from the Coconut Haul.  She didn't get any tokens from the extortion.

However, by my Tracking, Natalie should have had 16.  Unless she decided to save 2 for matching souvenirs (one for her and one for Nidiya.)  She may have given 2 tokens away, but if she did, they didn't go to Parv.

18 hours ago, skybolt said:

She definitely kept them all. I'm assuming the idol costs more tokens now than it did before. 

Everything went up in price after the first Return challenge, on both sides.  Peanut butter cost 1 token before, but 4 after.

16 hours ago, skybolt said:

I can understand giving him an idol to perhaps get his jury vote if he makes it back, but why give him peanut butter again after he didn't share last time and won the challenge?

Nobody knew about his peanut butter, as far as I know.  Tyson went to great lengths to hide the entire transaction, from finding the Nulifier until the challenge was completed.

14 hours ago, RedbirdNelly said:

I was shocked when they said "stay tuned for scenes from next week's Survivor." I told my husband "isn't that what we just watched for 10 minutes?"

Those last 10 minutes were a recap, not a preview.

12 hours ago, skybolt said:

 Also, how come advantages are still one token, while presumably the immunity idol and food have gone up in price?

Advantages cost 2 tokens now.  Everyone that had 2 tokens (from the Coconuts) bought only 1.  Natalie said she spent 6 for her 3 advantages.

[skybolt]

3 hours ago, SVNBob said:

However, by my Tracking, Natalie should have had 16.  Unless she decided to save 2 for matching souvenirs (one for her and one for Nidiya.)  She may have given 2 tokens away, but if she did, they didn't go to Parv.

Everything went up in price after the first Return challenge, on both sides.  Peanut butter cost 1 token before, but 4 after.

Advantages cost 2 tokens now.  Everyone that had 2 tokens (from the Coconuts) bought only 1.  Natalie said she spent 6 for her 3 advantages.

Thanks for the additional information. Does it makes sense that she did have 16 fire tokens? 6 for advantages, 4 for peanut, and if idols also doubled in priced, I assume they cost 6 tokens now.

Also, a former player noted that Tyson actually shared a bit of his peanut butter with Parvati before reentering the game last time. Perhaps this started the whole peanut butter obsession with Parvati and others.

[skybolt]

Denise is an interesting player. Although she's great at misdirection, she also is not 100% comfortable in this environment. I don't believe for a minute she wants to get voted out, but she's definitely not enjoying some of the dynamics related to the game. This also goes back to her initial season where Malcolm has recently shared that during a really bad storm he had to talk Denise into staying in the game, which helped them bond on the island. 

Edited May 8, 2020 by skybolt

[skybolt]

Michelle did a great job trying to convince Sarah that she cannot beat Tony. Although she did the best job she could, it would make zero sense for Sarah to turn on Tony until at least the final 4. If Tony was eliminated at 6, she would certainly be next, especially without an idol in her pocket. Instead of being in the top 3 with Tony and Ben, now she would likely be at the bottom, unless the returning survivor was Sophie. That being said, if she does win immunity at final 4, I would easily put Tony up against Ben in a fire making challenge (if all 3 players are still there).

Going back to Natalie's move of giving Tyson the idol. I was thinking about it more and realized that Natalie is likely factoring in that Tyson is a super influential player. If he selflessly expresses his feelings to others that Natalie should win (if she makes final tribal), I guarantee that a few of the survivors would listen to him. You could say that giving the idol to Parvati would accomplish the same thing, but I just feel like Tyson can appear more genuine than players like Rob or Parvati when expressing his feelings.  You don't get the sense that he's trying to manipulate you, especially if stumping for someone else.

[ChicksDigScars]

20 hours ago, HurricaneVal said:

Nobody likes Ben.  That is obvious.  He is a huge threat at challenges as well.  Why is he still in the game?  I have no idea.  If the strategy is to keep him as a goat at the end, so his unlikeability gives the other player an advantage, that is a very dangerous game to play because Ben is a dangerous goat.  He can point out his challenge performances to the jury, and how even though he was unpopular he stuck it to the end.  Sometimes bitter juries go for crap like that.

Vote.  Out.  Ben.  Is it that hard? 

That was some unbelievably bad rice they were chowing down on at EoE.  Poor JeremyI   I think that maybe the players still in the game think that EoE is luxurious compared to their experience, but Jeremy learned the hard way it is not.  That rice was burned and skimpy.  One spoonful each?  At least they saved a nice portion for Jeremy, and not a mouthful that was totally burned. 

This whole fire coin thing has been poorly explained and handled by the show.  I had no idea that they were supplementing their food supply by using their fire coins to buy rice for the tribe.  No wonder we hardly ever saw anyone out in the bay spearfishing or foraging, or scraping and toasting coconut at camp.  They just go to the Survivor bodega down the beach and pick up supplies.  Not until last night when Denise explicitly talked about cooking up a big portion of rice, then using her fire token to buy another bag for the rest of the tribe did I realize that's what they were doing.  It does put an interesting dynamic into the game, who hoards their tokens for personal use, who spends their tokens for the good of the tribe...  Interesting only if they actually show it, that is.  Yeah, they show us when people needed extra tokens to buy this or that advantage dangling in front of them, but that isn't as interesting as the deeper token game being played.

What this season is teaching me is that New School Survivor is really kind of boring.  It is all about idols and advantages and swing voting to play around the advantages potentially being played.  BO-ring.

Nice that Michele finally got to play.  Sometimes a late season push wins the day, because your competitors got complacent and a late surge can impress the jury.

Vote.  Out.  Ben.

A-fucking-MEN to all of this.  Especially the Old vs. New Survivor. New School Survivor has been ruined by hidden advantages and immunity idols that has made the show less Survivor and more Scavenger Hunt.  There's a reason that the Old School Players are Survivor icons, while the New School winners all melt into each other like one nondescript, easily forgotten, what-was-his-name-again, blob.

 

When was the last time we got a "eat the gross shit" challenge? 

 

And it pains me to look at Danni right now. Complete starvation is not entertaining.

 

And Ben can fuck ALL the way off. His irrational dislike of Jeremy is unsettling to me. It's not game play. It's hate and it's jealousy.  Like deep down, I KNOW the real reason why. 

Edited May 8, 2020 by ChicksDigScars

[AntFTW]

So Tony heard Denise’s conversation with Ben and Sarah at the water well about a Final 3 without Tony.

As far as we saw, Ben and Sarah didn’t tell Tony about that conversation. I’m wondering does that make Tony worry a little about that.

[skybolt]

20 hours ago, HurricaneVal said:

Nobody likes Ben.  That is obvious.  He is a huge threat at challenges as well.  Why is he still in the game?  I have no idea.  If the strategy is to keep him as a goat at the end, so his unlikeability gives the other player an advantage, that is a very dangerous game to play because Ben is a dangerous goat.  He can point out his challenge performances to the jury, and how even though he was unpopular he stuck it to the end.  Sometimes bitter juries go for crap like that.

Vote.  Out.  Ben.  Is it that hard? 

 

I understand your point and felt like Nick made a really bad choice not siding with Jeremy and Michelle to vote Ben out. However, if you're Tony or Sarah, why in the world would you want to vote out Ben now? He has proven over and over again that he's loyal to you and you need to maintain that 3 person strong alliance with 2 idols in hand, especially with someone coming back from EoE. Can you imagine them voting out Ben now and Wendell returns to join forces with Nick and Michelle? As far as jury votes are concerned, you could also make a case for players like Denise, Michelle and the returning EoE person getting their share of votes.

Now as far as the fire making challenge is concerned, here's my take. If Tony or Sarah win final immunity, I bet they have the other person go up against Ben in a fire making challenge. This is a strategic move for them to get rid of the other person. If Ben wins I guarantee that Sarah or Ben convince him to give up his necklace and beat the other person to prove himself to the jury like Chris did. If that other player is Denise or Michelle, it's not a big deal. However, if it's Rob, then Tony would be telling Ben he's the king of the jungle if he can pull off that move. Yes, i someone like Michelle wins final immunity then Tony risks getting pitted against Ben, but you take your chances 1 vs. 4.

[skybolt]

21 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

So Tony heard Denise’s conversation with Ben and Sarah at the water well about a Final 3 without Tony.

As far as we saw, Ben and Sarah didn’t tell Tony about that conversation. I’m wondering does that make Tony worry a little about that.

I would say no since as a cop Sarah knows that Tony could be up there at anytime. He already told her about it before. In all honesty, I think the spy nest is more of a fun thing for Tony to do than strategic play. In a secret scene from last week, all the players are saying their energy is at 1 or 2 out of 10, and Tony says he's at 15. He wants to do something to burn off that energy. In the pre winners at war interview (or maybe it was Cagayan) he mentioned eating 5 avocados a day (in a addition to his regular meals) to build up healthy fat to burn off on the island.

[Gummo]

4 minutes ago, skybolt said:

In the pre winners at war interview (or maybe it was Cagayan) he mentioned eating 5 avocados a day (in a addition to his regular meals) to build up healthy fat to burn off on the island.

Very smart. He's played a good game. It's just that his obvious and inevitable march toward the win hasn't made for very good TV.

[peachmangosteen]

13 hours ago, Matty said:

Of the people left I would like to see a Tony, Michelle, Natalie final three.

Honestly, that would be a great F3 because, if not for the edit, it would be hard to predict who would win that. Unfortunately, the edit makes it obvious that Tony is the likeliest winner though.

1 hour ago, AntFTW said:

So Tony heard Denise’s conversation with Ben and Sarah at the water well about a Final 3 without Tony.

As far as we saw, Ben and Sarah didn’t tell Tony about that conversation. I’m wondering does that make Tony worry a little about that.

I am sure Sarah told him. Or, at least, he confronted her about it and she gave it up because he always confronts people about things because he's a bit control freak-ish and everyone always gives it up to him when confronted.

[skybolt]

5 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

Honestly, that would be a great F3 because, if not for the edit, it would be hard to predict who would win that. Unfortunately, the edit makes it obvious that Tony is the likeliest winner though.

I would add Tyson to that mix. He has gotten a somewhat winner's edit as well. Sarah is not far behind if she takes out Tony.

[Hera]

9 hours ago, 30 Helens said:

Natalie has been on that island the entire time, subsisting on scraps of food, yet remaining strong and focused enough to dominate the challenges and rack up the points. At the same time, she has played an excellent social game. I agree with Parvati— she’s a superhero. If you’re looking for the Best of the Best, I think you could do a lot worse.

Something that has been suggested on this forum before (and which Zeus said when we were watching last night) is that Edge of Extinction should be a separate game with its own prize (maybe $100,000 - $500,000). I agree that Natalie deserves something for all her hustle but I'm against bringing back someone who was voted out, especially this late in the game, and I'd really resent that person going on to win (I missed the first Edge of Extinction season, but it sounds like that winner would have been disappointing for me). If someone must be brought back, I think the merge is the natural point for that.

[fishcakes]

2 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

I am sure Sarah told him. Or, at least, he confronted her about it and she gave it up because he always confronts people about things because he's a bit control freak-ish and everyone always gives it up to him when confronted.

Sarah was probably in on it with him. We saw her go up to the water well alone last week and yell up to Tony, "it's just me, T" so she knows about Spy Nest, my favorite of all the spy hideouts because this ...

... is commitment.

I'm guessing Sarah knew Tony was up there when she was having the conversation with Denise and Ben and probably even led them there for that reason. Tony can't sit in a tree all day, so he likely tells Sarah when he's going to be up there so she can bring people in for him to spy on. It would be interesting if Ben hadn't told him (or at least as interesting as anything Ben-related can be), but it probably happened and they just didn't show it. Ben is Mr. Verbal Diarrhea, so if Tony even looked at him sideways, Ben would spill it.

[blackwing]

2 hours ago, skybolt said:

Michelle did a great job trying to convince Sarah that she cannot beat Tony. Although she did the best job she could, it would make zero sense for Sarah to turn on Tony until at least the final 4. If Tony was eliminated at 6, she would certainly be next, especially without an idol in her pocket. Instead of being in the top 3 with Tony and Ben, now she would likely be at the bottom, unless the returning survivor was Sophie. That being said, if she does win immunity at final 4, I would easily put Tony up against Ben in a fire making challenge (if all 3 players are still there).

I think if Sarah turned on Tony at final 4, at that point it would be too late.  I know if I were on the jury I wouldn't vote for her.  I would view her as someone who road someone's coattails the entire game and then finally realized that she needed to vote him out.  Sarah has been nothing but a follower in this game.  Even when Tony voted out her ally Sophie, she yelled at him but then went crawling right back to him.  If she wanted a bigger chance at winning the game, she would band with Michelle and Denise to take out Tony.

The problem is, he has an idol.  And he will probably play it.  When is the last time an idol can be played?  At final 6 after the EoE returnee comes back?  Or at final 5?

Ben has an idol too.  Ugh.

Screw Denise for being content to be #4 in that alliance.  She is delusional if she doesn't know she's at the bottom.  The best thing to happen would be if Denise, Michelle and the returnee banded together to target one of the Triumvirate of Evil.  I'd probably target Sarah.  Have Denise pretend to betray Michelle and tell Tony it's him but that the four of them will target the returnee.

If the returnee is Natalie, and Natalie plays her idol, that would be amazing.  Does anyone still in the game know she has one?  I would have to think that with all the focus on Natalie showing her idol and saying it's still good, plus showing her buying Tyson one out of generosity, that she HAS to be coming back, right?

I'm assuming that if they don't get back in the game, that Rob, Tyson or Natalie cannot give their idols to the returnee, right?

 

[skybolt]

15 minutes ago, Hera said:

Something that has been suggested on this forum before (and which Zeus said when we were watching last night) is that Edge of Extinction should be a separate game with its own prize (maybe $100,000 - $500,000). I agree that Natalie deserves something for all her hustle but I'm against bringing back someone who was voted out, especially this late in the game, and I'd really resent that person going on to win (I missed the first Edge of Extinction season, but it sounds like that winner would have been disappointing for me). If someone must be brought back, I think the merge is the natural point for that.

I definitely agree, and this is coming from someone who loves Natalie. She has clearly been the best player on EoE, but I honestly believe it's because most of the other players have already checked out mentally. I give her credit for being mentally tough and doing everything possible to get back in the game, but it's a lot easier to do that when you don't have Sandra, Parvati or Rob trying to back stab you at every turn. Back in the real game you have people like Kim and Tony laying low early on to keep the target off their backs. Ben was not searching for idols. Michelle is scrambling to stay alive. You have all these mind games going on. At EoE everyone is starving, low on energy, bored to death and ready to get this over with. It reminds me when we had our soccer league. When our team got eliminated in the quarterfinals, we decided to play a pick-up game with another losing team. That pick-up game had absolutely zero tension since the best players on both sides were giving 20% effort. Players like myself looked like all stars just because I was trying and they weren't.

Edited May 8, 2020 by skybolt

[skybolt]

13 minutes ago, fishcakes said:

Sarah was probably in on it with him. We saw her go up to the water well alone last week and yell up to Tony, "it's just me, T" so she knows about Spy Nest, my favorite of all the spy hideouts because this ...

... is commitment.

I'm guessing Sarah knew Tony was up there when she was having the conversation with Denise and Ben and probably even led them there for that reason. Tony can't sit in a tree all day, so he likely tells Sarah when he's going to be up there so she can bring people in for him to spy on. It would be interesting if Ben hadn't told him (or at least as interesting as anything Ben-related can be), but it probably happened and they just didn't show it. Ben is Mr. Verbal Diarrhea, so if Tony even looked at him sideways, Ben would spill it.

It would've been a good strategy for Sarah to pretend she needed to go to the restroom so Tony can listen to what Ben and Denise were saying in private.

[peachmangosteen]

10 minutes ago, blackwing said:

The problem is, he has an idol.  And he will probably play it.  When is the last time an idol can be played?  At final 6 after the EoE returnee comes back?  Or at final 5?

F5.

[skybolt]

12 minutes ago, blackwing said:

I think if Sarah turned on Tony at final 4, at that point it would be too late.  I know if I were on the jury I wouldn't vote for her.  I would view her as someone who road someone's coattails the entire game and then finally realized that she needed to vote him out.  Sarah has been nothing but a follower in this game.  Even when Tony voted out her ally Sophie, she yelled at him but then went crawling right back to him.  If she wanted a bigger chance at winning the game, she would band with Michelle and Denise to take out Tony.

The problem is, he has an idol.  And he will probably play it.  When is the last time an idol can be played?  At final 6 after the EoE returnee comes back?  Or at final 5?

Ben has an idol too.  Ugh.

Screw Denise for being content to be #4 in that alliance.  She is delusional if she doesn't know she's at the bottom.  The best thing to happen would be if Denise, Michelle and the returnee banded together to target one of the Triumvirate of Evil.  I'd probably target Sarah.  Have Denise pretend to betray Michelle and tell Tony it's him but that the four of them will target the returnee.

If the returnee is Natalie, and Natalie plays her idol, that would be amazing.  Does anyone still in the game know she has one?  I would have to think that with all the focus on Natalie showing her idol and saying it's still good, plus showing her buying Tyson one out of generosity, that she HAS to be coming back, right?

I'm assuming that if they don't get back in the game, that Rob, Tyson or Natalie cannot give their idols to the returnee, right?

 

I think this is exactly why Tony took out Sophie. He wanted to eliminate her numbers so she's forced to stay loyal to him. 

I don't believe anyone knows anything about Natalie having an idol. I highly doubt her and Rob told Tyson anything last time around before he came back. I don't think idols can be shared after the challenge ends.

I don't agree with this "triumvirate of evil" statement being tossed around to describe Tony and Sarah. Just because they're playing the game doesn't make them evil. It's not like they're burning people's socks or berating them. They are playing survivor to win just like everyone else.