S05.E09: Bad Choice Road

[ShadowFacts]

3 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Yes, I didn't make myself clear, I didn't think Kim was a ranting, hysterical woman, I thought Lalo was telling himself that to save face, so he could alow himself to turn and walk out rather than make the noisy mess of having to shoot the two of them -- because I think if Saul had said the same thing ('you don't understand how things are north of the border, you don't have control of your people') he would have probably, at the least, hit him. He may have heard the truth in some of her words but Lalo isn't Kevin, he isn't looking for advice or constructive criticism, he probably wouldn't take that from anyone other than someone like Hector who he clearly idolized at one time.

My husband agrees with you and thought her speech made Lalo "respect" Kim.  I don't agree.  If Lalo was going to respect Kim he would have already after she, a highly educated lawyer came to jail to talk to him, but even after that he was dismissive of her and shushed her. I don't think his type ever respects women. I think his idea of a firey woman would be one who does a little yelling before he slaps her.  

I also doubt that Lalo respects Kim.  I think he thought she was a fool to come to the jail to ask after her hapless husband.  He was there not to kill them, it would be too messy, but with a gun to intimidate.  He knows from the way the bullets hit the Esteem that it wasn't some yahoos goofing around, he knows there was an attempted hijacking.  Something Kim said about his trusting underlings has him on a new path before he returns to Mexico.  I see him as like Gus and all the higher-up thugs, he'll keep someone around as long as they're useful.  But respect, not really. 

[Eulipian 5k]

On 4/14/2020 at 9:25 AM, Bannon said:

Oh, yes, people desperately trying to maintain the illusion of control is a central element of this universe. The writers have nearly all the characters struggle with it.

Exhibit 1: Chuck McGill. Was he under the control of his "illness" or was he using  it to control others? Or was he controlling it with his foil underwear, while controlling HMM? Or...?

Exhibit 2: Jimmy McGill controlling Saul Goodman (Slippin Jimmy).

19 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

I still don't understand Mike removing the license plate. 

It deems that was just a delay tactic, since he wasn't going to remove the VIN numbers stamped on the engine/car frame. Anybody can call in a License Plate quickly vs jumping into the ditch to read the VIN on the windshield. I agree with Kim that there are lots of shot up wrecks in the NM desert. (Never been there, just a guess).

Also: Doesn't Pro Bono refer to the cases an otherwise employed lawyer takes as charity? That is, you can't live off pro bono because there is no pay.

[Eulipian 5k]

18 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Move, Kim! Get out the way! So why didn't Mike take the shot when he had it?

I have a feeling he would have shot Kim if she said/knew anything about Mike or Gus' men. (At which point he would burn in hell and never make it to BB!)

[BonnieD]

Quote

Mike is suddenly downright helpful and almost congenial toward Jimmy, when he's always given me the impression he found him more of a means to an end than impressive or even likable. 

At first I was thinking his sudden patience with Saul was out of character. Then I realized they'd been through the desert together so it forged some sort of bond, at least temporarily. He really did want to help Saul get past it so he could function and not fall apart.

[peeayebee]

I think Lalo developed a grudging respect for Kim and for her and Saul's relationship. That in itself didn't cause him to walk away, but he realized he wasn't going to intimidate them into telling him the truth. I don't know what his plan is, but he decided to change course and go after someone else. Maybe he suspects Bolsa.

[PeterPirate]

52 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I also doubt that Lalo respects Kim.  I think he thought she was a fool to come to the jail to ask after her hapless husband.  He was there not to kill them, it would be too messy, but with a gun to intimidate.  He knows from the way the bullets hit the Esteem that it wasn't some yahoos goofing around, he knows there was an attempted hijacking.  Something Kim said about his trusting underlings has him on a new path before he returns to Mexico.  I see him as like Gus and all the higher-up thugs, he'll keep someone around as long as they're useful.  But respect, not really. 

Plenty of people here think Kim was a fool to visit Lalo in jail.  Lalo did not respect Kim enough to provide her with the coordinates of the well, but he also did not treat her with manifest disrespect during their conversation.  

I completely agree with the "useful" part.  It was one thing for Kim to visit Lalo in the safety of a lockup facility.  It was quite another for her to speak up when her life was on the line, and also to fashion a reasonably reasonable explanation for the bullet holes.  She can be of great value to the cartel.

[JudyObscure]

47 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

 

Also: Doesn't Pro Bono refer to the cases an otherwise employed lawyer takes as charity? That is, you can't live off pro bono because there is no pay.

Yes, please, someone, what's the difference between a  pro-bono lawyer and a court appointed one?  Saul's pesky competitor (who sure picked a bad time to tease Saul this episode) seems to be making a living as a prosecutor on small cases, I would think court appointed defense attorneys would make a living, however basic.  And Kim never has seemed much interested in a lavish lifestyle.  I just want her to have a nice little house.

[qtpye]

13 hours ago, Sam Spayaid said:

Was that before or after he tried to drown one of them? Vile old prick!

Even though most people naturally love their family, the family is everything motto is often used as a way to brainwash children into accepting abuse and keeping quite about family indiscretions. There  have been people who were raped and beaten as children who have had families shun them for not keeping the code of silence while turning a blind eye on the crimes of their abuser.

13 hours ago, Penman61 said:

Relatively trivial, but I was glad to have somebody in-show finally acknowledge the substantial looks gap between Jimmy and Kim. 

Of course Lalo was a bro-dick about it, but the disparity is a fact that no one else in the show universe has ever remarked on (that I can recall, anyway).

I always loved that the show kept relatively quiet about how most the world totally saw Kim out of Jimmy’s league. When it was briefly mentioned by Kevin, it had more to do with her elegance and class than the fact that Kim is a very attractive woman.

I just hate the trope on tv that guys always date out of their league looks wise. In real life, I know a good few couples where subjectively the man is better looking than his spouse. On tv this often leads to older men being paired with much younger women.

I feel like if Breaking Bad was a different show, we would of had people constantly commenting that Skylar was much too attractive for a post shaven Walt. Ironically, the only person to comment on it was Saul and it felt pretty disingenuous at the time, since he was trying to butter her up.

[JudyObscure]

Although, recently,  Bob Odenkirk is showing his age, when BCS started I thought he and Kim were both solid 8's and had no trouble believing they were an item.  He kind of did look like a young Paul Newman, and while Kim is very good looking she's no, well, Skylar.  While I hated the character, I thought Anne Gunn was truly beautiful.

20 minutes ago, qtpye said:

I know a good few couples where subjectively the man is better looking than his spouse.

I agree and it changes all the time.  The wife might gain baby weight or the man might get a recliner belly while the other one stays trim.  There's no telling when poor health might advance the aging process in one or the other.  

[ahmerali]

I think this can be boiled down to two very simple things.

1. Kim's upbringing, with a mother who seems to project all her faults on others, has given her a lifetime of practice dealing with unstable, angry people. She has become an expert at "you should have done x" and turning it back into "Look, don't blame me for your screwup. Can't you see that the real problem is y? Deal with that first before you take it on me."
It explains the soft spot she has for Jimmy, in a weird, almost perverse kind of way. I think she sort of admires the way Jimmy at least tries to dig himself out of his own messes, but laments the fact that he is addicted to making said messes. It also explains how she has been able to perform such excellent disarming takedowns of Chuck, Howard, Lalo, and even Jimmy at times.

2. Whatever Lalo thinks of Kim, she has tuned him into one important fact: whatever happened to Saul in the desert, there's important information that is missing from the picture, and Saul doesn't have it. Lalo has connected the dots in his head - Saul's car was clearly shot at, as part of an ambush. Saul doesn't have the wherewithal to escape said ambush by himself. So he had help.

Lalo is thinking:

Who helped him? Who would have known that he might have needed help? What would be that person (or people's) motive? And how in the world did they pull it off?

And mostly importantly, who dimed the money transfer in the first place?

That why Lalo realizes that trying to get answers out of Jimmy, even if they were forthcoming, isn't even ten percent as important as finding out the answers to these questions.

[Auntie Anxiety]

2 hours ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Also: Doesn't Pro Bono refer to the cases an otherwise employed lawyer takes as charity? That is, you can't live off pro bono because there is no pay.

Maybe not everywhere, but I believe you earn a small stipend for this kind of pro bono work.

[PeterPirate]

45 minutes ago, qtpye said:

I feel like if Breaking Bad was a different show, we would of had people constantly commenting that Skylar was much too attractive for a post shaven Walt. Ironically, the only person to comment on it was Saul and it felt pretty disingenuous at the time, since he was trying to butter her up.

I think Walt and Skylar are more understandable than Jimmy and Kim.  Walt was 10 years older than Skylar.  In the househunting flashback, Walt was working at Los Alamos Lab and had significant earning potential.  Even if we presume Skylar had the smarts to run her own accounting firm, she made life choices that resulted in her being a stay-at-home mom at around 23. 

[Eulipian 5k]

11 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

Even if we presume Skylar had the smarts to run her own accounting firm, she made life choices that resulted in her being a stay-at-home mom at around 23.

Her first child was a "special needs" child so that might have prompted that decision to stay home as things got Grey (Matter). What about Hank & Marie?

Leading men and all women in Hollywood had to have "Movie Star" looks; or else, you'll be a "character/supporting actor".

[sistermagpie]

8 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Leading men and all women in Hollywood had to have "Movie Star" looks; or else, you'll be a "character/supporting actor".

 

Lots of leading men on TV are more character-types or at least have flaws that make them less than perfect vs. their prettier wife. That's practically a running joke on sitcoms. But in general one the of great things about cable dramas is how they often reject that idea so completely. Tony Soprano is an obvious example.

Bob Odenkirk would I think be considered a character actor in terms of looks even at his peak. Character actors don't have to be homely.

Edited April 15, 2020 by sistermagpie

[Clanstarling]

2 hours ago, BonnieD said:

At first I was thinking his sudden patience with Saul was out of character. Then I realized they'd been through the desert together so it forged some sort of bond, at least temporarily. He really did want to help Saul get past it so he could function and not fall apart.

Or, a Saul who falls apart is a danger both to Mike and Fring. I do prefer your take though.

2 hours ago, peeayebee said:

I think Lalo developed a grudging respect for Kim and for her and Saul's relationship. 

I think he wasn't that impressed at their first meeting, but as you say, he developed a grudging respect for her. Not that many people would dare to be as in your face as Kim was.

1 hour ago, JudyObscure said:

Although, recently,  Bob Odenkirk is showing his age, when BCS started I thought he and Kim were both solid 8's and had no trouble believing they were an item.  He kind of did look like a young Paul Newman, and while Kim is very good looking she's no, well, Skylar.  While I hated the character, I thought Anne Gunn was truly beautiful.

I agree and it changes all the time.  The wife might gain baby weight or the man might get a recliner belly while the other one stays trim.  There's no telling when poor health might advance the aging process in one or the other.  

I personally think Odenkirk is pretty attractive,  even now. I never thought Anne Gunn was all that. I rarely think in terms of the good looks gap in couples, probably because my tastes are rarely in sync with others. Mileage varies so much when it comes to what we all respond to.

 

[PeterPirate]

8 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Her first child was a "special needs" child so that might have prompted that decision to stay home as things got Grey (Matter). What about Hank & Marie?

Leading men and all women in Hollywood had to have "Movie Star" looks; or else, you'll be a "character/supporting actor".

My recollection is Skylar quit working for Beneke to avoid the fumes at the steel fabrication facility.  

Hank and Marie fall even deeper into the "sexist stereotype", imo.  Marie was always talking about how Hank could advance himself so she could get that nice house in the suburbs around Washington DC.  I don't recall hearing her talk about going to medical school.  

[Eulipian 5k]

30 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Lots of leading men on TV are more character-types or at least have flaws that make them less than perfect vs. their prettier wife.

Comedy and it's need of a malleable faced comedian for reaction and spit takes: Fred & Wilma; Herman & Lily Munster, Lucy and Ricky Ricardo, Ralph & Alice Kramden did a lot of that in the 1950s & 60s. Even Cranston started on a sitcom.

[sistermagpie]

4 minutes ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Comedy and it's need of a malleable faced comedian for reaction and spit takes: Fred & Wilma; Herman & Lily Munster, Lucy and Ricky Ricardo, Ralph & Alice Kramden did a lot of that in the 1950s & 60s. Even Cranston started on a sitcom.

True, though even there the assumption is that it needs a malleable faced male comedian while the women are more traditionally pretty, even if she's de-glammed. (The real exception being I Love Lucy where she was the bigger clown and Desi Arnaz was quite handsome...meanwhile Ethel was for some reason married to Fred.)

But I think modern cable dramas explicitly go for interesting-looking people with expressive faces as well, so it's not even unusual that we'd be seeing Bob Odenkirk naked. One thing I really like about it, btw, is how the really good-looking people get treated as such within their own universe. In the past you'd often have these worlds populated by blandly beautiful people as if that was just normal.

That discussions seems particularly fitting for this episode here Jimmy and Kim were such a couple, even if they're flawed. I can't imagine a show in the 80s casting those two actors to play their central romantic couple, but in this universe they fit right in. I especially like how Kim's default expression is so...what's the word? It's a lot more aggressive than you often saw on lead actresses in the past and made her speech to Lalo all the more natural.

[gallimaufry]

I agree that the age gaps in BB are more obvious examples of this trope but I think the Jimmy/Kim gap is just a function of the show being a prequel.  If you assume that Saul in S2 of BB was Bob Odenkirk's age then (46) then Jimmy should be about 40 in BCS Season 1.  In BCS S1 Rhea Seehorn was 41.  I know age and looks at different things but I don't think we're meant to see it as an age gap and I think this is just an extension of "the El Camino problem" that even the greatest actors can't de-age themselves.  Ironically, the one person in the series who looks substantially younger than her actual age is Rhea Seehorn who could easily pass for 15 years younger than she is and so, next to Bob Odenkirk who is actually 15 years older than his character and struggling to sell that, there's a pronounced difference.

Nevertheless, I do think the foundations of their relationship are well-laid.

Jimmy and Kim formed the roots of their relationship in the mail room.  The fact that he was bootstrapping his way from near-prison must have made her feel more of a kinship with him on her way up than with nice-but-dull wholesome plodders we've seen like Omar and Ernesto.  She goes to huge lengths to hide her past and even where she's from but she doesn't need to do that with Jimmy because Jimmy's past is plenty checkered already.  She's clearly not very social whereas Jimmy is magnetic enough to bring even Chuck out of his shell in 410.  Even with Jimmy, while they clearly had some kind of relationship prior, they didn't get together until S2 and then when she had a lot of tequila and had been in role as someone else.  And this was after knowing Jimmy just short of ten years according to the show's timeline (as per her meeting with Rich in 207). That's an incredibly long time to warm to someone.  We've never seen any other friends, she barely even addresses issues even with Jimmy... there's nothing here to suggest that, temperamentally, she would find it at all easy to form a relationship whereas for Jimmy he just needs to believe he's Kevin Costner and the universe provides! 

Now of course it's objectively true that Kim should be able to do much better than Jimmy but the fact that she doesn't is a huge part of her hamartia.  Just like Jimmy, just like Mike, just like Gus, she can't let go of the past and move on.  She's trying to fix something that cannot be fixed.

[Ed-]

1 minute ago, gallimaufry said:

She goes to huge lengths to hide her past and even where she's from but she doesn't need to do that with Jimmy because Jimmy's past is plenty checkered already. 

Now I want a cold opening of S05 E10 revealing Kim's father was a mafia boss. 🙂

[Eulipian 5k]

22 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

(The real exception being I Love Lucy where she was the bigger clown and Desi Arnaz was quite handsome...meanwhile Ethel was for some reason married to Fred.)

Even though Lucy was once an "it" girl in Hollywood. Angela Langsbury carried her dramatic show in the 80's but rarely had a romantic partner. In the 80's you were either from big-shouldered Dallas/Dynasty or a Charlies Angels big-haired looker as a woman on TV. Egad.

[Eulipian 5k]

35 minutes ago, gallimaufry said:

hamartia

Boys & girls : You COVID-19 home school word for the day:

ha·mar·ti·a /ˌhämärˈtēə/ : a fatal flaw leading to the downfall of a tragic hero or heroine.

Thx, @gallimaufry!

[qtpye]

3 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Although, recently,  Bob Odenkirk is showing his age, when BCS started I thought he and Kim were both solid 8's and had no trouble believing they were an item.  He kind of did look like a young Paul Newman, and while Kim is very good looking she's no, well, Skylar.  While I hated the character, I thought Anne Gunn was truly beautiful.

I agree and it changes all the time.  The wife might gain baby weight or the man might get a recliner belly while the other one stays trim.  There's no telling when poor health might advance the aging process in one or the other.  

 

2 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

I think Walt and Skylar are more understandable than Jimmy and Kim.  Walt was 10 years older than Skylar.  In the househunting flashback, Walt was working at Los Alamos Lab and had significant earning potential.  Even if we presume Skylar had the smarts to run her own accounting firm, she made life choices that resulted in her being a stay-at-home mom at around 23. 

 

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

 

Lots of leading men on TV are more character-types or at least have flaws that make them less than perfect vs. their prettier wife. That's practically a running joke on sitcoms. But in general one the of great things about cable dramas is how they often reject that idea so completely. Tony Soprano is an obvious example.

Bob Odenkirk would I think be considered a character actor in terms of looks even at his peak. Character actors don't have to be homely.

 

1 hour ago, PeterPirate said:

My recollection is Skylar quit working for Beneke to avoid the fumes at the steel fabrication facility.  

Hank and Marie fall even deeper into the "sexist stereotype", imo.  Marie was always talking about how Hank could advance himself so she could get that nice house in the suburbs around Washington DC.  I don't recall hearing her talk about going to medical school.  

 

50 minutes ago, gallimaufry said:

I agree that the age gaps in BB are more obvious examples of this trope but I think the Jimmy/Kim gap is just a function of the show being a prequel.  If you assume that Saul in S2 of BB was Bob Odenkirk's age then (46) then Jimmy should be about 40 in BCS Season 1.  In BCS S1 Rhea Seehorn was 41.  I know age and looks at different things but I don't think we're meant to see it as an age gap and I think this is just an extension of "the El Camino problem" that even the greatest actors can't de-age themselves.  Ironically, the one person in the series who looks substantially younger than her actual age is Rhea Seehorn who could easily pass for 15 years younger than she is and so, next to Bob Odenkirk who is actually 15 years older than his character and struggling to sell that, there's a pronounced difference.

Nevertheless, I do think the foundations of their relationship are well-laid.

Jimmy and Kim formed the roots of their relationship in the mail room.  The fact that he was bootstrapping his way from near-prison must have made her feel more of a kinship with him on her way up than with nice-but-dull wholesome plodders we've seen like Omar and Ernesto.  She goes to huge lengths to hide her past and even where she's from but she doesn't need to do that with Jimmy because Jimmy's past is plenty checkered already.  She's clearly not very social whereas Jimmy is magnetic enough to bring even Chuck out of his shell in 410.  Even with Jimmy, while they clearly had some kind of relationship prior, they didn't get together until S2 and then when she had a lot of tequila and had been in role as someone else.  And this was after knowing Jimmy just short of ten years according to the show's timeline (as per her meeting with Rich in 207). That's an incredibly long time to warm to someone.  We've never seen any other friends, she barely even addresses issues even with Jimmy... there's nothing here to suggest that, temperamentally, she would find it at all easy to form a relationship whereas for Jimmy he just needs to believe he's Kevin Costner and the universe provides! 

Now of course it's objectively true that Kim should be able to do much better than Jimmy but the fact that she doesn't is a huge part of her hamartia.  Just like Jimmy, just like Mike, just like Gus, she can't let go of the past and move on.  She's trying to fix something that cannot be fixed.

I think my main problem with the "woman is always much better looking" trope on TV is that it perpetrates that looks is the main thing a female brings to the table and it also lets some female characters be woefully underwritten.

This is one of the reasons I am such a Gilligan fan. Almost all characters in his world are well written regardless of gender.

I still to this day remember the bank clerk who would not let her husband buy a boat...she was the one who opened all the safety deposit boxes for Mike's lawyer who liked to bake (not Saul) on BB.

For the record I actually find Bob O and Brian C to be attractive.

Skylar actually had quite a style transformation over the course of BB. In the first season she was a writer with long light brown hair and opted for a more comfortable bohemian look.

By the time she worked as a book keeper for Ted, she was a much more glamorous in hair and makeup, particularly when she sang Ted the Happy Birthday song.

I agree that in many way Kim and Jimmy do make a good couple regardless of their looks. I even commented that a charmer like Jimmy could have probably made a lot of money doing love scams.

Unfortunately, their bad choices might doom their relationship.

[khyber]

4 hours ago, qtpye said:

I just hate the trope on tv that guys always date out of their league looks wise. In real life, I know a good few couples where subjectively the man is better looking than his spouse. On tv this often leads to older men being paired with much younger women.

That was the beauty of Roseanne. The spouses were both fat, coarse & the same age.

[Eulipian 5k]

The "Lalo and the Fish Tank" scene was awesome in showing how Giselle & Jimmy saved Kim & Saul's a$$es. Jimmy kept the same straight face re- and re-telling 'the story"; he even relaxed as he added new parts. But when Giselle made her pitch, (raised her hand to cut off Jimmy) he didn't step on her pitch , he just went with it cold, unseen, un-prepped. He didn't try to shut her down, he let her pitch carry the "play".

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Eulipian 5k said:

The "Lalo and the Fish Tank" scene was awesome in showing how Giselle & Jimmy saved Kim & Saul's a$$es. Jimmy kept the same straight face re- and re-telling 'the story"; he even relaxed as he added new parts. But when Giselle made her pitch, (raised her hand to cut off Jimmy) he didn't step on her pitch , he just went with it cold, unseen, un-prepped. He didn't try to shut her down, he let her pitch carry the "play".

I hadn't thought of Jimmy and Kim's past cons in their roles of Viktor and Giselle as having turned out to be practice for just such a time as this, but yes, that is true --especially with Jimmy still in shock mode, it was crucial that he was able to rely on autopilot. 

[Bannon]

On 4/14/2020 at 12:54 PM, ShadowFacts said:

I get the immediate need, but when able, get that wreck out of there. It's still traceable to Jimmy via VIN number. If it's found later, and I assume there must be some kind of patrolling, he's then in the position of having to explain why a good citizen leaves his junk littering the desert. His junk with bullet holes.

All Saul has to do is report the car stolen.

[Clanstarling]

18 minutes ago, Bannon said:

All Saul has to do is report the car stolen.

Which would involve the police. Not optimal.

[nuraman00]

19 hours ago, preeya said:

There is no way in hell that they would accept $7mil in cash without calling in the Feds. There would be a gazillion questions asked and I'm certain Lalo would not just walk out of custody. All cash transaction over $9,999. are supposed to be reported.

I agree.

 

Disappointed then that the show ignored this.

[BC4ME]

One thing that struck me even during the scene was it would've been pretty difficult for one person to push that car over the cliff. So, how were they going to spin that part? Bullet holes aside, unless Lalo believed Kim's story, it was clear there were more people involved.

I once read that children of alcoholics (or I suppose drug users also) were very secretive because their family usually hid things from the world. So they are use to projecting a fake persona to the outside world and having to cover up for loved ones. Her life with Jimmy is all Kim knows. She's comfortable with the life she knows. And for however messed up it is, they love each other.

Edited April 15, 2020 by BC4ME

[Penman61]

2 hours ago, qtpye said:

This is one of the reasons I am such a Gilligan fan. Almost all characters in his world are well written regardless of gender.

It's 100% my own fault, but for a good two minutes, I was all "You know, come to think of it, Mary Ann actually had a lot of layers. And I think Lovey showed a Marxist twinge or two, while Ginger was way more than just a sex goddess bimbo..."

Wrong Gilligan...carry on, everyone.

[nuraman00]

21 hours ago, SoMuchTV said:

 

They touched on both these topics in the Insider podcast, if you’re interested in that kind of thing. 

Where can I find that?

 

I hope they mention the specific scenes, so it's easier to find.

[qtpye]

3 minutes ago, Penman61 said:

It's 100% my own fault, but for a good two minutes, I was all "You know, come to think of it, Mary Ann actually had a lot of layers. And I think Lovey showed a Marxist twinge or two, while Ginger was way more than just a sex goddess bimbo..."

Wrong Gilligan...carry on, everyone.

I can't even imagine how much Vince G got teased growing up with that last name...no wonder he is such an expert in the art of TV writing.😀

Edited April 15, 2020 by qtpye

[nuraman00]

7 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

They did meet each other working in the mailroom.  HHM clearly saw something in her because the firm at some point picked up her tuition to law school and she advanced from there. After Kim leaves HHM, she makes a point of trying to pay Howard back but he refuses her check.

I figured Kim had already started law school, and HHM decided to pick it up part way.

 

Does anyone get a scholarship / tuition paid for, before they start law school, while working in a mail room?

 

I guess we don't know what her major or grades were beforehand.  They might have been good.

[SoMuchTV]

50 minutes ago, nuraman00 said:

Where can I find that?

 

I hope they mention the specific scenes, so it's easier to find.

I subscribed through the basic podcast app on my iPhone. If you listen to other podcasts at all, you should be able to find it on whatever you use, searching on “better call Saul insider”.  There are also a ton of other fan podcasts, but this one is literally by the “insiders”

if you’re asking if there are scenes within the podcast so you can skip to what you want, unfortunately, no, but I usually enjoy listening to the whole thing. 

[luckylou]

On 4/13/2020 at 9:53 PM, ahmerali said:

Yeah, but given that Jimmy concocted a story in the car, with Mike, Victor, and Tyrus, this is a ridiculous loose end for them to leave, and especially for Fring to leave left undone. If Jimmy's story is that the car died or ran out of gas, why is it in the ditch? They could have at least made a story about how it ended up in the ditch....

Well, Kim’s story worked pretty well and was not all that far fetched to those of us who live in the mountain west. It is perfectly true that for years signs were full of bullets holes and especially in areas near reservations there are abandoned old cars...like the Esteem.

[Bannon]

4 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Which would involve the police. Not optimal.

I've had a  car stolen in that city. Believe me, car theft reports in Albuquerque are given as much attention as jaywalking. You don't even meet with a police officer. You call a secretary at the nearest substation, and have a 5 minute conversation.

4 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Which would involve the police. Not optimal.

I've had a  car stolen in that city. Believe me, car theft reports in Albuquerque are given as much attention as jaywalking. You don't even meet with a police officer. You call a secretary at the nearest substation, and have a 5 minute conversation.

[Ailianna]

On 4/13/2020 at 10:46 PM, Lonesome Rhodes said:

The shock value of the prosecutor mocking Saul for screwing up in court was quite something.  I loved every instance of every spoken word by that guy.  I also loved that G/G used this as a device to show us just how messed up Saul really was.  Boy, did that point get driven home.

I really hated this.  I could see Saul's rant to Howard happening in a courthouse, but not this.  Not only are courthouses more professional, since there is always someone watching who will tell the world if you do something like that, but prosecutors are held to a higher standard, not only by legal ethics, but by their elected official bosses.  A guy who would do that, not merely noting that he won a case he didn't think he would, but going on and on and following the opposing attorney and taunting him like that, is a guy who in real life would be looking for other work.

On 4/14/2020 at 12:15 AM, BradandJanet said:

Nacho is now our Jesse Pinkman, the young bad guy we want somehow to escape and find a better life. 

Nacho is the one I most care about (not to say the only one, just the primary one).  I worry for him, and I hold my breath when he's in danger, and I hope he makes it out.  I hadn't thought to compare him to Jesse, but I definitely see it in the emotional reaction, though I think he's a great deal smarter/more sensible than Jesse.

On 4/14/2020 at 12:17 AM, scenario said:

A car left in the desert in the middle of no where being just gone 24 hours later screams cover up to a suspicious mind. The better way would be to take an identical car with an obvious mechanical problem. Transfer over enough stuff from Saul's car to make it look like his and leave it there. But if they were going to do that Mike made a mistake in pushing it off the road. 

An old yellow Esteem with a red door?  I think that would be a challenge to duplicate with time.  In a hurry?  Impossible.

On 4/14/2020 at 12:32 AM, ahmerali said:

Just wish I could come up with a better way of dealing with the car....I'm sure there's something, I just can't come up with it.

I think this is also something those who think Mike is perfect should note.  Maybe he couldn't either.

On 4/14/2020 at 1:57 AM, TVFan17 said:

I thought for sure Lalo was going to shoot the aquarium or knock it off the counter to kill the fish because he was angry at Saul and Kim, which would have annoyed me because I am not on board with killing pets of any sort!

I wasn't worried about the aquarium being knocked over at least.  That looks like a 20 gallon to me, and it would be far too heavy to be knocked over.  The things are a pain to move even without all the water.  Every gallon of water is approximately 8.34 pounds.

On 4/14/2020 at 9:16 AM, Bannon said:

Mando is really great at portraying a man in a bottomless pit of existential, stone-faced, despair, while having very few lines to work with. Man, this show is sad, and it is kind of amazing it is so enjoyable.

He is amazing.  I liked him in Orphan Black, but I have really come to love and admire his performance in BCS.

On 4/14/2020 at 1:04 PM, Adiba said:

Yes, but when the thugs/gang members' buddies (or coworkers, if you will) heard they were shot in the desert, I figured that might have generated some talk --and in that "universe", perhaps gotten back to the Salamanca's camp, eventually.

I agree that it is unlikely--but could have been a possibility, imo.

Would the friends of the dead guys (NOT the dead guys themselves) even know that they went out to the desert?  And since Gus had everything cleaned up, they might disappear, or they might be located to a drug house, or anything.  Partially burned remains showing a meth lab explosion.  Lots of things to take the deaths and move them out of the desert for the gossip mongers.

On 4/14/2020 at 1:12 PM, scenario said:

So a group of thugs go off on a job and just disappear one day. If I'm working for the mob, I'm not asking too many questions or talking about it much. People who show too much curiosity don't live that long. 

Exactly.

On 4/14/2020 at 7:00 PM, ahmerali said:

My bigger worry was that the aquarium would maybe reflect the light from Jimmy's cell phone, deliberately left running so Mike could hear what was going on. That would have negated any rhetoric from Kim, for sure.

We saw the phone's light turn off while Saul was walking toward the door before Lalo came in.  And even my smart phone will go dark if it's not doing anything screenwise for a minute or so.

On 4/14/2020 at 7:14 PM, JudyObscure said:

One thing that bothered me; I grew up watching "lost in the desert" scenes in TV shows, movies, and cartoons (even Bugs Bunny took a wrong turn at Albuquerque) and  the  big moment of relief was always when they came over a ridge and saw civilization.  So I was disappointed when Mike and Saul's big moment was when they got cell reception.  I know Kim was worried, but after 36 hours one more didn't seem as important to me as them finding that truck stop.  What good did it really do to talk to Kim if they still weren't sure where they were or when they would be able to get water and be safe?  Probably only Chuck would understand my irritation over this.

I figured that not only did he call Kim, but it looked like Mike was getting out his phone too--so he could call Gus and make arrangements for their ride that much sooner.  It was definitely not a CAB that picked them up.  Yes, a cab dropped him off, but not from that truck stop.

11 hours ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Also: Doesn't Pro Bono refer to the cases an otherwise employed lawyer takes as charity? That is, you can't live off pro bono because there is no pay.

Usually that means one of two things--civil work that private firms do to look like good guys and to write off on their taxes, or criminal (like Kim) in places where there isn't a salaried public defenders office or they are handling public defender conflicts, and they get paid on a fixed rate for cases, usually so much per hour, with some variation on the type of work (trial versus regular court appearance, for example).  You can definitely live on it if you're connected to the assignment source (so you get cases) and not a spendthrift. More often though, that is a supplement to a regular paid criminal/family court practice.

[nuraman00]

On 4/14/2020 at 4:42 PM, SoMuchTV said:

 

They touched on both these topics in the Insider podcast, if you’re interested in that kind of thing. 

Thanks.

 

I'm listening to the podcast.

 

Where were the unpeeled oranges in the previous episode?  I went through 5x08 on the DVR, and can't find them.

[scenario]

Mike is only perfect when he has time to plan things in advance. If he knew two weeks in advance that he might have to have a replacement car for Saul's car he could have done it. Find an old yellow Esteem and paint the door. It doesn't have to be perfect. Just good enough for a quick look. 

Mikes genius is planning ahead. He took his gun. He slipped up because he didn't expect three cars full of people coming. It's a trade off. The thing I blame both him and Saul for is not carrying a couple of gallons of water with them. I traveled through the desert in my RV and always had lots of water handy. I remember traveling through the painted desert national park. We stopped at a scenic spot and talked to a woman and her baby. She was waiting for her husband and older kids to come back from a hike. She had taken one bottle of water with her and it had run out long before. We refilled the bottle for her and gave her a half gallon milk jug we had filled with water because we knew we were going to be in the desert.  

The more people involved the more difficult it is to keep it secret. Saul almost got killed because they used a drop site that everyone in the other gang knew about and way too many people saw the cousins walk out with bags full of money. 

I think that Mike messed up because he didn't have a chance to plan. He was called late at night, grabbed his gun and got to the drop site before anyone else did. 

[MrWhyt]

On 4/14/2020 at 7:56 PM, preeya said:

There is no way in hell that they would accept $7mil in cash without calling in the Feds. There would be a gazillion questions asked and I'm certain Lalo would not just walk out of custody. All cash transaction over $9,999. are supposed to be reported.

What legal justification would they have to continue to hold Lalo once his bail conditions were met? Yes the 7 million in cash is obviously shady but until they can prove it's illegal they have to take it.

[scenario]

19 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

What legal justification would they have to continue to hold Lalo once his bail conditions were met? Yes the 7 million in cash is obviously shady but until they can prove it's illegal they have to take it.

The judge did specify 7 million in cash. So they brought 7 million in cash. I wouldn't be surprised but I could see a scene like this.

"Cash bail is set for $20,000."

"Do you accept credit cards?"

"Cash or cashiers check."

Guy gets on his phone. An hour later the lawyer shows up with $20,000 cash. 

"I'm sorry we can't accept cash." 

"The judge specifically told us cash."

"What the hell is a cash bail if they don't accept cash?"

 What would probably happen is they'd call the Feds. Then delay for a while. Then they'd let him go and the Fed's would arrest him on something else like suspicion of tax evasion before he even left the building. They could hold him for 48 hours. Once they found out that the name was fake, they could find something else to hold him on. 

[gallimaufry]

Couple more thoughts having watched it through again.

I struggle to think that the $7m plot won't have consequences even though the fact that Lalo was (1) released and (2) made it to the border suggests he isn't being tailed.  The show paid off Fred's death and they had another ADA speak to Jimmy.  Between his public blow-up at the courthouse, his reputation with the DA's office for selling drop-phones to crooks (as per 408) and now this, I imagine a lot of eyes are going to be on Jimmy, especially after his client slips bail.

Jimmy's really interesting in this though for two scenes.

At the end, he repeats the "bad choice road" speech to Kim.  This is at least the second time he's repeated something that someone else has told him -- all his arguments to Chuck for why he should go into elder law are basically Kim's.  Now he's parroting Mike's speech to Kim.  This is quite normal but rarely do you see it on television and I think it says a lot about how easily-swayed Jimmy is.  He's constantly trying to be other people and we've seen him echo Kim, Howard (by dressing himself in Hamlindigo blue no less!), Chuck (by trying to become a lawyer) and now Mike. 

Also I'm fascinated by the exchange where Kim says "no judgments" and Jimmy repeats it almost aggressively.  For one thing, Kim is positioned as really the polar opposite to Chuck in every way -- where he would do nothing but judge, she does nothing to intercede.  She is completely enabling his behaviour. 

But Jimmy's reaction is interesting -- he's clearly angered by it.  Is it because it reminds him of Chuck and Chuck's judgments and he's naturally assuming that Kim would take that role?  Or is it that he thinks Kim should stand in judgment over him because he is guilty, he knows he's guilty and he doesn't see how she could fail to condemn him for what he's done?  Is it that he actually needs her to be more of a Chuck than a Kim; after all, despite how his relationship with Chuck ended, Chuck kept Jimmy from veering too far off for a long time because Jimmy knew that every trick would be pounced on by Chuck.

It really feels like if someone Jimmy admired had stepped in to guide him at an earlier point, a middle road between Chuck's all-out judgment and Kim's all-out permissiveness, he would never have been on the bad choice road.

[Bryce Lynch]

8 hours ago, scenario said:

The judge did specify 7 million in cash. So they brought 7 million in cash. I wouldn't be surprised but I could see a scene like this.

"Cash bail is set for $20,000."

"Do you accept credit cards?"

"Cash or cashiers check."

Guy gets on his phone. An hour later the lawyer shows up with $20,000 cash. 

"I'm sorry we can't accept cash." 

"The judge specifically told us cash."

"What the hell is a cash bail if they don't accept cash?"

 What would probably happen is they'd call the Feds. Then delay for a while. Then they'd let him go and the Fed's would arrest him on something else like suspicion of tax evasion before he even left the building. They could hold him for 48 hours. Once they found out that the name was fake, they could find something else to hold him on. 

I have no experience with bail, but I assume that most large bail payments are made by check, bank check, or wire transfer.

"Cash" doesn't mean paper money.  It means that the defendant needs to actually put up the full $7 million, as opposed to paying a small percentage of it (often 10%) as a non-refundable fee to a bail bondsman for a bail bond.

The government would definitely investigate the origin of the cash, and if Mr. De Guzman couldn't provide an explanation, the government would probably seize it through a civil asset forfeiture 

I assume, that the idea on the show is that by the time the government did this, and his bail was revoked, "Mr. De Guzman" would be long gone, and in Mexico, under a different Identity, out of reach of the NM authorities.

 

 

[Clanstarling]

10 hours ago, Ailianna said:

I really hated this.  I could see Saul's rant to Howard happening in a courthouse, but not this.  Not only are courthouses more professional, since there is always someone watching who will tell the world if you do something like that, but prosecutors are held to a higher standard, not only by legal ethics, but by their elected official bosses.  A guy who would do that, not merely noting that he won a case he didn't think he would, but going on and on and following the opposing attorney and taunting him like that, is a guy who in real life would be looking for other work.

I saw it a bit differently. The ADA has been Jimmy's frenemy for the entire series, and they banter back and forth a lot. What this highlights, for me, is that the ADA is still seeing Saul as Jimmy. But we all know that Jimmy is no longer that person. So it's a marker of how things have changed - how Jimmy has changed.

56 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I have no experience with bail, but I assume that most large bail payments are made by check, bank check, or wire transfer.

"Cash" doesn't mean paper money.  It means that the defendant needs to actually put up the full $7 million, as opposed to paying a small percentage of it (often 10%) as a non-refundable fee to a bail bondsman for a bail bond.

The government would definitely investigate the origin of the cash, and if Mr. De Guzman couldn't provide an explanation, the government would probably seize it through a civil asset forfeiture 

I assume, that the idea on the show is that by the time the government did this, and his bail was revoked, "Mr. De Guzman" would be long gone, and in Mexico, under a different Identity, out of reach of the NM authorities.

That would be the normal way, yes. But "cash" does also mean paper money, so they  would have to accept it. But absolutely they'd be contacting the Feds. Not that they'll find Lalo. They can still seize it, but they'd be seizing it from the local government.

[SailorGirl]

4 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I have no experience with bail, but I assume that most large bail payments are made by check, bank check, or wire transfer.

"Cash" doesn't mean paper money.  It means that the defendant needs to actually put up the full $7 million, as opposed to paying a small percentage of it (often 10%) as a non-refundable fee to a bail bondsman for a bail bond.

The government would definitely investigate the origin of the cash, and if Mr. De Guzman couldn't provide an explanation, the government would probably seize it through a civil asset forfeiture 

I assume, that the idea on the show is that by the time the government did this, and his bail was revoked, "Mr. De Guzman" would be long gone, and in Mexico, under a different Identity, out of reach of the NM authorities.

 

 

I imagine that a $7M paid cash bail, regardless of whether its physical bills or check, bank check, or wire transfer, will raise eyebrows, so I think doing it with physical bills was a just a bonus middle finger to the courts by Lalo. He knew they'd have to count it all. 

I'm rewatching Breaking Bad and last night was season 2's "Better Call Saul." I remembered that, when Jesse and Walt took Saul to the desert, he asked if Lalo sent them and tried to blame whatever he thought he was being kidnapped for on Nacho/Ignacio, but what got completely overlooked (I don't recall anyone on the BCS forums mentioning this), was Saul repeatedly saying "amigo de cartel!" several times before the Nacho and Lalo references. The consistencies -- down to the tiniest detail like this --that they carry through and across series(!) time and again are just one more reason in the long list of why both of these shows are masterpieces. 

 

Edited April 16, 2020 by SailorGirl

[ahmerali]

38 minutes ago, SailorGirl said:

I imagine that a $7M paid cash bail, regardless of whether its physical bills or check, bank check, or wire transfer, will raise eyebrows, so I think doing it with physical bills was a just a bonus middle finger to the courts by Lalo. He knew they'd have to count it all.
 

I really don't think Lalo cared about that, to him if someone wants 7 million, well fine, I'll just get it from our fat stacks that we have sitting in Mexico. He just wants his freedom to go back. If the feds seize it, big fat hairy deal. They'll make it back in a month.

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

That would be the normal way, yes. But "cash" does also mean paper money, so they  would have to accept it.

Yup. This note is legal tender for all debts, public and private. You can't not accept cash.

[NYCFree]

“Pro bono” is short for “pro bono publico” and basically means for the good of the public. It is specifically used for lawyers who take cases without any expectation of payment. They are usually lawyers who make decent money and take on a case or two pro bono, as a form of charity. Kim is unusual in that her arrangement with S&C clearly lets her spend the majority of time on pro bono work because she brought in the cash cow of Mesa Verde. S&C is paying her partner’s salary on the basis of the Mesa Verde business.

Public defenders get paid by the local government. They can either be full time public defenders on a regular salary, or private attorneys who agree to get put on a rotating panel of attorneys willing to take on cases for indigent defendants and get paid (usually a very small amount) from the government. At the beginning of the series, Jimmy was one of these attorneys. He argued with a clerk because he represented three defendants in one trial and expected three payments, he got one because he did one trial.

[ShadowFacts]

I don't think Gus' over the top response to Mike about Nacho has been touched on much here.  I can't figure out if his ire was about how much he despises Nacho's disloyalty or how much he does not want Mike making suggestions on how to handle his people, or both.  He was really tense, though.  More than usual, and tense is kind of his middle name, but he usually keeps a lid on it.  Or was he making a show to Mike of 'don't even think of leaving this job?'  Probably all of the above, but he really got steamed.  

[shapeshifter]

3 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I assume, that the idea on the show is that by the time the government did this, and his bail was revoked, "Mr. De Guzman" would be long gone, and in Mexico, under a different Identity, out of reach of the NM authorities.

And I assume that with the ticking clock of how long it might take the Feds to figure out that Mr. De Guzman is Lalo and to find Lalo that Lalo was laser-focused on getting out of Dodge (the U.S.) but also aware that if Saul/Jimmy wound up leaving behind his car full of bullet holes and walking out of the desert drinking pee, that Lalo couldn't just assume that his Plan A to make it over the border was in tact. 
I think this is the real reason he walked away from Kim after she gave him some sound advice.