S06.E12: A Girl Named Sue

[Trini]

After months of searching for Sue Dearbon (guest star Natalie Dreyfuss), Ralph gets a lead on her whereabouts and finally comes face to face with his missing client. However, Sue refuses to return home to her family, and instead, takes Ralph on a daring adventure. Iris faces a new challenge while Barry considers a potentially dangerous request from a trusted source.

Chris Peppe directed the episode written by Thomas Pound & Lauren Certo.

Airdate: 2/18/2020

[Trini]

Looking forward to see how they introduce Sue and Eva!

[phoenics]

I really liked Eva.  Sue seemed to pattern herself after Anne Hathaway's Catwoman - and at the risk of sounding petty - she also felt just a little Mary Sue-ish.  She knows multiple languages, is like a super spy, knows martial arts, and is rich.  Agree with the "wish fulfillment" thing - she almost feels like Patty all over again - just in a different way.  Very much a male-gaze character.

But I did like her much better when she double-crossed Ralph.

Poor Iris.  I don't know if I'm gonna be able to handle her being trapped in the mirror and pushed to the brink of insanity and possibly over the brink - with Barry clueless.  I need him to tune in and wake up.

And are we supposed to believe that B&Siri aren't having sex?

Also - what is Siri's endgame with that gun?

ETA: Anyone know how to record from a digital antenna?  Like a device?  I guess a DVR but one I can record and download from.  PM me if so.

Edited February 19, 2020 by phoenics

[UNOSEZ]

I immediately and wholeheartedly disliked Sue... I pray to all the Holies that she's only around a lil bit... She feels like wish-fufillment for some folks Still not sure what Siri is up to.... I felt for Eva... But after 6 years why is she wearing a silk blouse and pants and heels?...  Are there no clothes in this mirror world

[catrice2]

I see Ralph and I hit fast forward.......and Barry still doesn't know his wife....why oh why does Barry always have to be the last to know every season?  I'm still waiting for smart barry to appear, you know the Barry that was introduced on Arrow.  I have no idea what this episode was about...probably something else I fast forwarded through previously. 

[UNOSEZ]

What was up with all the camera closeups and smirks with Smug Dearborn??  Also her eyes getting all buggy.. And dear show I don't care if Smug Dearborn is also trying to fight Blackhole... We don't need or want her... Or.. If you really wanna put Sue and Ralph out there.. Give em their own show so I don't have to watch it 

[UNOSEZ]

Yeah.. I really was surprised by how visceral my reaction was.. All I know of sue is

Spoiler

that her and ralph are a pretty canonical couple in the DC universe...

But she was so smarmy and cutesy.. I kept wondering what man baby who wrote this thinks her behavior is  endearing?  She screws ralph and before leaving him with a very dangerous meta assassin whom she apparently knows   she has time to show off the diamond and smile... I guess if I thought the show planned to make her a villain.. But with the ending and

Spoiler

her place in the canon.. Its more likely she'll be on the heroes side 

 

[Bulldog]

11 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

I immediately and wholeheartedly disliked Sue

I wasn't a big fan either.  I noticed a new name in the credits and thought it was the actress.  I assumed she would be a new regular because they really seem to have hyped her arrival, but turns out that apparently the actress playing Eva is a new regular and Sue is just a guest star. 

I know next to nothing about the comic books, but from the comments I take it that Sue is

Spoiler

a rather big figure in the DC universe. 

Grodd next week!

[Lantern7]

When I heard "Eva McCulloch," I thought of the Mirror Master that Grant Morrison created, and I anticipated a Scottish accent that could dent steel. Way to let me down, show.

In all seriousness, this was a good episode. We finally meet Sue Dearbon, and she is a certified badass, as well as Ralph's soulmate (Cecile? We can draw our own conclusions) Siri continues to be morally grey, but he wins over Barry. Before that last shot of him looking at the mirror and maybe seeing Iris, I don't think anything tipped him off. Given the medium used, it's not as if Siri would write stuff with Iris's non-dominant hand. That woud involve subtlety. As a result, Barry looks like a dope. Well, more of a dope.

Eva did come off as a woman who had basically given up all hope after five years and over one thousand failed escapes.  She doesn't come off as dumb for not thinking of taking the mirror to absolute zero because Iris leads a very unique life. And, naturally, Eva can control mirrors. She and Iris are still stuck, though, with Siri runs around.

On 2/18/2020 at 9:57 PM, catrice2 said:

I see Ralph and I hit fast forward

Ralph has grown on me. I liked the giant protective hand near the end.

Edited February 23, 2020 by Lantern7

[adora721]

While Iris and Eva don't have the same great chemistry as Iris and Marlize (yet), I'm willing to give their partnership a chance. I'm wondering if it's heat they should have used on that side of the mirror instead of cold. Since the mirror world is the opposite, heat might have worked instead.

Sue is kinda bland to me. I don't hate or like her; just indifferent at the moment. I don't like that Ralph didn't use his powers in some subtle way to get out of the drum that guy was trying to drown him in. And the only reason for that is to make Sue look awesome. I'm not a fan of downplaying anyone else's strengths just to make someone else look good. And why would Ultraviolet go hand to hand instead of just using her powers? Like why even give Sue the opportunity to win in a fair fight or escape? Not smart villain thinking...

I feel sorry for Jenna; when she is old enough; she'll realize that the only kid daddy Joe cares about is the one kid that isn't his - Barry Allen.

I'm glad Ralph was venting to Barry and Iris about Sue. Hopefully, he continues going to them about Sue once they're a couple.

Forgot to mention how awesome it was without Caitlin Killer Frost and to have Iris make a new female friend who hasn't tried to kill her (yet).

Edited February 19, 2020 by adora721

[ottoDbusdriver]

If there is no one else in the Mirror Universe, what has Eva been eating all this time ?  Who has been producing food to eat ?  Why are her clothes so clean and not worn out ?  Where does the electricity come from ?  So .... many .... questions.

[UNOSEZ]

8 minutes ago, adora721 said:

Iris and Marlize (

Le sigh.... What could've been... 

[Ann Mack]

I seriously disliked the Sue character. Maybe she will grow on me later but this was too much, too soon for the first encounter. It was like some teenage boys wet dream of how they would build a girl if "Weird Science" was real or if they got a chance to revise with a 2.0 update. Overall the episode even with the overkill of Ralph and Sue and Cecile's ridiculous written scene to prop them up managed to be a good episode. What is really keeping me interested right now is Iris and how she will escape, how is Barry going to react once he comes to the realization he wasn't there for her, and how everything to some degree is ALL leading to Black Hole. Even Joe's bit tonight pertained to the Black Hole. I liked the Eva character and her performances was top notch in my opinion. The actor and Candice had a good rhythm and chemistry together.  Plus I'm giving them props for the way they are believably working all the characters in without making it seem forced. Seems next episode is going to heavily focus on Barry. I am actually enjoying the pacing of episodes with character interaction. S6B has actually been quite good so far. A few hiccups here and there but nothing significant that is completely screwing with the story line. Plus

Spoiler

soon Cisco and Kid Flash return.

When does the show go on hiatus again does anyone know? Thanks,

[shantown]

The complete lack of Caitlin/Killer Frost already makes this one of the best for the season for me! Aside from that this episode had good pacing, and I highly enjoy that while everyone was a mostly off doing their own thing, it was all leading towards the same place which — FINALLY! There can be a middle ground between everyone in Star Labs and no one speaking to each other! Let’s have more of that!

Let’s also have more of Barry actually being a CSI! More of Joe’s work having purpose! (Let’s have less of Cecile telling us how to feel though.)

I liked that Ralph and Sue weren’t in love immediately. I enjoyed the actress and am interested in what her role in pursuing Black Hole is and if it redeems her at all (I mean, it’s gotta? Right?)

Here’s to hoping that they can actually write a good payoff for Black Hole!

[Auror]

12 hours ago, shantown said:

I liked that Ralph and Sue weren’t in love immediately. I enjoyed the actress and am interested in what her role in pursuing Black Hole is and if it redeems her at all (I mean, it’s gotta? Right?)

 

I’m an enormous

Spoiler

Comic Canon fan of Ralph and Sue. Their story is so sweet (true, eternal Soulmates) and I adore Comic Sue. I’ve been looking forward to one of my favorite Comic pairings jumping off of the pages and entering the screen. So glad they have arrived! 

ETA: Thanks mod for putting my thoughts in tags. I should have remembered that’s still spoilers to those not aware of comic stuff. From now on it’s tags. 😀

Edited February 19, 2020 by Auror
adding spoiler tags

[tennisgurl]

I was actually liking Sue for most of the episode and I was happy to see Ralph finally (the guy has really drown on me, what can I say?) after him being missing since Crisis, but after it turned out that she had played him, I was seriously turned off, and she retroactively became a real annoyance. She is just so smug in her "I know everything I am good at everything look at my happy little smile as I fuck people over for selfish reasons" smirks, and finding out that she was playing Ralph all along makes her few moments of feeling like a normal person/character now look like they were fake. I mean, she even has a damn catsuit! Like, calm down Catwomen, wrong DC show! Am I supposed to find her asshole behavior, including letting her parents think she might be dead and possibly leaving Ralph, who has only been trying to help her, to get killed by a crazy meta? Seconds after he saved her from becoming swish cheese, charming? I suppose I am, because this is the Arrowverse and people are insanely forgiving of clearly crappy people that try to kill them and/or screw them over, and

Spoiler

Sue and Ralph are a pretty well known DC comics couple, so this is presumably endgame.

 Maybe they can turn around on her (I certainly came around on Ralph after awhile, to the point that I think he can do WAY better than this jerk sue, pun intended) and make her more likable, but I am really not feeling this as a perspective start of a relationship. This did at least do a pretty good job at showing Ralph's growth as a character, helping Sue even after she hurt him, and he did some solid detective work (even if, like many detectives before him, he fell pray to a pretty dame) even if I felt like they had to nerf him a few times to give Sue more big moments, and I liked the kind of vague references to his backstory, like how he got his powers by "riding a bus" which is really leaving out a lot of the more exciting parts of that story! I did think the actress playing Sue has potential at least, especially when/if she is allowed to show some more real emotions. I really like

Spoiler

comics Sue/Ralph, so hopefully they can do more with her.

I guess I can appreciate that it wasnt love at first sight, making it a bit more complicated, but hopefully they can turn down the more irritating parts of her personality.

The rest of the episode was pretty good, especially Iris and Eva, who is a new character that I am already liking. The actress was quite good, she did a good job at playing a person who is a bit cracked around the edges after years of isolation, but without going over the top. Siri continues to do a convincing Iris act, with her least convincing being with Nash, which was alright as he doesent really know her very well. It looked like Barry maybe sensed something in the mirror when Iris was looking at him, maybe they can connect still? Like...psychically through the love wavelengths? I dont know, its the Arrowverse, anything is possible! That freaking particle accelerator, its been years in and out of universe, and we are still cleaning that shit up! 

Hey look, Barry gets to be a CSI, and Joe gets to be a cop! What a day! I would take watching Barry and Joe going about their day at the office over another boring "Killer Frost learns to be a real girl" plot any day of the week! 

Nash is being haunted by Harry!

I liked that all of the plots were tied together more or less with Black Hole and the meta human trafficking corporation as the common thread, even if we dont know quite how they all connect. This is way better than when the show gives a bunch of characters random subplots that are all totally disconnected. Sometimes that works, if all the subplots are interesting, but I also like them all being at least somewhat connected and moving the plot forward, so even if one plot isnt super interesting, it still at least somewhat plot relevant. 

Now that Sue is around officially, I can go back to shooing Identity Crisis out with a broom. "Get, get out of here you weird and creepy story! Get out of my show..."

[quarks]

Another really great episode for Candice Patton, who is doing just beautiful work transitioning between Real Iris and Siri. And as much as I'm eyerolling over Barry not realizing that Siri isn't Iris, I did like the moment when Real Iris almost reached him through the mirror.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but other than the supposed friendship with Caitlin/Frost which apparently thrives despite the slight issue that the two never ever speak to each other on screen unless other characters are around and usually even then, this is the first real friend for Iris who isn't a) one of her employees or b) on another show that we've seen since, what, season 2, if then?  (I'm not counting the various extras who showed up at the wedding only to get chased out by Earth-X Nazis.) More of this, please. 

Less of a fan of Sue Dearborn, and even less of a fan of Cecile's suddenly fangirling over the Ralph/Sue relationship. Like, ok, yes, I'm aware that

Spoiler

this is the Comics Canon relationship,

but, a) these two just met, b) either Cecile made such a big deal about handing over her business card because she could tell that Sue would need a defense attorney, and soon, in which case, why not warn Ralph, or c) Cecile couldn't tell that Sue would need a defense attorney, and soon, in which case, if Cecile couldn't tell that, exactly how much credence can I be putting into Cecile's "Hey, you're both seriously into each other!" reading.  Given that the Arrowverse's record on

Spoiler

Comics Canon relationships has been, how to put this kindly, rather mixed, you need to give me more than this, show. 

That said, the actors had decent chemistry together, so that's a plus, and I did like their scenes together in Jitters, so that's another plus. And it's not really their fault that I was hideously distracted by the hellish set failures in two of their scenes, though, again, Flash, I really need to remind you that some of us not only watch the other Arrowverse shows, we also watch your show, and, yes, we can tell when you reuse the same set for two different locations in the same episode. 

I just hope the connection between the Iris/Siri plot, the arson plot, and the Sue plot turns out to be based on more than just a need to get everyone on the same set to save money. 

 

[Trini]

So I think Wallace needs to calm down some. While I'm sure most of these plots will converge later in the season, I think there may be just a few too many mysteries going on right now. (Although I admit some of it's intriguing.)

There's:

• Barry's speed weirdness,
• Carver and Black Hole,
• What's Siri up to?
• How will Iris escape?
• What's Sue up to?
• What's going on with Nash and Ghost(?) Harry?

Kind of a lot.

So Siri is a 'clone' and definitely shady. She has Iris' knowledge, but her own agenda where she's willing to sneak behind Barry's back. Hmmmm....

It seems that Barry can still sense Iris from the other side; good, good.

Yeah, so I also was enjoying Sue and Ralph until she screwed him over. Not a great start, even if she's also investigating Black Hole. (Cisco and Cynthia were in a literal death battle the first day they met, but they made up in the same episode, though.)

On one hand, I liked that they remembered Joe and Barry are cops, and had them some police work, and that they're bringing Joe into the Black Hole plot. On the other hand, isn't Black Hole supposed to be a Team Citizen story? They were missing this episode, and Siri doesn't count as working on it since she's got her own agenda.

More thoughts later....

[thuganomics85]

Should have known Sue wasn't who she said she was after she claimed the evil boyfriend wouldn't try to take her out in a public place like Jitters.  Everyone in Central City worth their salt know that Jitters is the hotspot for crime, dammit!

Glad to finally check back in with Ralph (yeah, I still can't believe I'm saying that), and we get to see his first interactions with Sue.  Which started out decent enough in the typical "banter, but clearly have the hots for one another" way, but then came that whole betrayal thing.  I guess they could end up explaining everything if it turns out she has her own reasons for wanting to take out Black Hole, but if they're

Spoiler

suppose to be a canonical couple, then they really aren't making me invested in their eventual relationship.

Iris in the mirror world with a still alive Eva McCulloch was interesting.  I noticed the actress is listed as a regular, so I guess she'll be around for a little bit.  Hopefully it won't take them another 1,333 tries to get out of there!

Candice Patton definitely seems to be enjoying playing Siri.  Still wonder what her actual endgame is.

Hey, Barry and Joe get to be cops for once!

Didn't even realize that Caitlin was absent, until the end.  Of course, Cisco is still off doing his own thing.

I see Nash is still be haunted by this Ghost Harry or whatever. 

Ultraviolet really is one of those villains who should be a dominant, unstoppable force, but keeps getting thwarted due to her own stupidity.  Although, to be fair, I guess a lot of comic villains really should be more effective than they are, if they just quit showing off (sort of like how the heroes should be more powerful than they are, but they'll just sometimes not use to their powers to stop easily stoppable situations for... reasons.)

[UNOSEZ]

5 hours ago, Ann Mack said:

It was like some teenage boys wet dream of how they would build a girl if "Weird Science" was real or if they got a chance to revise with a 2.0 update.

Total agreement here.. Like I said earlier she seemed to be some kind of wish fufilment character  for a section of fandom that for whatever " reason" never clicked with Iris... Lost and Behold I checked some other forums that have... Let's say different demographics and sensibilities... And man they Luuuuuuvvvvvv Sue... Thinking she's the type of lady this show has been missing... 

And I guess that's why I was so initially turned off.. Because the second she got on screen she felt like a gift or olive branch to somebody else.. But I'll try and be more patient 

[phoenics]

On 2/18/2020 at 11:14 PM, Bulldog said:

 

I know next to nothing about the comic books, but from the comments I take it that Sue is

Spoiler

a rather big figure in the DC universe. 

 

Spoiler

She really isn't.  Elongated Man is barely a tertiary character, so Sue is at his level.

ETA:  Sorry for not putting that in spoiler tags, mod! Thanks for adding them.

Edited February 21, 2020 by phoenics
adding spoiler tags

[phoenics]

7 hours ago, adora721 said:

I'm wondering if it's heat they should have used on that side of the mirror instead of cold. Since the mirror world is the opposite, heat might have worked instead.

 

Wow - I think you're absolutely right.

 

ETA to add:  What does Siri want with the mirror gun?

 

Edited February 19, 2020 by phoenics

[Starry]

I too got Catwoman vibes from Sue. It was an interesting enough twist but I am not sure how I feel about the thief angle. I didn't love the cutesy tough rebel socialite vibes the actress gave the character and found some of the scenes where she and Ralph were forced to make body contact rather lame. But they have serviceable chemistry when they go over plans together.

I didn't hate Sue and her plot was interesting enough to keep my attention. I am just not sure I want to see more of Ralph trying to save her from herself while she keeps flirting her way out of trouble. Also, this show should stop having women repeat that they are not damsels in distress. It's so on the nose I hate it.

Cecile could have been left out of the episode. I guess her only purpose was to point out that Sue does in fact genuinely like Ralph despite having her own agenda. At least that's how I made sense of her scenes, forced as they were.

I am glad that CP is getting her due but I need Barry to stop being played by this imposter. I said in other threads that if SirI is a total fake they need to expose her as soon as possible. I don't care about watching her get all the development and action scenes while the real Iris is trapped and Barry keeps being treated this coldly by someone he thinks is his wife. He's obviously not okay with how SirI is reacting to his displays of affection but he's probably convinced it's his fault, that he doesn't trust her enough with whatever she wants. Poor Barry was convinced Iris didn't stop by his lab because he didn't want to give her the Mirror Gun. I hope he can eventually sense his real wife through the mirror. That last scene with Iris telling him that she's still with him broke my heart.

I was convinced that Eva's husband had trapped her in the mirror but it turns out she's another particle accelerator meta. I am glad that Iris is getting to interact with another woman but if Eva is supposed to be the new Mirror Master then she's shady.

I didn't miss Cisco and Caitlin Frost. The last few episodes proved that the show can function well enough without them and STAR Labs. Glad to have more Joe and CSI Barry.

 

12 hours ago, phoenics said:

And are we supposed to believe that B&Siri aren't having sex?

This show has become too prudish to mention sex but that's the vibe I am getting. I guess it's good since I could do without a rape by deception plot but I need Barry to realize that isn't Iris.

 

8 hours ago, quarks said:

Given that the Arrowverse's record on

Spoiler

Comics Canon relationships has been, how to put this kindly, rather mixed, you need to give me more than this, show.

 

The Arrowverse doesn't have a great track record with any relationship IMO. They have very few couples I genuinely root for. Whether they are canon in the comics or not it doesn't change anything for me. 

[ottoDbusdriver]

So, for all of Sue's long con on Ralph to work that means that she knew who he was ahead of time, knew that he was looking for her, knew that he had setup trigger alerts on her bank accounts, and knew that it was him at the door when she triggered the bomb (to reinforce the 'threat' from her ex-boyfriend).

Not buying it.

[Lady Calypso]

Well....that was quite an introduction to Sue. I'll admit that, for the first half of the episode, I really was liking Sue. I was liking her interactions with Ralph and there was a moment where I genuinely thought that they had some really great chemistry.

But then they kind of dragged out the quirky Sue, and then revealed her to be a liar and a thief, and then they had her fight scene and I thought "Oh, well that's one way to turn me off of Sue." I'll try to give her another chance, but I think they went too far with how badass she was. It's not like she's a bad character, per say. It's just...a bit complicated and I didn't really end the episode wanting Ralph to be with her. 

Iris and Eva's scenes were great. Poor Eva, having been stuck alone for six years. I can only imagine how isolating that was for her. I wouldn't blame her if she totally lost her mind. But I'm glad Iris got some interactions with her. But I do wonder how they're going to get out. I hope it's relatively soon, because as much fun as I'm having with Siri, it sucks to see Barry being played.

That being said, I do think Barry knows something is up. Siri moving away every time he went in for a kiss made it blatantly clear. Not that I ever expect him to realize immediately that this is Siri, but I'd hope that he would do some investigating. At least Grant Gustin has been playing Barry as suspicious enough. He's not totally comfortable and thinking that nothing is wrong; he may not know the exact reason, but at least we've had Barry look suspicious a couple of times. Which shows that Siri is not doing a very good job at portraying Iris if she can't muster up some actual kisses (which is good for us, btw, because Barry shouldn't be kissing an imposter clone).

I have some theories on what Siri wants the Mirror Gun for. It obviously has to do with the Mirror World, but I'm not sure whether it's her wanting to destroy it or her wanting to find a way to manipulate the Mirror World to her advantage.

We don't typically get a whole lot of Candice/Tom interactions onscreen so seeing Nash and Siri get to interact for a scene was fun. 

[marketdoctor]

I briefly wondered if Sue was actually a mirror-world Sue, and there's a "real Sue" who's similar but really nice.  Probably not.  I liked how the actress did what she could with a character with a lot of comic back-story.  That said, I get the Anne Hathaway-Catwoman comparisons.

 

Quote

That being said, I do think Barry knows something is up. Siri moving away every time he went in for a kiss made it blatantly clear. Not that I ever expect him to realize immediately that this is Siri, but I'd hope that he would do some investigating.

 

I liked that, both from the way CP played it, and the way it made the whole "dating an imposter" less icky--and also, Barry might be MORE suspicious than he's letting on, because he knows his world has shapeshifters, clones, etc., and usually it's better to play along until you find their agenda.  That would explain why he was immediately against Siri having the mirror gun, beyond the danger of creating another Snart.  It might also explain that it's what gave Siri away to Barry:  he suspected, so he gave her a story about how they're waiting to have a kid or something, and she went with it instead of remembering Iris was on the pill or really wanted kids or had forgotten their, you know, daughter from last season, or something.

 

 

 

[adora721]

8 hours ago, Trini said:

So Siri is a 'clone'

So, who then pulled Iris into the mirror world? It wasn't Eva as I had originally thought (or perhaps we'll find out it was Eva inadvertently pulling Iris in). And Eva claims to have been alone all this time. Why is there no Eva clone in the real world? Is the mirror itself a sentient entity that pulled Iris in, but keeps Eva from getting out? How would that reconcile with Eva having some control over the mirror? "Curioser and curioser!"

 

5 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

Let's say different demographics and sensibilities... And man they Luuuuuuvvvvvv Sue... Thinking she's the type of lady this show has been missing... 

Let that fandom enjoy their Sue. As long as Sue doesn't try to murder Iris or steal Iris' screen time, I'm cool with her. Plus, it's nice that there is more than one White woman on the show who has the potential to be actual look-each other-in-the-eyes-and-speak-directly-to friends with Iris, the leading lady. Hopefully, the haters will get off of Iris bashing (one can dream).

[jmonique]

 

13 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

What was up with all the camera closeups and smirks with Smug Dearborn??  Also her eyes getting all buggy.. And dear show I don't care if Smug Dearborn is also trying to fight Blackhole... We don't need or want her... Or.. If you really wanna put Sue and Ralph out there.. Give em their own show so I don't have to watch it 

I can't tell you how much I love that nickname.

Smug Dearborn was already too much, but when she whipped out her Black Widow costume I was officially over her.

[quarks]

3 hours ago, Starry said:

The Arrowverse doesn't have a great track record with any relationship IMO. They have very few couples I genuinely root for. Whether they are canon in the comics or not it doesn't change anything for me. 

I'd disagree with that, although the better relationships have, admittedly, tended to be the secondary ones - for instance, Joe and Cecile on Flash. 

[HerkyJerky]

What did Sue say to Ralph when he asked her, "Was any of it true?" when she locked him up in the vault?

[UNOSEZ]

44 minutes ago, HerkyJerky said:

What did Sue say to Ralph when he asked her, "Was any of it true?" when she locked him up in the vault?

Yes... And No

[HerkyJerky]

Thanks, UNOSEZ!  Ok, that makes sense now.

[scarynikki12]

Information from the comics needs to be tagged as spoilers in the episode threads since we don't yet know what will or won't make it onto the show. This has been a Flash forum rule since 2014 so please remember it when you post. If you want to ask questions about the Flash comics to better understand the characters and stories it needs to happen here.

[Ann Mack]

8 hours ago, adora721 said:

So, who then pulled Iris into the mirror world? It wasn't Eva as I had originally thought (or perhaps we'll find out it was Eva inadvertently pulling Iris in). And Eva claims to have been alone all this time. Why is there no Eva clone in the real world? Is the mirror itself a sentient entity that pulled Iris in, but keeps Eva from getting out? How would that reconcile with Eva having some control over the mirror? "Curioser and curioser!"

 

Let that fandom enjoy their Sue. As long as Sue doesn't try to murder Iris or steal Iris' screen time, I'm cool with her. Plus, it's nice that there is more than one White woman on the show who has the potential to be actual look-each other-in-the-eyes-and-speak-directly-to friends with Iris, the leading lady. Hopefully, the haters will get off of Iris bashing (one can dream).

Unfortunately IMO they won't stop bashing Iris they will just want her replaced. Sadly, I do feel as though from ALL the talk Eric is doing the network may be also trying to "Sleepy Hollow" their "Leading Lady" and bring what as stated above a certain fraction of a certain type of gender & of the Caucasian persuasion both male and female may want which is a white power romantic couple that "THEY" can see themselves in. Everyone knows Iris is Barry's endgame that however doesn't mean she has to always be seen. The whole introduction of Sue was catered to a specific audience again IMO. Hopefully, I'll get proven wrong but if Sue starts to get more screen time and development in 1/2 a season when it took 6 seasons for Iris to finally get to her journalism arc then not only will I be able to see the OBVIOUS I think a lot more people and fans of Candice/Iris and of the overall WestAllen relationship will too!

Edited February 20, 2020 by Ann Mack

[Auror]

I happen to adore Candice/Iris and WestAllen. But I also would love to see Sue and Ralph work out too. Iris could use more women friends. Would love Iris and Sue to get close, see WestAllen and Ralph/Sue go on double dates. 

Spoiler

In the Comics, WestAllen and Ralph/Sue have similar dynamics. I think that’s why I love them both so much. It’s also why I know Sue will evolve in the upcoming episodes and settle in with her real personality.

Edited February 20, 2020 by Auror

[UNOSEZ]

2 hours ago, Ann Mack said:

both male and female may want which is a white power romantic couple that "THEY" can see themselves in. Everyone knows Iris is Barry's endgame that however doesn't mean she has to always be seen. The whole introduction of Sue was catered to a specific audience again IMO.

Well.. If You've seen what I've been writing you know where i stand on this... My fear is exactly that... The show catering to some fans will have the canonical romance of sue/ Ralph take up the screentime that the ridiculously chase West-Allen do now... And with Smug Dearborn aka CatWidow she can slide into Star Labs stuff and field stuff while Iris and the League of extraordinary melanated ladies all cram into the citizen scenes... I hope we are all wrong and this isn't an Abby/Katrina situation.. Which on my last re-binge of sleepy hollow is even worse the 2nd time around cuz I knew it was coming and what it meant smh

[Trini]

1 hour ago, UNOSEZ said:

Well.. If You've seen what I've been writing you know where i stand on this... My fear is exactly that... The show catering to some fans will have the canonical romance of sue/ Ralph take up the screentime that the ridiculously chase West-Allen do now...

Answering in the Relationships thread

 

....

[quarks]

I wouldn't say Flash is trying to replace Iris/Candice Patton this season. Yeah, as usual, she was pretty much left out of the crossover episodes (speaking as someone who likes Caitlin/Danielle Panabaker, I'm still at a complete loss to understand why Caitlin and not Iris was in the Legends of Tomorrow episode, especially after all of that "Barry is the Paragon of Love!" stuff) and I still think she should have been at Oliver's funeral over on Arrow. So the situation isn't ideal.

But that said, this season is finally giving Iris some independent plots, including letting her investigate crimes, a supporting cast mostly focused on her (with occasional scenes with Cisco and Caitlin), and a current storyline that's showcasing just how good Candice Patton really is. And in this episode, I think that even Siri was presented as more sympathetic and likeable than Sue, even with Siri running around trying to steal mirror guns and asking Nash to lie to Barry. Even leaving aside Sue double-crossing Ralph, she's been leaving her parents upset and frantic for months for....why, exactly? Until/unless Sue's parents are revealed as villains, this doesn't exactly seem to be the sort of thing designed to get the audience to cheer on Sue. Not to mention that Sue started out denigrating and insulting Ralph. Even Siri took a moment to listen to/reassure Ralph.

Flash does not exactly have the best track record when it comes to Iris and Candice Patton, so I'm not expecting any of this to continue, but for right now I don't see any signs that Flash is trying to replace her.

[adora721]

Now, I'm wondering if Siri is the mirror clone of Eva (Mave, Meva, or just MirrorEva 😀?) that pulled Iris into the Mirror world. Meva then assumed the identity of the person she touched (Iris) (kinda like how Ralph can morph into other people) leaving the more docile, weaker Eva trapped. This presumes that touching Iris enabled Meva to absorb Iris' memories, too.

I just find it interesting that Eva had an explanation for the clone's existance and Siri seems to be even more zealous than Iris about taking down Eva's husband and Black Hole. Remember Eva said that she watched while her husband mourned and moved on from her. Perhaps Eva also watched as her husband turned their company into a crime organization and Meva is getting justice (or revenge) for that.

Edited February 21, 2020 by adora721

[BeautifulFlower]

50 minutes ago, quarks said:

I wouldn't say Flash is trying to replace Iris/Candice Patton this season. Yeah, as usual, she was pretty much left out of the crossover episodes (speaking as someone who likes Caitlin/Danielle Panabaker, I'm still at a complete loss to understand why Caitlin and not Iris was in the Legends of Tomorrow episode, especially after all of that "Barry is the Paragon of Love!" stuff) and I still think she should have been at Oliver's funeral over on Arrow. So the situation isn't ideal.

But that said, this season is finally giving Iris some independent plots, including letting her investigate crimes, a supporting cast mostly focused on her (with occasional scenes with Cisco and Caitlin), and a current storyline that's showcasing just how good Candice Patton really is. And in this episode, I think that even Siri was presented as more sympathetic and likeable than Sue, even with Siri running around trying to steal mirror guns and asking Nash to lie to Barry. Even leaving aside Sue double-crossing Ralph, she's been leaving her parents upset and frantic for months for....why, exactly? Until/unless Sue's parents are revealed as villains, this doesn't exactly seem to be the sort of thing designed to get the audience to cheer on Sue. Not to mention that Sue started out denigrating and insulting Ralph. Even Siri took a moment to listen to/reassure Ralph.

Flash does not exactly have the best track record when it comes to Iris and Candice Patton, so I'm not expecting any of this to continue, but for right now I don't see any signs that Flash is trying to replace her.

Where is this talk about Iris getting replaced this season? How did this speculation even start?

[UNOSEZ]

55 minutes ago, quarks said:

wouldn't say Flash is trying to replace Iris/Candice Patton this season

Replace probably wasn't the right term for what I was trying to convey... A subsection of the fandom( can't speak for actual size)  that's vocal on the Interwebs have never liked Iris and still complain about her now for "reasons" I felt initially the showrunners and writers looked to get those folks on board with Caitlin Snow's character.. And she's kept a different subset around.. One that nay have bolted from the show if Caitlin was an  older woman... Because "something" about Iris being the female lead and Love interest didn't "click" generally the complaint was " no chemistry" or that theyre "basically siblings"... The powers tried again with Killer Frost. Not really sure if its successful yet... Smug Dearborn ( just from what I've perused online... From the same ppl who couldn't and can't stand Iris)  has been a hit.. Historically that subsection of fandom gets catered to way more often than the ones who are the most ardent Iris supporters.  So my fear is that to capitalize on Smug Dearborn's potential.. Others will have to suffer... And it can't be the flash.. So even if I don't think it'll just be a zero sum game that Iris' loss is Smug's gain... It may be the characters around Iris.  Which indirectly limits what Iris can do.. Not surprisingly the subset that love Smug and aren't fans of Iris.. Also aren't big on Allegra, Cecile, Kamilla or any plot to do with The citizen... I hope I'm wrong.. But I've been burned before, its still a business and even if the powers have good intentions.. Don't be shocked if Smug pops up at the citizen and co-chairs some meetings is all

[DearEvette]

On 2/19/2020 at 12:14 AM, Ann Mack said:

I seriously disliked the Sue character. Maybe she will grow on me later but this was too much, too soon for the first encounter. It was like some teenage boys wet dream of how they would build a girl if "Weird Science" was real or if they got a chance to revise with a 2.0 update.

This was my reaction towards her as well.  She is total paint-by-numbers get a reaction from fandom to immediately anoint her as a 'Badass' --  no character development necessary. I feel like  I was supposed to fall into immediate badass love with Sue.  I didn't.  Honestly, I found the whole Sue thing a complete distraction.  I was engrossed by the Siri story-line.  Which is a shame because I had been looking forward to the intro of Sue,

I liked Eva 1,000x more than I did Sue. Altho... I don't want to be suspicious of Eva but I have questions...

On 2/19/2020 at 11:34 AM, adora721 said:

Why is there no Eva clone in the real world? Is the mirror itself a sentient entity that pulled Iris in, but keeps Eva from getting out? How would that reconcile with Eva having some control over the mirror? "Curioser and curioser!"

Yeah, these.  Mostly about why there is no Mirror  Eva running around in our world.  The most obvious explanation is that there is is something about Eva's meta ability that keeps her intact inside the mirror while Iris isn't supposed to be there so some part of Iris willed herself out, thus making Siri.

Also will Iris take everything Eva says as gospel (... I understand why she would at first because Eva is so convincing...) or will Iris want to go out and about into Mirror Dimension and independently corroborate what Eva said was true?  For all Iris knows, there is only that room that they are in.

[UNOSEZ]

43 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

For all Iris knows, there is only that room that they are in.

I just want iris to ask one of those common sense questions that never really get asked on these shows... Like what do you eat?  Why are you in heels?  Are there any sweats laying around etc... 

[phoenics]

5 hours ago, adora721 said:

Now, I'm wondering if Siri is the mirror clone of Eva (Mave, Meva, or just MirrorEva 😀?) that pulled Iris into the Mirror world. Meva then assumed the identity of the person she touched (Iris) (kinda like how Ralph can morph into other people) leaving the more docile, weaker Eva trapped. This presumes that touching Iris enabled Meva to absorb Iris' memories, too.

I just find it interesting that Eva had an explanation for the clone's existance and Siri seems to be even more zealous than Iris about taking down Eva's husband and Black Hole. Remember Eva said that she watched while her husband mourned and moved on from her. Perhaps Eva also watched as her husband turned their company into a crime organization and Meva is getting justice (or revenge) for that.

I've been thinking about that a lot too.  There was something shady that Eva said when she was explaining Siri - it just ... didn't ring true to me.  "A fractal variable created by the mirror... a duplicate of you..." 

I just I dunno... clearly other people saw the mirror after Eva was pulled through it when the accelerator blew up.  Because there was a sheet over it - that leads me to believe that something like this has happened before?  And if so, to whom? 

I just don't believe it's as simple as what Eva said and I feel like Siri has a motive that is connected to Eva.

ETA:  At least I'm feeling more engaged in the show and not raging over how shabbily Iris is being treated like in 6A.  But a part of me still worries about what happens with Iris when she gets out of the mirror - and if Barry hasn't figured out that Siri isn't Iris by then and Iris has to get her own damn self out of the mirror because Barry just never figured it out - how damaging would THAT be to a marriage.

Edited February 21, 2020 by phoenics

[Trini]

If anyone wanted a better look at Sue's catwomansuit:

 

[BaggythePanther]

The actress that plays Sue seems fine and I think she and Ralph have decent chemistry. But there was something about her that was very annoying. It was like the show was trying too hard to make Sue interesting and they even had to nerf Ralph’s powers to make her look better. Unpopular opinion, but I found Sue more interesting when it was revealed she was playing Ralph and planned to steal the diamond for herself. Most of the audience knows where the Sue/Ralph story is going, so I expected they’d get straight to it. With this twist it’ll take some work for it to be believable

Spoiler

they get married like in the comics.

Let’s see if they pull it off.

I know people are worried about how long it’s taking Barry to figure out that he isn’t with the real Iris. But every time he starts to get really suspicious, Joe convinces Barry nothing is wrong. It will have to get to a point where Barry trusts his instincts more than Joe’s advice.

 I liked Iris’s interactions with Eva, but I kept waiting for her to ask the obvious questions, like why there isn’t a mirror version of Eva. Though Iris is still probably out of sorts. I hope she isn’t in there for too long, but I worry that even if Barry figures it out soon, they’ll still be separated most of this half of the season.

 I didn’t think of this until I saw it mentioned on another site, but we’ve seen a lot more of Barry these past few episodes. Barry being a CSI, a husband, a friend. I know the show is called The Flash but I’ve enjoyed seeing Barry get out of STAR Labs and do other things.

Edited February 22, 2020 by BaggythePanther

[Featherhat]

I thought Sue was OK. Definitely strong "I'm a precious and bad ass, aren't I awesome" but that is the way so many new female characters get written and acted in the Arrowverse, the male ones too. It's a short hand so you know the type of character they are. And she matches up well with Ralph "I'm my own best partner" Dibney. And a lot of that was an act to make the reveal shocking. 

There's absolutely no reason to think she'll replace or take over Iris's screentime especially in a string of episodes where CP is playing two versions of Iris and heavily involved in the A story and TC. Ralph didn't even appear in the two episodes before this one. They made a big deal of her this episode because she's Comics and romance teasing always gets some buzz. She might end up with some more screentime than other supporting characters but so will the other big new character, Eva. And for Sue if that happens it will probably be to do with the fact that they connected her to the BH storyline, not that they want to give racist fans a boost. The show has been fine with no white/white pairings for years. And even then, apart from ship stall Patty the rest were very secondary. They could have brought her in before this if that was a priority for them.

I do wish Iris had asked more questions but that always happens with storylines like this. Especially the survival ones like eating and the obvious one like "why did I get a Siri and you didn't?" They never seem to ask the former on these types of shows and the latter is probably because it's something they don't want to reveal yet. All can be covered with "Iris was freaking out and determined to get back home asap".

I liked Efrat Dor as Eva. There's definitely more there than meets the eye and Iris shouldn't trust her clearly but she was good as a person driven insane by being trapped alone and watching the world go on without her.  

Edited February 22, 2020 by Featherhat

[Starry]

The SirI explanation didn't make sense to me either. Eva was so sure of what she was saying but before Iris joined her she was the only person trapped in there and the mirror did not create an Eva clone. But there's an Iris duplicate. And Eva has a convenient explanation for that. Something doesn't add up.

Plus, in the flashback we see Eva get sucked into the mirror. But Iris was grabbed by a pair of hands and dragged in there. Was it Eva who grabbed her? We are being told she's been in there all alone.

I don't think Barry will never figure it out. I believe that shot of him looking up at the mirror was put in there for a reason. If he doesn't use his brain to realize SirI is a fake there's a chance Iris will be able to communicate with him through the mirror. WestAllen are written as soulmates and Iris being able to reach out to Barry from another dimension sounds like something super romantic the show would explore. I think up until now SirI has had a good explanation for her shifty behavior but everything changed the minute Barry gave her the Mirror Gun and made a sweet speech about trust and she was still super cold towards him. That isn't the Iris Barry knows and we see him be sad about her attitude but I worry that the show will not go back to it anytime soon because they have to spend time on other Barry plots. This storyline should be ongoing IMO.

And I don't care about Iris saving herself with no help from anyone. I don't have much hope because the show has made it a point to reiterate that women are not damsels in distress for two episodes in a row. They probably consider Barry saving Iris once in a blue moon an insult to feminism. But since this is not just about Iris but it's about exploring another dimension I think they want Barry to enter the Mirrorverse. I might have to read up more on it but I think that in the comics

Spoiler

Flash is one of the few characters aside from Mirror Master who can enter and exit the Mirrorverse.

 

[Trini]

22 hours ago, BaggythePanther said:

 I didn’t think of this until I saw it mentioned on another site, but we’ve seen a lot more of Barry these past few episodes. Barry being a CSI, a husband, a friend. I know the show is called The Flash but I’ve enjoyed seeing Barry get out of STAR Labs and do other things.

 

15 hours ago, Starry said:

I don't think Barry will never figure it out. I believe that shot of him looking up at the mirror was put in there for a reason. If he doesn't use his brain to realize SirI is a fake there's a chance Iris will be able to communicate with him through the mirror. WestAllen are written as soulmates and Iris being able to reach out to Barry from another dimension sounds like something super romantic the show would explore.

 

I'm also glad that remembered Barry has an actual job, and gave him some advice scenes with Joe. But I also need him figuring this out to be his story -- don't fumble the ball, Wallace!

[Trini]

Re-watch thoughts:

I don't care AT ALL about whatever is going on with Wells #802, but the Starchives scene was kinda funny with the two liars lying to each other. Also hilarious was Harry's diary (which shouldn't exist?) helpfully labelled in big, gold lettering. I get why  the props dept. did that, but it was kinda silly.

So I liked Sue's personality, and I thought she worked well with Ralph; they were fun together. What soured me on her was the revelation that she'd been lying the whole time, and boasted about it. Now she's just untrustworthy. And while I'm sure she'll end up on the good side, we don't really know her goals and motivations are right now. She knows Esperanza - so was (or is) she a part of Black Hole?

I didn't like that they had to depower/beat up Ralph just to make Sue look good. Like, he's bulletproof -- punches, etc. from a regular human shouldn't really phase him. Him getting blasted by Ultraviolet made sense; but then for no reason she doesn't use her powers against Sue.

And the Flash writers really have to stop using the tired 'can't find the person we're looking for because they apparently vanished into thin air, even though they were just here' excuse for letting perps get away (for plot reasons). Especially when we've got a lead character that can look "everywhere" in minutes.

Good that Barry is noticing things are off with Mirror Iris. Too bad Joe is (unknowingly) pushing him to trust her more. A mole in CCPD? This is a good way to bring in Joe organically. It's really interesting how they're giving us several angles on Black Hole. I like that the threat so far isn't just one person.

So far I think that Eva is sincere; however, there are so many unanswered questions. Only now she realizes her connection to/control of the mirror? Who pulled Iris into the mirror in the first place?

And I thought it was an interesting detail that both Siri and Eva were wearing similar shades of green.... (ETA: Comics note:)

Spoiler

The main colors for Mirror Master in the comics are green and yellow/orange.

 

Edited February 23, 2020 by Trini
typos and grammar everywhere!