S05.E07: The Ballad of Roger Mac

[Athena]

Quote

The Regulator Rebellion reaches a boiling point, forcing Jamie to face his fear.

Reminder: The is the book talk thread. This can include spoilers for ALL the books. If you wish to remain unspoiled for any of the books, please leave now and head to the No Book Talk episode thread.

[Haleth]

Uh oh. Sounds bad. 

[ruby24]

This is the book with Roger's hanging, right? That's like one of the major things I remember about this one- I wonder if it's coming up now. Did that happen before or after Jamie's snakebite?

[GHScorpiosRule]

6 hours ago, ruby24 said:

This is the book with Roger's hanging, right? That's like one of the major things I remember about this one- I wonder if it's coming up now. Did that happen before or after Jamie's snakebite?

If I recall correctly, and my memory's fuzzy, I believe it was before Jamie's snake bite.

[AD55]

I'd have to check, but I also think it was before the snake bite. In fact, IIRC, part of Jamie's motivation in taking Roger along is to distract him and also help him see himself as someone who is valued for something other than his musical ability. It will probably turn out I'm wrong, as I read this book years ago.

[Rilla-my-Rilla]

Yeah the hanging and snake bite are this book. The hanging does come before the bite. The snake bite comes up kind of late in the book.

But I'm guessing this could be the hanging episode too.

[DietCokeJunkie]

Of all the horrible things that happen in the Outlander universe, this episode was one of the worst, in my opinion. I need to process the dark. And aside from the obvious horrors, seeing Jaime as a redcoat was so disturbing. My skin was crawling just watching him  

On the lighter side, Jamie and Claire’s birthday sex was a nice return to their connection, and seeing Graham McTavish again was a fun surprise, even if he was portraying an awful person. 
 

ETA: Jamie in the river praying for Dougal’s guidance in battle should have been a huge anvil dropping about the reappearance of Graham McT. In hindsight I totally see it, but at the time it went right over my head. 
 

 

Edited March 29, 2020 by DietCokeJunkie
Still processing this episode.

[theschnauzers]

Back when the viewers realized that Murtaugh had survived Culoden and the exile to America, I had suspected this would be the point he would die. 

The biggest remaining mystery from this part of the book series remaining that was briefly shown last episode, the gold bars is still out.

[anamika]

Nor sure why this episode was called 'The Ballad of Roger Mac' when it was mostly about Jamie, Murtagh and the militia Vs regulators plot.

Goodbye Murtagh. Never really cared about you, but you got a good send off.

Murtagh getting killed by that chap reminded me of when Olly killed Ygritte on Game of Thrones. Exactly the same scenario with Jon Snow and Ygritte fighting on opposite sides.

Poor Roger. Looks like they brought back Graham Mctavish to play William Mackenzie.

Sophie Skelton still has the same one expression in all her scenes.

 

Edited March 29, 2020 by anamika

[Ziggy]

I enjoyed the episode itself, but the title frustrates me!  I think if they had given it a different title, I would have been perfectly happy with the way they handled the story.  But to practically scream at all of us, "THIS IS THE EPISODE WITH ROGER'S HANGING!" and then to have the episode end the way it did ... Roger was barely in the episode! 

 

[AD55]

On the whole, I like this episode. I'm one of the few Roger fans as a book reader. I appreciate having a character who is flawed but tries his best. The king of men trope grates on me. But the TV series definitely emphasizes his dickish qualities.

I agree that the title was too much foreshadowing for book readers. I kept waiting for the hanging, which took me out of the episode. But I like how evocative it is, with ballad relating to his musical talent and to the convergence here of his backstory as the direct descendent of Geillis and Dougal with his present history as the husband of a woman who is also part of that lineage. The actors knocked it out of the park, with the exception of Sophie. I think she has definitely improved, but damn if Claire didn't look more upset than her daughter to see Roger hanging from a tree. And in the book, didn't Bree run and hold Roger's body steady while Jamie cut him down? If so, that was a missed opportunity to show Bree's strength and to give Sophie something to do besides trying to emote. And I thought Roger lived long enough to be saved because his toes were barely touching the ground and he was able to insert his fingers between his neck and the rope. I don't buy him surviving the way the hanging is portrayed in the episode.

I like the way Roger's fundamental decency comes across in this episode.

I'm glad Jamie didn't have to kill Murtagh, but I'm relieved he is dead, much as I like his character. I found the regulators storyline a little dull, and I was tired of wondering each week whether this was the episode in which Murtagh dies and will Jamie be the one who kills him.

Edited March 29, 2020 by AD55

[Quickbeam]

 

Quote

Sophie Skelton still has the same one expression in all her scenes.

 

She’s so awful. My husband, a very casual, now and then watcher of this show said: “was there a reason they had to cast her? Is she someone’s niece?”

I never liked Roger in the books but Rankin really brings it. Plus he has to do the acting for two. Eyeroll. 

Edited March 29, 2020 by Quickbeam
Fumble fingers

[iMonrey]

Isiah looks an awful lot like Fergus. And where was Fergus in this episode anyway? Did he stay behind because he only has one hand so he wasn't conscripted to fight?

Roger sure has shitty luck. First being sold into Indian slavery and now this.

Edited March 29, 2020 by iMonrey

[areca]

Fuck this episode.  I was pretty close to an ugly cry.  Also, I'm tired of Sophie Skelton.  She got better, but she stopped improving pretty rapidly and by far and away the worst actor on the show.

[Glaze Crazy]

I liked this episode, even with the dark and emotional beats. Maybe that's why? Not everything is bright and rosy and "Little House on the Prairie" good times. I think this one brought the dire circumstances all these people are going to face going forward. Choices, alliances, enemies, challenges. I think the choice of the title was appropriate. What better story to tell and embellish than the man who survives a hanging?

The morning scene and conversation with Jamie and Claire was much more organic and smooth than that stable scene last week, which was less so, even though both are in the book.

I had to let book Roger Mac grow on me, but I like the character very much now. I'm looking forward to see where Richard Rankin takes this. He's definitely been an excellent fit for the character.

Sad for the loss of Murtagh but it was clear that the character didn't have anywhere else to go. It still brings Jamie's loss of his godfather to the story, in the end. Glad to see they gave the character the book comment about dying that Jamie remembers from finding Murtagh at Culloden.

Totally missed that it was Graham McTavish under all the hair and what not. Good job, makeup dept.  I did think he looked familiar though and was wondering who the actor was. LOL.

[Nidratime]

Quote

Totally missed that it was Graham McTavish under all the hair and what not. Good job, makeup dept.  I did think he looked familiar though and was wondering who the actor was. LOL.

Which character was he?

[Glaze Crazy]

13 minutes ago, Nidratime said:

Which character was he?

William Buchleigh MacKenzie, "Buck", Dougal's son with Gellis, Morag's husband that fought with Roger and had him dragged off. Lots of shaggy curls and a full beard.

 

Edited March 30, 2020 by Glaze Crazy

[Ziggy]

1 hour ago, Glaze Crazy said:

Totally missed that it was Graham McTavish under all the hair and what not. Good job, makeup dept.  I did think he looked familiar though and was wondering who the actor was. LOL.

I'm so glad I'm not the only one who completely missed that.  I noticed a few people mention him and thought, huh?  Was there a flashback of Dougal I missed?  I re-watched that part, and then thought, how did I miss him the first time?

[Linderhill]

when Murtagh died a part of my mind said "we're finally correcting the alteration of the time flow" completely ignoring the fact that Murtagh dying at Culloden was still fictional. 🤦‍♀️  I too missed that it was Graham under all that hair.  Like everyone else I figured that this was the episode of Roger's hanging but I'm confused that it was at the end and Roger was hardly in the episode.  Way to not so subtly hint to the book readers that this was when it was going to happen.  

Another point I really hope that Mr. Brown of Brownsville gets his comeuppance soon.  He is truly an awful human being.

[Scarlett45]

Does anyone know why we have to wait TWO WHOLE WEEKS?? My mom had her mouth hanging open and she said “Roger is dead????” I told her the forum told me he was not. 

[Linderhill]

10 hours ago, AD55 said:

And in the book, didn't Bree run and hold Roger's body steady while Jamie cut him down? If so, that was a missed opportunity to show Bree's strength and to give Sophie something to do besides trying to emote. And I thought Roger lived long enough to be saved because his toes were barely touching the ground and he was able to insert his fingers between his neck and the rope. I don't buy him surviving the way the hanging is portrayed in the episode.

If they had actually cast an actress that was closer to book Brianna (an actress that is actually 6 foot) this would have been a great scene.  But no, we have Sophie with her patent gaping look.  And God forbid Hollywood cast a woman who isn't petite and delicate.

[Clawdette]

I very much liked the way Sam played being forced to don the red uniform jacket. There was so much emotion displayed but in a restrained manner across his face. The thoughts that must have been roiling through Jamie’s brain at having to wear the symbol of untold personal pain.

[SassAndSnacks]

This was exciting and fantastic. 

12 hours ago, AD55 said:

I agree that the title was too much foreshadowing for book readers. I kept waiting for the hanging, which took me out of the episode.

I had this problem a bit, too. I had to keep reminding myself to pay attention and then after a bit, I was swept into it.

The choice with Buck was interesting, and I really like it (nevermind that I always pictured him with blonde hair). I also didn’t realize it was Graham McTavish. I heard the voice and thought it sounded familiar. Then, I saw him and thought, “That dude looks a lot like Dougal.” And then, “Oooohhh, makes sense.”

The sendoff Claire gives Jamie... All of the feels. I had immediate flashbacks to Prestonpans. These two, radiating love and chemistry. Seriously, it’s this story that I signed up for when I devoted a lot of sleepless nights to reading 8 books, and it’s what got me through them multiple times. 

Speaking of the books, thank goodness I’m a book reader and know how this turns out because I would be beside myself right now! They left EVERYONE hanging. 

 

[Ziggy]

2 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Does anyone know why we have to wait TWO WHOLE WEEKS?? My mom had her mouth hanging open and she said “Roger is dead????” I told her the forum told me he was not. 

Really?  Two weeks?  I missed that, too, apparently!

[ruby24]

I don't know why they had them cover Roger's head with a bag. In the book they found him hanging there without one, right? The two people I was watching with didn't believe it was him because they didn't show his face. Kinda kills the suspense. 

Especially the way the scene plays out in the book- Roger is basically dead for like two minutes or something before Claire finally resuscitates him. They could have let the TV audience know that it was really him and still surprise them with the way it turns out he's not actually dead yet.

Edited March 30, 2020 by ruby24

[Haleth]

Sam was excellent in this episode.  Submit as Emmy reel.

I wouldn't have recognized Graham McTavish if I hadn't seen his name here.  That was fun, but he doesn't look like a guy in his 20s. <handwave>

RIP Murtagh Fitzgibbons.  It made sense for the character to end this way.  Thankfully Jamie didn't shoot him.

20 hours ago, AD55 said:

I'm one of the few Roger fans as a book reader.

I like Roger.  I keep yelling at him that Bree isn't worth it.  Run, Roger, run!

[GHScorpiosRule]

6 hours ago, ruby24 said:

I don't know why they had them cover Roger's head with a bag. In the book they found him hanging there without one, right?

Because it's not Roger. It's a misdirect. And a stupid one. I suppose it's "drrrrraaaamaaaa" for non-buik readers, because those that have read it, know that's not how it happened. And yes, they found him and buik!Bree held him up while Jamie cut him down. But like someone up thread said, Sophie is too small to have done that, as in the source material, Bree is nearly six feet tall. But, whatever. I hope we don't get a flashback to what Buck did with that thingamajig that Jamie passed out to his men. Unless I misread it and Buck didn't shove it down inside Roger's throat when he hanged him.

That said, I agree, totally with @Haleth--Sam was AWESOME. Just the look on his face when Tryon put the red coat on him; but especially when Murtagh died. I know that Murtagh's story was ending, but damned if I wasn't pissed at that little pissant for killing him. For one, Jamie wasn't in danger--Murtagh wasn't holding a gun/pitchfork/weapon at him, or at the little turd. Didn't waver, my arse. But man, Sam really was awesome as Jamie held Murtagh; and then later, begged Claire to save him, and telling Murtagh he changed his mind and that he didn't release him from his oath.

And while I loathe Brown, I'm wondering, did Claire only bring one fucking syringe to treat the wounded? And I hope I'm totally misremembering, but he's not one

of the men that raped Claire, is he?

And I can't believe that Claire just whimpered "What have you done?" when he crushed the syringe, instead of raging and ripping him a new one.

And on a purely shallow, shallow, shallow, not, mmmm yes, Sam/Jamie wi'ooot a shirt, yum!😍💘😍

I like to think when he was rubbing his hand, he was remembering how he nearly lost it when Black Jack had nailed it back in season one. Even if 'tis the wrong hand!

[Ziggy]

3 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Because it's not Roger. It's a misdirect. And a stupid one.

 

You think in the show they changed it so that it's not really Roger?  Wouldn't that change too much by not forcing Roger to lose his singing voice?

I do agree that the show intentionally makes you question.  I've noticed many on social media suggest that it's simply not Roger at the end.

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 minute ago, Ziggy said:

You think in the show they changed it so that it's not really Roger?  Wouldn't that change too much by not forcing Roger to lose his singing voice?

I do agree that the show intentionally makes you question.  I've noticed many on social media suggest that it's simply not Roger at the end.

Yes, Because in the previews, you see Bree saying something about Roger being missing. So, at this point, it appears they went off-buik. I think it was a combination of the hanging and having that brooch or whatever that identified the men as Jamie's men, either being shoved down his throat or between his throat and the rope, that led to Roger losing his singing voice. I can't recall which it was.

 

[Ziggy]

5 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Yes, Because in the previews, you see Bree saying something about Roger being missing. So, at this point, it appears they went off-buik. I think it was a combination of the hanging and having that brooch or whatever that identified the men as Jamie's men, either being shoved down his throat or between his throat and the rope, that led to Roger losing his singing voice. I can't recall which it was.

 

She didn't say he was missing.  She said she needed her husband back.  I took that to mean the writers were being careful with her words so as to remain vague and not give anything away for next week.

[GHScorpiosRule]

5 minutes ago, Ziggy said:

She didn't say he was missing.  She said she needed her husband back.  I took that to mean the writers were being careful with her words so as to remain vague and not give anything away for next week.

Ah. I tend not to pay too much attention when she's speaking. And it's two weeks. No episode next week.

[Cdh20]

54 minutes ago, Ziggy said:

She didn't say he was missing.  She said she needed her husband back.  I took that to mean the writers were being careful with her words so as to remain vague and not give anything away for next week.

Those previews are always strung together & edited in a way to not give anything away! 

 

As bookreaders/bookfans  are you all happy with this episode? All the nonbook things coming together in an amazing way, Murtagh, the syringe, the red coat?

Edited March 30, 2020 by Cdh20
spelling & grammar

[Ziggy]

51 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Ah. I tend not to pay too much attention when she's speaking. And it's two weeks. No episode next week.

Someone else mentioned no episode for two weeks.  I must have missed that in the preview or something.  Ug!  I do not want to wait two weeks 😞

[Ziggy]

14 minutes ago, Cdh20 said:

As bookreaders/bookfans  are you all happy with this episode? All the nonbook things coming together in an amazing way, Murtagh, the syringe, the red coat?

I thought it was a great episode!!!  Loved Jamie throughout!  My only complaint is the title.  I didn't like that they used that title for THIS episode.  But I will say that overall, I have been very, very happy with how they've translated the book to the screen.  There have been many times when I've wondered how they were going to handle something and been very pleasantly surprised at what they came up with.  Really, the next episode could affect how I feel about this episode, including the title.  So I will remain open minded and just see what comes next.

Edited March 30, 2020 by Ziggy

[SassAndSnacks]

Can I also just say that I have a love/hate relationship with the way they are setting up the situation with Claire and the Browns?  I hate that it is seemingly going to happen (but maybe it won't be as bad as in the book, says optimistic me, but then I remember what show I'm watching), but I appreciate that they are being more deliberate about it and giving that background more substance.  In the book, I was taken by surprise that it escalated so quickly.

Also, this episode was so reminiscent of the first season.  Superb acting (to be fair, almost all of the acting is always superb), tension-filled action scenes, heart-in-your-throat while watching.  I'm loving this season.

11 minutes ago, Ziggy said:

Really, the next episode could affect how I feel about this episode, including the title.  So I will remain open minded and just see what comes next.

I don't peak ahead to see what the episode titles are, or descriptions, or who wrote what, etc., but frequenting this site as I do, I saw that the next episode is "Famous Last Words" which I immediately took to reference the fallout of what happens to Roger and the silence that follows.  The call out in this title to him singing and the reference in the next title to no words would seem to be linked to the dramatic change that he physically goes through.  

Edited March 30, 2020 by SassAndSnacks

[AD55]

2 hours ago, Ziggy said:

She didn't say he was missing.  She said she needed her husband back.  I took that to mean the writers were being careful with her words so as to remain vague and not give anything away for next week.

That's what I think, too. I recall Bree being really angry that Tryon was trying to buy them off, and I thought the reference to wanting her husband back meant that she wanted him to come back to her emotionally. IIRC Roger wanted to die, which I understood at the time, since being a singer/musician is a major part of his identity and the only part that translates to life in the C18th. I also think he believes, probably correctly, that he's only valued for his musical talent. That's also the only thing he does better than Jamie, who I think is tone deaf.

[tennisgurl]

So this episodes theme is "Everyone has a really shitty day." 

Murtagh dying was inevitable of course, and this was probably the best time for it, story speaking (and I am really glad they didnt make Jamie do it) but that didnt make it any less sad to watch. At least he got to save Jamie one last time and die with Jamie by his side. All of the immediate aftermath was really well done, the acting was really excellent, especially when Jamie just looks like he is in absolute shock, and then when Claire was saying his name over and over.  

Seeing Jamie in that red coat just seemed felt so so wrong. He looked like his skin was crawling every second he had it on, like it was filled with ants or something, he looked so deeply uncomfortable. 

And in even more fun times, Roger tries to be nice and check in with the lady he helped, and it does not go super well. Roger is kind of a tough role, because his flaws are flaws that are less endearing I think to a mainstream audience than a lot of the other main characters, but the show has done a good job of showing him as a fundamentally decent sort of person who cares a lot about people, which makes his constant misery even worse. No wonder he wants to run back to the future as soon as possible, its all small pox death barges, being sold by his pissed off future father in law, torture sessions, and being hung by random assholes. 

At least, before everything went pear shaped, we got some sweet Jamie and Claire loving time!

[Scarlett45]

22 hours ago, Ziggy said:

Really?  Two weeks?  I missed that, too, apparently!

Yeah that’s what the preview said. Two weeks is Easter Sunday. Why not skip that week?

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

Roger is kind of a tough role, because his flaws are flaws that are less endearing I think to a mainstream audience than a lot of the other main characters, but the show has done a good job of showing him as a fundamentally decent sort of person who cares a lot about people, which makes his constant misery even worse. No wonder he wants to run back to the future as soon as possible, its all small pox death barges, being sold by his pissed off future father in law, torture sessions, and being hung by random assholes. 

I agree. I’ve disliked some of the things Roger has done with a fair amount of conviction, but I always believed he was a decent person. You can tell he was raised with a moral center to be kind to others and keep his promises. 
 

I still don’t get why he isn’t expected to run back to the future. Jaime acts like it’s a personal affront. He came to make sure Brianna was safe. Claire is the one who wanted to give up life in the 20th century for love. Roger is committed to Brianna and the baby but he wants his life in HIS time. 

[WatchrTina]

I finally saw the episode.

Holy shit.

[Ziggy]

23 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Yeah that’s what the preview said. Two weeks is Easter Sunday. Why not skip that week?

Not on Amazon.  It just said, "On the Next Episode."

I don't think it matters if they skip Easter or not.  No one's going anywhere 😞

[Scarlett45]

2 minutes ago, Ziggy said:

Not on Amazon.  It just said, "On the Next Episode."

I don't think it matters if they skip Easter or not.  No one's going anywhere 😞

I watch on Starz and they said a new episode in two weeks....very odd. I will double check. 
 

Google says April 12. 

[Ziggy]

12 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I watch on Starz and they said a new episode in two weeks....very odd. I will double check. 

I'm sure you're right.  I've seen the "two weeks" mentioned quite a few times.  It just wasn't included in the Amazon version, so I didn't know ahead of time.

Edited March 31, 2020 by Ziggy

[WatchrTina]

On 3/29/2020 at 12:16 AM, DietCokeJunkie said:

seeing Graham McTavish again was a fun surprise, even if he was portraying an awful person. 

Wait what?

 

On 3/29/2020 at 1:35 AM, anamika said:

Poor Roger. Looks like they brought back Graham Mctavish to play William Mackenzie.

Wait WHAT?

 

Okay I totally missed that.  I guess I AM going to have to watch this one again.  Damn.  I had planned on not doing that because what happened to Roger in this episode is one of my least favorite plot twists in the whole damn book series.

Edited March 31, 2020 by WatchrTina

[anamika]

7 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Roger is kind of a tough role, because his flaws are flaws that are less endearing I think to a mainstream audience than a lot of the other main characters,

There are a lot of double standards in this fandom when it comes to Roger and Jamie. Jamie gets a lot of leeway because it's understood that he's a man of his time.  Roger is expected to adhere to enlightened 21st century standards for the audience to like him. Jamie can say things like - 'you are a woman like no other Sassenach, but don't forget ...you are still a woman' and get away with it, but if Roger is angry about Brianna going to comfort her rapist and inform Bonnet that Jemmy is his son instead of Roger's then that's a hanging offense and he deserves to die.

So I doubt it's really people disliking the character for his flaws and more that unlike Sam Heughan, Rik Rankin is not considered hot enough for many of the audience to look past his flaws.

Edited March 31, 2020 by anamika

[cardigirl]

I think Rik is plenty hot enough.  😉  

[SassAndSnacks]

For what it’s worth, I like the way Book Roger is written better than the way Show Roger is written.  However, I like the way Rik Rankin portrays him better than the Roger I had in my head while reading.  So somewhere in all of that, I think things equal out.  I also think Rik Rankin is really attractive, and more so than they make him up to be on the show. 

Roger’s hanging was one of the most surprising, stomach clenching, gasping reads for me in the whole book series.  Right up there with Jamie’s time in Wentworth, Jamie fighting at Culloden, Claire with the Brown’s, and what happens to Claire in Book 8.  (I’m sorry. I don’t know why I feel the need to keep organizing and ranking things. Maybe I’m trying to bring a little bit of order to the chaos of the world.  Sure, that’s it…)

[GHScorpiosRule]

8 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

Wait what?

 

Wait WHAT?

 

Okay I totally missed that.  I guess I AM going to have to watch this one again.  Damn.  I had planned on not doing that because what happened to Roger in this episode is one of my least favorite plot twists in the whole damn book series.

Aye. Maril and Matthew talked about how they were able to keep Graham's casting, playing Dougal's son, when he played Dougal himself, a secret. Try as he might that voice, and that nose, gave him away. Dinna ye watch the after the episode recap? I loved how Rick and Graham were joking around.

11 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

and being hung by random assholes. 

They weren't random. The main guy was his many greats grandpa.

[AD55]

Count me among those who had no idea that was Graham McTavish playing William Mackenzie.

[Cdh20]

10 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

 

 

 

 

  I guess I AM going to have to watch this one again.  Damn.  I had planned on not doing that because what happened to Roger in this episode is one of my least favorite plot twists in the whole damn book series.

Oh God, there is a plot  worse than last season's sold to the natives plot I hated? I hope this one gets resolved much sooner than the end of the season.  Poor Roger!!! 

I like Roger, & am surprised how much Roger hate there is in the nonbook readers thread (I have not read this book yet, but intend to). I think it is because people expect him to have a 21st century perspective, but it is only a 20th century one! Big difference! 

Edited March 31, 2020 by Cdh20