S01.E09: Zoey’s Extraordinary Silence

[anniebird]

I have two daughters-in-law whom I love dearly but if they ever tried to tell me about their sex life with my son I'd run away screaming.

[Notwisconsin]

1 hour ago, HighHopes said:

So often deaf or blind people are left out of things that we take for granted. To have a song done entirely in ASL that wasn't subtitled worked for me. We are "left out" for a few minutes, but that is their entire life. This was a moment for the daughter, and it stayed a moment for her. Having subtitles (or voices even) would have taken away from that, especially with the song choice.

 I wanted to remind y'all of the incredible "wokenes" of the show, that on rare occasions is actually offensive. IN this case the caretaker's deaf daughter mentions all those times he tried to "cure" her, including cochlear implants. Mentioning these things, which actually cure deafness (it's an artificial ear that's implanted in the brain), as just another quack remedy that doesn't work is an affront to those hundreds of thousands of formerly deaf people who's lives have been made immensely better.

Many proponents of "deaf culture" find cochlear implants "genocidal" as being able to hear would leave the tribe and not use ASL and be "purer."

It was otherwise an interesting episode.

Edited April 6, 2020 by Notwisconsin

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, Mermaid Under said:

I remember Sounds of Silence was being played on the radio - it is plural not singular.   That duet was gorgeous.  Since I am so old, I obviously didn't recognize Fight Song but I knew I would find it here.  I don't know the lyrics or story behind the song, and although I understand the directorial reason for making it a wordless sign dance, and I could get the general gist of what the daughter was communicating, I did feel like I was left out for few minutes there.

I have the same background and so was also able to experience the feeling of being left out —as the deaf often are in situations where hearing is required. That number was sort of a mirror image experience, in that the more familiar a non-ASL hearing viewer was with the song, the less they could experience the left-outedness.

—if that makes sense?

[Guest]

33 minutes ago, Notwisconsin said:

I wanted to remind y'all of the incredible "wokenes" of the show, that on rare occasions is actually offensive. IN this case the caretaker's deaf daughter mentions all those times he tried to "cure" her, including cochlear implants. Mentioning these things, which actually cure deafness (it's an artificial ear that's implanted in the brain), as just another quack remedy that doesn't work is an affront to those hundreds of thousands of formerly deaf people who's lives have been made immensely better.

I didn’t think that cochlear implants were presented as quack remedies. It was mentioned along with hearing aids and speech therapy. I thought she said that all the possible treatments didn’t work for her. 

[HighHopes]

56 minutes ago, Notwisconsin said:

 I wanted to remind y'all of the incredible "wokenes" of the show, that on rare occasions is actually offensive. IN this case the caretaker's deaf daughter mentions all those times he tried to "cure" her, including cochlear implants. Mentioning these things, which actually cure deafness (it's an artificial ear that's implanted in the brain), as just another quack remedy that doesn't work is an affront to those hundreds of thousands of formerly deaf people who's lives have been made immensely better.

Many proponents of "deaf culture" find cochlear implants "genocidal" as being able to hear would leave the tribe and not use ASL and be "purer."

It was otherwise an interesting episode.

As a partially blind person, I do not think there is a "need" to "cure" blindness or deafness. I recently learned about the disagreements regarding cochlear implants within the deaf community, and I find it interesting and understandable. Yes, people can choose to get the necessary surgeries that would "fix" the disability but why do we have to fix something that is not considered normal? Yes, they work for thousands of people and those people can choose to receive that if they wish, but there is nothing wrong with not receiving it either. There is nothing wrong with not being an abled bodied individual, not being considered the norm should not be something that is thought of in need of "fixing" or "curing". 
 

Just now, Dani said:

I didn’t think that cochlear implants were presented as quack remedies. It was mentioned along with hearing aids and speech therapy. I thought she said that all the possible treatments didn’t work for her. 

I took it this way too, and much like how they didn't work for her, lasek surgery won't work to "cure" my blindness. 

 

Edited April 7, 2020 by HighHopes

[Clanstarling]

4 hours ago, HighHopes said:

I actually think this is a good thing, sorry. So often deaf or blind people are left out of things that we take for granted. To have a song done entirely in ASL that wasn't subtitled worked for me. We are "left out" for a few minutes, but that is their entire life. This was a moment for the daughter, and it stayed a moment for her. Having subtitles (or voices even) would have taken away from that, especially with the song choice.

Excellent point.

3 hours ago, springbarb said:

I don't think we're supposed to see Simon as the Absolute Worst; I think the show has been fairly nuanced about him. We aren't supposed to approve of what he's doing, but I know I can at least see how everything happened. It's not good, but it's human.

I agree.

[HappyBerry]

This shows frustrates me with annoying clichéd storylines, characters I know I'm supposed to root for but can't (I assume I'm supposed to like Max), and I wonder why I watch. 

But then they develop Tobin, make Howie an interesting character, and do things like the deaf student performance and I get sucked in all the same. Plus Mo dropping truth bombs in amazing clothing. 

And, I am glad that David and Emily are learning that they need to talk to each other, maybe something to learn before marriage and a baby. But, better late than never. 

Edited April 7, 2020 by HappyBerry

[Goldmoon]

I teared up twice at Sounds of Silence and a fight Song. That ASL performance was amazing. And Max acts like that entitled "Nice Guy" that thinks he's being friend-zoned if a woman doesn't want to fall upon his penis. I hate the whole concept of "friend-zone."

Edited April 7, 2020 by Goldmoon

[auntiemel]

3 hours ago, Notwisconsin said:

Many proponents of "deaf culture" find cochlear implants "genocidal" as being able to hear would leave the tribe and not use ASL and be "purer."

You don't need to put the words deaf culture in quotation marks as if it's a phrase coined to describe something ridiculous that doesn't really exist. 🤨 Deaf culture is quite real, not to mention nuanced. There is varied opinion among deaf people about cochlear implants, among many other issues. It's not a monolith. And it's certainly nothing that needs to be surrounded by "fake thing" quotes.

[Mockingbird]

Show, you had frickin’ Renée Elise Goldsberry up your sleeve this whole time and chose to make up listen to Lauren Graham’s multiple musical numbers?? Her character is odd, but she’s going to kill whatever musical number they give her. 
 

The Sound of Silence and Fight Song were beautiful. I was sort of grimacing at the beginning of Fight Song, after being burned by too many years of “Archie dancing on Glee” or the equivalent, but that was lovely.  

[ElectricBoogaloo]

18 hours ago, Quickbeam said:

As an interpreter myself, I am always on edge as to how Deaf actors will be used. This was done really well. I was so pleased that they didn’t voice over the song. And the dancers were obviously native signers.

The show worked with Deaf West artistic director David Kurs and cast ten Deaf dancers for Fight Song.

13 hours ago, Captain Asshat said:

I was so happy they didn't subtitle "Fight Song." No, I don't know all the lyrics, but it didn't matter. I know the song, and the actors signed and danced it so well, that the emotion got through.

 

9 hours ago, HighHopes said:

I actually think this is a good thing, sorry. So often deaf or blind people are left out of things that we take for granted. To have a song done entirely in ASL that wasn't subtitled worked for me. We are "left out" for a few minutes, but that is their entire life. This was a moment for the daughter, and it stayed a moment for her. Having subtitles (or voices even) would have taken away from that, especially with the song choice.

 

7 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I have the same background and so was also able to experience the feeling of being left out —as the deaf often are in situations where hearing is required. That number was sort of a mirror image experience, in that the more familiar a non-ASL hearing viewer was with the song, the less they could experience the left-outedness.

Both the show creator Austin Winsberg and the choreographer Mandy Moore talked about this episode in the interviews posted in the media thread. Some info about Fight Song:

Quote

Winsberg wanted all of the performers in the song to be deaf performers, and that there be no singing. There was an ASL interpreter on set to facilitate communication between Moore and the actors. “It was a tall order because I wanted the emotion and what they were conveying simply through the physicality of their movement and facial expressions,” says Winsberg. He then added, “It was probably one of the hardest numbers Mandy had to do all season.”

He admits that it would have been easier if there were hearing performers in the number, “but I wanted to give voice and representation to deaf people,” Winsberg says. “It was important to what the number and episode was trying to say, to showcase these people and to be as authentic as possible in the process.”

 

Quote

“I realized very quickly that I was going to need to do some preproduction on my end, not only to make the routine, but also just to learn ASL because people think that dance and ASL go very beautifully together. I think ASL is so fluid and kind of looks like dance of the hands and stuff,”  she said while acknowledging part of the difficulty was in making a clear translation of “Fight Song” into American Sign Language, but also learning there really was about a hundred different ways it could be translated. a very tricky assignment.

“And in that rehearsal process it was very telling. Holy smokes, everything I thought I knew I threw out as soon as I got in the room which was really beautiful, fun and scary, but very cool. And we worked for about three hours I think in that initial preproduction rehearsal, and it was trying not only to understand what signs we were going to do for what words, but also adding a bit of movement to it. So say you’re signing a certain word with your hands, but then you might stomp with your feet, or you might turn around 180 and turn the other direction. Funny enough, that can really take away from the beauty and the clarity of the ASL, so that communication and that understanding and that creation took a long time to figure out,” she said.

“I think each number honestly has their challenges. I will say that this is probably one of the most challenging things I’ve ever done because you’re going into a situation where you don’t have the tools, like part of the tools you need to build a house you don’t have, you know? I just wanted to respect the language because I just didn’t want to make some stupid dance that just made a mockery of this beautiful language, right? It was really hard tonally just to figure out what was right and to make sure that all these performers felt trusted and heard in a way that they could express how they feel about something, because they’re all really incredible performers and actors, you know? And so, it was really interesting to hear them, which is so weird to say hear, but to listen to them, and to the translators and debate what was the correct sign for a certain emotion or certain word.”

Moore is happy she was able to part of such a groundbreaking kind of performance on network television, a performance of a song but with no singing. From the beginning Winsberg was adamant that it would be done this way, without subtitles, even though Moore says some people may not get it, but that’s okay. “It’s very beautiful when you watch it and you feel it. You know I think you watch it and go like, wow, this is something I don’t really know anything about,” she says.

 

[Notwisconsin]

10 hours ago, Dani said:

I didn’t think that cochlear implants were presented as quack remedies. It was mentioned along with hearing aids and speech therapy. I thought she said that all the possible treatments didn’t work for her. 

it was mentioned in a way to show the superiority of ASL culture and that having hearing was bad. If she needed hearing aids and speech therapy, then she could have been able to hear and speak. No ASL was necessary.

When Marlee Matlin won that Oscar back in the '80s, she gave a wonderful speech in English. Then she caught hell from the Deaf activist community for not using ASL and a translator. It wasn't a case of "she couldn't" but she "shouldn't."

Quote

As a partially blind person, I do not think there is a "need" to "cure" blindness or deafness.

But your icon shows you wearing glasses. That's a partial cure for your condition. Imagine someone just like you who REFUSED to wear them because "it didn't work for them."  Or those kids in those charity commercials running jumping and playing using the latest prosthetics. is what's being done TO them bad? NO!!!!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

58 minutes ago, Notwisconsin said:

But your icon shows you wearing glasses. That's a partial cure for your condition. Imagine someone just like you who REFUSED to wear them because "it didn't work for them."

I'm 99% sure that's Felicity from Arrow in @HighHopes' profile pic.

[Clanstarling]

9 hours ago, Goldmoon said:

I teared up twice at Sounds of Silence and a fight Song. That ASL performance was amazing. And Max acts like that entitled "Nice Guy" that thinks he's being friend-zoned if a woman doesn't want to fall upon his penis. I hate the whole concept of "friend-zone."

I hate the concept of friend zone too, partly because men seem to think it only goes one way. But also, so someone isn't into you the way you're into them - that's life. Suck it up.

[HighHopes]

2 hours ago, Notwisconsin said:

 

But your icon shows you wearing glasses. That's a partial cure for your condition. Imagine someone just like you who REFUSED to wear them because "it didn't work for them."  Or those kids in those charity commercials running jumping and playing using the latest prosthetics. is what's being done TO them bad? NO!!!!

 

1 hour ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I'm 99% sure that's Felicity from Arrow in @HighHopes' profile pic.

@ElectricBoogaloo is right about my icon. 
 

But since you mentioned it. I do correct my vision with contacts but only one eye as I’m legally blind in the other. I’m not saying it has to the one or the other — there will be blind people who want their vision corrected and those that don’t. Neither is wrong. Those within the community will have different opinions but that’s always going to happen. But the thing that is wrong is the idea that non-able bodied individuals are in need of being “cured” so that they are “normal”.
 

Abigail either didn’t want the cochlear implants or they didn’t work for her. But she seemed to get through life pretty well - she’s doing well in school, volunteering as travelling, and seems like an over all good person. Hearing is not necessary to life, but it has its benefits because we live like it is. 

Edited April 7, 2020 by HighHopes

[BonnieD]

Quote

I would love it if they back entirely off the love interests for a while.

This is the problem with shows introducing a triangle WAY too soon, which many seem to want to do within the first couple of episodes. It awkwardly forces something that could be depicted as developing slowly and naturally. Then of course, the characters must be pushed into acrobatic situations in order to keep the "which one" and "will they won't they" questions going. Word to all shows ever, STOP trying to unnaturally create drama and let realistic drama about anything other than romance unfold. Forced triangles makes you end up with a trio of foolish people whom no one cares about.

[Notwisconsin]

25 minutes ago, HighHopes said:

 

@ElectricBoogaloo is right about my icon. 
 

But since you mentioned it. I do correct my vision with contacts but only eye as I’m legally blind in one eye. I’m not saying it has to the one or the other — there will be blind people who want their vision corrected and those that don’t. Neither is wrong. Those within the community will have different opinions but that’s always going to happen. But the thing that is wrong is the idea that non-able bodied individuals are in need of being “cured” so that they are “normal”.
 

Abigail either didn’t want the cochlear implants or they didn’t work for her. But she seemed to get through life pretty well - she’s doing well in school, volunteering as travelling, and seems like an over all good person. Hearing is not necessary to life, but it has its benefits because we live like it is. 

AS to your icon, I didn't know that. But the idea that "non-able bodied individuals are in need of being 'cured"' is a bad one is is just plain wrong.  having prosthetics, such as contacts, is a good thing. People usually lead a more fulfilling lives with them. 

Take you for example: would your life be better or worse if you just threw away that contact lens? I doubt it.

I know that this is a fantasy show, and sometimes, in fantasy shows, they make the mistake of not logically adapting to the absurd fantasy element. but the idea of minimizing the problems of a deaf-mute going to a foreign country where most don't speak english to TEACH computer science, is political BS. Not good storytelling.

Edited April 7, 2020 by Notwisconsin

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Notwisconsin said:

it was mentioned in a way to show the superiority of ASL culture and that having hearing was bad. If she needed hearing aids and speech therapy, then she could have been able to hear and speak. No ASL was necessary.

Or she had a father who so desperately wanted to help her have a “normal” life that he kept taking her to therapies that she was not a good candidate for and was disappointed when they failed.  

I really can’t agree with your last statement. Hearing aids and speech therapy are wonderful interventions but they are not cures for many people. Being able to hear or speak does not take the place of ASL for many people with hearing loss. 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

21 hours ago, anniebird said:

I have two daughters-in-law whom I love dearly but if they ever tried to tell me about their sex life with my son I'd run away screaming.

Especially if they are sharing that son (you didn't write "sons".)

Edited April 7, 2020 by ItCouldBeWorse

[treasaigh]

So I've been watching and reading, and I totally agree with the group here the triangle isn't working for me.  However, I find myself surprised that Max seems to be taking the brunt of it over Simon.  Yes I'm generalizing, I know.  :-)

I get Max way more than I get Simon.  Simon is cheating.  Max is in love with is best friend.  He tells her.  Of course it doesn't go well, and he doesn't handle it perfectly.  But that's completely normal for people in their mid twenties.  The age I assume the characters are.  I don't get a good feeling for how much time passes in the show, but he seems to get over it fairly quickly, but almost as quickly she sings a song to him about how she loves him.  Then he sees her coming on to another guy.

Of course he's going to be upset. 

He just comes to terms with being friend-zoned, then she expresses her love for him, then she is seen coming on to another guy.  Who wouldn't feel confused with all that happening?

Frankly my sympathy is for the guy who was kept in the dark about Zoey's initial feelings (when she pushed him towards Amber), who finally thinks he's got a shot at the girl he loves, only to find out she's trying to get with another guy.  He gets a chance to move on (to floor six with Renee is a HUGE step up), checks in with her (his best friend for years), gets an answer, then moves decides to go with Renee.  A plan I totally support!  I don't see how that's a problem.

My sympathy is NOT with the cheater or the person who cheats with him.

I do not know why they went this route.  It's clear they want us to see Max and Simon as viable options and not think Zoey is a bad person. But I'm not completely buying it.  I like Zoey a lot until I think about her and Simon.  Then I get angry with her.  I think this was a mistake, and I do not look forward to the inevitable Zoey/Simon relationship that will eventually explode.  Overall, I really like this show and I worry that we won't get a season two and will have to wade through the Zoey/Simon relationship.

The show knows he's wrong (Mo dropped all kinds of truth on him), but they still want us to like him (Mo somehow gives him a pass).  I don't get that.

Also?  I think the casting of Skyler in a musical show is a clear indicator that Max is supposed to win.  :-)

[auntiemel]

5 hours ago, Notwisconsin said:

But the idea that "non-able bodied individuals are in need of being 'cured"' is a bad one is is just plain wrong. 

See, and I would have thought that it was the idea of looking at someone else's life and circumstances and telling them that all of their own opinions about themselves, and those of their community who share the same experiences, are invalid--and then substituting my uneducated judgement for theirs when it comes to THEIR OWN LIVES was what was just plain wrong. 🤔

Also, I would have thought that looking at a group of people that are fulfilled, productive, and proud of themselves and their culture and trying to convince them that they are somehow deficient because they aren't "normal" like me would also be the thing that was just plain wrong. 🤨

The episode illustrated this. It wasn't Abigail's deafness that was holding her back. It was her father's refusal to see her as a grown, competent woman--which she clearly was. It's a common problem for people with challenges. Just because someone loves you doesn't mean they're not somewhat ableist in their view of you. Those two things can coexist.

Everyone has challenges in life. It's not like things won't be harder for Abigail in Kenya than they would for a hearing person. Obviously. She will have to overcome obstacles that others wouldn't. But her point--and it's a good one--is that the people in the position to decide if those obstacles are worth overcoming are 1-her, 2-the program that accepted her, and 3-the foundation giving her the grant money. She's an adult. If all three of those deciding bodies are on board, it's not up to her father to step in and say, "You're not capable of this."

Adults of all ranges of capabilities and challenges try things all the time that either do or do not work out well. But we have the freedom to try them. That's the point.

And, circling back around to the original point, yes. The idea that people with physical challenges need to be cured IS bad. It's very bad. It says that there's a mark they should be hitting, and they aren't. That physical normalcy is the passing grade and they are somehow failing if they can't--or don't want to--reach it.

That is wrong. It is just plain wrong.

It's also, of course, wrong to vilify those who do choose to use aids or implements. On that one point we do agree.

Basically, everyone is born different. Some people have physical challenges, and for some of those challenges there is assistive technology available that they may or may not choose to avail themselves of, in the pursuit of living their version of the best possible life. And what they choose is no one's fucking business but their own.

[topanga]

On 4/5/2020 at 10:01 PM, Lady Calypso said:

Wow...this episode was really strong for multiple reasons...

...Simon...I do think we needed to hear his thoughts, but he's still an ass for being so wishy washy about his feelings for Zoey and Jessica. His reasoning also didn't make a whole lot of sense, as he basically told Mo that he was only still with Jessica because she was helping him through his grief...which is a terrible reason to stay with someone.

I'd say he's an ass for his passive-aggressiveness with Jessica and his cheating behavior with Zoey—such as going to Zoey’s apartment late at night and later kissing her, but his feelings are his feelings. Zoey was the one who initially approached him and asked him private questions about his life, creating instant intimacy. Wasn’t he almost suicidal in the pilot, and she talked him down from the metaphorical ledge? Or was it the other way around?

Anyway, their friendship was based on connecting about their dead or dying fathers, and it grew from there. And I know they’ve been inappropriately flirty at work with one another, but I can't tell if they’re even really compatible, relationship-wise. I also like that Simon acknowledges that his feelings for Zoey are wrong. So I like that so far the show hasn’t had him run straight from Jessica’s arms into Zoey’s. And we haven’t had the trope of strangers telling them they look like they ought to be a couple.

Oh, and our sound system plays “Happier” every day at work, but I never knew what the song was about until I heard Simon and Jessica’s slow, haunting version.

 

On 4/6/2020 at 1:13 PM, HighHopes said:

I'm glad Mo called Simon out on the emotional affair, because that's what it is/was.

Mo is the man (or the woman). I love every episode he’s part of. Which is why this one and “Zoey's Extraordinary Neighbor” are my favorites.

[BoogieBurns]

7 hours ago, topanga said:

Mo is the man (or the woman). I love every episode he’s part of. Which is why this one and “Zoey's Extraordinary Neighbor” are my favorites.

Not sure if this has been dug into elsewhere. But Mo is non-gender conforming who appears to use he/him pronouns. So I wouldn't suppose referring to Mo as a woman would be correct. It hasn't been spelled out for us, so I don't mean to sound lecture-y. More just talking through what we know about Mo. 

Mo has, by far, the best wardrobe on the show! And what a voice! I'm reminded of Tituss Burgess and am curious if he was in the running for this great role. 

[MVFrostsMyPie]

How many jobs does Mo have to be able to afford that apartment with all that decor? Even with Zoey being a coder, her living alone in that apartment of hers (with that clean adorable kitchen including a stove that looked too new) is not that realistic. Yeah I know, I know, this is a song where a person can hear other’s thoughts through song, it’s just frustrating living in the same area and knowing how far from reality these stupid kitschy residences of characters are. 🙄 

Spotted Kelly from TWD during Fight Song. Liked how they did that performance. Also chuckled at the deep breath and getting a nice whiff of pot. The pot aroma can actually be somewhat mask the smell of pee-soaked sidewalks if it’s pungent enough. I remember at my last job, a really naive coworker at work started complaining about a skunk’s spray stinking up our office through an open window and we had to point out to her there was a guy smoking a joint down below on the street. 

[Guest]

36 minutes ago, MVFrostsMyPie said:

How many jobs does Mo have to be able to afford that apartment with all that decor? Even with Zoey being a coder, her living alone in that apartment of hers (with that clean adorable kitchen including a stove that looked too new) is not that realistic. Yeah I know, I know, this is a song where a person can hear other’s thoughts through song, it’s just frustrating living in the same area and knowing how far from reality these stupid kitschy residences of characters are.

I think we’ve seen Mo doing at least 4 jobs: building manager, D.J., painter and fashion designer. 

[possibilities]

It's nice that Mandy Moore wanted to get the song right, but it would have made more sense to just hire a choreographer who was Deaf, or at least fluent in ASL, and knew what they were doing. Giving Moore credit when it's clear even from her own description of the process that she really didn't know what the hell she was doing and had to have a boatload of input and consultation to pull it off, to me makes it kind of a vanity thing for her and the "challenge" and the credit should probably have just gone to someone qualified for the job.

 

[meatball77]

Or at least have brought in an assistant choreographer who is deaf to work with Mandy.  Probably would have made the process easier.

[Guest]

On 4/6/2020 at 12:22 PM, shapeshifter said:

On 4/6/2020 at 9:31 AM, Dani said:

I really do not understand why the show will not let up on the love triangle. It’s not like there are not enough other plots to go around.

As a life long triangle hater, I feel what you're saying. But the simple answer (for me) is: This is a musical show, and most songs are love songs.

It’s not the existence of the love triangle that baffles me but that the pacing has been all wrong. They are just showing all the reasons why both relationships are a mistake and have stopped showing why Zoey would find either of them appealing. 

[topanga]

3 hours ago, BoogieBurns said:

Not sure if this has been dug into elsewhere. But Mo is non-gender conforming who appears to use he/him pronouns. So I wouldn't suppose referring to Mo as a woman would be correct. It hasn't been spelled out for us, so I don't mean to sound lecture-y. More just talking through what we know about Mo. 

Mo has, by far, the best wardrobe on the show! And what a voice! I'm reminded of Tituss Burgess and am curious if he was in the running for this great role. 

I hear you. But Mo has also been described as gender fluid and has referred to himself colloquially as girl and she queen. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

1 hour ago, possibilities said:

It's nice that Mandy Moore wanted to get the song right, but it would have made more sense to just hire a choreographer who was Deaf, or at least fluent in ASL, and knew what they were doing. Giving Moore credit when it's clear even from her own description of the process that she really didn't know what the hell she was doing and had to have a boatload of input and consultation to pull it off, to me makes it kind of a vanity thing for her and the "challenge" and the credit should probably have just gone to someone qualified for the job.

 

 

1 hour ago, meatball77 said:

Or at least have brought in an assistant choreographer who is deaf to work with Mandy.  Probably would have made the process easier.

If you read the original articles, they specifically say that Deaf West artistic director David Kurs worked  Mandy Moore "to create a musical number that uses both dance and sign language."

[Notwisconsin]

15 hours ago, auntiemel said:

And, circling back around to the original point, yes. The idea that people with physical challenges need to be cured IS bad. It's very bad. It says that there's a mark they should be hitting, and they aren't. That physical normalcy is the passing grade and they are somehow failing if they can't--or don't want to--reach it.

That is wrong. It is just plain wrong.

It's also, of course, wrong to vilify those who do choose to use aids or implements. On that one point we do agree.
 

But vilifying those who choose to use aids or implements is the whole point of the episode. The deaf daughter character WAS able to hear, for a while, that's what cochlear implants DO. She didn't WANT to hear, she didn't WANT to be able to speak to the 99% of the population who had functional ears and thus never learned to sign ASL. Hell, she chose to live in a specially segregated dorm, for crying out loud. 

That's why I was mentioning the woke agenda of the show. When the paraolympics are held next year (I hope—damn that Covid 19!!!!) all of the athletes will be using implements. Hell, a wheelchair is a prosthetic device.

Now if in the scene where she and Zoey were in the office showed her talking (badly), that would be one thing, but having the Asian guy acting as a translator who later praised ASL is another. It's a political agenda.

[ams1001]

 

7 hours ago, Dani said:

I think we’ve seen Mo doing at least 4 jobs: building manager, D.J., painter and fashion designer. 

It was also mentioned in another ep that as building manager he gets a break on rent.

[dubbel zout]

8 hours ago, MVFrostsMyPie said:

I remember at my last job, a really naive coworker at work started complaining about a skunk’s spray stinking up our office through an open window and we had to point out to her there was a guy smoking a joint down below on the street.

LOL. At a job of mine ages ago, a guy had skunk pot in his backpack, and the smell was so strong we made him put it somewhere else. That stuff can be pungent.

[anniebird]

19 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Especially if they are sharing that son (you didn't write "sons".)

And I thought if I wrote "sons" you'd think there was some kind of kinky foursome going on.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Just before going into Abigail's dorm, Howie specifically said that one of the things that being in Afghanistan and then being a caregiver taught him was what a gift life is and how we should be making our own choices, which is exactly what he needed to let Abigail do. Not everything in life is easy but people still try. Hiking the Appalachian Trail isn't easy. Neither is running a marathon. Yet people insist on challenging themselves and pushing themselves to their limits. Why shouldn't Abigail be allowed to do something that isn't going to be easy like go to Kenya?

Her project in Kenya uses software that teaches sign language to kids while they learn English. The international programs that my university had required students to learn the language of the country they were going to so I'm assuming that Abigail learned at least enough Swahili to communicate the basics. English is the other official language of Kenya so she will probably be fine even if she doesn't know a lot of Swahili. She can always write things down in English for anyone who doesn't know ASL.

And I didn't interpret what Abigail said as rejecting any type of adaptive assistance (even though it well within her rights to do so, the same way that not all amputees get prosthetics, sometimes by choice, sometimes because they aren't a good candidate). To me, it sounded like she tried a lot of things that ended up not working for her.

Even if it comes out in a later episode that Abigail was a perfect candidate for a cochlear implant or a hearing aid and she decided against it, her personal choice not to do so doesn't mean she was vilifying or judging people who do. As Howie said, this is about everyone being given the opportunity to make their own choices.

What Abigail said (per Tobin's translation):

Abigail: Ever since I was little, [my dad]'s always tried to shelter me from the world and make me better whether it was cochlear implants or hearing aids or speech therapy. But when nothing fixed me, he was devastated.
Zoey: Doesn't that show how much he cares about you?
Abigail: Maybe to him, but he always made me feel like something was wrong with me. And then I went to college and met people who didn't view their deafness as a weakness. I now know I can do anything I want to do.
Zoey: Like go to Kenya.
Abigail: Exactly. I could wallow or choose to feel bad for myself or I can embrace life, take control, and make my own destiny. I'm not going to let him or anyone else stop me.

Edited April 8, 2020 by ElectricBoogaloo

[ams1001]

2 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

LOL. At a job of mine ages ago, a guy had skunk pot in his backpack, and the smell was so strong we made him put it somewhere else. That stuff can be pungent.

I worked with a guy who would go out on his break and smoke in his car, then come back in absolutely reeking. He didn't last long.

[Notwisconsin]

31 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Abigail: Ever since I was little, [my dad]'s always tried to shelter me from the world and make me better whether it was cochlear implants or hearing aids or speech therapy. But when nothing fixed me, he was devastated.

In the late 20th and early 21st century doctors knew what 'nerve deafness" is. The above quote shows how the WRITERS parrot the agenda of the anti-CI activists. If a person is legally blind, for example, glasses aren't an option, they're a necessity. Mr. Magoo wasn't a funny cartoon character because he was legally blind, it was because he refused to wear glasses and blundered about pretending he had perfect vision.

Abigail, as an avatar for the woke writers and their activist consultants, is a version of Mr. Magoo, except that Magoo is portrayed as a positive role model.

51 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Even if it comes out in a later episode that Abigail was a perfect candidate for a cochlear implant or a hearing aid and she decided against it, her personal choice not to do so doesn't mean she was vilifying or judging people who do. As Howie said, this is about everyone being given the opportunity to make their own choices.

Yeah, it does. Rather the writers. My nephew is severely handicapped, and he's gone on several trips that one can count as adventurous, but he always chooses those that are tailored for his handicap. He cannot move without expensive equipment. He's an advocate for the handicapped and I salute him for that. But he is not a "mister magoo-ist" like the consultants seem to be.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Notwisconsin said:

In the late 20th and early 21st century doctors knew what 'nerve deafness" is. The above quote shows how the WRITERS parrot the agenda of the anti-CI activists. If a person is legally blind, for example, glasses aren't an option, they're a necessity. Mr. Magoo wasn't a funny cartoon character because he was legally blind, it was because he refused to wear glasses and blundered about pretending he had perfect vision.

Abigail, as an avatar for the woke writers and their activist consultants, is a version of Mr. Magoo, except that Magoo is portrayed as a positive role model.

We don’t know enough about Abigail to know if she can even get a cochlear implant. Based on what we saw I doubt that she could because that seems like something Howie would have brought up during the Kenya argument. If she had some ability to hear sounds or communicate verbally it would have been an argument in her favor. 

I really don’t think that glasses and cochlear implants are equivalent. Glasses are a external device that amplifies a persons natural ability to see. They can be removed at anytime. If my glasses required a surgical implant I don’t think I would do it. Also anyone with vision issues can wear glasses but not everyone with hearing loss can get a CI. 

Of course glasses are optional for someone who is legally blind. Some people who are legally blind can benefit from glasses but for many glasses do not provide enough of an improvement to be useful. 

Edited April 8, 2020 by Guest

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

And I didn't interpret what Abigail said as rejecting any type of adaptive assistance (even though it well within her rights to do so, the same way that not all amputees get prosthetics, sometimes by choice, sometimes because they aren't a good candidate). To me, it sounded like she tried a lot of things that ended up not working for her. . . .

Abigail: Ever since I was little, [my dad]'s always tried to shelter me from the world and make me better whether it was cochlear implants or hearing aids or speech therapy. But when nothing fixed me,

Just one other issue with remedies for disabilities to consider, specifically cochlear implants: My father gradually went totally deaf over his last 40 years of life (he lived to 91) and spent quite a bit on hearing aids --which he liked to remind me that the best part was that he could turn them off and have total silence. He considered cochlear implants, but my (his) understanding is (was) that all hearing would be robotic and distorted sounding, and that he would never have his blissful silence again, so he decided against cochlear implants. I have pretty loud tinnitus, which helped me understand his decision. He became facile at reading lips, though that didn't help when my mother would yell from the next room --or did it? 😉

 

 

[auntiemel]

9 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

He became facile at reading lips, though that didn't help when my mother would yell from the next room --or did it? 😉

That's so funny! A college student I used to interpret for was actually unsettled by the whole concept of hearing, because it enabled people to know what was going on in rooms - or even apartments - they weren't in. Things like, "So and so is doing the dishes," or, "The neighbors are watching Glee again," type of thing. She found it, in her words, "creepy."

The lesson I gleaned from that is, it doesn't matter how small a percentage of the population our point of view represents, we ALWAYS think our perspective is the best and others are at least a little skewed. 🤣

 

15 hours ago, Notwisconsin said:

But vilifying those who choose to use aids or implements is the whole point of the episode. The deaf daughter character WAS able to hear, for a while, that's what cochlear implants DO. She didn't WANT to hear, she didn't WANT to be able to speak to the 99% of the population who had functional ears and thus never learned to sign ASL. Hell, she chose to live in a specially segregated dorm, for crying out loud.

First of all, we don't know that she was ever able to hear. Cochlear Implants do not work for everyone. The medical and psychological reasoning behind why not every case is a good candidate, and why often even those that initially seem to be don't ultimately work out, is easily accessible. Second, the decision not to use something does not equal vilifying those who do.

Also, the idea of a deaf dorm is that the folks who live there can relax around one another, speak their native language, and form the kinds of deep relationships one does when you cohabitate, with people who share their experience and can relate in a deep way. It's not about segregating from the rest of the school in a larger sense - they still participate in campus life - clubs, classes, etc. - just like any student who lives in any other dorm does. It's just about the idea that home should be the place where you can truly relax.

[Guest]

Is anyone else irritated that show keeps bringing in amazingly talented women as obstacles to the love triangle just to write them off? I have loved every performance by Stephanie Styles (Autumn) and India de Beaufort (Jessica). I am disappointed about both of their breakups just because we don’t get to hear them sing anymore. Nearly all the amazing singers in the regular cast are male and it is feeling really lopsided. 

Edited April 11, 2020 by Guest

[auntiemel]

17 minutes ago, Dani said:

Is anyone else irritated that show keeps bringing in amazingly talented women as obstacle to the love triangle just to write them off? I have loved every performance by Stephanie Styles (Autumn) and India de Beaufort (Jessica). I am disappointed about both of their breakups just because we don’t get to hear them sing anymore. Nearly all the amazing singers in the regular cast are male and it is feeling really lopsided. 

It hadn't occurred to me until you said it, but now that I think about it, YES, absolutely!

[shapeshifter]

18 minutes ago, Dani said:

Is anyone else irritated that show keeps bringing in amazingly talented women as obstacle to the love triangle just to write them off? I have loved every performance by Stephanie Styles (Autumn) and India de Beaufort (Jessica). I am disappointed about both of their breakups just because we don’t get to hear them sing anymore. Nearly all the amazing singers in the regular cast are male and it is feeling really lopsided. 

Good question. From my somewhat feminist perspective, it's actually okay for these reasons:

• theoretically more women are given opportunity to work on the show
• the guys are generally left looking like anti-heroes rather than heroes
• it reduces the amount of screen time that the male main characters are on the screen in favor of women
• it keeps Zoey (a woman) as the main character

Still, your point is nonetheless valid, @Dani.
But I think it is just happening because Zoey is the lead, so all other females (even her boss) must be shown as lesser, whereas the male almost-leads are given more leeway by the writers because they are not the lead.

[Clanstarling]

I know very little about the deaf community, but they are a community of human beings. So what I know about human beings is that within any community there is a wide range of opinion which can generally be tracked on a bell curve. The majority will be in the middle and the more extreme opinions at either end.

Some opinions get a lot of play in tv and the media, others don't.  Myself, I don't see representing a possibly less known point of view as some sort of political message. Just a piece of insight into a specific belief type.

I think people have a right to their own decisions about what to do with their own bodies. I might not think they are right - but they're the ones who live in their bodies and live with the consequences of whatever decisions they make, and their decisions do not offend me. Sometimes they baffle me, but not offend.

So I personally thought the storyline was beautiful and illuminating. As a parent, it would drive me crazy with worry, as it did her father. But I'd shut up about it after a calm discussion, and worry from afar. (which I have done with my adult children).

Edited April 8, 2020 by Clanstarling

[meatball77]

There's a lot of debate in the deaf community about implants.  It's complicated.  The deaf consider themselves a culture and are often very passionate about their place in it.  The show Switched at Birth did a great job exploring many of the different viewpoints.  It's not black and white.

[shapeshifter]

17 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I know very little about the deaf community, but they are a community of human beings. So what I know about human beings is that within any community there is a wide range of opinion which can generally be tracked on a bell curve. The majority will be in the middle and the more extreme opinions at either end.

Some opinions get a lot of play in tv and the media, others don't.  Myself, I don't see representing a possibly less known point of view as some sort of political message. Just a piece of insight into a specific belief type.

I think people have a right to their own decisions about what to do with their own bodies. I might not think they are right - but they're the ones who live in their bodies and live with the consequences of whatever decisions they make, and their decisions do not offend me. Sometimes they baffle me, but not offend.

So I personally thought the storyline was beautiful and illuminating. As a parent, it would drive me crazy with worry, as it did her father. But I'd shut up about it after a calm discussion, and worry from afar. (which I have done with my adult children).

This is probably the best post every anywhere.
It should be used as an example for new Communications courses on Interactive Media that will no doubt arise on college "campuses" out of the current zeitgeist.
The post for an example of the opposite would likely be Vanessa Hudgens' "people are gonna die."

Edited April 9, 2020 by shapeshifter

[bros402]

I liked this episode. Now if you had told me going into this series that "Fight Song" would be among my top picks of songs covered on this first season, I would tell you that you were crazy.

But damn, that was great.
 

On 4/7/2020 at 11:56 PM, BoogieBurns said:

Not sure if this has been dug into elsewhere. But Mo is non-gender conforming who appears to use he/him pronouns. So I wouldn't suppose referring to Mo as a woman would be correct. It hasn't been spelled out for us, so I don't mean to sound lecture-y. More just talking through what we know about Mo. 

Mo has, by far, the best wardrobe on the show! And what a voice! I'm reminded of Tituss Burgess and am curious if he was in the running for this great role. 

Yeah, Mo gives me hardcore Tituss vibes - I HAVE to imagine he was considered, either that or the casting call was "Tituss Burgess, but not Tituss Burgess."

On 4/8/2020 at 12:50 PM, Dani said:

We don’t know enough about Abigail to know if she can even get a cochlear implant. Based on what we saw I doubt that she could because that seems like something Howie would have brought up during the Kenya argument. If she had some ability to hear sounds or communicate verbally it would have been an argument in her favor. 

I really don’t think that glasses and cochlear implants are equivalent. Glasses are a external device that amplifies a persons natural ability to see. They can be removed at anytime. If my glasses required a surgical implant I don’t think I would do it. Also anyone with vision issues can wear glasses but not everyone with hearing loss can get a CI. 

Of course glasses are optional for someone who is legally blind. Some people who are legally blind can benefit from glasses but for many glasses do not provide enough of an improvement to be useful. 

It sounds like they had tried a cochlear implant at some point (but we obviously don't know what came of it). Glasses and cochlear implants are nowhere near the same league. It'd be like saying a hernia repair is an equivalent to, I dunno, heart surgery.

My left eye is pretty much legally blind - I wear glasses, but just a super low prescription with lenses that are more damage resistant. My "good eye" has a stronger prescription than my "bad one" - and my ophthalmologist doesn't want to stress my eyes out, so that's what we do.

[Electruck]

I’m really surprised to read the takes on the Max/Zoey “I’ve been offered a promotion” end. I just watched (but can’t rewatch to check because I watched online), but wasn't she speaking last as the Zoey who sang I’m Yours and that Zoey encouraged him “to go after what you want”? I felt that also meant pursuing her, too. Wasn’t that scene after she told Simon she was done with him? I felt like the direction Skylar was given was “react in a way that could look encouraged or annoyed.”

i recently read a book by Harben Girma about growing up deafblind (she went to Harvard Law and also volunteered in Africa), and I wanted to make Howie read it. 😄

[HighHopes]

8 hours ago, bros402 said:

It sounds like they had tried a cochlear implant at some point (but we obviously don't know what came of it). Glasses and cochlear implants are nowhere near the same league. It'd be like saying a hernia repair is an equivalent to, I dunno, heart surgery.

My left eye is pretty much legally blind - I wear glasses, but just a super low prescription with lenses that are more damage resistant. My "good eye" has a stronger prescription than my "bad one" - and my ophthalmologist doesn't want to stress my eyes out, so that's what we do.

I want to clarify that I never meant to imply glasses and cochlear implants are the same thing. Rather that cochlear implants won’t work for every deaf individual similar to how lasik eye surgery won’t work for every individual who requires glasses. Just because it’s available it doesn’t mean that it will work for everyone (or that the person would even want it).

[Bill1978]

On 4/7/2020 at 11:52 PM, HighHopes said:

But since you mentioned it. I do correct my vision with contacts but only one eye as I’m legally blind in the other. I’m not saying it has to the one or the other — there will be blind people who want their vision corrected and those that don’t. Neither is wrong. Those within the community will have different opinions but that’s always going to happen. But the thing that is wrong is the idea that non-able bodied individuals are in need of being “cured” so that they are “normal”.

 

On 4/8/2020 at 6:05 AM, auntiemel said:

Basically, everyone is born different. Some people have physical challenges, and for some of those challenges there is assistive technology available that they may or may not choose to avail themselves of, in the pursuit of living their version of the best possible life. And what they choose is no one's fucking business but their own.

I know my condition is nothing compared to blindness or deafness or anything else, but reading theses discussions reminded me of something I've experienced.

I am red-green colour blind and cannot see purple. The doctor did give me the fancy term for it all, but I can't remember. I wasn't diagnosed with my colour blindness until I was 22 and was required to get a medical for my teaching job. So I was living what I thought was a 'natural coloured life for 22 years.  As a Science teacher I love being able to share my colour blindness with my students. In recent years, when discussing it with my classes, it is inevitable that someone will bring up those new glasses that will fix my colour vision. And I tell them the same thing. I have got this far in my life experiencing the world with the colours I think I see and they are often the same colours as you are seeing (technically), if I put on those glasses I will see what I am 'missing' out on and I don't want to then spend the rest of my life wondering about what I'm looking at. I would prefer to just continuing experiencing the colours as I have all my life then put on a set of glasses so someone can feel good that they've allowed me to experience the 'real' world. And honestly I feel they want me to wear these glasses so I can tell them exactly what colours my eyes normally see so they can understand the condition better rather than making my life 'better'

So I understand why there would be people who don't want to be 'fixed' so they can experience a 'normal' life for our benefit.